Emotions in psionic communication

[HailTheAbyss]

Following on from the Ask the Staff thread about images in psionic communication...

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,40134.0.html

I have often seen emotions being conveyed during psionic contact - how often do people actually do this?

It really makes sense to me to convey strong emotions that way, as the act of psionic "contact" echoes as somebody's presence touching your mind.

I would think it would be possible to infer someone's emotional state through the pulse of their thoughts - these are living beings communicating, not machines.

Another thing that comes from this is whether it would be possible to only convey a feeling? i.e.

You send a telepathic message to the tall, muscular man: "I have stolen your favourite fluffy erdlu"

The tall, muscular man sends you a telepathic message:

     "*Utter despair*"

[Barsook]

I have only seen it done about a few times.

[Wolfsong]

Okay, this post may not make as much sense as I'd like it to since I'm typing it on my phone. That said: I've always been fine with both pictures and emotions through the Way, so long as (like the docs note) you do not force feelings onto other people, unless you're codedly empowered to do so. That said again, however, I do not think the ordinary person should have complete control over their emotions or thoughts over the Way; it should be a subpar way of communication because, in essence, it is widely unpredictable, not because it is inherently limiting and monotone. Why conduct a business deal over the Way when you don't have full control over your own thoughts, or potentially may not? What if you hate Amos the Merchant, and that leaks through? Or a naked woman sits in your PC's lap and suddenly that's all they can think about?

[lordcooper]

I've tagged very strong emotions onto my Waying before.  I think I've once done 'interference' as well, when a character was in bad shape.

[Armaddict]

I use emotions often.  Mind to mind?  I think some things probably spill over, and if that's not definite, it's at least a good assumption.

[janeshephard]

Most players will pass emotions when they want to and not implicitly. I think that is fine.

[valeria]

I do this very rarely, and only with very strong emotions or images.  Or like if I want to imply a stutter without typing a bunch of -- between letters, I think I've done that too.

[boog]

If I'm trying to send images or emotions, I think, in my mind, that the connection might go a little unstable and then outwardly suggest such.

[Potaje]

The unseen way is not a phone or cellphone, its not some disconnected element of communication, disembodied from the source. It is a direct link of the core thought to another, your mind to theirs. There would be the ability for a more coherent understanding through wave lengths, almost like watches a machine that could pick up waves is how I picture it in my head. Pulse, ebbs and flows of intensity.
I think that people over time would have learned to mask their thoughts, but if not practiced as anything else perhaps you would be more..naked, honest.
We play a text game, we communicate over these sterile disembodied devises and start to look at most things in the same way. Which can hinder how we perceive what it would be like when minds are linked.

IMHO

[brytta.leofa]

I think that people over time would have learned to mask their thoughts, but if not practiced as anything else perhaps you would be more..naked, honest.

I like this very much...

But remember that "think" and "feel" are real, coded commands for us, and if the person you're in contact with should be able to hear thoughts you're not intentionally sending, the code has enough information to make it really happen.  Your thoughts probably shouldn't leak through psi very much unless it's due to some unusual circumstance.

[Semper]

I'd say how you choose to convey feelings is entirely up to the player. Personally, I often use emotions when it is fitting to portray them.

psi (with a sense of sadness) I'll see you soon.
  is a lot different than:
psi (happily) I'll see you soon.
  and both are different from:
psi I'll see you soon.

I'll admit I've never sent images over the way. How do you portray 'the tall, muscular man' without describing the picture over the Way as 'psi *the image of the tall, muscular man*'? Just seems too vulnerable to abuse.

Obviously, having a conversation over the Way and face-to-face is a lot different. For example, I wouldn't 'psi (licking his lips) That cake was good.' since there's no way someone can know you're doing that over the Way.

[Marshmellow]

I only use the transmission of emotions over the Way when my character is intentionally broadcasting emotion to back up what is being said or to clarify what is said.  An example:

> psi *amusement and warmth* It could only happen to you, Amos.

[LoD]

The documentation states that "Psionic powers allow people to communicate across vast distances...", but seems purposefully silent on the method of communication.

Intelligent creatures can communicate in a variety of ways, such a dog growling at you, seeing woman with flushed features, being sprayed by a skunk, seeing someone waving in the distance, watching someone cry, hearing someone shout from outside, or listening to a voice through the telephone.  All of these communications are signals interpreted and assembled by our brain to form some type of message.  The message doesn't always have to be sophisticated or verbal for someone to understand what it means. And I would think that the use of and interpretation of these various messages would be fair game for mind-to-mind communication. 

I agree that there are ways some things could be abused, and it's probably safer to stick to textual communication if you aren't sure where that line exists.  However, almost every form of non-verbal communication is going to require a bit more creativity or interpretation to glean its meaning than its spoken counterpart.  I enjoy when people communicate with me in different ways, since speech isn't always the perfect vehicle for the message I want to send.  I've often used non-verbal Way messages when I am attempting to communicate with a creature that doesn't speak my native language or, perhaps, is so culturally distinct that we'd have very little common ground for anything other than base concepts.

