Trader - Subguild

[Bebop]

Hi.

I just thought I would run this idea had by pretty quickly.  Merchants are the most defenseless guilds combat wise, and also one of the my most easy to guild sniff.

I thought I would propose a Trader sub-guild that would include the skills:

Cavilish
Haggle
Value

And possibly listen or something like direction sense or a boost to ride as a trader likely would not be very sedentary   

The focus would not be a crafting sub-guild per se.  It would embody the type of PC that is actively interacting in the markets and looking to be a quick talker with a sharp eye that has probably done a wee bit of traveling.  Something like this may have been suggested before, I don't know.  I don't really peruse or follow the GDB to much these days.  But it doesn't seem very overpowered and it's a sub-guild I'd definitely be interested in personally.  It could also be beneficial to some PCs looking to join on with a Merchant House to be able to communicate in the language with their employers when discretion is necessary.  It also might deter people from instantly thinking, you just spoke Cavilish and you're not Merchant Family.  I can so gank you.

[FantasyWriter]

I like very much, and would use it quite often.

[a strange shadow]

I like the idea of a trader that isn't necessarily a crafter.

Two thumbs up.

[Barsook]

I dig this idea.

[Synthesis]

Subguild Con Artist    (Character)

Con artists are good with small sleights of hand, as well as skilled in some of the merchantly arts, such as being able to appraise items as well as make an advantageous bargain.

See Also:
    guilds, subguilds

Looks like the only thing it lacks is Cavilish, which you don't really need, anyway.  (Not sure if they get value, right off the top of my head, but it looks like they do, unless "appraise items" is a reference to analyze.)

[Archbaron]

Subguild Con Artist    (Character)

Con artists are good with small sleights of hand, as well as skilled in some of the merchantly arts, such as being able to appraise items as well as make an advantageous bargain.

See Also:
    guilds, subguilds

Looks like the only thing it lacks is Cavilish, which you don't really need, anyway.  (Not sure if they get value, right off the top of my head, but it looks like they do, unless "appraise items" is a reference to analyze.)

I think you would be right in your assumption.

And yes, this sounds like a great idea!

[Barzalene]

Why is there no like button on this thing?

[Zoltan]

Yeah, it sounds very similar to Con Artist, but I think the point would be to take Cavilish guild-sniffin' out of the picture. Maybe just re-tool Con Artist into Trader?

[Barzalene]

I think that some subguilds are similar to others. That's OK. I like that there's a different slant and a different connotation between con artist and trader, even if there is some coded overlap. I would love to see trader add, but would not like to see con artist taken away.

[Lizzie]

The point of a subguild with Cavilish, as I understand Bebops post, is that everyone knows that anyone looking for a job, who has that language out of chargen, and is not a GMH family member, is a Merchant Guild PC.

It makes it very easy to guild-sniff, AND it makes it very easy to "out yourself" in a really obvious way. Adding a sugbuild with Cavilish is one step toward preventing that, that won't be a nerf to anyone or anything, won't break anyone's immershunz, won't make merchant_guild pointless, won't make everyone and their brother all suddenly know Cavilish, and won't break the game.

[Synthesis]

Personally, I'd much rather have sleight-of-hand than Cavilish.  But I suppose it wouldn't be game-breaking if you just up and added Cavilish to the con artist subclass.

As far as guild-sniffing is concerned...you might be able to masquerade as a merchant with a ranger/trader for a little while (after you spent quite a bit of time branching the appropriate ranger skills), but other than that, there's no way to get all the newbie crafting skills a merchant starts with.  So giving the trader subclass Cavilish ain't gonna fix any guild-sniffing problem.

[a strange shadow]

For me, it'd be less about guild sniffing, and more about being able to play a bona-fide trader, who knows the trade tongue and the ins and outs of the market, and who spends their life traveling and trading, not necessarily crafting. That might include, Tek forbid, swinging a sword or knowing the ass-end of a dagger from the tip, without having to special app for cavilish.

[FantasyWriter]

Well said, Shadow.

