A Modest Proposal Regarding OOC Coordination

[Titania]

For every karma point you have, they should allow you to recruit that many non family member characters for a concept. I think the family only rules just kill a lot of cool ideas. Also spec app for more people.

[Marshmellow]

For every karma point you have, they should allow you to recruit that many non family member characters for a concept. I think the family only rules just kill a lot of cool ideas. Also spec app for more people.

I don't think there's any point where someone should get a leg up in game because they have OOC friends.  Please, no.

[Synthesis]

For every karma point you have, they should allow you to recruit that many non family member characters for a concept. I think the family only rules just kill a lot of cool ideas. Also spec app for more people.

I don't think there's any point where someone should get a leg up in game because they have OOC friends.  Please, no.

On the flip-side, knowing someone OOCly makes it much easier to PK them, because they'll haplessly go places and do things with you that anyone else would be highly wary of.  They'll also do things like "via IM: dude, I'm gonna go walk my dogs for a bit, don't let anyone kill me."  BACKSTAB.  This usually only works once, but if you contact someone you know ICly to do the actual killing, and make it look like you tried to stop it, you could probably get away with it a few times before they catch on.   

Why did everyone just de-friend me? Guys? I was kidding! Look, it's a SMILEY.

[Titania]

For every karma point you have, they should allow you to recruit that many non family member characters for a concept. I think the family only rules just kill a lot of cool ideas. Also spec app for more people.

I don't think there's any point where someone should get a leg up in game because they have OOC friends.  Please, no.

So you are against the karma system?

If it were limited to mundanes, then it would be pretty tame. Much less abusive than what karma now buys you. I just find it stupid that everyone comes into the world friendless. What makes more sense that Bob has two friends or that he controls one of the fundamental forces of the universe with magic or is half giant and semi retarded. Not having two friends! (Apparantly)

[Marauder Moe]

My characters sometimes come into the world with friends.  They hang out together while I'm at work.

[Zoltan]

For every karma point you have, they should allow you to recruit that many non family member characters for a concept. I think the family only rules just kill a lot of cool ideas. Also spec app for more people.

I don't think there's any point where someone should get a leg up in game because they have OOC friends.  Please, no.

So you are against the karma system?

If it were limited to mundanes, then it would be pretty tame. Much less abusive than what karma now buys you. I just find it stupid that everyone comes into the world friendless. What makes more sense that Bob has two friends or that he controls one of the fundamental forces of the universe with magic or is half giant and semi retarded. Not having two friends! (Apparantly)

Networks of OOCly arranged relationships do more damage to the gameworld and are harder to detect and correct than the twinkiest of mages. Such networking is a pet peeve of mine, but I'm probably not going to be able to give you a satisfactory reason as to why I think they're a Bad Thing. The current family-apping system is a good compromise on the matter, I think, because the staff can easily review it all and players can still have that extra bit of depth in their character creation.

Whoa, I just looked at the thread title and this is a major derail. Er, on topic... Actually, I can't think of anything. 

My characters sometimes come into the world with friends.  They hang out together while I'm at work.

Heh, there you go. That's how some of my background things tend to work out. Not every character grew up in UTTER ISOLATION before spawning in the Gaj. An elegant way of Keeping It Real ICly.

[Titania]

Make them follow the same rules as the family process for all I care. I am not saying they are friends, just that they accept applications for a few roles for a concept initially. The people in charge would have karma and it'd be staff approved. Whatever, I amtired of the bland no conflict stagnant situation. Bring on the murderous gang of buddy warriors or, it would be *Gasp* fun and entertaining. Keep your imaginary RP integrety and bring on some action.

[Marauder Moe]

I think the idea is that the murderous gang of buddy warriors should be formed in-character and in-game.

[Zoltan]

A murderous gang of buddy warriors can be formed IG, through strictly IC means, and it has been done before. If people want more violent action, they need to make it happen. Sometimes negotiation and cooperation make -much- more sense to a character, however.

And Moe basically beat me to it.

[Akaramu]

The one situation I can think of where this would make sense, outside of a family group, is for a pimp with several whores. Sure, whores can be recruited IC - in theory. But if no one happens to play them at the time, the concept is doomed to fail.

Actually, I can think of another... a theatre or musical group. Actors and musicians are not played that often, singers / dancers are more common by far.

I would not necessarily see them as buddies... a whore could be plotting to kill her pimp, the musicians might not get along and struggle with splitup arguments, just like many RL bands do.

[Marauder Moe]

I've seen at least one successful pimp.

I haven't seen theater groups, but it seems like it'd be a reasonable thing in Tuluk at least.


Character's don't necessarily have to start out as whores and actors to become such, though.  You just have to find some that are willing to do the deed and figure out how to make it profitable for them to do so (and preferably you as well).

[Nyr]

We're definitely not going to do that. 

Please stay on topic:  this is about race questions, not OOC coordination.

[Titania]

More status quo. Enjoy?

[Nyr]

Here, it is now in its own thread.

