lawman assassins and crim code

[Scarecrow]

I just thought of something, related to a question I asked the staff which was answered very clearly and nicely (thank you Talia) 

Do you think it is a little, ugh... "codey" and twinkish for a law authority PC (such a member of His  Arm) who is an assassin for the said authority, to be able to assassin strike from the shadows, and no matter what you do or how you do it, the poor victim will always get  crim coded, and  the assassin be free to lay into you, now of course with the hulking soldiers and guards plowing into the fight as well.
It just seems a little unfair, and codedly, nothing stops the assassin from just wandering into the tavern, stabbing you (with soldier assisstance) and walking away without any form of danger or challenge.
In my opinion, a backstab strike should always crim code the assassin if it's done in a authority zone, even if the stabber is a militiaman themself. What do you think?

[MeTekillot]

Why do you keep thinking up situations where someone with law authority twinks out with their use of law code...?

[jstorrie]

If you're living in America or Canada or England and a policeman tries to ambush and murder you, then yes, that should be illegal.

But if an agent of the Sun Legions/Arm of the Dragon sticks a blade in you, they're acting with the legal authority of their God-King. You're fucked. If they abuse that authority, it'll get taken away, but so long as they have it, it's theirs to use. If some PC is causing a problem because he's a lowly recruit or private backstabbing behind the shield of authority, he'll get slapped down by his superiors; if he's actually supposed to be out there stabbing people, the only ones who'll get slapped down are his victims.

In short: I disagree with you. The city states are ruled by brutality and oppression. Watch your back.

[Cutthroat]

Sometimes a backstabbing militiaman shouldn't get crimflagged.

The suggestion is based on the premise that this is an abuse of the code. I would suggest it's an abuse only if the attacker isn't in uniform, and therefore can't be identified as a soldier by other soldiers in case the fight spills out onto the street. Also, basically, what jstorrie said.

A better solution if you're in this position is probably to get your clanning taken away while you're not in uniform, doing dirty work, and then get your clanning back after it's done. Staff/superiors should be able to help with this.

[brytta.leofa]

And if he's really working undercover, the Arm is probably aware of it at some level.  In the America, undercover cops occasionally get entangled with their uniformed brethren, but I assume that they try to keep things coordinated.  There's no reason that the militia, with psionics being common and all that, couldn't do the same thing.  Might be a good thing for sneaky soldiers to keep in mind.

[Synthesis]

I seem to recall that you don't actually get a crim-flag from an AoD-clanned person attacking you until you take your first swing back at them.  I vaguely recall sapping some fellow (as militia) and him fleeing before he actually swung back, thereby escaping the crim-flag.  Another time, I sapped someone and immediately knocked them out, and the jailer wouldn't accept them because they hadn't got the crim-flag, because they went instantly to 0 stun rather than counterattacking. If my recollection here is accurate, it seems that nosave combat would indeed protect you from being incriminated by a militia PC attacking you.

However, this would've been sometime between 2002 and 2004, so my memory of events may not be entirely accurate.

[Scarecrow]

Thank you, that's some interesting feedback. It's true what jstorrie said though, watch your back. Probably the best protection really.

[Marshmellow]

As was recently brought up in the Shame thread, I've played in the AoD and I've played a templar, though I won't say which.

As a Templar with the power to promote, you still are not allowed to promote someone past the Recruit rank without staff approval.  This is to prevent exactly what you fear, Scarecrow.  They won't allow promotions of people that have shown they will abuse such power.  They are also, surely, keeping an eye on things for just such abuse.

Don't worry.  The staff are looking out for everyone.

[Lenny Poppo]

i think that it makes sense for a law assassin to get away with the deed

perhaps a new skill is needed for something like this, for example

lawstab <target>

Using your knowledge of the law, you openly tackle the criminal and stab him in the spine!


this would allow only law assasins to get away with the kill and there would be no crim flag to worry about

[brytta.leofa]

i think that it makes sense for a law assassin to get away with the deed

We missed you, Lenny!

This is possible already; fully-enlisted soldiers do not normally get incriminated for anything they do, even backstabbing.

[Agnor]

I would think that even if they "abused" the bug, it may actually be fine if it would be in character for them to do so. There are examples of crooked cops in our world all over the place, in a place like Zalanthas I could definitely see that being much worse.

I could easily see someone spotting a 'rinther with some very valuable property, which was clearly "Stolen a week ago from a good friend of the lawman's sir, just ask him he will back me up", being knocked unconcious so that the noble lawman could recover the stolen property of their friends once in a while. After all, who will the higher ups believe, their amazing recruit, who has been valiantly serving for a year now, or the scummy 'rinther who clearly should not be able to afford such a classy item?

If I'm right about this, anything to fix this occurring would stop this too.

Someone let me know if this would be wrong though.

[brytta.leofa]

I could easily see someone spotting a 'rinther with some very valuable property, which was clearly "Stolen a week ago from a good friend of the lawman's sir, just ask him he will back me up", being knocked unconcious so that the noble lawman could recover the stolen property of their friends once in a while. After all, who will the higher ups believe, their amazing recruit, who has been valiantly serving for a year now, or the scummy 'rinther who clearly should not be able to afford such a classy item?

