Citizenship-Only Apartments

[Sephiroto]

Marshmellow's complaint about all the apartments in Red Storm being routinely taken got me started thinking of what could be done to help alleviate some of the apartment over-crowding in the cities.  The consensus is that in places like Red Storm, a lot of the apartments are being rented by people who are hardly ever in the city.  This often leaves people who want to roleplay in Red Storm regularly with no places to rent.

What IF a fraction of the apartment buildings in each city required citizenship to rent.  Does anyone think this would do much to help the problem?  It would certainly alter the importance of citizenship selection on character creation.

[Lizzie]

Or perhaps, people clanned by any of the three GMHs could be prevented from renting out apartments, because they have their own compounds in RSV where they can come and go, and non-clannies are prevented from going.

[Wolfsong]

Personally, I love the idea of citizen-only apartments for all cities IG, but I'd prefer them to be in majority. Let the foreigners live in ghettos with the rest of the undesireables.

[Barsook]

Or perhaps, people clanned by any of the three GMHs could be prevented from renting out apartments, because they have their own compounds in RSV where they can come and go, and non-clannies are prevented from going.

I dig this idea more than the other idea.

[Cutthroat]

I like Sephiroto's idea, but what makes a citizen? In Tuluk the caste tattoos separate citizens from non-citizens. In Allanak and Red Storm there isn't anything similar given to all citizens of a city. There is no good way for the landlord to tell whether you're a citizen or not, unless you happened to be wearing the livery or uniform of a clan that only hires citizens of that city, and even then it's not certain.

Or perhaps, people clanned by any of the three GMHs could be prevented from renting out apartments, because they have their own compounds in RSV where they can come and go, and non-clannies are prevented from going.

Good idea. There are already rules about renting apartments for some roles, but it isn't enforced by the code. It most likely doesn't need to be enforced by the code even if a similar rule is expanded to other roles.

[Nao]

I don't like this at all. While some people may not live in Storm, they may still go back there regularly and have a good reason to rent an apartment - even in the GMH if they're hiding something from their house. If there's not enough, make more available.
However, I've not had a problem getting one if I was willing to wait a few days. I know for a fact that all apartments haven't been rented for long in RS - maybe the OP just needs a bit more patience?

[lepxii]

If this is actually an issue, there is a much simpler solution - add an additional building.

[Talia]

If this is actually an issue, there is a much simpler solution - add an additional building kill someone.

FTFY

[Travel Cake]

Nao is correct.

[Riya OniSenshi]

I wouldn't mind an automated citizenship process (like Liur's), but that's another topic, I guess.

Now that people can only rent one apartment per building, I've not seen a shortage of availible places if one was willing to wait a bit and not be dead-set on only living in one specific place only.

[lepxii]

If this is actually an issue, there is a much simpler solution - add an additional building kill someone.

FTFY

Yipee - HRPT!!! 

[Armaddict]

I think ONLY citizens should be renting apartments.

Any other option is a risk to the security of the city state.

[Marshmellow]

Some apartments should only be rented by citizens, if you ask me, but the ones in Storm, I don't think that applies.  Too many people move to their, hide out and that's their new home.  They shouldn't be denied apartments.  I only asked that people remember that it's something of a douchebag move to get an apartment in Storm when their character is rarely in Storm.  That's all.

[Bogre]

Or perhaps, people clanned by any of the three GMHs could be prevented from renting out apartments, because they have their own compounds in RSV where they can come and go, and non-clannies are prevented from going.

I dig this idea more than the other idea.

This only restricts GMH employees from a) planning subterfuge in their apartments and b) keeping loot to keep the burglars fed.

Anything that pushes players into a compound rather than out in the world is a bad thing, imo.

[Bogre]

Addendum: If that limitation is specifically for RS, it would perhaps be okay.

[a strange shadow]

My solution would require more building up-front, but it would be far more ideal, IMO...

Inn rooms. Rentable by the day, for up to 55 days in advance (5 weeks, or approx. 4 RL days). You could renew your stay, of course, but if you stayed much longer than that it'd be more cost-efficient to rent an apartment. Still, they would be relatively cheap, small, and quit-safe. You could stash stuff there temporarily (say, you've come to trade and only want to stay a few weeks, but have too many goods to carry around with you the whole time), you could meet someone there for a plot, liason, whatever.

In short, they would fill a more temporary niche that, currently, entire apartments are the only option for - thus freeing up the more long-term places for people who actually intend to live there.