Someone could very easily Way:
   "Let's meet by the dusty tower at midnight to settle our score!"

Someone could also Way:
   "*wavering image of dark silhouette standing near a dusty, red-rock tower, pale moonlight illuminating a menacing scowl upon his lips*"

As long as what is being "communicated" isn't somehow bypassing an IC barrier, cheapening the game by stressing legal limits, or attempting to power-emote in thought form, it definitely takes advantage of the fact that we play in a textual medium, as Potaje states.

-LoD

[Bogre]

I don't do specific images like sdescs, unless its in the most vaguest of senses. I do use feelings and senses.

[Pale Horse]

I am in the camp that is of the mind that communication over the Way is more..detailed, than has been generally accepted as the norm.  Thoughts and thinking are rarely as unemotional as has been lauded as the "way the Way works."  I have used emotional tags and images over the way, and not thought anything wrong of it (excepting the direct relay of a character's short description.  I am of the opinion that it is a bit too open to abuse, when doing so).  Communication over the Way is a mind-to-mind passing of thoughts.  Thinking is emotional.  You can't separate the two, thought and emotion, as if they were anything different from one another.  And if there is some sort of divide, then I would think I am safe in saying that there is something seriously wrong.

Now, how much of an emotion and which one's are passed along, that I leave up to the individual character and their player.  Learning how to communicate over the Way, and what you communicate, I would imagine is as common an undertaking on Zalanthas, as learning how to control your facial movements, tone of voice, body language and what words you use, to express yourself and get what you are trying to/not trying to communicate with someone else.

I mean, we use the Way to circumvent language barriers.  The various humanoid races on Zalanthas are similar enough in thought and emotions that something passed along through a "mindlink" can be understood, whether the sender speaks Sirihish or Alundean, and the recipient speaks Mirrukim or Tatlum.  Even in real life, we might not understand Spanish/English/French, but we can often understand the emotions carried along with them.  "Feelings" are important in spoken communication, all the more so in unspoken communication, so why not of paramount importance in telepathic communication?  It's intent and purpose and all the other "emotions" that are being passed along as "code" that when another mind picks up, it "decodes" and understands.

Then again, maybe the Way is completely different from all this.  Any speculation on it should probably be taken care up IG.

[Aaron Goulet]

I tend to use the Way for dialogue only, but mainly because I prefer to save the rest for face-to-face meetings.

[Lacustre]

This conversation has prompted me to add my thoughts, which can be found here in Ask the Staff.

[Kismetic]

I believe this would all fall upon the creativity of the user, which is, in this case, the character you're portraying.

Imagine for a moment that you can use psionic powers.  Now, imagine for another, a talented artist using the same power.  Now ...  Forrest Gump.

If you go by the documentation, the limitations are outlined.  If mindbenders are a freak mutation of what's already available to everyone ...  it would make sense that there are gray areas in between, being that some folks have a certain mastery over what they can project than others of lesser mental/image-based capacity.

[Rairen]

Wanted to quickly point out that I would no more go

Code Select Expand

psi *waying the image of the short, stubby man*

than I would

Code Select Expand

say The short, stubby man ran that way!

Why wouldn't I?  I'm not sure.  Presumably because I learned somewhere along the way that it's cheap to do that.  As a result, I see no real difference between:

Code Select Expand

psi *waves of wistfulness riding through the Way*  I miss my kank.

and

Code Select Expand

say (wistfully) I miss my kank.

Or, perhaps a better example, between:

Code Select Expand

say (huffing) I don't miss my kank.

hemote Even as she speaks, a hint of sadness darkens @'s eyes.

and

Code Select Expand

psi *stubbornly, sadly*  I don't miss my kank.


The difference is that hemotes have coded support.  There's no comparable command for waying and this is the closest equivalent available to us.  The ability to let the person on the other side of the line or emote "win" is one of the most rewarding aspects of Arm's code base and reputation.  I'd hate to see it too strongly discouraged because folks overworry about example #1 becoming prominent.

[Marshmellow]

I should note that I played a halfling and the halfling documentation required us to misunderstand when people used the Way to communicate with us and we were required to use images rather than speech in our Way communication with non-halflings.  Well, we weren't required, but the other option was not communicating with the WAY at all with non-halflings.  (The rationale: halflings have a strange philosophy and thought process compared to the rest of the world.)

Okay, granted there are no more halfling PCs, and everyone's playing characters with a more recognizable thought process and slightly more similar philosophy (or at least closer to each other than they are to halflings).  Still, I think it bad form to have required it of one segment of the population and deny it completely to everyone else.

[janeshephard]

Still, I think it bad form to have required it of one segment of the population and deny it completely to everyone else.

It's bad form to not have muls walk around Allanak without slave collars on. What you describe was done to uphold the suspension of disbelief in the world (not the realism -- bad term to use in fantasy).