[Barzalene]

For me, it'd be less about guild sniffing, and more about being able to play a bona-fide trader, who knows the trade tongue and the ins and outs of the market, and who spends their life traveling and trading, not necessarily crafting. That might include, Tek forbid, swinging a sword or knowing the ass-end of a dagger from the tip, without having to special app for cavilish.

Yes.

[Synthesis]

I'm not arguing with that.  The con artist subclass already basically lets you play the kind of trader you're talking about, because Cavilish is largely irrelevant.

[Sam]

I've had a few merchants over my time here and I've never used it.

I think either pilot or the ability to lead two mounts should also be included.

[a strange shadow]

Then you'll get laughed out of town when you claim to be a career trader and yet don't know cavilish. It's a minor point, but it'd be nice to see it a little more widespread rather than guild-locked. The point about the con artist subguild is a good one, and I'll be keeping it in mind for future role ideas. Thanks.

[Synthesis]

I think the size of your bank account and the l337ness of your silks says more about your ability as a trader than your ability to speak Cavilish, when  you're not part of a GMH.

[Cutthroat]

I don't know, but with the way Cavilish is described in the help files it's like guild_merchants shouldn't really get it - mainly Merchant House family members and the people they hire. I don't think knowing cavilish is a prerequisite to being a trader. That said, I could see the point for a subguild like this with the way the game works. I think it would help to make more believable traders that actually deal in the goods other people make, or make money off of the fact that certain kinds of items are rarer in certain places. Perhaps not perfect cavilish to start, but at a usable level.

[Armaddict]

Agreed with Synth.

Cavilish is for the most part irrelevant aside from a 'wow' factor that isn't really wow.

[Feco]

I don't know, but with the way Cavilish is described in the help files it's like guild_merchants shouldn't really get it - mainly Merchant House family members and the people they hire. I don't think knowing cavilish is a prerequisite to being a trader. That said, I could see the point for a subguild like this with the way the game works. I think it would help to make more believable traders that actually deal in the goods other people make, or make money off of the fact that certain kinds of items are rarer in certain places. Perhaps not perfect cavilish to start, but at a usable level.

I wouldn't mind seeing Cavilish becoming something spoken by sponsored GMH roles, which is then taught to a non-family member after joining the mercantile/advisory branches.

Stop a bit of guild sniffing, if nothin' else. 

[Dan]

I've had GMHs turn me down for work as a crafter because I didn't know Cav. Boo.

[Barzalene]

I don't know, but with the way Cavilish is described in the help files it's like guild_merchants shouldn't really get it - mainly Merchant House family members and the people they hire. I don't think knowing cavilish is a prerequisite to being a trader. That said, I could see the point for a subguild like this with the way the game works. I think it would help to make more believable traders that actually deal in the goods other people make, or make money off of the fact that certain kinds of items are rarer in certain places. Perhaps not perfect cavilish to start, but at a usable level.

I wouldn't mind seeing Cavilish becoming something spoken by sponsored GMH roles, which is then taught to a non-family member after joining the mercantile/advisory branches.

Stop a bit of guild sniffing, if nothin' else. 

Yes. I'm on this bus! Yes.

[Is Friday]

*random urge*

Spec app a merchant with cavilish removed.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

*random urge*

Spec app a merchant with cavilish removed.

Do it!
I like the idea of either removing Cavilish from Merchants at large (and making it trickle down through those with actual access to family members), or the idea of adding a subguild that adds it as an option. I like both ideas because I'm always in favor of throwing off guild-sniffers.

[Archbaron]

I like both ideas because I'm always in favor of throwing off guild-sniffers.

[X-D]

What is funny is..way back in the day, before crafting, the OP suggestion was pretty much all the merchant guild was.
Value, haggle, Cav, ride pilot and a couple other things.

[Scarecrow]

*random urge*

Spec app a merchant with cavilish removed.

Just don't speak cavilish. Don't need an app for that.

[Qzzrbl]

*random urge*

Spec app a merchant with cavilish removed.