[jhunter]

At first I was down with the OP's idea -and- the idea of clannies being restricted but after some of the points brought up, I changed my mind. I support the addition of more rentable apartments or "kill someone" to solve the issue.

[EldritchOrigins]

In my day there were no apartments and we liked it.  Apartments aren't necessary, they're a convenience.  I'd rather there were less/no apartments and people had to join clans instead to get secure housing/storage.

[Gunnerblaster]

Jack up the prices.

[Barsook]

My solution would require more building up-front, but it would be far more ideal, IMO...

Inn rooms. Rentable by the day, for up to 55 days in advance (5 weeks, or approx. 4 RL days). You could renew your stay, of course, but if you stayed much longer than that it'd be more cost-efficient to rent an apartment. Still, they would be relatively cheap, small, and quit-safe. You could stash stuff there temporarily (say, you've come to trade and only want to stay a few weeks, but have too many goods to carry around with you the whole time), you could meet someone there for a plot, liason, whatever.

In short, they would fill a more temporary niche that, currently, entire apartments are the only option for - thus freeing up the more long-term places for people who actually intend to live there.

That idea could work, but how would you code that?

[Marshmellow]

Same as apartments are coded but with different defaults for how long you're renting the room for and different prices.

[wizturbo]

I don't see much of a need to have more private apartments in Red Storm.  Maybe just make the alley's less INSANELY DANGEROUS and then people could use them for their private/shady/illegal dealings.

I mean come on, who doesn't want to meet a spiced out grebber in the bar and take her on back to the alley?  That's some great RP there!  :p

[EldritchOrigins]

I guess it's the old argument of realism vs. gameplay.  I guess since apartments are already in, it makes no sense to remove them (as my previous post alluded to).  But some things that would help with apartments are these:

Rent prices should scale the number of apartments available.  With increasing prices as the apartment building fills up.  If there is only one apartment available for rent, it would cost it's most to rent.  This would help reflect supply/demand.  If there aren't many apartments rented somewhere, there is probably a reason.  If they are all full up, I'm sure the land lord would milk the prices for all he/she/it could so they'd increase prices, and who's to stop them?  I don't think templars (or other powers that be) care much about the fair business practices or treatment of tenants.

Only allow new tenants rent for a small periods of time, slowly increasing the maximum rent period over time.  Either this or restrict players with low play times from renting for very long.  Many "fresh" players (and that is to say players with less than a few days play time) will rent apartments right away.  Then said player either quickly dies, or quits logging on (except to pay the rent, so they can hold the apartment).  This would help to keep apartments in the hands of players that will use them.

[Synthesis]

If we got rid of all the magicker classes, all the apartments in Red Storm would free up instantly.

[Case]

If we got rid of all the magicker classes, all the apartments in Red Storm would free up instantly.

Seconding this solution.

[Barsook]

If we got rid of all the magicker classes, all the apartments in Red Storm would free up instantly.

Seconding this solution.

Thriding it.

[Wolfsong]

I still support that the majority of apartments in any city should be citizen only - especially the higher end apartments.

[Archbaron]

Thriding it.

[Sam]

I think it should be different than citizenship.

I think it should be by affiliation.

Noble Houses and Legion get the top apartments.
Merchant Houses and Bardic Circles get the middle tier.
Byn and other rabble get the bottom tier.

Now a bard that is in good with a noble house would have access to the better apartments.

All of the tiers would still be roughly the same cost, but you would, obviously, have better nieghbors.

[Sam]

Oh, and lose your employment, get locked out of your apartment.

[Taven]

Or perhaps, people clanned by any of the three GMHs could be prevented from renting out apartments, because they have their own compounds in RSV where they can come and go, and non-clannies are prevented from going.

Good idea. There are already rules about renting apartments for some roles, but it isn't enforced by the code. It most likely doesn't need to be enforced by the code even if a similar rule is expanded to other roles.

I think that works fine for Red Storm, but I would oppose something similar being done in either city-state.

I think ONLY citizens should be renting apartments.

Any other option is a risk to the security of the city state.

Do you think that only citizens should be the main renters on apartments, or only citizens should be allowed to be on the rent list, period? If it's the latter, I disagree. I think that if you're running a group that travels between cities, you should at least be able to be a co-renter on an apartment, if somebody who is a citizen can vouch for you.