[Kismetic]

Still, I think it bad form to have required it of one segment of the population and deny it completely to everyone else.

What you describe was done to uphold the suspension of disbelief in the world (not the realism -- bad term to use in fantasy).

Disagree.  Many people seem to be against this practice, yet, it's present in an entire culture, and the documentation permits it, without amendment.  I think MM makes a valid point.

[Marauder Moe]

I'm ok with emotion in psi's because humans are capable of conveying emotion in speech.

I don't like images in psi's because humans aren't capable of conveying pictures to each other in speech (aside from actually describing one).

Staff policy is that images in psi's are ok, though.

[number13]

Betraying my own past practices here, what's twinky about psi "*an image of a tall, muscular man*"?

The sdesc is an OOC construct.  If I'm trying to describe someone and psi "He was larger in height than the average man. Well-built. Hooked nose. Scar on left cheek. Brown eyes," how does that distinguish them?  How can someone pick that person out if their sdesc is "tall, muscular man"?  What's wrong with using the shortcut of the supplied words that do distinguish one character from another?

Besides, someone can magically look under your hood and/or mask with the Way.  They get an sdesc -- an image of the person. Further, you can contact a body via using that sdesc.  How does that mesh the idea that sending images is somehow difficult?   Can a person who has only "seen" Amos via the Way verbally describe him?

[Qzzrbl]

Betraying my own past practices here, what's twinky about psi "*an image of a tall, muscular man*"?

The sdesc is an OOC construct.  If I'm trying to describe someone and psi "He was larger in height than the average man. Well-built. Hooked nose. Scar on left cheek. Brown eyes," how does that distinguish them?  How can someone pick that person out if their sdesc is "tall, muscular man"?  What's wrong with using the shortcut of the supplied words that do distinguish one character from another?

Because it's just pretty effing twinky..... It's one of those things.

It's twinky that you can tell someone, "He was Amos! The tall, muscular man!" and then have that person pick Amos out from a group of Bynners that are all quite tall and muscular. It leaves no room for error whatsoever.

Lemme use a real-life example.

If you were told to kill "The tall, buzz-cut man", which one of these would you kill?



Can't figure out which one....?

Exactly.

Besides, someone can magically look under your hood and/or mask with the Way.  They get an sdesc -- an image of the person. Further, you can contact a body via using that sdesc.  How does that mesh the idea that sending images is somehow difficult?   Can a person who has only "seen" Amos via the Way verbally describe him?

And contacting someone via The Way just to get a gander at what's under their hood is pretty damn low, but at least players have the "barrier" skill to combat that.

Sending words and perhaps scant bits of strong emotion is one thing.... But don't be surprised if you get accused of being a mindworm when you start sending fully coherent and easily recognizable pictures.

[Nyr]

You can't contact someone by the sdesc of their cloak or duster or whatever unless they are in the same room.  This has reduced twinky contact-to-find-out-the-sdesc-of-the-guy-in-the-cloak by a significant margin.

[Case]

I never knew how against this people were. I considered words more awkward than thoughts or emotions across the Way. Audio is quite complex too. I also think in pictures IRL, probably biases me.

As for sending sdescs? I have no issue with it although I try to keep it fair. It's about as 'twinky' as me drawing a picture of somebody IG and using that. I always considered sdescs to be prominent or distinguishing features. Wanna use tricky words? Cool. I don't use those words in PC speech, but I will if I draw you or imagine you, because the words are OOC conceptualisations of your image. If sdescs overlap, even better. Room for error.

If that makes me a bad or lesser player, I accept that. This is how I interpreted the docs.

[Cutthroat]

I like using emotions in the Way, but I don't overdo it, and I don't see a lot of people do it. What I tend to do and see more is displaying states of mind. It's hard to describe, but sometimes a PC will be distracted with something else, or tired, hungry, etc. Those things will be as liable or more so to leak out than emotions, in my opinion.

I think it's interesting how the focus is on sdescs when we describe someone's appearance over the Way (or even in speech). It's strange how we forget that every PC has an mdesc too. "The tall, muscular man" is not simply a man who is tall and muscular. His name is Amos, he has brown hair, a burn scar on his arm, a six-pronged star on his hands, and so on.

So if you're trying to describe "the herculean, atramentous-haired whelp", there are two ways you can do this. You can do
psi *image of the herculean, atramentous-haired whelp* This is the guy that you must kill!
Or you can do:
psi The kid is large, with black hair. He's got a little scar under his eye from the last time we fought. He always wears a silly pink hat and silver bracers. Kill him.

In my opinion, the latter example makes much more sense. The former may be very descriptive OOC, but actually doesn't paint a complete picture IC.

[number13]

If you were told to kill "The tall, buzz-cut man", which one of these would you kill?

If someone were to circle one of those faces, especially one of the ones with a more defining characteristic, an observant person would be able to pick him out of a crowd.