If you'd like, I can provide a lengthier response to your idea, but it doesn't seem as though you're open to anything but capitulation and a change.

edit to add:  if you do want to discuss it though I'm more than happy to participate.  I gathered that from things like "more status quo, enjoy" and "keep your imaginary RP integrity," "bring on some action," and "bland no conflict stagnant situation," you were either operating under assumptions that aren't true, or have a very strong opinion that you do not want to have changed.

[HavokBlue]

I see why staff are opposed to this idea, on one hand, but on the other, it opens up a lot of possibilities for role ideas. On top of that, I think people who want to network things OOCly where they shouldn't be will do/do it anyway.

[Titania]

Here, it is now in its own thread.

If you'd like, I can provide a lengthier response to your idea, but it doesn't seem as though you're open to anything but capitulation and a change.

edit to add:  if you do want to discuss it though I'm more than happy to participate.  I gathered that from things like "more status quo, enjoy" and "keep your imaginary RP integrity," "bring on some action," and "bland no conflict stagnant situation," you were either operating under assumptions that aren't true, or have a very strong opinion that you do not want to have changed.

I believe having opinion that will not change regardless of evidence (other than yes men's) is more Staff's job. You are the snarkiest poster on the GDB also. As soon as I have looked up the karma chart I will indeed continue discussion.

[valeria]

Just because people can and do do it anyway doesn't necessarily mean that it should be supported.

One of the reasons I really enjoy playing Arm is because of the relative lack of OOC coordination.  I've played on MUDs that either openly allow or don't discourage OOC coordination for players and roles, and from what I've seen, it leads to cliquishness.

[Maziel]

I believe having opinion that will not change regardless of evidence (other than yes men's) is more Staff's job. You are the snarkiest poster on the GDB also. As soon as I have looked up the karma chart I will indeed continue discussion.

Edit: I take it back, I don't think I know where you're coming from.

Calm down!

I think I can kind of see where you're coming from, but I also feel like I must be missing something.

If you're in a position where you know someone well who plays Armageddon, it wouldn't surprise me if this came up in a conversation, "We should totally meet up and do x kind of stuff together! We'd be the most badass x doers ever!" This is especially true if you introduced someone into the game, or were the one introduced. It's far simpler to at least mention that you know each other in your backgrounds instead of trying to come up with why the two of you are going to x together.  Otherwise, the OOC friendship makes the IC skepticism both characters would be feeling hard to roleplay correctly. Plus, if you enjoy talking about the game a lot with them, then it's a lot simpler if your characters know the same things. That way accidentally giving away sensitive IC information isn't really an issue. I've really only this with my older brother, which strangely seems to be happening less now that we're living together, and it seems to work out okay.

However, there was an instance where I tried getting both of my brothers to play with me at my moms house. Everyone but my little brother got killed by raptor's. He didn't even seem to enjoy the game too much and hasn't played since.   Maybe killing us was a staff's way of saying grouping the way we were isn't okay. Or maybe they were just trying to provide us with entertainment and we simply sucked. Probably the latter.

I'm completely against having a large group of warriors getting together before they get in game, though. I can see this to leading to a bunch of OOC clique's.

[Titania]

I am not advocating that the people recruited for a role hare any OOC communication other than the initial approval process.
The talk of OOC coordination and your hatred of it really rings hollow, as every coded clan does it. I am not proposing that anyway. I just don't see why every group is always of a family and why the INITIAL STAFF APPROVED coordination is so difficult.

This would be coordinated by people with karma, who the staff trusts to a degree?

So you say to be the change. Well i would  have to store or suicide. Then I enter the game as a helpless nobody, having to wait on random luck and chance to "be the change". Maye you all enjoy the slow process to becoming a slight danger to anyone of consequence, but I don't. IF I have karma I don't see why I should have to enter the world perpetually as a helpless nobody. Allow a few more options and I think the excitement and roles would be greatly enhanced.

Jut crude idea of the top of my head.

Levels of karma:
Number  Options
1 karma  desert elf, moderate skillset for a mundane
2 karma  water and stone elementalist, advanced skillset for a mundane
3 karma  half giant, recruit 1 person with staff approval
4 karma  wind and fire elementalist, recruit 2
5 karma  lightning and shadow elementalist, recruit 3
6 karma  void elementalist, recruit 4
7 karma  mul, shop, bodyguard
8 karma  psi and sorcerer, wagon



As for my opinion on stagnation? Where is any conflict that is anything but petty squabbling? Everyone says to be the change, but if you do anything to break up the hand holding festival, you'll get slapped down from on high. Maybe if players had groups that the Houses could target, it would liven things up.

[Cutthroat]

Your idea as proposed would be a drain upon activity in the game. Imagine if one eight-karma player decides to start his own pseudo-clan with his buddies right from Day 0. Or imagine if eight one karma players separately decide to take one non-family character each as buddies from the start. There would be fewer alliances created in-game; even less of a desire to join clans when the reasons for doing so are already thin; and isolation would grow.