Just don't speak cavilish. Don't need an app for that.

True, but then you'd be forced to understand Cavillish anytime anyone else speaks it.

[Archbaron]

*random urge*

Spec app a merchant with cavilish removed.

Just don't speak cavilish. Don't need an app for that.

True, but then you'd be forced to understand Cavillish anytime anyone else speaks it.

If you mention in your background that your character does not understand it or speak it, then it would be find to play it out as not knowing. Also, I bet that sending in an e-mail or wishing up to have it removed, as per your background, would be an easy request.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't know, but with the way Cavilish is described in the help files it's like guild_merchants shouldn't really get it - mainly Merchant House family members and the people they hire. I don't think knowing cavilish is a prerequisite to being a trader. That said, I could see the point for a subguild like this with the way the game works. I think it would help to make more believable traders that actually deal in the goods other people make, or make money off of the fact that certain kinds of items are rarer in certain places. Perhaps not perfect cavilish to start, but at a usable level.

I wouldn't mind seeing Cavilish becoming something spoken by sponsored GMH roles, which is then taught to a non-family member after joining the mercantile/advisory branches.

Stop a bit of guild sniffing, if nothin' else. 

Yes. I'm on this bus! Yes.

Also on this bus, in the back, sticking gum under yer seats.

[brytta.leofa]

If you mention in your background that your character does not understand it or speak it, then it would be find to play it out as not knowing. Also, I bet that sending in an e-mail or wishing up to have it removed, as per your background, would be an easy request.

I've wished up and gotten sirihish set to like novice (but not actually removed).


I like the idea of this subguild and would be tempted to use it.  Cavilish may not be an important skill per se, but it adds much flavor.  The set of people who get it now is not ideal.

[Marauder Moe]

@OP: YES PLZ.

I have asked for this several times myself.

[Akaramu]

I like both ideas because I'm always in favor of throwing off guild-sniffers.

[Majikal]

I'm all for adding any new subguilds, be they wierd or not very skill-heavy. Any Sub thought up could find it's place I think.

[smcdonald]

What I'd like to see is the inverse--a subguild that would allow a merchant to learn just one weapon (other than archery).  I suppose you'd have a problem with other guilds using it to boost their starting skill with the weapon.  Perhaps the subguild could start with the very minimum skill level.

[Marshmellow]

This is still the subguild I want to see go in:

Subguild Survivalist     (Character)

Survivalists aren't any better at much than most people, but what they are pretty decent at is getting from one place to the next through the wastes.  They have a good sense of where they're going (direction sense) and can get past many obstacles (climb).  They can keep themselves fed too, having a knack for finding edible roots (food forage) and cleaning their kills (skinning).

...but I like this one too. 

[Qzzrbl]

This is still the subguild I want to see go in:

Subguild Survivalist     (Character)

Survivalists aren't any better at much than most people, but what they are pretty decent at is getting from one place to the next through the wastes.  They have a good sense of where they're going (direction sense) and can get past many obstacles (climb).  They can keep themselves fed too, having a knack for finding edible roots (food forage) and cleaning their kills (skinning).

...but I like this one too. 

Yeah.... If that subguild came around, it'd be my hands-down most-used.

Maybe substitute "skinning" with "value", but that's a change I could live without.

[Marauder Moe]

Eh.  Honestly, that sounds waaaay too powerful for a subguild.  Those skills are pretty significant just having them on your list.

[Qzzrbl]

Eh.  Honestly, that sounds waaaay too powerful for a subguild.  Those skills are pretty significant just having them on your list.

Hell, even just Climb and Direction Sense would do it for me.

[Morrolan]

*random urge*

Spec app a merchant with cavilish removed.

I've never used a special app to get a skill removed.  In the past, staff have been perfectly happy to do so, even with requests such as, "Please remove <primary language>, and lower <secondary language> until it's incomprehensible."

That said, I would like to see cavilish for merchants only at novice level unless the character is GMH.
And I would like to see that same level available through a subguild.