I like Sephiroto's idea, but what makes a citizen? In Tuluk the caste tattoos separate citizens from non-citizens. In Allanak and Red Storm there isn't anything similar given to all citizens of a city. There is no good way for the landlord to tell whether you're a citizen or not, unless you happened to be wearing the livery or uniform of a clan that only hires citizens of that city, and even then it's not certain.

This is another valid point.

(Fixed a grammar error)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

My solution would require more building up-front, but it would be far more ideal, IMO...

Inn rooms. Rentable by the day, for up to 55 days in advance (5 weeks, or approx. 4 RL days). You could renew your stay, of course, but if you stayed much longer than that it'd be more cost-efficient to rent an apartment. Still, they would be relatively cheap, small, and quit-safe. You could stash stuff there temporarily (say, you've come to trade and only want to stay a few weeks, but have too many goods to carry around with you the whole time), you could meet someone there for a plot, liason, whatever.

In short, they would fill a more temporary niche that, currently, entire apartments are the only option for - thus freeing up the more long-term places for people who actually intend to live there.

I am so greatly in favor of this. The fact that the taverns don't have rentable rooms, even in those described as having upstairs spaces, has always insanely annoyed me. The Trader should have a bevy of these rooms. So should the Sanctuary. Plus several inn buildings could be put in as well. I should be able to rent a furnished room for my mudsex or crafting or overnight stay or whatever if I wanna, and it should have a piece of sleeping furniture in it, not just a damn table.

For the love of God, staff. Do this.

[Scarecrow]

I like the idea of making more apartment buildings. I like apartments, because I have a tendancy to hoard vast caches of items and stick them in my house to admire later.
But in response to recent discussions, I have decided now that if I don't feasibly expect to return to the apartment, I will rent release it so someone who needs it can use it.

[Bogre]

Mmmh, Inn Rooms.

Reminds me of Baldur's gate.

[BleakOne]

I like Baldur's Gate Inn rooms.

Commoner, Merchant, Noble and King suites.

I always go King... 

[Gunnerblaster]

Leave the prices normal for citizens.

Double the prices for non-citizens.

[Jingo]

If we got rid of all the magicker classes, all the apartments in Red Storm would free up instantly.

It honestly isn't as safe as you think.

[Sephiroto]

Inn rooms would be nice.

I liked the idea of some citizenship-only perks as a way to make citizenship more important than it currently is.  Metagaming, some people choose to start in Allanak for coded and non-coded citizenship benefits there and then truck it to Red Storm since there are, as far as I know, no coded drawbacks for citizens vs. non-citizens there.  This might apply to Luirs and other outposts also.  I understand that currently there's pretty much no way to differentiate citizens from the non in any city except Tuluk.  It seems like in a tribal-esque world like Arm, citizenship or affiliation would be more important.  Food for thought, I guess.

[Synthesis]

Metagaming, some people choose to start in Allanak for coded and non-coded citizenship benefits there and then truck it to Red Storm since there are, as far as I know, no coded drawbacks for citizens vs. non-citizens there.

Uh, there are only 2 major exploits that involve moving to Red Storm, and neither involves citizenship.

I suspect that the vast majority of folks who live and work out of Red Storm who were born elsewhere do so because they are persona non grata in their hometown, not because they're gaming the citizenship code.  That's just silly.

[Rhyden]

My solution would require more building up-front, but it would be far more ideal, IMO...

Inn rooms. Rentable by the day, for up to 55 days in advance (5 weeks, or approx. 4 RL days). You could renew your stay, of course, but if you stayed much longer than that it'd be more cost-efficient to rent an apartment. Still, they would be relatively cheap, small, and quit-safe. You could stash stuff there temporarily (say, you've come to trade and only want to stay a few weeks, but have too many goods to carry around with you the whole time), you could meet someone there for a plot, liason, whatever.

In short, they would fill a more temporary niche that, currently, entire apartments are the only option for - thus freeing up the more long-term places for people who actually intend to live there.

I am so greatly in favor of this. The fact that the taverns don't have rentable rooms, even in those described as having upstairs spaces, has always insanely annoyed me. The Trader should have a bevy of these rooms. So should the Sanctuary. Plus several inn buildings could be put in as well. I should be able to rent a furnished room for my mudsex or crafting or overnight stay or whatever if I wanna, and it should have a piece of sleeping furniture in it, not just a damn table.

For the love of God, staff. Do this.

Yes.

This idea is so amazing it deserves its own thread. I'd do it but I have nothing more to add.