I understand where you're coming from. I just don't think the idea is well thought-out. OOC coordination is an issue people try to treat carefully, yes, but the practicality of the idea will just continue to tip the scales in favor of singular PCs and tiny groups. Anyone that wants areawide or worldwide plots would not find this idea to be a minor inconvenience. They would be utterly shafted.

You're not perpetually a helpless nobody. There are more ways to be the change, than taking power through coded means. There are more ways to enter or create a group than to do so right from the start. There are clans, and there are independent groups that crop up from time to time, all of the time. If you're looking for conflict, it's in these groups and amongst them. You just may not be privy to it. Have some patience or look elsewhere, and you'll see it eventually.

[HavokBlue]

As for my opinion on stagnation? Where is any conflict that is anything but petty squabbling? Everyone says to be the change, but if you do anything to break up the hand holding festival, you'll get slapped down from on high. Maybe if players had groups that the Houses could target, it would liven things up.

I can tell you from experience that it is entirely possible to create conflict beyond petty squabbling without getting wrist-slapped, but that isn't really what this topic is about, I think.

[Drayab]

If you couldn't OOCly recruit family members, then you'd never see PC brothers and sisters, only cousins among the people who took a role like a noble house family member. If you want PC families as a possibility, then it pretty much has to be this way.

There's nothing stopping you from forming a band of murderous thugs except for the fact that templar and militia PCs love a chance to catch a crook. I think you should give more thought to how to stay undetected while you build your nefarious organization, and less thought to how you can get it set up OOCly so you can bust out on the scene with your posse already behind you. You're right; it's not easy, but with great challenge comes great reward if you pull it off.

[Titania]

I guess I don't care if the houses never got another PC. They are all tied into each other so much it is boring
To me I'd rather see something new. If some new group popped up my first thought would be to be curious not piss myself wondering how they are going to cheat or affect the stale and mighty houses.

Another issue is time. I cant play enough to organize something organically. So because of this ooc thing another idea is crushed.

If you say how bad it would make things I propose it can hardly get worse. I am not interested in restriction I am in seeing peoplehave a chance to try things and have fun. That seems like the thing no one cares about

[Drayab]

One of the things I like about Armageddon is that I agree with the administration's policies regarding meta-gaming, which is to say, they do their best to limit it. Success in the game should not be dependent on your ability to form a group in OOC circles. I like the way that everybody starts out on basically equal footing whether you are a noob or you have been playing for ten years. It is a common complaint among veterans that 'the grind' really gets old when you are rolling up warrior #22, but I think it is a necessary evil. I also understand your frustrations with RL time constraints. Personally, I have to avoid leadership positions entirely because I do not have the time to invest to do it right. That said, when you start giving out perks like stat/skill boosts, wagons, shops and minions based on karma level, you are creating an underclass of players that feel unappreciated when they don't get karma, and they keep seeing these new characters entering the world with the same level of skills and goodies they've been developing over the past 3 rl months. In fact, if it were set up like this, people without karma might decide there is no point to even trying to form a band of murderous thugs, because some high karma player is just going to get it all set up over AIM and roll in with their posse next week. They would bust onto the scene with force, and yet they would have no connections to long lived PCs or plots that have been going on for a while. Karma already gives access to astonishing power, but it is well balanced by social restrictions and roleplay expectations. I do not want to see karma becoming increasingly important to one's success, as measured by your character's accomplishments IG.

[Cutthroat]

I guess I don't care if the houses never got another PC. They are all tied into each other so much it is boring
To me I'd rather see something new. If some new group popped up my first thought would be to be curious not piss myself wondering how they are going to cheat or affect the stale and mighty houses.

Another issue is time. I cant play enough to organize something organically. So because of this ooc thing another idea is crushed.

If you say how bad it would make things I propose it can hardly get worse. I am not interested in restriction I am in seeing peoplehave a chance to try things and have fun. That seems like the tvarhing no one cares about

What I don't understand exactly is how you can't do this with the rules that are already in place. If you want to make a group of hunters, for example, that's fine. Get three family members the usual way and recruit hunters in game. The family could lead the group, while the rest are "employees" or whatever else you could imagine. But you're never going to have everything set up for you, whether you're playing a few hours a day or a few hours a week. And while I feel for the plight of the casual player, I've never had trouble participating in plots on either side of the fence. It takes effort no matter how much time you have, or what you choose to do with it.

The "stale and mighty" Houses of which you speak have lots of virtual power. I don't think that you would see a small group of people easily affecting one negatively, from the start of the group's creation. Yes, it takes work. What my argument was primarily about was that the clans (Houses, tribes, the Byn, militias, etc) would be even more underrepresented than they are now, if there are even more groups (player-created groups) to join.

Also, don't make the mistake of conflating disagreement with not caring about fun. I personally think that if we see more PCs split into more groups with varying amounts of power from the beginning that it won't be fun, but I find the current way of things fun enough. You seem to think the opposite, but that's fine too.