Morrolan

[Sephiroto]

Subguild Survivalist     (Character)

Survivalists aren't any better at much than most people, but what they are pretty decent at is getting from one place to the next through the wastes.  They have a good sense of where they're going (direction sense) and can get past many obstacles (climb).  They can keep themselves fed too, having a knack for finding edible roots (food forage) and cleaning their kills (skinning).

Yeah.... If that subguild came around, it'd be my hands-down most-used.

Maybe substitute "skinning" with "value", but that's a change I could live without.

This sounds strikingly similar to the scavanger subguild.  I don't know if scavanger gets any sort of skinning skill, but I think they should.  I really can't say for sure though, since I don't have access to the help files right now.  You could always petition a change to the scavanger subguild.

With regards to Cavilish: It makes sense that merchants use a specific language for their trade.  With no access to helpfiles, I'd surmise that traders likely developed a hybrid language to help communicate with foreign traders.  This happens in the real world, so I'd imagine that Cavilish would have developed as a language in a similar way.  Merchant houses also have limited ability to read and write in this language, since it is essential for dealing with logistics and detail-oriented crafts, as well as passing along knowledge of the trade to future generations.  However, with the limitations imposed on reading and writing by the Templarate and nobility of both cities, I would imagine that the both noble parties ensure that complex writing in Cavilish does not develop to prevent detailed accumulation or transfer of knowledge (power).  Again, I don't know the background on Cavilish, but for the reasons above I think it would be reasonable to consider drafting some flavor documentation that limits the complexity of the Cavilish language and writing.

[Bebop]

Kind of getting off topic there. 

I'm glad a few of you guys like the idea by the way.  I think it would be beneficial to the game overall and let people create characters that like to RP being swift talkers in the marketplaces across the world.  Seeing some comments here have definitely reinforced my opinion that it could help reduce guild sniffing.

[Scarecrow]

*is distracted by Bebops avatar as he is going to post, and forgets what he was gonna say*

[jhunter]

I like the idea just for the additional subguild option but I have no concerns about guild sniffing, it has never been a problem for me.

[wizturbo]

When it comes to subguild options, my opinion is the more the merrier.  As long as they're balanced, having a nice variety of subguilds leads to less guild sniffing and more diverse character's out there.  Trader seems like a good addition.

[Medivh]

When it comes to subguild options, my opinion is the more the merrier.  As long as they're balanced, having a nice variety of subguilds leads to less guild sniffing and more diverse character's out there.  Trader seems like a good addition.

Merchant/Trader. Adds nothing.
Just a thought. (Some newbie would think its a good idea...)
Even Ranger/Hunter gives the ranger something early.
For other guilds... (as has been said) con artist does the same, minus the language. (Which can be gotten through in-game means.) Thus making con artist a stronger subguild in every way for the long term.
My thoughts on balance...

This isn't to say I do not like the idea though.

Perhaps we could throw calvilish onto linguist? (So it finally gets three skills; since biters, manti, and githers are gone.)

[jhunter]

Perhaps we could throw calvilish onto linguist?

Personally, I would prefer this.

[brytta.leofa]

The combination of cavilish + haggle with a combat guild is what really sells this to me.  It's a great combination for anybody with a mercantile background.

[Marauder Moe]

I don't like the idea of giving it to linguist.

[EldritchOrigins]

As Cavilish is the legacy of the dune tradersof times go past and not really required to do business, it's more of a distinguishing characteristic that marks those that speak it as the merchant elite.

I think by making it more available to players without heavily mechantile/merchant house backgrounds detracts from the flavor that the language provides.  I'd think it'd be better if some guild merchant characters didn't have it, rather than them all having it.

However, I don't think Cavilish is a heavily guarded secret, like Tatlum for example.  Anyone that really wanted to learn it could, if they wanted to go through enough trouble.  If the skill were made more accessible to non-merchant types, I think it would be cool to add a Cavilish/Dune Trader accent as a to help distinguish the merchants with the Cavilish culture from those without (dividing the pretenders from the "real thing").  This too could be learned, but it'd take time, about the amount of time it should probably take to really learn about this sort of thing.

