Citizenship-Only Apartments

[X-D]

House Nenyuk does not care who they give -Those- apartments to.

[Aaron Goulet]

If you start letting northron scum rent in your fancy Allanaki apartment building (or vice versa), you risk devaluing your rentals and/or upsetting your tenants.

[Lizzie]

If you start letting northron scum rent in your fancy Allanaki apartment building (or vice versa), you risk devaluing your rentals and/or upsetting your tenants.

Sounds good, but past history proves it false. With one exception that I know of, Nenyuk doesn't give a damn who pays the rent, as long as someone is paying it. PCs will NOT stop renting apartments, just because the guy downstairs at the opposite end of the hall has the wrong inks. PCs need storage. And they've proven willing to pay for it. PCs need mudsex rooms. And they've proven willing to pay for it. PCs need safe city-based sparring spots where there's no crimflag to worry about. And they've proven willing to pay for it. The statement about northron scum and fancy Nakki apartments is just - untrue, and impractical. Nenyuk has the monopoly on apartments, AND on city-based currency. Nenyuk determines the value of apartments, not its tenants. There is no supply/demand. There is only demand/payment. You can refuse to rent in a Nenyuk apartment, or you can pay whatever Nenyuk tells you that you'll pay, and live in the same building as whoever Nenyuk says you live with. With that one exception, which I believe is IC info.

[Sam]

Nenyuk can't just own property in a City-state. They are allowed to be the middle man. They are allowed to lease that property from either the Temlerate or the Nobles. I would bet that Nenyuk would reap all kinds of benefits from discounting rooms to militiamen, the slaving houses, the other people that would then give kickbacks and back-pats to Nenyuk. Corruption and unfairness would go a long way towards furthering Nenyuk's goals. Since you know, if Nenyuk treats the well-to-do's badly, they may find some -reinforced- competition down the road.

They would also do a better job maintaining those apartment for their well-to-do tenants than those apartment renting to a clan of skinnies, or a weird group of stumps.

[Synthesis]

1. I wouldn't discount the negative effects you could experience by angering "a clan of skinnies." 

2. I think that, by and large, the GMHs have maintained much of their power and their ability to work throughout the Known World by maintaining at least the outward appearance of neutrality.

3. Also, nobles have estates, so they don't need apartments...and their employees have perfectly functional barracks, that serve a dual purpose of being relatively cheap.  (What, is our barracks not good enough for you, recruit? Perhaps you'd like to go back to sleeping in the Gaj.)  I doubt the noble Houses want to expend political capital on buttering up Nenyuk just so their employees can have a nicer place to spend their evenings.

[Niamh]

More apartment buildings?  Perhaps the reason there have been no more new ones built is because there is no room for it.  Red Storm is a small village, after all.  Nenyuk doesn't even have a bank there.

Alleys in Red Storm too dangerous?  Apparently not.  There have been a number of times when I've found people using the aggressive NPCs in there as sparring dummies, or ways to get free loot.

[KankWhisperer]

So if I got a citizen to initially rent with me then murdered them, would I be kicked off the rent?

[Sam]

Yes sir.

[Aaron Goulet]

If you start letting northron scum rent in your fancy Allanaki apartment building (or vice versa), you risk devaluing your rentals and/or upsetting your tenants.

Sounds good, but past history proves it false. With one exception that I know of, Nenyuk doesn't give a damn who pays the rent, as long as someone is paying it. PCs will NOT stop renting apartments, just because the guy downstairs at the opposite end of the hall has the wrong inks. PCs need storage. And they've proven willing to pay for it. PCs need mudsex rooms. And they've proven willing to pay for it. PCs need safe city-based sparring spots where there's no crimflag to worry about. And they've proven willing to pay for it. The statement about northron scum and fancy Nakki apartments is just - untrue, and impractical. Nenyuk has the monopoly on apartments, AND on city-based currency. Nenyuk determines the value of apartments, not its tenants. There is no supply/demand. There is only demand/payment. You can refuse to rent in a Nenyuk apartment, or you can pay whatever Nenyuk tells you that you'll pay, and live in the same building as whoever Nenyuk says you live with. With that one exception, which I believe is IC info.

