lawman assassins and crim code

[Scarecrow]

I just thought of something, related to a question I asked the staff which was answered very clearly and nicely (thank you Talia) 

Do you think it is a little, ugh... "codey" and twinkish for a law authority PC (such a member of His  Arm) who is an assassin for the said authority, to be able to assassin strike from the shadows, and no matter what you do or how you do it, the poor victim will always get  crim coded, and  the assassin be free to lay into you, now of course with the hulking soldiers and guards plowing into the fight as well.
It just seems a little unfair, and codedly, nothing stops the assassin from just wandering into the tavern, stabbing you (with soldier assisstance) and walking away without any form of danger or challenge.
In my opinion, a backstab strike should always crim code the assassin if it's done in a authority zone, even if the stabber is a militiaman themself. What do you think?

[MeTekillot]

Why do you keep thinking up situations where someone with law authority twinks out with their use of law code...?

[jstorrie]

If you're living in America or Canada or England and a policeman tries to ambush and murder you, then yes, that should be illegal.

But if an agent of the Sun Legions/Arm of the Dragon sticks a blade in you, they're acting with the legal authority of their God-King. You're fucked. If they abuse that authority, it'll get taken away, but so long as they have it, it's theirs to use. If some PC is causing a problem because he's a lowly recruit or private backstabbing behind the shield of authority, he'll get slapped down by his superiors; if he's actually supposed to be out there stabbing people, the only ones who'll get slapped down are his victims.

In short: I disagree with you. The city states are ruled by brutality and oppression. Watch your back.

[Cutthroat]

Sometimes a backstabbing militiaman shouldn't get crimflagged.

The suggestion is based on the premise that this is an abuse of the code. I would suggest it's an abuse only if the attacker isn't in uniform, and therefore can't be identified as a soldier by other soldiers in case the fight spills out onto the street. Also, basically, what jstorrie said.

A better solution if you're in this position is probably to get your clanning taken away while you're not in uniform, doing dirty work, and then get your clanning back after it's done. Staff/superiors should be able to help with this.

[brytta.leofa]

And if he's really working undercover, the Arm is probably aware of it at some level.  In the America, undercover cops occasionally get entangled with their uniformed brethren, but I assume that they try to keep things coordinated.  There's no reason that the militia, with psionics being common and all that, couldn't do the same thing.  Might be a good thing for sneaky soldiers to keep in mind.

[Synthesis]

I seem to recall that you don't actually get a crim-flag from an AoD-clanned person attacking you until you take your first swing back at them.  I vaguely recall sapping some fellow (as militia) and him fleeing before he actually swung back, thereby escaping the crim-flag.  Another time, I sapped someone and immediately knocked them out, and the jailer wouldn't accept them because they hadn't got the crim-flag, because they went instantly to 0 stun rather than counterattacking. If my recollection here is accurate, it seems that nosave combat would indeed protect you from being incriminated by a militia PC attacking you.

However, this would've been sometime between 2002 and 2004, so my memory of events may not be entirely accurate.

[Scarecrow]

Thank you, that's some interesting feedback. It's true what jstorrie said though, watch your back. Probably the best protection really.

[Marshmellow]

As was recently brought up in the Shame thread, I've played in the AoD and I've played a templar, though I won't say which.

As a Templar with the power to promote, you still are not allowed to promote someone past the Recruit rank without staff approval.  This is to prevent exactly what you fear, Scarecrow.  They won't allow promotions of people that have shown they will abuse such power.  They are also, surely, keeping an eye on things for just such abuse.

Don't worry.  The staff are looking out for everyone.

[Lenny Poppo]

i think that it makes sense for a law assassin to get away with the deed

perhaps a new skill is needed for something like this, for example

lawstab <target>

Using your knowledge of the law, you openly tackle the criminal and stab him in the spine!


this would allow only law assasins to get away with the kill and there would be no crim flag to worry about

[brytta.leofa]

i think that it makes sense for a law assassin to get away with the deed

We missed you, Lenny!