[Barzalene]

This was mentioned earlier in the thread. I'm resisting the urge to branch out to rtw or rat and I'm keeping it in this thread, where it's maybe appropriate. I really advocate taking cavilish out of the merchant guild and reserving it for GMH family and life long employees (who'll be taught by their employers.)
Not so much because of guild sniffing as to give the GMH some more territory of their own. And also because it's one more way to have haves and have nots. And those having it when they shouldn't will be another source of tension and conflict.

[Armaddict]

I agree with the 2 posts before mine.

[zaraj]

I also agree with Barzalene and Eldritch. I do faintly recall that at least one merchant clan still has in their docs that they fiercely protect Cavilish from outsiders. "Don't teach it to anyone but also don't hire a scrub off the street unless said scrub speaks it!"

[Lizzie]

I also agree with Barzalene and Eldritch. I do faintly recall that at least one merchant clan still has in their docs that they fiercely protect Cavilish from outsiders. "Don't teach it to anyone but also don't hire a scrub off the street unless said scrub speaks it!"

Well to be fair, that one clan that fiercely protects Cavilish, hasn't had its clan docs updated since 2004.

[Bluefae]

The combination of cavilish + haggle with a combat guild is what really sells this to me.  It's a great combination for anybody with a mercantile background.

     +1.  I've nearly special app'ed for this very reason.

[Incognito]

This thread started by stating the requirement for a sub-guild with the Cavilish language.
The thread progressed with discussion about the Con-Artist sub-guild, and whether it should be modified to include this extra "feature".
It then turned to discuss the usefulness of Cavilish in the Merchant guild - with posters voicing their opinions that it is not an essential requirement, from their experience.
Finally, the thread has turned to the point where it has been voiced that the Cavilish language should be removed from the Merchant guild entirely, and reserved for Great Merchant Houses only.


A few thoughts and opinions on this subject - after having played more than my fair share of Merchants.

1) Every merchant worth his salt, would know Cavilish - its not a luxury, or something to do with finesse or a flare for the dramatic - its a requirement for merchants to deal with other merchants, and get the best possible trade - a merchant who communicated with another merchant in Cavilish would be able to achieve far better results than someone who spoke another tongue - even "common". Speaking Cavilish shows the other person that you are part of the small cadre of traders who has taken the time to master the tongue, solely to further your trading/merchanting/haggling prowess, and that counts for something.

2) Even a small-time wheat dealer from Red Storm East might communicate in Cavilish with a wood trader up in Tuluk - its part of the whole haggling and bulk trading routine - it is by no means something elitist that is reserved for the GMH's only. That being said, I would go so far as to agree that writing Cavilish might be reserved for members and employees of the GMH's (to begin with), but that too could be taught in-game to others.

3) Think of Cavilish as knowledge of the trade.
Here's an example: Lets say you walk into an auto garage and ask the mechanic "Hey my car's spoilt, can you help me fix it?" Chances are he's gonna check the car, then overcharge you for the parts, and maybe even add in a few items which you didnt need to change in the first place. Instead, if you went in and said "Hey, I need a 12 inch double overhead cam, 3 spark plugs, and a filter for my carburetor." - he'd know you know what you're talking about, and give you just the right goods at the right price, coz he'd be wary to overcharge you or trick you.

4) A merchant on Zalanthas would and should, always use Cavilish, wherever possible, its just 2nd nature to them, it helps them get things expedited, and achieves the optimal results in the process. Players who think that the language is a useless part of the Guild, are not thinking like a cut-throat merchant! Would a warrior trained to use a chisel to fight, when he's trained to use a sword? The answer is no. Thats how Cavilish should be viewed - a tool of the trade, and a very powerful one at that. Its not just an "elite" language, whose only use is "believed/percieved" to be, to exclude people around you from understanding your conversation.


