A Modest Proposal Regarding OOC Coordination

[Synthesis]

Personally, I find that actually roleplaying with people you know OOCly is a bit like moving in with a girlfriend who you know isn't long-term relationship material.  I mean, sure, there's a lot of, "Haha, wouldn't it be funny if we did <x, y, or z>? We would own all!" but when it comes down to it, I kind of consciously avoid it, because Zalanthas is a really nasty fucking place, and sometimes shit that a man's gotta do IC is the kind of stuff that would get a motherfucker real friendless, real quick in real life.  It's much easier to be a cold-hearted douche when you're operating on the assumption that your target is just some fuckin' noob.

[Reiteration]

I like the first idea, I want to be one of the nine undead sorcerer minions.

[Nyr]

I believe having opinion that will not change regardless of evidence (other than yes men's) is more Staff's job. You are the snarkiest poster on the GDB also. As soon as I have looked up the karma chart I will indeed continue discussion.

I can understand why you'd have the sentiment about me being the snarkiest poster on the GDB.  As a person used to potluck and food (mmm, food!), I am happy to pass around whatever is given to me.  When you start out with this position, after having derailed a thread to air out your grievance with something unrelated:

Whatever, I amtired of the bland no conflict stagnant situation. Bring on the murderous gang of buddy warriors or, it would be *Gasp* fun and entertaining. Keep your imaginary RP integrety and bring on some action.

and then this:

More status quo. Enjoy?

I take it that a certain amount of snark has been doled out, and a certain amount should be passed back to the sender.  Sometimes, a bit of snark gets a point across. 
As for your first point, staff do change their opinions on things, and we do change policy--but we generally don't change policy towards less-restrictive ideals on metagaming.  I'll get back to that in a sec.

I am not advocating that the people recruited for a role hare any OOC communication other than the initial approval process.
The talk of OOC coordination and your hatred of it really rings hollow, as every coded clan does it. I am not proposing that anyway. I just don't see why every group is always of a family and why the INITIAL STAFF APPROVED coordination is so difficult.

This would be coordinated by people with karma, who the staff trusts to a degree?

I understand this concept.  Your argument for it, however, is just "it's not this way, so it should be," with "and we can use karma to trust people to do it."  The "it" in this case:  letting people play together in an OOCly created group from the start.  You're describing the Klestions without family ties, which is worse than the Klestions, since they can (I assume) also recruit in-game.

So you say to be the change. Well i would  have to store or suicide. Then I enter the game as a helpless nobody, having to wait on random luck and chance to "be the change". Maye you all enjoy the slow process to becoming a slight danger to anyone of consequence, but I don't.

Yes; no one is suggesting anything other than the way things are presently, though random luck and chance have little to do with roleplaying your way into leadership.

As for my opinion on stagnation? Where is any conflict that is anything but petty squabbling?

In the game.  You'd have to find out IC.  You wouldn't have to look very far. 

Everyone says to be the change, but if you do anything to break up the hand holding festival, you'll get slapped down from on high.

You won't.  What you say is open-ended and nonspecific, though.

Maybe if players had groups that the Houses could target, it would liven things up.

They have and they have been targeted in the past, too. 

If some new group popped up my first thought would be to be curious not piss myself wondering how they are going to cheat or affect the stale and mighty houses.

That's not our thought either, though it would be our first thought if a new group popped up entirely inhabited by players that coordinated the role OOCly in advance, even with this proposed system. 

If you say how bad it would make things I propose it can hardly get worse. I am not interested in restriction I am in seeing peoplehave a chance to try things and have fun. That seems like the thing no one cares about

It can get worse. 

To address the rest of the last quote (and to go back to metagaming):

We don't have policies on things to prevent people from having fun.  Over time, we've learned things, and we restrict some things because experience has taught us that these restrictions are better and allow more people to have fun without getting screwed over by someone that metagames our system.  Sure, players still try to coordinate things OOCly and against the spirit and policies of the game, but we're not going to say "you know what?  They're going to do it anyway, so let's just remove these restrictions and any punishments on violating them." 

We have a better game because of these restrictions.

[Titania]

I don't understand why a good role has to take so long and be such a grueling experience? You built yourself up from nothing and you have to do it every time? I would think that starts to get old after a while?

I really don't see how having a little flexibility and trust in the players would cause an apocalypse. But if everyone wants to stick their neck under the staff's jackboots and thank them for it, so be it.


Nyr you are snarky period. Do not pretend that anyone provokes you. If you were not a member of the staff I am confident you would be banned from the gdb.

[Maziel]

I don't understand why a good role has to take so long and be such a grueling experience? You built yourself up from nothing and you have to do it every time? I would think that starts to get old after a while?