[Barzalene]

My solution would require more building up-front, but it would be far more ideal, IMO...

Inn rooms. Rentable by the day, for up to 55 days in advance (5 weeks, or approx. 4 RL days). You could renew your stay, of course, but if you stayed much longer than that it'd be more cost-efficient to rent an apartment. Still, they would be relatively cheap, small, and quit-safe. You could stash stuff there temporarily (say, you've come to trade and only want to stay a few weeks, but have too many goods to carry around with you the whole time), you could meet someone there for a plot, liason, whatever.

In short, they would fill a more temporary niche that, currently, entire apartments are the only option for - thus freeing up the more long-term places for people who actually intend to live there.

I am so greatly in favor of this. The fact that the taverns don't have rentable rooms, even in those described as having upstairs spaces, has always insanely annoyed me. The Trader should have a bevy of these rooms. So should the Sanctuary. Plus several inn buildings could be put in as well. I should be able to rent a furnished room for my mudsex or crafting or overnight stay or whatever if I wanna, and it should have a piece of sleeping furniture in it, not just a damn table.

For the love of God, staff. Do this.

Yes.

This idea is so amazing it deserves its own thread. I'd do it but I have nothing more to add.

Me too.

[X-D]

Heh, I prefer the Talia method.

Done it many times.

[Sam]

What if it was possible to buy out the rent?

Pay so much and you can buy the apartment out from under people that havn't visited in the past half month.

[Synthesis]

What if it was possible to buy out the rent?

Pay so much and you can buy the apartment out from under people that havn't visited in the past half month.

Eh, that doesn't really make sense.  Nenyuk doesn't give a rat's ass whether someone is actually living there or not, as long as the rent's getting paid.

What -might- make sense is being able to outbid someone.  Say, for instance...the apartment's base rate is 500, but you bid it up to 750 and those greedy Nenyukis evict the current occupant, and you're stuck paying 750 'sid a month.  Of course, if this sort of thing were implemented, the Salt Flats would be stripped bare, and all the glass and obsidian in the Known World would be strip-mined in a matter of a few IC years, and the Allanaki economy would collapse.

[Lizzie]

Yeah raising prices on things doesn't really do anything to solve problems with rentals. All it does, is encourage spam-crafting, spam-burglaring, spam-hunting and spam-grebbing for valueables, and lock out people who refuse to or can't spam their way to fame and fortune. Part of the problem now, is that it's so easy for people who -do- spam, to handle rentals. This will just raise the bar of spammage.

[Goldberry]

Yeah raising prices on things doesn't really do anything to solve problems with rentals. All it does, is encourage spam-crafting, spam-burglaring, spam-hunting and spam-grebbing for valueables, and lock out people who refuse to or can't spam their way to fame and fortune. Part of the problem now, is that it's so easy for people who -do- spam, to handle rentals. This will just raise the bar of spammage.

[Aaron Goulet]

I think it should be different than citizenship.

I think it should be by affiliation.

Noble Houses and Legion get the top apartments.
Merchant Houses and Bardic Circles get the middle tier.
Byn and other rabble get the bottom tier.

Now a bard that is in good with a noble house would have access to the better apartments.

All of the tiers would still be roughly the same cost, but you would, obviously, have better nieghbors.

I like this idea.

I'm not opposed to apartments being citizen-only, so long as citizenship can be purchased (for a hefty sum).  Alternately, the suggestion of making renting for non-citizens more expensive than it is for citizens isn't a bad idea either.

[Zoan]

The only problem is, ladies and gents, is that House Nenyuk straight-up doesn't care who gives them coin, so long as they be given coin.

[Sam]

House Nenyuk does care who they give apartments to.

If House Nenyuk treated every humanoid the same in a city, the Nobles would have something to say. Nenyuk would want to give favors and receive favors. If they let skinnies into their most expensive buildings, someone else or more will move out to get away from that sort.

[Nao]

House Nenyuk does care who they give apartments to.

If House Nenyuk treated every humanoid the same in a city, the Nobles would have something to say. Nenyuk would want to give favors and receive favors. If they let skinnies into their most expensive buildings, someone else or more will move out to get away from that sort.

Most neckers just wouldn't have the money. Also, Nobles and very rich people typically can afford their own property and don't need to rent an apartment? Or they might rent an entire house, which means you don't have to deal with skinnies living across the hall.