I'm not sure it's so cut and dry, especially with the PC-represented portion of the world that you are focusing on.  Let's, for the sake of argument, examine the following points:

• Nenyuk profits from less turnover, as it means apartments spend less time unoccupied and more time earning money.
• 'Rinthers, elves, and other undesireables tend not to live as long as clanned characters.
• 'Rinthers, elves, and other undesireables are ICly more likely to have trouble coming up with their next payment.
• PCs tend to move when their belongings get repeatedly stolen (prior PCs of mine have helped their buddies move from one apartment to another on more than one occasion).
• 'Rinthers, elves, and undesireables are more likely to steal.

Assuming the above points are all true, then Nenyuk's apartments would spend more time vacant (and less time earning money) if they treated all renters equally.  I don't think that they would cut the less desirable segment out of the picture, but they might charge them more on a monthly basis; think of it as the Zalanthan equivalent to paying more on a security deposit if you have bad credit or a bad rental history.

Here is a (hypothetical) pricing guide:

Renter	Pricing
Unclanned Foreigner/Elf/'Rinth Rat	125%
Unclanned Citizen	100%
Clanned Foreigner	100%
Clanned Citizen	75%

Also, I would like to address a few points I saw made while reading this thread:

Why would Nenyuk give clanned people a break?
I can think of three good reasons to justify it:  Firstly, clanned characters, as mentioned before, tend to live a llittle longer.  More importantly, they have a stable, consistent income that can be counted on.  They tend to be less likely to cause trouble (they have more to lose than spending a night in a jail cell).  A side benefit (but not a real reason) is that Nenyuk gains a little favor with the local houses.  Someone mentioned GMH's maintaining neutrality, but that doesn't mean that they have nothing to gain from being on everyone's good side equally.

I also think this helps make up for the fact that clanned characters (with the exception of some GMH PCs) make less money than independents.  This way, they have a better shot at having a place of their own.

Why do clanned people need apartments, anyway? (TANGENT)
Clanned PCs have no privacy.  Pushing mudsex COMPLETELY aside here, there are several reasons for wanting privacy, from sekret meetings to just wanting to escape the turmoil of the barracks .  People also enjoy having apartments because it gives them something to decorate (I'm guilty of this).  But mostly, barracks tend to feel crowded, cluttered, and offer little room for customization...  And you will never be able to call it "your" space.

The Reader's Digest Version (tl;dr):

Unreliable and/or undesirable renters are less profitable than reliable and desirable ones, even if they pay a little less.  Everyone should be able to rent an apartment, but the pricing should vary according to how desirable they are as a renter.

THE END

[Synthesis]

tl;dr: Aaron Goulet is just makin' shit up.

[Aaron Goulet]

tl;dr: Aaron Goulet is just makin' shit up.

Am not. 

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Aaron, you get cool points for your breakdown above. I like it. I support it.

[Armaddict]

With a cute singsong as he places his knife on the table, The vicious, bastard templar asks the nenyuki vendor, in sirihish:
 "Care to tell me how that northron spy kept all of that shit here, in this apartment I now hold you in, without any suspicion from you, or even an indication to His templarate that there was someone to watch LIVING here?"


Your breakdown works way better in a free city-state.

[hyzhenhok]

tl;dr: Aaron Goulet is just makin' shit up.

Am not. 

As Synth was the guy arguing that some indies just need four apartments to do their thing back when they instituted the limit, I doubt he's an impartial party in this discussion.

[Aaron Goulet]

With a cute singsong as he places his knife on the table, The vicious, bastard templar asks the nenyuki vendor, in sirihish:
 "Care to tell me how that northron spy kept all of that shit here, in this apartment I now hold you in, without any suspicion from you, or even an indication to His templarate that there was someone to watch LIVING here?"


Your breakdown works way better in a free city-state.

Adding, the vicious, bastard templar says to the Nenyuki vendor, in sirihish:
  "I hope you overcharged him, at least."

[Armaddict]

With a cute singsong as he places his knife on the table, The vicious, bastard templar asks the nenyuki vendor, in sirihish:
 "Care to tell me how that northron spy kept all of that shit here, in this apartment I now hold you in, without any suspicion from you, or even an indication to His templarate that there was someone to watch LIVING here?"


Your breakdown works way better in a free city-state.

Adding, the vicious, bastard templar says to the Nenyuki vendor, in sirihish:
  "I hope you overcharged him, at least."

That would assume a working relationship, which assumes that there is working together, which they do, so I assume there is...which is why I say it's a good idea, because it would only make even more sense.