But how do you convey that in a text based MUD?  If you know what a person looks like, you know their sdesc. That's token that represents not just the listed characteristics, but all the other characteristics (subtle and obvious) that would make an individual stand out as an individual.  In my mind, passing over the sdesc via the Way was a convenient short-cut. Instead of fumbling with trying to convey tedious descriptive information, it's less annoying to just pass over the token and get on with the more interesting bits.

My pet theory (and it's apparently wrong) was that images and feelings were easier to convey over the Way than words.  One of my unsophisticated characters tended to communicate more with emotions and pictures when using the Way, because I thought it would be easier for him than pushing civilized words through his head. As an aside, my other pet theory was that PCs were special compared to the rest of the population -- more adept (or at least possessing more natural talent) with the Way than the average Amos.  And because of this, they stand out more from the rest of the crowd.  If someone is talking about the tall, muscular man, they generally don't mean an vNPC.  They mean one the Important People Who Actually Matter.

Any case, if I ever get around to apping another character, I'll probably just stick to sending words via psi.  Like the rule about not using the Think command for OOC communication with present staff members, it's just another little thing that I disagree with, but ultimately doesn't matter much.

[Qzzrbl]

I like using emotions in the Way, but I don't overdo it, and I don't see a lot of people do it. What I tend to do and see more is displaying states of mind. It's hard to describe, but sometimes a PC will be distracted with something else, or tired, hungry, etc. Those things will be as liable or more so to leak out than emotions, in my opinion.

I think it's interesting how the focus is on sdescs when we describe someone's appearance over the Way (or even in speech). It's strange how we forget that every PC has an mdesc too. "The tall, muscular man" is not simply a man who is tall and muscular. His name is Amos, he has brown hair, a burn scar on his arm, a six-pronged star on his hands, and so on.

So if you're trying to describe "the herculean, atramentous-haired whelp", there are two ways you can do this. You can do
psi *image of the herculean, atramentous-haired whelp* This is the guy that you must kill!
Or you can do:
psi The kid is large, with black hair. He's got a little scar under his eye from the last time we fought. He always wears a silly pink hat and silver bracers. Kill him.

In my opinion, the latter example makes much more sense. The former may be very descriptive OOC, but actually doesn't paint a complete picture IC.

Thank you, I was in the process of writing a similar post up, but this sums it up pretty nicely.

It's so much more engaging and fun trying to find a guy based off key points in his mdesc anyhow.... Folks should focus less on "winning" (i.e.: spitting out his exact sdesc so your assassin buddy can shiv him as quickly as possible), and more on fun and immersion.

[Qzzrbl]

If you were told to kill "The tall, buzz-cut man", which one of these would you kill?

If someone were to circle one of those faces, especially one of the ones with a more defining characteristic, an observant person would be able to pick him out of a crowd.

I would agree with you if we had cameras IG.

::Edited to add::

In my mind, passing over the sdesc via the Way was a convenient short-cut. Instead of fumbling with trying to convey tedious descriptive information, it's less annoying to just pass over the token and get on with the more interesting bits.

And really.... You're missing out.

Sure, it may be a bitch and a half to describe a guy off his mdesc-- but it gives your underling/assassin buddy something to do for a while, which could potentially be pretty darn fun for all parties involved.

[number13]

Thought experiment:

The tall, muscular man contacts you via the Way.  He sends, "I'm the notorious thief and assassin, an all around bad guy -- the dreaded Amos. Can we cut a deal?"

You tell your local templar that Amos is presently in your head.

The templar asks, "What does he look like?"

Having never seen Amos in the flesh, how do you respond?

[Wolfsong]

At least according to the echoes that contact/psi seem to provide, you're being projected that character's basic image/self-image. You could, in that situation, either send the templar the sdesc or ask Amos to send you a more complete image/verbal description of himself.

[Qzzrbl]

Code Select Expand

tell templar (with a shrug of his shoulders) Dunno man.... He wants to cut us a deal, let's see what he wants....
Maybe we can lead him to a trap.


Ensuing plot and whatnot would undoubtedly be more fun than having one of the templar's cronies fly off and instagank mister Amos, IMHO.

BUT THEN AGAINST THAT'S JUST ME.

[Wolfsong]

Nobody said anything about pk, the thought experiment here revolves around description. That said, I think it's telling that the primary reason people fear sdescs being "given away" is because they think something negative will happen to their PC. If Amos was being contacted for a reward, I doubt anyone, especially the pof, would mind as much. That said again, again, if the player is fine with transmitting their own sdesc across the Way, I would probably roll with it and do so too.

[Qzzrbl]

Nobody said anything about pk.

True, but in this day and age, a PK attempt or three.... Or four, or five, or six, or seven, along with a price on your head are to be expected, especially if you're a master thief/assassin/all-around-bad-guy.

That said, I think it's telling that the primary reason people fear sdescs being "given away" is because they think something negative will happen to their PC. If Amos was being contacted for a reward, I doubt anyone, especially the pof, would mind as much.

True.... Though I wouldn't be against a system that allowed other people to set personal keywords for folks they meet.