[X-D]

House Nenyuk does not care who they give -Those- apartments to.

[Aaron Goulet]

If you start letting northron scum rent in your fancy Allanaki apartment building (or vice versa), you risk devaluing your rentals and/or upsetting your tenants.

[Lizzie]

If you start letting northron scum rent in your fancy Allanaki apartment building (or vice versa), you risk devaluing your rentals and/or upsetting your tenants.

Sounds good, but past history proves it false. With one exception that I know of, Nenyuk doesn't give a damn who pays the rent, as long as someone is paying it. PCs will NOT stop renting apartments, just because the guy downstairs at the opposite end of the hall has the wrong inks. PCs need storage. And they've proven willing to pay for it. PCs need mudsex rooms. And they've proven willing to pay for it. PCs need safe city-based sparring spots where there's no crimflag to worry about. And they've proven willing to pay for it. The statement about northron scum and fancy Nakki apartments is just - untrue, and impractical. Nenyuk has the monopoly on apartments, AND on city-based currency. Nenyuk determines the value of apartments, not its tenants. There is no supply/demand. There is only demand/payment. You can refuse to rent in a Nenyuk apartment, or you can pay whatever Nenyuk tells you that you'll pay, and live in the same building as whoever Nenyuk says you live with. With that one exception, which I believe is IC info.

[Sam]

Nenyuk can't just own property in a City-state. They are allowed to be the middle man. They are allowed to lease that property from either the Temlerate or the Nobles. I would bet that Nenyuk would reap all kinds of benefits from discounting rooms to militiamen, the slaving houses, the other people that would then give kickbacks and back-pats to Nenyuk. Corruption and unfairness would go a long way towards furthering Nenyuk's goals. Since you know, if Nenyuk treats the well-to-do's badly, they may find some -reinforced- competition down the road.

They would also do a better job maintaining those apartment for their well-to-do tenants than those apartment renting to a clan of skinnies, or a weird group of stumps.

[Synthesis]

1. I wouldn't discount the negative effects you could experience by angering "a clan of skinnies." 

2. I think that, by and large, the GMHs have maintained much of their power and their ability to work throughout the Known World by maintaining at least the outward appearance of neutrality.

3. Also, nobles have estates, so they don't need apartments...and their employees have perfectly functional barracks, that serve a dual purpose of being relatively cheap.  (What, is our barracks not good enough for you, recruit? Perhaps you'd like to go back to sleeping in the Gaj.)  I doubt the noble Houses want to expend political capital on buttering up Nenyuk just so their employees can have a nicer place to spend their evenings.

[Niamh]

More apartment buildings?  Perhaps the reason there have been no more new ones built is because there is no room for it.  Red Storm is a small village, after all.  Nenyuk doesn't even have a bank there.

Alleys in Red Storm too dangerous?  Apparently not.  There have been a number of times when I've found people using the aggressive NPCs in there as sparring dummies, or ways to get free loot.

[KankWhisperer]

So if I got a citizen to initially rent with me then murdered them, would I be kicked off the rent?

[Sam]

Yes sir.

[Aaron Goulet]

If you start letting northron scum rent in your fancy Allanaki apartment building (or vice versa), you risk devaluing your rentals and/or upsetting your tenants.

Sounds good, but past history proves it false. With one exception that I know of, Nenyuk doesn't give a damn who pays the rent, as long as someone is paying it. PCs will NOT stop renting apartments, just because the guy downstairs at the opposite end of the hall has the wrong inks. PCs need storage. And they've proven willing to pay for it. PCs need mudsex rooms. And they've proven willing to pay for it. PCs need safe city-based sparring spots where there's no crimflag to worry about. And they've proven willing to pay for it. The statement about northron scum and fancy Nakki apartments is just - untrue, and impractical. Nenyuk has the monopoly on apartments, AND on city-based currency. Nenyuk determines the value of apartments, not its tenants. There is no supply/demand. There is only demand/payment. You can refuse to rent in a Nenyuk apartment, or you can pay whatever Nenyuk tells you that you'll pay, and live in the same building as whoever Nenyuk says you live with. With that one exception, which I believe is IC info.

