Merchants, and Why I Hate them.

[Marshmellow]

Synthesis, a clever Merchant guild character can get PLENTY of materials without having to see another PC... enough to make said Merchant guild character very rich, complete with mastering and branching skills.

[Synthesis]

Sure, at great personal risk.  Merchant combat never gets beyond about the level of a 5-day burglar...if you really want to go all-in when you've got the equivalent of a pair of 4's in your hand, I suppose that's your business.

Effort-to-effort and risk-to-risk, the odds are easily stacked in favor of the ranger/crafter (or warrior/crafter).  The only advantage merchants really have is the fact that you (if you're reasonable) will never be tempted to take the sort of risks that get rangers and warriors killed prematurely (these risks generally don't involve gathering resources to craft with, so they're not included in the pure crafting risk-reward calculation), because you'll know for certain that the probability of success is 0.  When you get bored with crafting and you're a merchant, your only real option is to go idle at the bar...rangers and warriors tend to go looking for trouble.

[Kalai]

Synthesis, a clever Merchant guild character can get PLENTY of materials without having to see another PC... enough to make said Merchant guild character very rich, complete with mastering and branching skills.

Quite frankly, I daresay a character could achieve some degree of success without any visible coded skills *or* seeing other PCs. It would just be rather difficult and take a great deal of carefulness.

Like a merchant character seeking to provide all his own materials.

[Marshmellow]

...if you really want to go all-in when you've got the equivalent of a pair of 4's in your hand, I suppose that's your business.

Hey, if you can bluff everyone else out, why not? 

[Fredd]

You don't need combat skills to be adequate in combat.  Sure, 45-day Merchant and 45-day Warrior won't be anywhere on the same level, but a Merchant can survive on their own and indeed hunt.  I've done it.

I'm also not sure what the objection to what I said last was.  I said that crafter sub-guilds are not made obsolete by the fact that the Merchant guild gets all those skills, because a Merchant with a crafter sub-guild isn't a bad decision in some cases.

Is your beef that ONLY Merchant guild characters can master crafting skills?  (Not true, by the way.)

My beef is what you said at the begining. Yes, A merchant wont ever be the same as a warrior of the same age. BUT, I know, for a fact, Merchants can kick butt, given time. Especially since most merchants are Wisdom specced, there hidden skills of Attack and Defense, will increase very fast.

I have gotten my but kicked by a merchant as a ranger. Granted the merchant was MUCH older. Merchants can't be counted out of combat.
And they still have the ability to master every craft....

I mean, i guess I could see them learning to like Journeyman in the other crafts. But Why should a merchant who;s background is weapons, master jewlery and woodworking? It doesn't make much sense to me.

[Marshmellow]

Um, no.  A merchant can NOT kick butt later.  He can flick ears quite effectively, but kick butt?  Hardly.

[Agnor]

I mean, i guess I could see them learning to like Journeyman in the other crafts. But Why should a merchant who;s background is weapons, master jewlery and woodworking? It doesn't make much sense to me.

This confuses me too, not that they can reach the skill level but that they can request the ability to craft an item that has never been seen before, from any crafting background they have mastered potentially. I thought that was meant to represent the lifetime of work they had put in to their area of crafting expertise, but any merchant can essentially become Da Vinci given time?

[Fredd]

Um, no.  A merchant can NOT kick butt later.  He can flick ears quite effectively, but kick butt?  Hardly.

Killing a carru or gith is butt-kicking enough for me.

[Synthesis]

Yeah, I'm going to have go with "unlikely" on that one.

[Cindy42]

What was the point of this thread? Hate is a strong word, and it doesn't sound like the OP really "hates" the merchant guild so much as wants to complain about imbalance... or am I reading into the post too much? There's benefits and disadvantages to all the guilds. They don't all have to be equal in strength, and you don't have to like all of them to still enjoy playing Arm.

being disadvantaged is something everyone on Arm knows. if nothing else, you don't know mirrukim or something.

i think merchants are honestly disadvantaged compared to most people, since there are things out there that want to eat you and they're the least prepared to deal with that.

[Fredd]

What was the point of this thread? Hate is a strong word, and it doesn't sound like the OP really "hates" the merchant guild so much as wants to complain about imbalance... or am I reading into the post too much? There's benefits and disadvantages to all the guilds. They don't all have to be equal in strength, and you don't have to like all of them to still enjoy playing Arm.

being disadvantaged is something everyone on Arm knows. if nothing else, you don't know mirrukim or something.

i think merchants are honestly disadvantaged compared to most people, since there are things out there that want to eat you and they're the least prepared to deal with that.

I'll give you that. They are the least prepaired, and it takes a good while for them to get any amount of skill in combat. But still. Pickpockets don't learn to pick locks. (unless i'm missing something) Why should a weapons merchant make jewlery is what I'm saying.


And your right, I dont HATE them, it was just a good thread name.

[Chettaman]

"weapons merchant" is just their job title. You can be a pick pocket/thief who is a "weapons merchant". Or a "merchant" for that matter. Or "body guard", "assassin"... etc...
Please stop stating that a merchant -has- to be a merchant. They could just as quickly -never- craft a thing. I don't think it's unfair for a crafter to be able to craft. Making things just make sense to them.