It makes it meaningful when you get somewhere. What is a reward without effort?

[X-D]

That is actually one of the problems, considering it reward.

I actually agree with the OP on that one point. Other RPI have it so you can start with a PC with advanced skills if you wish to spend the "karma" for it.

Myself, I have been over any type of enjoyment of "the grind" For around 8 years. I freely admit that I skill my PCs up as fast as codedly possible so I can move along to the important stuff, Roleplaying with you all, plotting etc.

I know I can take any PC and move it from zero to uber in an amount of time that is silly low, And of course get yelled at by staff for doing something that I feel I really should not have to do any more...go figure.

But anyway, here is my idea on that note.

Have it so somebody can start with a skill advanced PC, but they actually have to SPEND the karma for it. As in, Hey, you want a human warrior starting with all skills at least JM, fine, you lose 2 karma..better hope he lasts a while.

[Cutthroat]

I really don't see how having a little flexibility and trust in the players would cause an apocalypse. But if everyone wants to stick their neck under the staff's jackboots and thank them for it, so be it.

No one here is saying that your idea would break the game, and no one here is thanking staff for any oppressive game rules. The fact of the matter is that your idea is unpopular, so stop attacking those who disagree and instead put something forward against the counterarguments they proposed.

Did you see my last post? You could start up a group around a family if you're willing to do IC recruiting for employees of the family. No rules are stopping you from doing so, in fact. Would you tell me how that isn't a fair compromise between what you're asking for and what already exists?

Do you realize that there are some shops, wagons, and other constructions that players and their PCs have worked for, and eventually received... and that those players would be slighted if someone with high enough karma was able to gain these special things from the start?

Or that the idea of a character starting with increased skills has been proposed several times, and that it was decided that special apps are the fairest way to dole out bonuses on a case by case basis?

If there's anything that this game, and those similar to it, depend on its players having, it's the understanding that some semblance of delayed gratification needs to be practiced. No one starts off with everything they need to be successful, not even nobles and templars. It takes effort, and yes, as Maziel said, that's what makes the reward worth it.

[Cutthroat]

Myself, I have been over any type of enjoyment of "the grind" For around 8 years. I freely admit that I skill my PCs up as fast as codedly possible so I can move along to the important stuff, Roleplaying with you all, plotting etc.

I know I can take any PC and move it from zero to uber in an amount of time that is silly low, And of course get yelled at by staff for doing something that I feel I really should not have to do any more...go figure.

Yep, if newbies have to follow the roleplaying tip in help faq_9, veterans do too.

But anyway, here is my idea on that note.

Have it so somebody can start with a skill advanced PC, but they actually have to SPEND the karma for it. As in, Hey, you want a human warrior starting with all skills at least JM, fine, you lose 2 karma..better hope he lasts a while.

SoI has something similar to this, but as far as I know, those PCs also start in clanned roles. After all, it makes sense for the Captain of the Orc Killing Army (or whatever) to have increased skills. But to have something like that in Armageddon, you need to have some compelling reason for the skills to be as high as you request. That's basically the purpose of a Special Application, or some sponsored roles where boosts might be appropriate.

[Nyr]

Nyr you are snarky period. Do not pretend that anyone provokes you. If you were not a member of the staff I am confident you would be banned from the gdb.

Be careful; there's only so much snark we'll handle before we consider it trolling staff.  Then the jackboots come out.

[Titania]

Nyr you are snarky period. Do not pretend that anyone provokes you. If you were not a member of the staff I am confident you would be banned from the gdb.

Be careful; there's only so much snark we'll handle before we consider it trolling staff.  Then the jackboots come out.

Do what you gotta do.

[Maziel]

 

[Adhira]

This thread seems to have diverged from a discussion about OOC formation of groups to commentary on the karma system.  Both are valid discussions.  The formation of OOC groups, as already expressed by Nyr, is not something that we are willing to compromise on.

The discussion on karma and getting over the grind is something that has been discussed many times by both staff and players.  Staff recognise that there are some things we can do better and we have a number of ideas that we think will greatly enhance the way character generation and karma is used for Arm 2.  We have also been discussing different methods and alterations for Arm 1 for several months at Producer level, and now at general staff level. You may find in the coming months that some changes occur, and we hope that they will help inject a new dimension to character generation.

It seems that the term 'snarkiness' is being thrown about in this thread.  I suggest that if people want to be treated with respect they give others the same respect.  Attacking people who disagree with you or will not bend to your will isn't the way to go and will result in the thread being locked.

[Synthesis]

I kinda like the grind, but I suppose I'm easily amused like that.  I still get little giggles when I make something splatter blood all over the place.