I'm not sure it's so cut and dry, especially with the PC-represented portion of the world that you are focusing on.  Let's, for the sake of argument, examine the following points:

• Nenyuk profits from less turnover, as it means apartments spend less time unoccupied and more time earning money.
• 'Rinthers, elves, and other undesireables tend not to live as long as clanned characters.
• 'Rinthers, elves, and other undesireables are ICly more likely to have trouble coming up with their next payment.
• PCs tend to move when their belongings get repeatedly stolen (prior PCs of mine have helped their buddies move from one apartment to another on more than one occasion).
• 'Rinthers, elves, and undesireables are more likely to steal.

Assuming the above points are all true, then Nenyuk's apartments would spend more time vacant (and less time earning money) if they treated all renters equally.  I don't think that they would cut the less desirable segment out of the picture, but they might charge them more on a monthly basis; think of it as the Zalanthan equivalent to paying more on a security deposit if you have bad credit or a bad rental history.

Here is a (hypothetical) pricing guide:

Renter	Pricing
Unclanned Foreigner/Elf/'Rinth Rat	125%
Unclanned Citizen	100%
Clanned Foreigner	100%
Clanned Citizen	75%

Also, I would like to address a few points I saw made while reading this thread:

Why would Nenyuk give clanned people a break?
I can think of three good reasons to justify it:  Firstly, clanned characters, as mentioned before, tend to live a llittle longer.  More importantly, they have a stable, consistent income that can be counted on.  They tend to be less likely to cause trouble (they have more to lose than spending a night in a jail cell).  A side benefit (but not a real reason) is that Nenyuk gains a little favor with the local houses.  Someone mentioned GMH's maintaining neutrality, but that doesn't mean that they have nothing to gain from being on everyone's good side equally.

I also think this helps make up for the fact that clanned characters (with the exception of some GMH PCs) make less money than independents.  This way, they have a better shot at having a place of their own.

Why do clanned people need apartments, anyway? (TANGENT)
Clanned PCs have no privacy.  Pushing mudsex COMPLETELY aside here, there are several reasons for wanting privacy, from sekret meetings to just wanting to escape the turmoil of the barracks .  People also enjoy having apartments because it gives them something to decorate (I'm guilty of this).  But mostly, barracks tend to feel crowded, cluttered, and offer little room for customization...  And you will never be able to call it "your" space.

The Reader's Digest Version (tl;dr):

Unreliable and/or undesirable renters are less profitable than reliable and desirable ones, even if they pay a little less.  Everyone should be able to rent an apartment, but the pricing should vary according to how desirable they are as a renter.

THE END

[Synthesis]

tl;dr: Aaron Goulet is just makin' shit up.

[Aaron Goulet]

tl;dr: Aaron Goulet is just makin' shit up.

Am not. 

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Aaron, you get cool points for your breakdown above. I like it. I support it.

[Armaddict]

With a cute singsong as he places his knife on the table, The vicious, bastard templar asks the nenyuki vendor, in sirihish:
 "Care to tell me how that northron spy kept all of that shit here, in this apartment I now hold you in, without any suspicion from you, or even an indication to His templarate that there was someone to watch LIVING here?"


Your breakdown works way better in a free city-state.

[hyzhenhok]

tl;dr: Aaron Goulet is just makin' shit up.

Am not. 

As Synth was the guy arguing that some indies just need four apartments to do their thing back when they instituted the limit, I doubt he's an impartial party in this discussion.

[Aaron Goulet]

With a cute singsong as he places his knife on the table, The vicious, bastard templar asks the nenyuki vendor, in sirihish:
 "Care to tell me how that northron spy kept all of that shit here, in this apartment I now hold you in, without any suspicion from you, or even an indication to His templarate that there was someone to watch LIVING here?"


Your breakdown works way better in a free city-state.

Adding, the vicious, bastard templar says to the Nenyuki vendor, in sirihish:
  "I hope you overcharged him, at least."

[Armaddict]

With a cute singsong as he places his knife on the table, The vicious, bastard templar asks the nenyuki vendor, in sirihish:
 "Care to tell me how that northron spy kept all of that shit here, in this apartment I now hold you in, without any suspicion from you, or even an indication to His templarate that there was someone to watch LIVING here?"


Your breakdown works way better in a free city-state.

Adding, the vicious, bastard templar says to the Nenyuki vendor, in sirihish:
  "I hope you overcharged him, at least."

That would assume a working relationship, which assumes that there is working together, which they do, so I assume there is...which is why I say it's a good idea, because it would only make even more sense.

All my original post in reply was saying was that there is far more to consider for the merchant of Zalanthas than just the profit to be made.  Even when it's unethical, or unfair, consequences for relatively small things can fuck said merchant over, and most take the care to insure that doesn't happen.  This is one way that makes sense.  Then again...right now there's no enforced liability against the action...but still.