This is possible already; fully-enlisted soldiers do not normally get incriminated for anything they do, even backstabbing.

[Agnor]

I would think that even if they "abused" the bug, it may actually be fine if it would be in character for them to do so. There are examples of crooked cops in our world all over the place, in a place like Zalanthas I could definitely see that being much worse.

I could easily see someone spotting a 'rinther with some very valuable property, which was clearly "Stolen a week ago from a good friend of the lawman's sir, just ask him he will back me up", being knocked unconcious so that the noble lawman could recover the stolen property of their friends once in a while. After all, who will the higher ups believe, their amazing recruit, who has been valiantly serving for a year now, or the scummy 'rinther who clearly should not be able to afford such a classy item?

If I'm right about this, anything to fix this occurring would stop this too.

Someone let me know if this would be wrong though.

[brytta.leofa]

I could easily see someone spotting a 'rinther with some very valuable property, which was clearly "Stolen a week ago from a good friend of the lawman's sir, just ask him he will back me up", being knocked unconcious so that the noble lawman could recover the stolen property of their friends once in a while. After all, who will the higher ups believe, their amazing recruit, who has been valiantly serving for a year now, or the scummy 'rinther who clearly should not be able to afford such a classy item?

Two things:

(1) This can't be said often enough: if you are playing a soldier, attacking someone is usually an instant death sentence for him.  You don't knock a 'rinther unconscious; you initiate combat and all your NPC buddies join in.  Please don't do this except under extraordinary circumstances.

(2) People who play soldiers, just like everybody else, tend to overestimate their PCs' importance.  A yearling recruit still has next to no status; if he's doing anything that could cause a problem for his superiors, his superiors had better be (a) in on the plan beforehand and (b) getting a cut.

[wizturbo]

It's fine as it is.  You don't get crimflagged unless you attack back, and only Templars can incriminate you even if you don't visibily commit a crime in front of NPCS.  If you're worried about it, I'd recommend nosave combat option turned on so you can choose if you want to attack back if you're ambushed.

Personally, i find keeping nosave combat turned on is great to have all the time, unless you draw your weapons are expecting a fight.

[Agnor]

Two things:

(1) This can't be said often enough: if you are playing a soldier, attacking someone is usually an instant death sentence for him.  You don't knock a 'rinther unconscious; you initiate combat and all your NPC buddies join in.  Please don't do this except under extraordinary circumstances.

(2) People who play soldiers, just like everybody else, tend to overestimate their PCs' importance.  A yearling recruit still has next to no status; if he's doing anything that could cause a problem for his superiors, his superiors had better be (a) in on the plan beforehand and (b) getting a cut.

Thanks for letting me know about this!

[jstorrie]

(2) People who play soldiers, just like everybody else, tend to overestimate their PCs' importance.  A yearling recruit still has next to no status; if he's doing anything that could cause a problem for his superiors, his superiors had better be (a) in on the plan beforehand and (b) getting a cut.

This.

If you're not at the very least a Sergeant, you're probably Not Really All That Important. Even heroic, popular Corporals are still, technically speaking, nobodies.

If you start acting like the Highlord's personal executioner, you WILL get slapped down. If you want to roam the city and kill at will, apply for a blue robe.

[Synthesis]

(2) People who play soldiers, just like everybody else, tend to overestimate their PCs' importance.  A yearling recruit still has next to no status; if he's doing anything that could cause a problem for his superiors, his superiors had better be (a) in on the plan beforehand and (b) getting a cut.

This.

If you're not at the very least a Sergeant, you're probably Not Really All That Important. Even heroic, popular Corporals are still, technically speaking, nobodies.

If you start acting like the Highlord's personal executioner, you WILL get slapped down. If you want to roam the city and kill at will, apply for a blue robe.

Nothing's stopping anyone from playing a bad soldier.  Or a corrupt soldier.  Or a soldier who is a greedy bastard who overstretches what limited authority he has to take every piece that he can get.  A bit more interesting than Sun King Paladin #14578, if you ask me.