[Adhira]

I kinda like the grind, but I suppose I'm easily amused like that.  I still get little giggles when I make something splatter blood all over the place.

It's the little things.

[lepxii]

My 2 'sids:

1. Karma is, if at all, used too much rather than too little. Achieving/losing karma is rather arbitrary and is dependent on a multitude of factors that are beyond a player's control - it depends who is watching him, when he plays, and so on. Maybe it is a good system for controlling what it does control, but extending it to even more player experience variables is not a good idea.
2. OOC groups suck - they take interesting interactions from inside the game to outside the game. Clans, IMHO, have erred in this direction as well (it seems much of the interesting interactions happen by e-mail/request-tool, because of a multitude of reasons....) - but OOC formed groups are infinitely worst. If you are plotting to overthrow the world (or steal silk from a Kadian) - it is more interesting if it -all- happens IG, and whomever might want to foil your attempt has the chance to do so.
3. Policing OOC groups is hard. Sure, if it is blatant staff will probably catch on, eventually. But it's a hard job.

[jhunter]

It seems that the term 'snarkiness' is being thrown about in this thread.  I suggest that if people want to be treated with respect they give others the same respect.  Attacking people who disagree with you or will not bend to your will isn't the way to go and will result in the thread being locked.

In the other player's defense, I'm also of the opinion that Nyr does spark up the snarkiness from time to time without being provoked to begin with. It's one thing to retaliate it's another to start the fire to begin with. I've learned that you just have to take it or get notes put on your account and banned from the GDB if you aren't willing to sit and take it from a staffer. Nyr is my only truly bad experience with the staff in all my time playing this game.

[Adhira]

We have no issue with how Nyr is moderating the gdb.  It's a task that many staff are unwilling to take on, to the point that some do not even read the gdb and we're happy that Nyr is willing to do so.

[jhunter]

Well, people aren't having issues with Nyr for no reason. *shrug*

[jalden]

What is the official rule on this?

I've co-created a couple of characters where we've mentioned the other player's character as a relative.  This is the closest thread I can find to answering how that process works. Does having a relative always require a special application? A couple years back, a close friend and I special apped characters as fraternal twins. It was clear that they were twins, and we were both specifically told that the special applications were not necessary to play those characters. We were also told that the applications should have been done through the regular app process. So... I'm confused about this.

[wizturbo]

All bickering and snark-tossing aside...  I can't help but feel that I agree with some of the sentiment floating around on the GDB about restrictive policies.  This OOC Coordination policy I honestly could care less about, it seems relatively minor.  It's the greater topic of restrictive policies that concerns me.  Equally concerning is the defensive attitude that the public facing members of the staff seem to take whenever people challenge the status quo by suggesting a change.

After a few years away, I come back and find Armageddon has changed. 

• No new clans or organizations can be officially formed.
• Slave roles are no longer available.  If enslaved, the PC is force stored even if they'd like to play out the role.
• Some cool organizations are gone.  I'd elaborate more, but it may be viewed as IC sensitive. 
• Every sponsered role (and nearly every clan) seems to be mundane only. To the point that I don't even find myself wondering OOCly if any sponsered PC's are secretly anything but mundane. A feeling I often had in the old days and miss greatly.
• The overall 'rank' that PC's can attain seems to be artifically capped, so ascension to things like senior templar, senior merchant house, or noble positions don't seem possible any longer. 

The list goes on and on.  And to me, it's a real shame. One of the beauties of a MUD is that it's small enough to be monitored closely for abuse, and simple enough to be modified and changed with relative ease versus something that has a graphical component.  These policies don't seem to be embracing the strengths of a MUD.

I can tell that each of these decisions were made with care, and were implemented with the absolute best of intentions at reducing abuse or making things easier on staff.  I don't doubt that each change had good reasons behind it.  I just wonder if the cure is worse than the disease.  I wonder if padding the sharp corners of the playground that is Zalanthas ends up making the playground less fun as a result.  It might cut down on whining from those who occasionally get snagged by these 'sharp corners', but in my experience the only time people stop whining about a game is when they no longer play it.

Anyhow...sorry if this is viewed as derailing the OP's topic.  I just see this as the heart of the matter.

[My 2 sids]

 OOC communication is easiest (perhaps even best way) to really hash out a full plot.  And there lies the trouble, Wizturbo has hit the nail on the head -- players directing and creating plots isn't something the Staff really wants. 

There are different ways to lead:  it just seems the current staff is more "stick" than "carrot", rather put on lots of rules to restrict the possibility of a few problems, kind of like the teacher who uses a lot of "whole class punishments" than only targeting the actual people responsible.

