Merchants, and Why I Hate them.

[Fredd]

I was thinking about this for awhile.

Why do merchants get EVERY tradeskill in the game? it renders the "weaponscrafter" ect subguilds useless. My personal belief is that they should get there guild main skills and there subguild skills.



Arguement to be proceded below.

Go...

[Lizzie]

Weaponsmith can't master weaponsmithing. Only merchant class can master the different crafts.

The point of a subguild is to flesh out your character's lifestyle, not to define it. The main guild, would define it from a coded skill perspective (obviously the RP defines it in all other aspects).

Merchant is the "master crafter." Weaponsmith is the "talented lackey who will never be the master."

So if you want to play the role of someone who is capable of being the best, you would -not- rely on your subguild to do that for you. You would pick Merchant.

Only a Master Crafter (i.e. Merchant mastered in any given crafting skill) can have unique or custom designed items made for them or their customers.

[Cutthroat]

Lizzie said it well. I would add that it is entirely possible to play a merchant as if you did not have every crafting skill in the game, and just focus upon crafts that are important to your PC, and that some people do seem to manage to do this. Therefore, merchants get every crafting skill so that the player can pick and choose what to actually focus on, being a crafter.

[Marauder Moe]

Merchants don't "get" every tradeskill in the game.  They have to work for most of them (or choose the appropriate subguild if you want a head start).

[Marshmellow]

Those guilds are not useless, even for a merchant.

[Fredd]

Those guilds are not useless, even for a merchant.

How so? it's just a headstart for the merchants. They can master every craft.


I just think that if a merchant is a weaponsmaker, they can master thse skills and here main skills.. it just makes sense to me. instead of a whole clan relyin' on one crafter to make EVERYTHING, they have to hire more.

Yeah, it would probably raise in game prices too.

[Wasteland Raider]

And in return, the merchant can't do anything remotely resembling combat on anything remotely resembling the scale of any other guild in the game.

It's a tradeoff. If you want to be awesome at a skill, pick a guild that has that skill. For crafting, this is Merchant.

[Fredd]

And in return, the merchant can't do anything remotely resembling combat on anything remotely resembling the scale of any other guild in the game.

It's a tradeoff. If you want to be awesome at a skill, pick a guild that has that skill. For crafting, this is Merchant.

Lies and deciet. I know of two merchants that can hold there own againt carru.

[Nyr]

Wasteland Raider is absolutely and completely correct.  Your two merchants either aren't guild merchants, got lucky, or have spent enough time training in combat that they aren't immediately annihilated.

[Drayab]

Wasteland Raider is absolutely and completely correct.  Your two merchants either aren't guild merchants, got lucky, or have spent enough time training in combat that they aren't immediately annihilated.

And let's not forget the importance of stats for low skill combatants. I've never seen it myself, but I could believe that a high strength, well-outfitted, and trained guild merchant could handle a carru in a pinch. Any other guild with the same stats, gear, and training would perform way and beyond superior to the merchant, though.

[Marshmellow]

You don't need combat skills to be adequate in combat.  Sure, 45-day Merchant and 45-day Warrior won't be anywhere on the same level, but a Merchant can survive on their own and indeed hunt.  I've done it.

I'm also not sure what the objection to what I said last was.  I said that crafter sub-guilds are not made obsolete by the fact that the Merchant guild gets all those skills, because a Merchant with a crafter sub-guild isn't a bad decision in some cases.

Is your beef that ONLY Merchant guild characters can master crafting skills?  (Not true, by the way.)

[Pale Horse]

You don't need combat skills to be adequate in combat.  Sure, 45-day Merchant and 45-day Warrior won't be anywhere on the same level, but a Merchant can survive on their own and indeed hunt.  I've done it.

I'm also not sure what the objection to what I said last was.  I said that crafter sub-guilds are not made obsolete by the fact that the Merchant guild gets all those skills, because a Merchant with a crafter sub-guild isn't a bad decision in some cases.

Is your beef that ONLY Merchant guild characters can master crafting skills?  (Not true, by the way.)

I've always been under the impression that true "master" level in a crafting skill is only attainable by Guild:Merchant, and is unattainable for a subguild:crafter.

As an example, I point out the character I had at the time when the change to allowing us to see our characters' skill levels came in.  My character was (guild which was not guild:merchant) and subguild:tailor.  At the time, they'd practiced quite a lot on their clothworking skills and I was feeling quite proficient with their level of expertise.  Then along came the change that allowed us to see their skill level, and lo and behold, they were at "Master" level in their craft.  My immediate thought was "Huh..I thought a sub-guild couldn't get that high?"  I quarried a staff member, IG, about that.  Turns out I was right.  Their skill was demoted to "Advanced."  I was not upset about this change.  Yes, being slightly less proficient than I'd grown used to was a little saddening, but I was far more satisfied with being in line with how the game was supposed to be.

[Lizzie]

Also, there is the coded designated "Master" skill level, and there is the "Allowed to submit and have implemented new master-crafted items" level. Only the Merchant_guild is allowed to have new items created via submission/implementation.

[Semper]

Being a master at a crafting skill is not comparable to being a master at combat for a couple reasons. Although a merchant can craft all items of the skill once a master, they have to rely on the knowledge of HOW to make the item, as well as required to gather the necessary materials. Except for the staff (who probably don't even know all the possible crafting recipes without looking them up) there's no way to be a complete "master" at a crafting skill where you can make every single recipe. There are also limitations based on clan and so on.