As outlined here!

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,34854.0.html

[Booya]

I felt a bit twinky when I sent a sdesc, and it was only for something pretty trivial if I remember rightly.

On the otherhand, I can't remember most PC's mdescs - especially when they're longer than four lines.

For me, visual memory is easier than 'paragraph of text' memory. Especially when you have a long lived character, and you don't cut and paste the mdesc of every character you meet on a semi-regular basis.

So while I agree it's arguably better and more involving to use information in mdescs, it's also not always playable.

If I was describing the 'tall, muscular man', for my own personal sense  of comfort  i'd at least try and dress it up with a few extra words and things. Even if I was wincingly aware, and knew the other player was aware, it was just fluff, and I was actually more or less saying the sdesc.

It doesn't really bother me what other players choose to do.

[Marauder Moe]

Thought experiment:

The tall, muscular man contacts you via the Way.  He sends, "I'm the notorious thief and assassin, an all around bad guy -- the dreaded Amos. Can we cut a deal?"

You tell your local templar that Amos is presently in your head.

The templar asks, "What does he look like?"

Having never seen Amos in the flesh, how do you respond?

Same way you would in real life if you saw him briefly in an alley or something. A large male human. Useless? Absolutely.

However, identifying someone perfectly with 35 characters (or even one or two oddly specific words) is not something that people in the real world can do, and thus you shouldn't do it in Armageddon either.

[number13]

However, identifying someone perfectly with 35 characters (or even one or two oddly specific words) is not something that people in the real world can do, and thus you shouldn't do it in Armageddon either.

People in the real world can't use an sdesc to telepathically send another person a message.

I'm seeing the problem here, and why it might be considered twinky to pass along sdescs in their raw form.  I think that it is problem with the system more so than the practice, and leave it at that.

[Marauder Moe]

However, identifying someone perfectly with 35 characters (or even one or two oddly specific words) is not something that people in the real world can do, and thus you shouldn't do it in Armageddon either.

People in the real world can't use an sdesc to telepathically send another person a message.

That's different. Remembering an sdesc for your own use is fine. Relaying it to someone else is not.

I'm seeing the problem here, and why it might be considered twinky to pass along sdescs in their raw form.  I think that it is problem with the system more so than the practice, and leave it at that.

What?! Just because the system affords for abuse doesn't mean abuse is allowed.

[Kismetic]

But don't be surprised if you get accused of being a mindworm when you start sending fully coherent and easily recognizable pictures.

This thread has devolved into some argument about 'Don't kill me twink with my sdesc' or some jabber.  

However ...  if you do this, above.  Well, you sir, will have become the twink.  Read the docs!

Good day!


Edit:  Whoops!  Critical spelling error.

[Wolfsong]

I think you're misreading that portion of his post. He isn't advocating abuse of the system; he's insulting that system (collectively: you) and then declining politely to derail the thread about something else (the system) entirely.

[Kismetic]

I think you're misreading that portion of his post. He isn't advocating abuse of the system; he's insulting that system (collectively: you) and then declining politely to derail the thread about something else (the system) entirely.

Oh, well ...  I'm not even saying I use the Way in this fashion, but ...  I'm supporting it's use ... and really, I don't think someone's PC should be tortured, and pulled limb from limb because someone doesn't OOCly think images should be used in the Way when the documentation is explicit.

Pretty sure I read that fine.

[Wolfsong]

Not you. Other guy. I'm trying to keep up on my phone, but I can't quote/type fast fat thumbs.

[Kismetic]

Not you. Other guy. I'm trying to keep up on my phone, but I can't quote/type fast fat thumbs.

*facepalm*  I'm confused, now.  But yeah, I think I said my piece, and on-topic, for once!

[Wolfsong]

I will edit my posts when I get home to add in quotations, just for you. Moe's post before yours was what I was after.

[Marshmellow]

I find nothing wrong with sending imagery, don't get me wrong.  I am against anyone doing something twinky with that, though, and transmitting an exact sdesc is crossing the line.

[Kismetic]

I find nothing wrong with sending imagery, don't get me wrong.  I am against anyone doing something twinky with that, though, and transmitting an exact sdesc is crossing the line.

I would agree that this is leaning towards code abuse, and at the very least, shoddy RP.

[Wolfsong]

Is that (transmitting sdesc via Way) more abusive than players who write descriptions that are purposely vague and do not refer to short description characteristics at all? I personally don't see the mortal sin here: a sdesc is supposed to reflect your character's most significant physical characteristics, though often we see the opposite crop up (as an OOC attempt to preserve their PC's identity.)

Again, the problem here (as someone stated earlier) isn't that transmitting the exact sdesc is wrong... what is wrong here is that players are abusing this, so therefore then _it_ must be bad. If you can't trust all players, you must mistrust all of them.