Summing up - I personally strongly oppose the removal of Cavilish from the Merchant guild at all. If the players want a new sub-guild which includes that language, thats another thing.
Again, my experience is, that if your background requires it (as a starting skill), chances are very bright that a special request to the Staff with sufficient explanation, will help you out as far as getting Cavilish added goes.**

** Disclaimer: Of course this is on a case-to-case basis, and depends on your background and your actual need for the additional language, and other factors - which are usually taken into consideration by the individual Staff members.

Edited to add: I forgot to mention, that one of the main uses of Cavilish on Zalanthas is that it facilitates inter-racial trade between people who might speak different native languages, by providing a common basis for commercial trade.

[Synthesis]

[spicemustflow]

Really, what makes Cavilish such a powerful tool of trade for a cut-throat wheat dealer? I don't get it. What is the purpose of two merchants speaking Cavilish between themselves? It's not like there's much of a language barrier in the world if we don't count elves and savages and they're not likely to learn cavilish any more than sirihish. If its purpose is not to be understood or overheard there are better and easier ways to do that.

[Qzzrbl]

Telling a mechanic, "Yo, something's broke." in Sirihish is no different than saying, "Yo, something's broke." in Cavilish.

Same as telling a mechanic, "Alternator's shot, I've quoted prices from other mechanics, five large is a fair price." in Sirihish is no different than telling a mechanic, "Alternator's shot, I've quoted prices from other mechanics, five large is a fair price." in Cavilish.

Oh, and this is from the dox.

Because of the history of Cavilish, it is sometimes referred to as the Merchants' Tongue, since it is used almost exclusively by the current members and owning families of Merchant Houses.

And I know, it says "almost" exclusively-- but having every stinking goddamn merchant, be they d-elf or 'Rinthi, start with cavilish doesn't make it "almost" exclusive enough.

[Armaddict]

Every merchant worth his salt, would know Cavilish - its not a luxury, or something to do with finesse or a flare for the dramatic - its a requirement for merchants to deal with other merchants, and get the best possible trade - a merchant who communicated with another merchant in Cavilish would be able to achieve far better results than someone who spoke another tongue - even "common". Speaking Cavilish shows the other person that you are part of the small cadre of traders who has taken the time to master the tongue, solely to further your trading/merchanting/haggling prowess, and that counts for something.

All of this that you're referring to is exactly why I disagree with it being so easily had.  This isn't subguild material, this is devotion and training, and access to someone willing to teach it.  Hence why it is generally found within merchant houses and the elite, which the change would only serve to make no longer elite.

When you walk through the bazaar?  Those are all traders.  I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of them don't speak cavilish.  It is not required for business as you say, it's a status symbol.  Again, not subguild material.

[Marshmellow]

But you don't have to be a dedicated crafter with all the other skills that Merchants get too in order to be dedicated to the art of buying and selling things.

[Armaddict]

But you don't have to be a dedicated crafter with all the other skills that Merchants get too in order to be dedicated to the art of buying and selling things.

Sounds to me like haggle.

[Qzzrbl]

But you don't have to be a dedicated crafter with all the other skills that Merchants get too in order to be dedicated to the art of buying and selling things.

Sounds to me like haggle.

[Marshmellow]

No, 'Haggle' is skill at making deals, not dedication to making deals.

[bcw81]

Haggle should never be without Cavilish, it's like two versions of the same skill. One for NPC merchants and one for PC merchants.

[Marauder Moe]

Heh, I've never seen two people switch to Cavilish to haggle.

GMH merchants are (apparently) urged not to spread the language to outsiders and thus only use it among themselves.

Non-GMH merchants don't assume their buyer/seller also knows Cavilish, which is a fair practice, seeing as sometimes they like to sell/buy from people who aren't crafters.

[Synthesis]

Haggle should never be without Cavilish, it's like two versions of the same skill. One for NPC merchants and one for PC merchants.

Somebody's never played a city elf....

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Language skills are inaccurately represented by code. You can not be taught a language skill. You can only pick it up by random accident. It needs to be harder to pick up a language skill randomly, but it also needs to be teachable.