A master warrior on the other hand only needs to pick up a suitable weapon and type "kill", for the most part. A master crafter in weaponsmaking might have a higher success rate on making weapons, but if they don't know the required materials, they're just as good as an amateur.

I think that for one balances things out. There's other reasons, which the previous posters have mentioned already (such as lack of combat skills, etc). Merchants are pretty much the ultimate mundane support class, as they need to rely on other guilds almost exclusively to get most things done.

[Semper]

What was the point of this thread? Hate is a strong word, and it doesn't sound like the OP really "hates" the merchant guild so much as wants to complain about imbalance... or am I reading into the post too much? There's benefits and disadvantages to all the guilds. They don't all have to be equal in strength, and you don't have to like all of them to still enjoy playing Arm.

[My 2 sids]

On the same token,  there are plenty of people who pick fighting-based guilds but then decide to make gobs and gobs of money doing the business of a merchant -- which is also not fair.

I'm not sure if two unfairs make a fair, but it does tend to balance out.

[Marshmellow]

@Pale Horse:  What I was referencing is not common knowledge, but it is still factual.  There are some crafting skills that can be mastered by people that are not Merchants.  I will say no more on that specifically, but did feel the need to say it so that people do not freak out when they come across the situation or situations where a non-Merchant can get master in a craft skill.  It is always recommended that you check when you think something is wrong.

For most crafting skills, however, Merchants are indeed the only people that can master the skill.

[Xeran Van Houten]

The only thing to "hate" about guild_merchant is when people start treating said merchant as an item vendor rather than a person.

[drunkendwarf]

I don't understand this thread.
It's like asking why rangers are so good at hunting...it makes the hunter subguild useless.
Why are rangers so good with a bow, it makes the archer subguild useless.
Why are pick pockets so good at picking pockets...it makes the thief subguild useless.

Is there an actual point here?

[jstorrie]

You can craft well with a subclass.

Training multiple unrelated crafting skills is a pain in the ass.

Playing a merchant is an exercise in patience and probably masochism.

[Agnor]

I imagine the request side of being a master merchant would also be very different depending on subguild and training. I would think a merchant who has the subguild to craft weapons would be able to request, upon reaching master in another crafting field, for the once a month request from that skill instead with as much success as if they stuck with the skill there life is meant to be based on?

[Seafra]

It's a tradeoff. If you want to be awesome at a skill, pick a guild that has that skill. For crafting, this is Merchant.
[/quote]

Lies and deciet. I know of two merchants that can hold there own againt carru.
[/quote]

I've played a few merchants before. Sure they can hunt a little and be fairly good at it. But it's like the guy that makes knives, they'll never be as good, nor as good in combat as a warrior. I, too, don't get this tread, if you are jealous of merchant play one. Personally, I've always enjoyed playing Rangers more then I do a merchant. But it is a completely different challenge to play the merchant.

[Seafra]

I've played a few merchants before. Sure they can hunt a little and be fairly good at it. But it's like the guy that makes knives, they'll never be as good, nor as good in combat as a warrior. I, too, don't get this tread, if you are jealous of merchants play one. Personally, I've always enjoyed playing Rangers more then I do a merchant. But it is a completely different challenge to play the merchant.

[Thunkkin]

I imagine the request side of being a master merchant would also be very different depending on subguild and training. I would think a merchant who has the subguild to craft weapons would be able to request, upon reaching master in another crafting field, for the once a month request from that skill instead with as much success as if they stuck with the skill there life is meant to be based on?

You get one item creation request per month. You must be a "master" in the craft. You may pick any craft that you have mastered. My merchant was not particularly dedicated to any craft but rather made it his business to learn the ins-and-outs of everything his Merchant House made. I had many, many crafts at master (this is usual for longer-lived merchants) and I sent master-craft requests for whatever craft suited my whim that month.

Very few subguilds, in my semi-limited experience, can master the crafts with which they begin. For that reason, I usually don't find the crafting subguilds that attractive unless they really are the foundation of a particular concept. "I'm a really crappy knife maker who's fallen on hard times because ... I'm really crappy at making knives and ALWAYS will be!" (That's a hypothetical example).

[Synthesis]

A ranger with a crafting subguild can make quite a bit more money quite a bit more easily than a merchant, for the simple fact that no matter how good the haggle skill is, and no matter how fail-proof your (master) skill is, being able to get your own raw materials basically free of charge (okay, nominal cost for stabling fees) beats the hell out of both combined.  Free food and water is also a big cost-saver.  Also, you can easily get the items you need when you need them, instead of waiting around begging for people to "PLEEEEASE go out and forage loreshi reeds PLEEEEAAASE I'LL GIVE YOU FIFTY 'SID APIECE EVEN THOUGH THAT'S A RIDICULOUS PRICE BECAUSE FOR A SOLID RL MONTH NOBODY HAS TAKEN ME UP ON MY OFFER OF TWENTY-FIVE WHICH IS ALSO RIDICULOUS."

It's not even that much more dangerous, really.  Hell, it's probably safer, if you discount the danger of NPCs (which is largely manageable if you're experienced), since most apartments are about as secure as a cardboard box.  When you're a ranger and someone breaks into your place while you're spam-crafting, at least you've got a weapon skill, parry, and poison to even up the odds a bit.  If you're a merchant, you might as well invite the chap in and help him load his lootbag up.  Might even invite you along so you can haggle the prices up for him while he's selling your loot.