[jstorrie]

Sure, and I'm not suggesting that PCs can't break the rules. I just mean to reassure those who haven't played soldiers that soldiers don't get carte blanche.

[Synthesis]

That being said, PC templars tend to coddle the few PC minions they have, even if said minions nominally are merely yearling recruits, due to playability factors.  Thus, if you model your interactions with militia PCs purely on the assumption that the game's theme or the local city's culture will be strictly adhered to, you are likely to be sorely disappointed.

I'm not judging it, mind you.  That's just The Way Things Are™.

(And of course, individual interpretation of the documents regarding said theme/culture vary widely.)

[Fredd]

The way i see it is this....


if he wants you dead THAT bad, in public, NOONE is going to question it to his face. There going to assume you are in the wrong, and deserve it.


When his supperiors find out though.. I'm fairly certain that being "fired" will have a new meaning.

[roughneck]

lawstab <target>

Using your knowledge of the law, you openly tackle the criminal and stab him in the spine!

Haha, gold!

[Hot_Dancer]

Not that it bothers me but I've never heard of a militia oriented PC getting disciplined with execution themselves
after jumping the gun with their code (accidental or otherwise) benefits.

Granted, to be honest.. if the militia is after you, they're after you. Don't particularly see them being fair about it
or it being a particularly pleasant experience for the victim.

[Synthesis]

Heh, back in the day before I knew what the "hey numbnuts, i'm in the guild" tipoffs were, exactly that happened to me when I (and it was borderline twinkage) killed one of their PC high muckety-mucks with my militia private.

Of course, later on, I had a militia private who PK'ed some dude right in the street, and I got like 10,000 'sid worth of free loot from Salarr, so YMMV.

[brytta.leofa]

Not that it bothers me but I've never heard of a militia oriented PC getting disciplined with execution themselves
after jumping the gun with their code (accidental or otherwise) benefits.

I knew a private who accidentally a Salarr-clanned PC in, I think, the Expansion era.  Pretty sure there were consequences, but not execution.

[Hot_Dancer]

I'm beginning to wonder if there's anything Synthesis hasn't done in Armageddon.

New Dwarf Focus:
Do something Synthesis hasn't.

[Dakkon Black]

Lawman in this game does not mean the same thing as on earth. Simple as that. The "Law" in the city states is what the templar tells you it is.

Even if he just made up a new law, like the law..... My blade goes in your kidneys from behind if I like your scarf.

As long as what they do doesn't bother the boss upstairs they can do whatever. If you don't like it, talk to the next one you meet about it. Say you've got some ideas for emancipation of the working class from the cruel whip of tyranny.

[Fredd]

Lawman in this game does not mean the same thing as on earth. Simple as that. The "Law" in the city states is what the templar tells you it is.

Even if he just made up a new law, like the law..... My blade goes in your kidneys from behind if I like your scarf.

As long as what they do doesn't bother the boss upstairs they can do whatever. If you don't like it, talk to the next one you meet about it. Say you've got some ideas for emancipation of the working class from the cruel whip of tyranny.

Sorta this.

In allanak it is very much well known that if you want to run a "protection racket" you join the militia. They are well known (and documented in the docs) for roughing people up, and abusing there power.

BUT I am fairly certain that if they became far to obvious about it (randomly lawstab someone in the gaj for there pretty necklace for instance) The Templars might get pissy. Depends on the templar I guess...

In Tuluk though, according to the docs, that wont fly. Though backstabbing them in a dark alley with no witnessess would probably fly, according to the docs.

[palomar]

The problem is, and it has been said already in this thread, that you should not hide behind the code. Crimcode does not apply to clanned militia, regardless of whether or not they wear their uniform. I can assure you that if would-be assassins were hiding behind clan-code (AoD/Legions) and crimcode immunity to kill people while out of uniform, things would change real quick for them. It wouldn't just be their PC bosses having something to say, but their staff as well, I'm pretty sure.