I'd suggest that the watch skill be the switch for randomly learning languages. In other words, if you watch the elf a lessened chance of the current system of learning a language is in play, and if you are not watching the elf then you have no chance of learning the language. Then you'd allow languages to be taught per the existing system for the teach skill. In this way, exclusive languages like Tatlum and Cavilish could be used in a public arena without every Tom, Dick and Harry learning them even when they don't want to.

[FantasyWriter]

A definite statement from staff on how they feel Cavilish should be handled in the game world, would be of great help with this discussion.

/hint hint

[Talia]

"help cavilish"

"help merchant"

Personally, I really don't think there's a need to say more than what's already in the documentation.

[spicemustflow]

Haggle should never be without Cavilish, it's like two versions of the same skill. One for NPC merchants and one for PC merchants.

Why? Does cavilish have like 20 words for "you're ripping me off"?

[My 2 sids]

When I think merchant I think of a city-type business person.   Trader... I envision more of a goods-mover/ caravan-traveling/ almost a rustic cowboy.   Where as the merchant might rely upon her relationships to make a sale,  a Trader has the advantage of specialized and unique merchandise.

Value
cooking (spice is a commodity, knowing how to use it would be useful + not the kind to rely on houses to provide meals)
shield use/ heavy defensive  (not a fighter, but someone who can at least reasonably make their way around)
Maybe even Guard (they probably travel with merchants)


But, because the emphasis is on items, not relationships,  I don't see having them over-lap with the skills that make Merchants and Linguists so highly prized.

[wizturbo]

Really, what makes Cavilish such a powerful tool of trade for a cut-throat wheat dealer? I don't get it. What is the purpose of two merchants speaking Cavilish between themselves? It's not like there's much of a language barrier in the world if we don't count elves and savages and they're not likely to learn cavilish any more than sirihish. If its purpose is not to be understood or overheard there are better and easier ways to do that.

I've always thought of Cavilish of being an adaption of bendune that includes extensive trade siphers to allow for math, measurements, and other descriptive qualities of goods etc.  I see it as a language that's perfect for trade, with an extensive vocabulary that surpasses other langauges ability to communicate under such matters.  For instance, the word "Erdlu" may have twelve different variations in Cavilish to elaborate on the condition of the beast to better elude to it's potential value or worth.  Being able to say (and understand) that a given flock of erdlu is in excellent shape, with healthy lineage and worthy of being used for breeding all in one word is obviously an advantage in trade.  Those with extensive backgrounds in merchanting obviously picked up this language.

The next and significantly more powerful tier of the language is the written form, being one of, if not the only legal means of city-folk commoners being able to read and write.  It's no surprise this is guarded by the GMH's, to help secure their strange hold on their respective monopoloies.

So yeah, being able to speak it should be a boon in your favor, but I agree completely that it should be accessible via a subguild.

[Mourn]

Whether it's a new subguild or just added to an existing subguild or two, this should be done just to stop the guild sniffing. I'm a week old newb and I've still had the random switch to Cavilish in the middle of a conversation to sniff if I'm a merchant when applying for a job IC used on me more than once. Adding Cavilish to some subguilds or removing it from the Merchant guild would be a great thing for those of us who are crafters but not guild Merchant. Special apping every single assassin, pickpocket, burglar, or whatever that you want to have get a job as a crafter/aide so they can speak Cavilish is not a viable solution to the problem.

[Fredd]

Whether it's a new subguild or just added to an existing subguild or two, this should be done just to stop the guild sniffing. I'm a week old newb and I've still had the random switch to Cavilish in the middle of a conversation to sniff if I'm a merchant when applying for a job IC used on me more than once. Adding Cavilish to some subguilds or removing it from the Merchant guild would be a great thing for those of us who are crafters but not guild Merchant. Special apping every single assassin, pickpocket, burglar, or whatever that you want to have get a job as a crafter/aide so they can speak Cavilish is not a viable solution to the problem.

Funny, I have a pc that knows cavalish, and he isn't even close to a merchant.

And Cavalish is a good thing to have, if you want a three way, pretty private, discussion.