[Talia]

Is that (transmitting sdesc via Way) more abusive than players who write descriptions that are purposely vague and do not refer to short description characteristics at all? I personally don't see the mortal sin here: a sdesc is supposed to reflect your character's most significant physical characteristics, though often we see the opposite crop up (as an OOC attempt to preserve their PC's identity.)

Again, the problem here (as someone stated earlier) isn't that transmitting the exact sdesc is wrong... what is wrong here is that players are abusing this, so therefore then _it_ must be bad. If you can't trust all players, you must mistrust all of them.

The bolded practice, above, actually IS abuse. When we catch an application where the PC's sdesc and mdesc do not match well, then it will be rejected.

And, not official staff opinion, but my opinion as one staffer: Transmitting an exact sdesc over the Way, or repeating an exact sdesc in conversation, is abusive. And in addition to being abusive, it's not necessary, because there are not enough PCs in the world for anyone to be that confused about which PC is being indicated; and a little character confusion could be a very good thing for plots.

As a player, if you (general you) attempt to get me to transmit or say an exact sdesc, I'm going to find a way to not do that.

[Kismetic]

As a player, if you (general you) attempt to get me to transmit or say an exact sdesc, I'm going to find a way to not do that.

Positively brilliant!  Because like forest fires, only -you- can prevent twinks.


One last thing on the Way ...

Has anyone ever used this device to flesh out their character?  To reveal things, other than some assassination target, to others?  Powerful memories, dreams or compelling images your character is/has experienced?

I think people might be missing out on some grand RP opportunities because the consensus is that the Way is like cellular phones, somehow (my phone doesn't bluetooth into my brain, -yet-), and are limited by speech.  I daresay, it's limited to your imagination, so long as you fulfill the guidelines in the docs.  If my current PC was of the sort that I think -could- take advantage of those opportunities, I would.

I can construct, detail and live out my own dreams, and I'm nowhere near a genius, so don't tell me that such things aren't in the realm of the human brain.  Plus, duh, it says in the documentation that all creatures on Zalanthas have some form of telepathy, the non-psionics being low on the evolutionary chain, died off long ago.  The very fact that mindbenders exist should make one consider.

It's kind of a bummer, though, to find out that people are so driven to win that they can't follow the rules.  That's not fair to people who do follow the rules, and find themselves helpless.

Just my thoughts, here!   

[Marauder Moe]

The impact of psionic verbal communication on human life and society is already understated in the game.  It is my belief that a world where psionic imagery is rampant logically leads to am even more alien society.

Yes, Armageddon is a fantasy game, but we the players are human and I don't think its a good idea to deviate too far from our own experience or else the game looses reference and meaning.

[Lizzie]

The impact of psionic verbal communication on human life and society is already understated in the game.  It is my belief that a world where psionic imagery is rampant logically leads to am even more alien society.

Yes, Armageddon is a fantasy game, but we the players are human and I don't think its a good idea to deviate too far from our own experience or else the game looses reference and meaning.

So, if I was to comply with the suggestion of not deviating from my own experience:

Then I would 1) not use psionics at all, it wouldn't exist, period, end of story.
or
I would transmit thoughts *primarily* as non-verbal concepts and imagery, with verbalized thoughts being the rarer form of thought process, rather than the most common. In other words, the rule would be conceptual and image, with verbal being the exception.

Since this isn't the case with Armageddon, and since the docs state clearly that both imagery AND verbilization are acceptable, I'll continue to use both, and throw realism and compliance with my personal experience out the window, where it rightfully belongs.

[Whiran Luck]

I was planning on writing something stupefyingly awesome and insightful, but I haven't had much sleep so I'll just post what I do and if it's helpful or insightful then rock on. Others may do it different, so mileage may vary, this is just how I do it.

Emotions/states of mind:
- Vague or general, even if descriptively worded.
- They should not be able to be explicitly traced as to their source.
- Should invite questions in the receptive party exposed to them, especially if they don't match up with what the other person is expecting.
- Specific details avoided at all cost. *
- Should avoid power-emotional-projection, as in project the character's feelings onto another person so they feel it too.*
- They should not be used as a literary device or to be purposefully misleading of the character's state of mind. *
- 'Controlling' what one sends over the way should simply be a matter of not adding an emotional *tag* at all.

*Unless one wishes to be treated as a mindbender.

Good:

The dumpy young man sends you a telepathic message: *glee intrudes on the mental link* That would be -fantastic-!
The irritable old fart sends you a telepathic message: *vague irritation* What?
The flowery f-me sends you a telepathic message: *lust roils in the thoughts at a low simmer, like a well-cooked pot of stew* Yes, I would like to purchase three eggs tomorrow.
The sandy lady feels upset/The sandy lady sends you a telepathic message: Yes, I'm -fine-.

Bad:

The dumpy young man sends you a telepathic message: *you can't help but feel the glee* That would be -fantastic-!
The irritable old fart sends you a telepathic message: *vague irritation over you interrupting him* What?
The flowery f-me sends you a telepathic message: *lust roils in the thoughts at a low simmer, like a well-cooked pot of stew because she just thought of you in a too-small pair of edible cactus panties and is extremely pleased by what she imagines* Yes, I would like to purchase three eggs tomorrow.
The sandy lady feels upset./The sandy lady sends you a telepathic message: *totally happy thoughts* Yes, I'm perfectly -fine-.