I myself am a firm believer that -everyone- should be able to craft. But have a .01 chance at succeeding. Because I like to waste items in the spirit of roleplay. And also hate it when I have to give back the items I was trying to craft or junk them because I -obviously- don't have that skill. but that's not what this thread is about. Excuse me. 

[Fredd]

"weapons merchant" is just their job title. You can be a pick pocket/thief who is a "weapons merchant". Or a "merchant" for that matter. Or "body guard", "assassin"... etc...
Please stop stating that a merchant -has- to be a merchant. They could just as quickly -never- craft a thing. I don't think it's unfair for a crafter to be able to craft. Making things just make sense to them.

I myself am a firm believer that -everyone- should be able to craft. But have a .01 chance at succeeding. Because I like to waste items in the spirit of roleplay. And also hate it when I have to give back the items I was trying to craft or junk them because I -obviously- don't have that skill. but that's not what this thread is about. Excuse me. 

never said they had to. i've seen merchant hunters.

What I said Is I dislike a merchant/weaponcrafter making jewlery and furnature. it doesnt make sense.

[Cutthroat]

"weapons merchant" is just their job title. You can be a pick pocket/thief who is a "weapons merchant". Or a "merchant" for that matter. Or "body guard", "assassin"... etc...
Please stop stating that a merchant -has- to be a merchant. They could just as quickly -never- craft a thing. I don't think it's unfair for a crafter to be able to craft. Making things just make sense to them.

I myself am a firm believer that -everyone- should be able to craft. But have a .01 chance at succeeding. Because I like to waste items in the spirit of roleplay. And also hate it when I have to give back the items I was trying to craft or junk them because I -obviously- don't have that skill. but that's not what this thread is about. Excuse me. 

never said they had to. i've seen merchant hunters.

What I said Is I dislike a merchant/weaponcrafter making jewlery and furnature. it doesnt make sense.

That is more of a roleplay issue than anything else. If the merchant/weaponcrafter PC's background involves making and selling weapons, hopefully that PC has a good reason to branch out into other fields besides "I branched". That is more of a question of roleplaying branching in general, for all guilds, though.

[Thunkkin]

any merchant can essentially become Da Vinci given time?

Correct.

From my observation, however, most master-crafting is done in weapons, armor, jewelry, or clothing. Most people aren't master-crafting baskets or hide-scrapers (though, personally, I think that would be awesome). Also, if you are affiliated with an organization like a merchant house, there will be huge pressure toward making the House's specialties for its VIP customers.

[Kalai]

any merchant can essentially become Da Vinci given time?

Correct.

From my observation, however, most master-crafting is done in weapons, armor, jewelry, or clothing. Most people aren't master-crafting baskets or hide-scrapers (though, personally, I think that would be awesome). Also, if you are affiliated with an organization like a merchant house, there will be huge pressure toward making the House's specialties for its VIP customers.

Bah ... you know, I'm going to wind up playing an elven merchant someday just because people keep talking about elves and merchants and making them sound cool and have neat ideas for them.

And I'm probably going to hate it.

Someday.

[Nyr]

never said they had to. i've seen merchant hunters.

What I said Is I dislike a merchant/weaponcrafter making jewlery and furnature. it doesnt make sense.

help subguild

Subguilds are intended to round out characters with regards to their primary guild. They are not substitutes for a primary guild.

I think it makes sense.  A merchant can make lots of stuff:

Furthermore, they have great talent in many forms of crafting, from simple cups to intricate forms of weaponry.

Since you can't see the guilds or subguilds of other people, this shouldn't be too bothersome.  Subguilds are there to round out PCs.  Ranger/thief PCs may have just a light background in theft and focus way more on hunting; this isn't bad (considering subguilds are generally not replacements for a primary guild).  It's not really up to the player whether something makes sense for the RP of another player, though.  Let staff determine that.  If you have a complaint against someone, put it in the request queue.  We can take a look, though I honestly have never seen a complaint about a merchant with a crafting subguild learning to craft stuff from their main guild, because at its core, the complaint is "I don't like it that merchants can craft."  Their many disadvantages may not be obvious to you until you actually play one and see the work that goes into the rare cases of merchants that have some mediocre measure of combat.

Go play a merchant, you may be surprised at how difficult it is.

[Zoltan]

Um, no.  A merchant can NOT kick butt later.  He can flick ears quite effectively, but kick butt?  Hardly.

Killing a carru or gith is butt-kicking enough for me.

Remember that everyone's a hero when you got a dozen PCs ganging up on something.  I remember the abject lesson I got in "OH SHIT" when I went from smacking gith around with my insane-o warrior and company, to giving it a go with my lone Elkran. Yeeeeesh, that was emotional.

As far as balance goes? There is no real balance in this game. Any guild that is long-lived and regularly uses their skills is simply going to be insanely powerful. Some guilds display that power in different ways. Some power is "better". The only guild I would say could truly do it all is a sorcerer, and even that comes with some severe disadvantages and caveats.