Why some snark-type people can't simply say, "While your argument is a good one, we just don't see the MUD going in that direction" instead of pretending like the argument has no merit, I don't know.

[Ocotillo]

You're right: it's much more mature to resolve an argument down to a false choice that leaves your conclusion as the only valid choice.

Personally, I've spent plenty of time in games with lots of "players directing and creating plots," and while sure, parts of it are nifty-keen, I also can appreciate the virtues of the emergent-and-staff-poked model, and recognize the flaws of a model more dependent on OOC interaction. I don't want to commit the same sin I accuse you of, so I'll say it: yes, Armageddon could be different, and better in many ways, if it went more for carrots and player control and OOC coordination and what have you.

But I'll also say, and own this personally rather than try to attribute it to logic, that I really like the way stuff works right now. Playing Arm is peaceful (!) for me because I just have to deal with the login screen and the request tool and hand over my experience to the game and the staff. I haven't really had a bad experience with another player, and the closest to a bad experience I had with staff was one getting mildly grumpy with me when I played a tribal and promptly ran them straight to House employment.

Put sassily: I don't come to Arm to play delicate, unique flowers. I come to play ginka vines. I will happily seize all the blood and brainz staff lets me have and thrive on them, and I'll get by. I realize I seem like I'm a rationalizing kissass, and you're right: I am. That's what the ginka does to survive. And I came here for the challenge, not just the fascinating plots.

[Niamh]

...players directing and creating plots isn't something the Staff really wants. 

This is completely untrue.  We have even switched up our methods of staffing to allow players more freedom to create and direct their own plots.  This is why we do not animate "boss" NPCs to give people "quests" the way that we used to.

[Marshmellow]

I have to disagree with you, My 2 Sids.  I don't think the rules stifle our ability to create plots.  I don't see the need to OOCly communicate to create plots.  To coordinate RPTs, sure, but that can be done through clan forums or through using 'ooc' to communicate with others not in-clan.  We don't need anything else.  The type of OOC coordination we're talking about here, though, is "I'll play a X and you play a Y and we'll hook up and be friends IC!"  That kind of coordination is vile.  It creates insta-loyalty whereas everyone else has to earn loyalty and trust, giving someone a benefit that nobody else has which is wrong and unfair to the rest of the players... or do we want the cliques that develop to be able to do things like the Klestions again?  Sure, they drove plots, but it was unrealistically done.  They were able to, for a time, maintain a strangle-hold on just about everything going on in Tuluk.  A family of about half a dozen people were able to checkmate the two most powerful Chosen houses... who have that many people just to wipe the Chosens' asses... in each house.

[Zoltan]

I mostly like the way things are now. Certain things that happened years ago that don't happen now struck me as fucktarded, so I'm glad for those changes. Having free reign in a clan as a leader is pretty cool too. But like anyone, I have a few gripes of my own.

First, systematically here, things seem to take a little longer to boil on the large-scale without staff animated NPCs urging quests to happen. Sometimes I wish more blatant things would happen just to keep things moving. Then again, it's sort of a two-way street, which leads to my next little gripe...

I'm ever a proponent of Keeping It Real with a character and not being a 'tard just for the sake of a little excitement, but it seems to me that IG the status quo is god. Due to how long it can take to get serious things going, I think that many players are hesitant to endanger their plots or their characters. Then again, some characters strike me as being powerful just for the sake of it, or to keep walking in place. You combine this with the staff's hesitancy to provide a really firm nudge into excitement, and yeah, things can sometimes feel staid. Some of this could be a matter of perception, though, because often super-plots need to be super-sekret, so take that for what it's worth. Still, time and time again, I feel like I've seen so many powerful PCs just maintaining formation. But yeah, hard to blame people considering their playing someone realistically, and all this time has been put into it.

Which brings me to my other relatively little gripe: the grind. The grind has outright killed at least one of my good characters, that is, they became utterly unfun to play. Now, this can be mitigated by doing a spec app, sure, but that requires a damn good concept with a damn good reason for being in the game. Still, I don't like the idea of anyone (including myself) with a chunk of karma getting to just jump in the game as a moderately-skilled (make that super-skilled, in relation to the dozens of other noobs) warrior/assassin/Krathi/whatever. Then again, sometimes I do get a little wistful thinking what it may be like to jump immediately into an old, survivable desert wanderer, or into a mage THAT CAN ACTUALLY BE A MAGE at the start of play. But I tend to view this gripe as more of a personal feeling towards the game than the game's fault. It's really a matter of my own patience, but judging by the amount of people bemoaning, I suppose it's a real issue for the playerbase.