I've seen someone argue that the militia could use the Way, and that they'd be aware of the undercover assassin... Well. I don't know the exact number of citizens in 'nak and Tuluk, nor the number of soldiers in their armies but there's a lot of people. I bet you that average Private Amos of the Fluffy Maces unit wouldn't recognize, or normally even have anything to do with Undercover Malik of the Quirri Thongs unit. He'd bash Malik's skull in for stabbing someone on his shift, then let the Templar ask the questions. Sure, special situations and secret ops could be arranged. I doubt it'd be common place though.

Militia soldiers, regardless of citystate, do not get to kill and maim as they please without facing the consequences. They are not the Law.

[palomar]

In Tuluk though, according to the docs, that wont fly. Though backstabbing them in a dark alley with no witnessess would probably fly, according to the docs.

A Legionnaire would be aware of the fact that you need a license to kill someone. Alley-stabbing someone without a license while in uniform probably isn't the best career move. It is also pretty much going against the documentation in more than one way.

[Synthesis]

[brytta.leofa]

Yeah, someday, before my Armageddon career ends, I'm going to gloriously fight my way out of Storm's End.

[jstorrie]

Alley-stabbing someone without a license while in uniform probably isn't the best career move

...if you get caught.

[Marshmellow]

The point is that they shouldn't, period.  It is generally alien to the culture.  A Tuluki doing that is like some guy with a keg under one arm, a trucker cap and sleeveless flannel going to the ballet.

[Cindy42]

The point is that they shouldn't, period.  It is generally alien to the culture.  A Tuluki doing that is like some guy with a keg under one arm, a trucker cap and sleeveless flannel going to the ballet.

okay, so... if i've got this right;

assasin working for templar kills random unwashed dude in public in tuluk= dead.
assasin working for templar kills random unwashed dude in hidden place in tuluk= don't get caught.
assasin working for templar kills random unwashed dude in public in allanak= don't do it for breakfast every day.
assasin working for templar kills random unwashed dude in hidden place in allanak= don't do it for breakfast, lunch and dinner every day.
assasin not working for templar kills random unwashed dude in tuluk= don't get caught.
assasin not working for templar kills random unwashed dude in allanak= don't bother the templars.

is this correct? i have a feeling its not. i'm confused now.

[palomar]

http://www.armageddon.org/general/tuluki_rp.html#legal

An assassin registers for free, but must purchase a separate "license" for each assassination. A license is not a tangible object, but rather a pledge from the templarate not to act on the findings of an investigation - provided the crime has been committed as recorded, and executed with skill and discretion.

The above is important to remember about Tuluki assassinations.

In Tuluk, a registered assassin (regardless of who she works for) can buy a license to kill another citizen or non-citizen. If they screw up, they're in trouble. If they don't screw up the hit, they're mostly good (from a law perspective).

Killing someone in Tuluk without proper licensing is a serious crime because every citizen should be aware of that particular law.

Tulukis do not appreciate public violence at all. Sure, there's fistfights and brawling in Tuluk just as anywhere else, but stabbing someone in public is not accepted behavior.

Regardless of city, a militia member PC should not abuse their crimcode immunity, that's the point of my previous posts. Crimcode immunity doesn't come with the uniform, it is a coded feature due to clan membership. It is not realistic for a militia member to be immune to crimcode when they're out of uniform (in almost all cases). The militia-assassin does not get crimflagged, and the victim would be crimflagged for striking back at the militia guy. Is it really something to be arguing about?