A master-crafting merchant that through a very long time of play can mostly defend themselves? Congratulations to them, because that's a long, long road to that point.

[Fredd]

never said they had to. i've seen merchant hunters.

What I said Is I dislike a merchant/weaponcrafter making jewlery and furnature. it doesnt make sense.

help subguild

Subguilds are intended to round out characters with regards to their primary guild. They are not substitutes for a primary guild.

I think it makes sense.  A merchant can make lots of stuff:

Furthermore, they have great talent in many forms of crafting, from simple cups to intricate forms of weaponry.

Since you can't see the guilds or subguilds of other people, this shouldn't be too bothersome.  Subguilds are there to round out PCs.  Ranger/thief PCs may have just a light background in theft and focus way more on hunting; this isn't bad (considering subguilds are generally not replacements for a primary guild).  It's not really up to the player whether something makes sense for the RP of another player, though.  Let staff determine that.  If you have a complaint against someone, put it in the request queue.  We can take a look, though I honestly have never seen a complaint about a merchant with a crafting subguild learning to craft stuff from their main guild, because at its core, the complaint is "I don't like it that merchants can craft."  Their many disadvantages may not be obvious to you until you actually play one and see the work that goes into the rare cases of merchants that have some mediocre measure of combat.

Go play a merchant, you may be surprised at how difficult it is.

it's not a complaint on a player, and I have played merchants in the past.

it's more a "i just don't see it" type thing

[My 2 sids]

Here's why it makes IC sense that guilds are more powerful than sub-classes:  sub-guilds are there to round out a character.  The PC may have picked it up along the way (such as a bynner learns to hold their liquor or a hunter learns to make their own gear) or maybe it's just a personal knack (flexibility, conning)  GUILDS, however, reflect the PC's main focus thus far.  The merchant has learned the business, they've learned how to spot quality work.   While a combat type has honed and learned to pick up on different weapon techniques, or pick-pockets on how to spot a good "mark",  a merchant has learned how to form patterns for cloth/leather working or how to finely tune tools to create detail work.

Something, if you didn't figure out already, is that like all guilds many of the merchant's skills are branched -- they don't know everything right out the gate.

Also,  remember some people do make special requests.  I often just figure anyone really, unbalanced (code wise) is a special request.

[Thunkkin]

I often just figure anyone really, unbalanced (code wise) is a special request.

My own experience with special apps leads me NOT to suspect this in most situations. Perhaps it was different in the past, but in order to get unusual skills and/or higher skill caps, you must give up an equal or greater amount. For instance, I once spec apped having a crafting skill's CAP raised from advanced to master. This was a crafting skill that my character would have had anyway both via guild and sub-guild. In return, I had to have one of my guild's core skills lowered to apprentice with the knowledge that I would never get the two other skills that branched from it. I wanted the character concept badly enough that I considered this a fair trade. So, to get a completely not powerful skill (that my char would have had anyway) from advanced to master, I basically had to sacrifice three other skills. I was happy with this, but it didn't result in an overpowered character.

I imagine most people who special app "a merchant but with disarm, kick, and backstab added!" will be smacked down unless it's something the staff want for a very specific reason. My experience might be abnormal, however. In most cases, it's safe to assume that a kick-ass person is able to kick ass for a variety of reasons other than a spec app.

[Marshmellow]

Your experience is NOT abnormal, Thunkinn.  Special applications get slapped around more than normal applications and get more restrictions (often enough) than normal applications do.  Unless you're asking for something almost completely useless (like I had a character start with two accents once), you'll also be giving something up.

[RogueGunslinger]

I somewhat agree with the op in that I'd rather the "main" crafting  subguilds turned into individual guilds, and the rest of the stuff merchant guilds get tacked on each one, like the language, and ride, and stuff. And then just do away with the merchant class all together.

It makes a lot more sense to me to have clothiers, smithies, stoneworkers, and so on, than jack of all trade sorts. I kind of liken it to having a guild that mixes Warrior/assassin or Ranger/Burglar. Seems like a bit much for one guild.

For whatever reason, when I first made a subguild crafter, I was really disappointed with what I was able to do when compared to the Merchant guild... It felt like a wasted subguild, with what I had planned for the character. With was a warrior/weaponsmith type role. I don't remember what it was exactly, but it felt a whole lot like: "Oh... I can't even make the type of weapons my character uses? Lame."

[Lizzie]

Problem with that idea, is that the GMHs often make use of multiple disciplines. And in fact, some crafted items require multiple disciplines to complete. You're suggestion would require that the GMH employers have at least one of each type of crafter employed. And if one dies, there is no one else to pick up the slack. And if none of the other players happen to pick clothworker as their guild that month, Kadius would just have to do without anyone capable of sewing a piece of linen into a pair of pants. It's hard enough trying to find interested guild_merchant PCs to hire, who are worth having, who will be useful, interesting, interested employees. Having to hire one of each would be madness.

[Pale Horse]

Seems like most of the disagreements leveled at the Merchant guild will be cleared up by the introduction of the Arm2 guilds.  If I remember right, isn't the plan to split the class into "Merchant" which has the haggle, value, etc. type skills, and "Artisan" which has the crafting skills?