Expansion on deception: When sending emotional states through one's thoughts, either through deliberate openness or 'leak-through' to cue the receiver in to your characters current (even general) state of mind, means they are not actively controlling their thoughts enough to send a blank message. This obviates the ability to actually deceive someone as to the character's mental state, such as in the sandy lady example above. A more in-depth example would be:

Good:
The total jerk insults the manly man repeatedly.
>The manly man feels a large amount of hatred for the total jerk.
>Your mood is now homicidal.
>Feeling uncontrollable amounts of rage, you think: There is nothing more I want to do right now than squeeze his neck until his eyeballs pop out like those rubber stress dolls.
>The manly man fumes and glowers, his face an unhealthy shade of magenta. A vein pops out on his forehead.
>You send the flowery f-me a telepathic message: *the thoughts rife with vile, burning hatred* Talk to you later, dumpling.

Bad:
The total jerk insults the manly man repeatedly.
>The manly man feels a large amount of hatred for the total jerk.
>Your mood is now homicidal.
>Feeling uncontrollable amounts of rage, you think: There is nothing more I want to do right now than squeeze his neck until his eyeballs pop out like those rubber stress dolls.
>The manly man fumes and glowers, his face an unhealthy shade of magenta. A vein pops out on his forehead.
>You send the flowery f-me a telepathic message: *lustful thoughts full of warmth and and affection* Talk to you later, dumpling.

Any emotional/mental state sent should be reflective of the character's whole state, if it's open enough to leak through the thoughts. Even using the head to head cell-phone analogy, when I talk to people on the phone, I can usually get a pretty good assessment of their mood unless they are -really- good at compartmentalizing or not really feeling particularly one way or the other. However, unless they specifically TELL me what has caused this mood (I can guess to my heart's content), I won't actually know why they're deliriously happy or enraged. I do not think the vast majority of characters or people are able to compartmentalize their emotions to the degree that they are able to easily hide one strong mental state behind another. Again, purposely hiding a mental state by -not sending any emotion through the link at all- is fine, since you're not offering clues to your character's emotional state.

And that's about it. I try not to do the images thing because it's too easily abused and is beginning to venture into mindbender territory, at least in my understanding/opinion of it. I think some emotions are fine, under what I wrote above, but the way really is supposed to be a more rudimentary form of telepathy, and not a way to project your characters most intricate and complex of emotions into someone else's head. But that's just the way I do it, and if someone projects elaborate thoughts and images into my head, depending on what they are, may impact whether my character suspects them of being a mindbender.

And this post ended up being way longer than I meant it to.

[Marauder Moe]

That's not what I'm saying. Obviously the game has to differ some from reality or else it'd be boring.

What I mean is that I think psionic images is too far. I'm aware that documentation currently supports it, though. I think that change was a poor world design decision.

[X-D]

Nothing here, Pretty much covered, Its alright as long as not forcing on somebody and in small doses. Least thats what I get out of the thread.

[Kismetic]

I was hoping to kick around some ideas about ways to use psionics more creatively, but I think the way threads digress so fast, here, and the way this one so quickly degraded into the classic 'who's the bigger metagamer' argument has left me entirely disinterested in further attempting such on these forums.

Back into my clan hole!

Regards,
JR

[Nyr]

No problem, feel free to inquire.  I'll toss the derail into its own thread so that this can proceed apace.

[Kismetic]

Thanks, Nyr!  You're really nice.  I'll try to think up some pertinent questions beyond what I've already asked.

[Kalai]

... Okay, this is a derail too, sorry, but how about music?   

[Marauder Moe]

Interesting.  Personally, I have no objection to singing over the Way.

Musical instruments (and other non-vocal sounds) would be about the same as images to me though.

[Kismetic]

Musical instruments (and other non-vocal sounds) would be about the same as images to me though.

Very awesome suggestion, Kalai!

And again, disagree with Marauder Moe here.  Again, it's within the realm of possibility.  Great composers are capable of remembering entire pieces to the note.  Even your everyday musician can recall a piece of music inside their head (even if they can't transcribe it to paper).  With some concentration, I can recall lengthy songs, front to back.  I think it's more a matter of who can, and cannot, which should be up to your discretion, since it's your character.

The real problem is, for me, the same problem I find at emoting music (which I see done very well, but the Way presents extra challenges).  You can't just be like, "oh, a bit of mixolydian in 3/4, with a scraping nail on the bass string."  I would find it very difficult to describe myself, but there's one to think on!

Since this particular subject is -not- covered by the documentation ...  does anyone care to comment?  I, for one, think it's plausible, as there is a mental link established, and anyone with the ability to conjure music within their mind, could so easily transmit a facsimile.  Thoughts?