It just makes a lot more sense to me, this way, than the pure profit point of view.  Survival>profit.

[Aaron Goulet]

Sorry, my post was a jest.   You make a sound point.

[Synthesis]

tl;dr: Aaron Goulet is just makin' shit up.

Am not. 

As Synth was the guy arguing that some indies just need four apartments to do their thing back when they instituted the limit, I doubt he's an impartial party in this discussion.

That argument was about multiple apartments in the same city, so the citizen vs. non-citizen discussion isn't particularly relevant to that.

[Marshmellow]

I think you're forgetting one thing, Armaddict, a templar would have to go for ALL of Nenyuk because the clan will back the vendor that has no reason to suspect someone of being a spy.  Is one lone blue robe going to go on a crusade against the entire clan/family?  I doubt it, considering they're holding all of his/her money at the moment, not to mention that they can confiscate anything s/he and his/her minions have in apartments.  Would a red robe?  Still, doubtful.

Yes, templars wield amazing power by virtue of their ties to the city state, but Nenyuk like all of the GMHs are neutral.  If they have no reason to suspect that someone was a spy, or even if they did have a reason but wish to protest innocence, is it really worth it for that templar to alienate an entire GMH?  I don't think so.

[Nao]

There's always going to be some run-down, crappy apartments that Nenyuk would be happy to rent to just about anyone willing to pay for it. Because it's very hard to get -anyone- with even a bit of coin to live in those.

[Armaddict]

I think you're forgetting one thing, Armaddict, a templar would have to go for ALL of Nenyuk because the clan will back the vendor that has no reason to suspect someone of being a spy.  Is one lone blue robe going to go on a crusade against the entire clan/family?  I doubt it, considering they're holding all of his/her money at the moment, not to mention that they can confiscate anything s/he and his/her minions have in apartments.  Would a red robe?  Still, doubtful.

Uhm.  Not really.  I've seen templars, and the templarate, go after singular merchant family members before, and it wasn't even that weird.  It turns into a mess of politics, sure...but 1.  That clan and family becomes royally fucked the moment they turn their allowances (they are not powers, they are allowed to conduct those activities as a merchant house within their places of business, i.e. city-states) into tools for power struggle against the people granting the allowances, and 2. Singular merchants within houses are targeted not -often-, but often enough, and their actions, when leading to true displeasure, generally are disavowed by their family, and that family is allowed to determine punishment so long as it satisfies the templar.

However.  What should also be noted is that mine is an example of where it makes sense, not the end all be all reasonable nature of it, which cannot be directly alluded to aside from that you are in a world where everything commercial is based around profiting in a world dominated by a pair of immortal sorcerers who occasionally duke it out, but mostly just insure their wrath is feared.  To assume a form of pure capitalism with no risk incurred for showing a lack of fear of that wrath is hardly fitting for the setting.

Edited to add:  I think I should make it clear I'm not really demanding this happen.  Just thought that it was a nifty idea to make citizenship more sought after and useful, as well as a showing of some of the above relationships, none of which are staff-backed or anything.  Purely my own vision of things.

[Marshmellow]

I've seen it too and always think it has been done poorly because people forget that a GMH controls quite a bit of wealth and power the world over and the templars should know that but ignore it.

[Barzalene]

I think both things may be true. A single templar would not take on a whole merchant house, but a single merchant or agent is not a whole merchant house and do we really want them to be bullet-proof? So, it depends a lot on how said templar terrorizes/shakes down gmh member and how high up they are, and who they are, and how charismatic they are, and what they're shaken down for.

Also, I think that some shaking down might be considered the cost of doing business, and ignored unless it goes too far.


I remember when I played Shome I was encouraged by Imms  one side to demand everything for free and by Imms on the other to shut up and pay for shit. (This was way way back when they were imms, you see.)

[Scarecrow]

I don't think citizenship should be something someone can just purchase like a new jozhal hide belt. Otherwise, rich folks and clan leader types would end up being citizens  of everywhere, which doesn't seem right to me.
I like how it is in Tuluk, to try and get citizenship.
However, I wouldn't see any reason why a foreign person might be made to pay 25% more for a rental. A sort of Foreigner Tax. In the lands of Zalanthas it does sound like something that would be done, particularly in Allanak and Tuluk.