[Taven]

The point is that they shouldn't, period.  It is generally alien to the culture.  A Tuluki doing that is like some guy with a keg under one arm, a trucker cap and sleeveless flannel going to the ballet.

okay, so... if i've got this right;

assasin working for templar kills random unwashed dude in public in tuluk= dead.
assasin working for templar kills random unwashed dude in hidden place in tuluk= don't get caught.
assasin working for templar kills random unwashed dude in public in allanak= don't do it for breakfast every day.
assasin working for templar kills random unwashed dude in hidden place in allanak= don't do it for breakfast, lunch and dinner every day.
assasin not working for templar kills random unwashed dude in tuluk= don't get caught.
assasin not working for templar kills random unwashed dude in allanak= don't bother the templars.

is this correct? i have a feeling its not. i'm confused now.

Most people in Zalanthas are unwashed.

It depends on if they get caught, and who the commanding templars are. I think that there is a strong chance that they would see repercussions for randomly killing someone. An assassin has a lot of power. The templars want to know that they control that power. If they don't, then that means it's an issue to them. It would be different, I think, if the person was not so random, and had done something grievous against the assassin. However, it is never okay to kill a citizen without templar permission as a lawman assassin. By that I mean that even if this Lord Templar Hardnose is okay with it, another might not be. I would also argue that the repercussions faced could be potentially worse for an assassin already working for the law. If a random assassin (low level) gets caught, a Templar might give them a second chance and say "work for me". However, if you're already working for them, you've proven that you can't be controlled. Again, it really, really depends on who it is, what their reasons are, how useful they are, and the commanding templars at the time.

I don't think a real generalization can be made.

As to the coded immunity of assassin lawmen, I think that that's an issue for any killing that isn't official. If you're killing someone not ordained by the templars in any area where you could get crime coded, that's clear abuse. As to official killings, I think you would probably want to communicate with staff first. As in, it's probably possible to work through the hoops and let the NPC/vNPC soldiers stationed in a general area know that a killing might occur there. If you don't communicate and aren't wearing insignia, then I could see a soldier realistically arresting you, because they have no way to know what is going on. Staff communication by wishes and requests would be key.

[Marshmellow]

A good Tuluki, which most Legion members should be, should WANT to play by the rules.  There is an art form to killing people, and when you play by the rules of the art, you're cool.  Any misstep, however, and you should be treated (regardless of coded clan affiliation) as an unwashed barbarian.  You MUST get a license before killing someone to be playing by the rules, and the Legions should know this.

[Fredd]

A good Tuluki, which most Legion members should be, should WANT to play by the rules.  There is an art form to killing people, and when you play by the rules of the art, you're cool.  Any misstep, however, and you should be treated (regardless of coded clan affiliation) as an unwashed barbarian.  You MUST get a license before killing someone to be playing by the rules, and the Legions should know this.

They could be ordered to make someone "dissapear"

But that in itself would be  liscense.

[palomar]

A good Tuluki, which most Legion members should be, should WANT to play by the rules.  There is an art form to killing people, and when you play by the rules of the art, you're cool.  Any misstep, however, and you should be treated (regardless of coded clan affiliation) as an unwashed barbarian.  You MUST get a license before killing someone to be playing by the rules, and the Legions should know this.

They could be ordered to make someone "dissapear"

But that in itself would be  liscense.

Legionnaires don't disappear people, templars do. However, a Legionnaire could potentially also be a doing licensed assassinations. It's different business though.

[Cindy42]

Aaaaah. Okay.

the right hands of the templars--- deeply involved in the drudgery of the politics without having an actual role in the politics themselves.

i think, just an idea, if someone wanted to play a noble who became an assasin... aw that sounded good and doable for a moment. now it sounds like asking if someone wants to ride a unicorn IG.

seriously though. be very cool if some dirt happened and this thread inspired it

[Fredd]

Aaaaah. Okay.

the right hands of the templars--- deeply involved in the drudgery of the politics without having an actual role in the politics themselves.

i think, just an idea, if someone wanted to play a noble who became an assasin... aw that sounded good and doable for a moment. now it sounds like asking if someone wants to ride a unicorn IG.

seriously though. be very cool if some dirt happened and this thread inspired it

Zalanthas is a very dirty world. You should look closer.