All my original post in reply was saying was that there is far more to consider for the merchant of Zalanthas than just the profit to be made.  Even when it's unethical, or unfair, consequences for relatively small things can fuck said merchant over, and most take the care to insure that doesn't happen.  This is one way that makes sense.  Then again...right now there's no enforced liability against the action...but still.

It just makes a lot more sense to me, this way, than the pure profit point of view.  Survival>profit.

[Aaron Goulet]

Sorry, my post was a jest.   You make a sound point.

[Synthesis]

tl;dr: Aaron Goulet is just makin' shit up.

Am not. 

As Synth was the guy arguing that some indies just need four apartments to do their thing back when they instituted the limit, I doubt he's an impartial party in this discussion.

That argument was about multiple apartments in the same city, so the citizen vs. non-citizen discussion isn't particularly relevant to that.

[Marshmellow]

I think you're forgetting one thing, Armaddict, a templar would have to go for ALL of Nenyuk because the clan will back the vendor that has no reason to suspect someone of being a spy.  Is one lone blue robe going to go on a crusade against the entire clan/family?  I doubt it, considering they're holding all of his/her money at the moment, not to mention that they can confiscate anything s/he and his/her minions have in apartments.  Would a red robe?  Still, doubtful.

Yes, templars wield amazing power by virtue of their ties to the city state, but Nenyuk like all of the GMHs are neutral.  If they have no reason to suspect that someone was a spy, or even if they did have a reason but wish to protest innocence, is it really worth it for that templar to alienate an entire GMH?  I don't think so.

[Nao]

There's always going to be some run-down, crappy apartments that Nenyuk would be happy to rent to just about anyone willing to pay for it. Because it's very hard to get -anyone- with even a bit of coin to live in those.

[Armaddict]

I think you're forgetting one thing, Armaddict, a templar would have to go for ALL of Nenyuk because the clan will back the vendor that has no reason to suspect someone of being a spy.  Is one lone blue robe going to go on a crusade against the entire clan/family?  I doubt it, considering they're holding all of his/her money at the moment, not to mention that they can confiscate anything s/he and his/her minions have in apartments.  Would a red robe?  Still, doubtful.

Uhm.  Not really.  I've seen templars, and the templarate, go after singular merchant family members before, and it wasn't even that weird.  It turns into a mess of politics, sure...but 1.  That clan and family becomes royally fucked the moment they turn their allowances (they are not powers, they are allowed to conduct those activities as a merchant house within their places of business, i.e. city-states) into tools for power struggle against the people granting the allowances, and 2. Singular merchants within houses are targeted not -often-, but often enough, and their actions, when leading to true displeasure, generally are disavowed by their family, and that family is allowed to determine punishment so long as it satisfies the templar.

However.  What should also be noted is that mine is an example of where it makes sense, not the end all be all reasonable nature of it, which cannot be directly alluded to aside from that you are in a world where everything commercial is based around profiting in a world dominated by a pair of immortal sorcerers who occasionally duke it out, but mostly just insure their wrath is feared.  To assume a form of pure capitalism with no risk incurred for showing a lack of fear of that wrath is hardly fitting for the setting.

Edited to add:  I think I should make it clear I'm not really demanding this happen.  Just thought that it was a nifty idea to make citizenship more sought after and useful, as well as a showing of some of the above relationships, none of which are staff-backed or anything.  Purely my own vision of things.

[Marshmellow]

I've seen it too and always think it has been done poorly because people forget that a GMH controls quite a bit of wealth and power the world over and the templars should know that but ignore it.

[Barzalene]

I think both things may be true. A single templar would not take on a whole merchant house, but a single merchant or agent is not a whole merchant house and do we really want them to be bullet-proof? So, it depends a lot on how said templar terrorizes/shakes down gmh member and how high up they are, and who they are, and how charismatic they are, and what they're shaken down for.

Also, I think that some shaking down might be considered the cost of doing business, and ignored unless it goes too far.


I remember when I played Shome I was encouraged by Imms  one side to demand everything for free and by Imms on the other to shut up and pay for shit. (This was way way back when they were imms, you see.)

[Scarecrow]

I don't think citizenship should be something someone can just purchase like a new jozhal hide belt. Otherwise, rich folks and clan leader types would end up being citizens  of everywhere, which doesn't seem right to me.
I like how it is in Tuluk, to try and get citizenship.
However, I wouldn't see any reason why a foreign person might be made to pay 25% more for a rental. A sort of Foreigner Tax. In the lands of Zalanthas it does sound like something that would be done, particularly in Allanak and Tuluk.