Two things:

(1) This can't be said often enough: if you are playing a soldier, attacking someone is usually an instant death sentence for him.  You don't knock a 'rinther unconscious; you initiate combat and all your NPC buddies join in.  Please don't do this except under extraordinary circumstances.

(2) People who play soldiers, just like everybody else, tend to overestimate their PCs' importance.  A yearling recruit still has next to no status; if he's doing anything that could cause a problem for his superiors, his superiors had better be (a) in on the plan beforehand and (b) getting a cut.

[wizturbo]

It's fine as it is.  You don't get crimflagged unless you attack back, and only Templars can incriminate you even if you don't visibily commit a crime in front of NPCS.  If you're worried about it, I'd recommend nosave combat option turned on so you can choose if you want to attack back if you're ambushed.

Personally, i find keeping nosave combat turned on is great to have all the time, unless you draw your weapons are expecting a fight.

[Agnor]

Two things:

(1) This can't be said often enough: if you are playing a soldier, attacking someone is usually an instant death sentence for him.  You don't knock a 'rinther unconscious; you initiate combat and all your NPC buddies join in.  Please don't do this except under extraordinary circumstances.

(2) People who play soldiers, just like everybody else, tend to overestimate their PCs' importance.  A yearling recruit still has next to no status; if he's doing anything that could cause a problem for his superiors, his superiors had better be (a) in on the plan beforehand and (b) getting a cut.

Thanks for letting me know about this!

[jstorrie]

(2) People who play soldiers, just like everybody else, tend to overestimate their PCs' importance.  A yearling recruit still has next to no status; if he's doing anything that could cause a problem for his superiors, his superiors had better be (a) in on the plan beforehand and (b) getting a cut.

This.

If you're not at the very least a Sergeant, you're probably Not Really All That Important. Even heroic, popular Corporals are still, technically speaking, nobodies.

If you start acting like the Highlord's personal executioner, you WILL get slapped down. If you want to roam the city and kill at will, apply for a blue robe.

[Synthesis]

(2) People who play soldiers, just like everybody else, tend to overestimate their PCs' importance.  A yearling recruit still has next to no status; if he's doing anything that could cause a problem for his superiors, his superiors had better be (a) in on the plan beforehand and (b) getting a cut.

This.

If you're not at the very least a Sergeant, you're probably Not Really All That Important. Even heroic, popular Corporals are still, technically speaking, nobodies.

If you start acting like the Highlord's personal executioner, you WILL get slapped down. If you want to roam the city and kill at will, apply for a blue robe.

Nothing's stopping anyone from playing a bad soldier.  Or a corrupt soldier.  Or a soldier who is a greedy bastard who overstretches what limited authority he has to take every piece that he can get.  A bit more interesting than Sun King Paladin #14578, if you ask me.

[jstorrie]

Sure, and I'm not suggesting that PCs can't break the rules. I just mean to reassure those who haven't played soldiers that soldiers don't get carte blanche.

[Synthesis]

That being said, PC templars tend to coddle the few PC minions they have, even if said minions nominally are merely yearling recruits, due to playability factors.  Thus, if you model your interactions with militia PCs purely on the assumption that the game's theme or the local city's culture will be strictly adhered to, you are likely to be sorely disappointed.

I'm not judging it, mind you.  That's just The Way Things Are™.

(And of course, individual interpretation of the documents regarding said theme/culture vary widely.)

[Fredd]

The way i see it is this....


if he wants you dead THAT bad, in public, NOONE is going to question it to his face. There going to assume you are in the wrong, and deserve it.


When his supperiors find out though.. I'm fairly certain that being "fired" will have a new meaning.

[roughneck]

lawstab <target>

Using your knowledge of the law, you openly tackle the criminal and stab him in the spine!

Haha, gold!

[Hot_Dancer]

Not that it bothers me but I've never heard of a militia oriented PC getting disciplined with execution themselves
after jumping the gun with their code (accidental or otherwise) benefits.

Granted, to be honest.. if the militia is after you, they're after you. Don't particularly see them being fair about it
or it being a particularly pleasant experience for the victim.

[Synthesis]

Heh, back in the day before I knew what the "hey numbnuts, i'm in the guild" tipoffs were, exactly that happened to me when I (and it was borderline twinkage) killed one of their PC high muckety-mucks with my militia private.

Of course, later on, I had a militia private who PK'ed some dude right in the street, and I got like 10,000 'sid worth of free loot from Salarr, so YMMV.

[brytta.leofa]

Not that it bothers me but I've never heard of a militia oriented PC getting disciplined with execution themselves
after jumping the gun with their code (accidental or otherwise) benefits.

I knew a private who accidentally a Salarr-clanned PC in, I think, the Expansion era.  Pretty sure there were consequences, but not execution.

[Hot_Dancer]

I'm beginning to wonder if there's anything Synthesis hasn't done in Armageddon.

New Dwarf Focus:
Do something Synthesis hasn't.

[Dakkon Black]

Lawman in this game does not mean the same thing as on earth. Simple as that. The "Law" in the city states is what the templar tells you it is.

Even if he just made up a new law, like the law..... My blade goes in your kidneys from behind if I like your scarf.

As long as what they do doesn't bother the boss upstairs they can do whatever. If you don't like it, talk to the next one you meet about it. Say you've got some ideas for emancipation of the working class from the cruel whip of tyranny.