[Synthesis]

And again...not every Tuluki Legionnaire is a paragon of Tuluki virtue.  It's still quite possible for one to just lose his shit and gut your ass in a fit of furious rage, because Tulukis are still human, and that's the sort of shit humans do.

And in Allanak, a soldier doesn't -need- to ditch his uniform to punk your bitch ass.  Anyone watching him slice you up will naturally assume you deserved it, and every soldier within earshot will probably come running to get a piece of the action.  If you weren't important to anyone, and he has a good cover story, you won't be missed.

[Kismetic]

If the murder was IC, I'd say, quit complaining.  But, from a coded standpoint, I see playing in a military clan (with coded benefits) as more a defense, than an offense.  More or less, "Hey, buddy, you can't fuck with me on my turf.  I'm militia."

Using that benefit to orchestrate a kill you couldn't normally pull off?  Less than creative, yes.  Is it necessary to keep integrity for your character and the game?  Do it.

Every action has a consequence.  As long as you're willing to take responsibility ...


Personally, I think NPCs should only auto-attack when the clanned PC is -attacked-, and not when attacking.  That's a lot of jarring actions (that may not be strictly IC) hanging on a single command (kill so-and-so).

For instance, imagine Private Joe Soldier attacking a Salarri family member, and with the help of crimcode, killing them.  Would the militia -really- join in such a dangerous attack with some guy who signed up last week to pay up his spice addiction?

Food for thought.

[palomar]

For instance, imagine Private Joe Soldier attacking a Salarri family member, and with the help of crimcode, killing them.  Would the militia -really- join in such a dangerous attack with some guy who signed up last week to pay up his spice addiction?

There are several reasons why the Recruit rank exists in the militia clans. Anyway, attacking someone to get the benefit of crimcode advantage is pretty bad (so is attacking someone get the benefit of your whole tribe's camp to join in the combat etc). I never did that, but I mention it since I was explicitly told by a staff member once to make sure I didn't. I don't recommend doing it.

[Majikal]

There's a reason you're expected to drop in a report on any PK you do. After the first PK report that starts with "So I waited in the intersection full of npc soldiers to gank this newb for his boots." I think some action might be taken.

[Thunkkin]

you won't be missed.

Your screams, however, may be fondly remembered.

[Cindy42]

i wish there was a way to slip something onto someone else, like the opposite of steal command.

i would like to declare that this is a serious suggestion also.

[bcw81]

There is.

>Plant

[Cindy42]

There is.

>Plant

thank you!

/embarrasing long-time noobness

[Fredd]

There is.

>Plant

Ahh one of my favorite commands....

Only seen it once. Had someone plant money on my pc who was down on his luck, and refused to take a handout.

[Synthesis]

There is.

>Plant

Ahh one of my favorite commands....

Only seen it once. Had someone plant money on my pc who was down on his luck, and refused to take a handout.

SHIT MUGS

[Marc]

Dont give um ideas

[hyzhenhok]

Holding up a unique, master-crafted waterskin, the cranky old man says, in paranoid-accented sirihish, "I've always prepared my own, ever since I saw old Amos and Malik die at the same time because someone switched their ale with cleaning fluid."

[Majikal]

I've been shitmugged before. I think I should post it in the shame thread.

[jstorrie]

Every time you get shitmugged you should file a player complaint, because fuck that noise.

The ale in the Gaj is bad, but not so bad that any PC reasonably ought to confuse it with actual poop.

[Fredd]

Shit mugged? That slang for slipping someone a poisoned drink? Or we talking actuall shit, in a mug?

[Case]

Shit mugged? That slang for slipping someone a poisoned drink? Or we talking actuall shit, in a mug?

Stealing somebody's drink and planting another one with shit in it. So they die I guess. Lamely.

[jstorrie]

Actual shit, in a mug.

Sewage exists as a liquid in-game and it's about as healthy to drink as you might imagine.

[Armaddict]

Please don't spread around that idea, even if I'm relatively certain it was corrected to prevent it.