Edit, for Kalai:  I may be derailing the thread myself, as I've come to see it as a sounding board for what is and is not possible with the Way, and trying to get an overall gauge on whether my impressions are accurate.

[Marauder Moe]

I don't doubt your melodic memory.

I just don't like the idea that "if I can imagine it, I can send it over the Way".

But, if I were redesigning Armageddon from scratch, no one but mindbenders would have psionic powers. Take my opinions as you will, with that in mind.

[Nyr]

I don't think the Way is a peer-to-peer file-sharing network. Please don't store your music in the minds of others.

[Talia]

Lately it seems like I'm posting a lot just to say "I agree with Nyr," but, yeah. It's a fascinating and creative suggestion, however I don't think it fits with the gameworld, or with how the code works.

[Kismetic]

I don't think the Way is a peer-to-peer file-sharing network. Please don't store your music in the minds of others.

Ha!  I think you're right that it's a bridge too far, and at this point, and I may just be stimulated with the idea, itself.

Penned,
JR

[Kalai]

Okay, so freeform poet works better than minstrel. 

However much I might want to get a melody stuck in someone else's head, that's a bit difficult with text, regardless of how you go about it.

[Potaje]

I don't doubt your melodic memory.

I just don't like the idea that "if I can imagine it, I can send it over the Way".

But, if I were redesigning Armageddon from scratch, no one but mindbenders would have psionic powers. Take my opinions as you will, with that in mind.

I equate this opinion with the same mind set that separates D&D players from Darksun players. I saw this as a former player od D&D, because when Darksun came out I wasn't down with the psi in it, so didn't play. Though, I will say, I enjoy what it brings to Armageddon and would probably enjoy Darksun all that much more, now. 

[KnownUnknown]

It makes sense that telepathic information, shared between the two, would carry emotions. look at it this way. The echo specifically states that someone is in your head, and you are connected to there head. I think emotions SHOULD be roleplayed in it more then in general rp. Why you ask?

It's alot harder to hide your emotions from someone thats actively in your head.

[Rairen]

Okay, so freeform poet works better than minstrel.  

However much I might want to get a melody stuck in someone else's head, that's a bit difficult with text, regardless of how you go about it.

I played a bard who'd be limited to voice and instrument.  She'd mentally fill in the missing instrumentation (drum, bass line, whatever).  If hooked up with someone while performing, they'd get flashes of the full concert.

I'm also an unrepentant Way twink, who throws in contradictory emotions, unrelated emotions, and makes the Way experience a much more fundamental activity than the average player. Probably not a good role model.   

[palomar]

Personally, I don't use emotions in Way messages. I'm alright with simple descriptions of emotions in Way messages, but I strongly dislike when someone sends me flowery emotion descriptions in Way messages. Images, I think, should be reserved for those who have the ability or the cultural traits to do so.

Considering that it takes some effort (temporary stun drain) to send psionic messages, I also don't think subconscious Way messages to be very realistic. I've encountered some PCs doing that, through the years. Also, sending only emotions with the Way is also something that annoys me when it happens. Would your PC (in "normal" cases) really have the ability to focus their mental strength to send pure emotion and no message over the Way, through conscious effort? While this is a fantasy game, I think most direct human communication in this case would be word-based, perhaps with some emotion spilling over and affecting the "tone" of the message.

Then again, the helpfile says it's alright to send emotions and images as long as you don't impose emotions on the person you're in contact with.

[Ampere]

I choose to convey the emotional context of my character's thoughts via the way, and I will continue to do so unless I'm told by staff to stop.

[i can haz mantis]

I choose to convey the emotional context of my character's thoughts via the way, and I will continue to do so unless I'm told by staff to stop.

QFT.

Liken a way to a text on your phone. You get the words, but not the emotion and sometimes things can be misconstrued and taken the very wrong way. If the way is like a thought to that person, then they should be able to feel the emotion behind it and not have it be something ambiguous like a text.

[Bluefae]

     For my own rp, I look at the Way as another tool to attempt to convey my character as best as I can.  We're already hampered by the fact that this is a text-based medium, with all the difficulties that implies.  The Way is a welcome relief, in that you can communicate emotions directly in a way that of necessity can usually only be implied in emotes and even speech.

    I've also always felt that the mind-to-mind sharing, being at a pre-speech level (this is how it bypasses the communication barrier of different languages, or so I've been told), is really quite intimate.  I sometimes use it that way, to emphasize a point, or simply for variety.

    I like Whiran Luck's take on it a lot.  Even here, some of my more disciplined and/or manipulative characters could "talk out of both sides" of their psionic mouth, whereas others were nearly incapable of lying via the Way (or in general without numerous "tells").  I -like- that this gives us another axis to better define/distinguish our critters.

[WarriorPoet]

I've always thought of psionics as a mass of emotions and images and phrases that my character's psionically-acclimated mind is used to taking and forming into concise messages. If we're just sending blocks of words to each other, without inflection or emotion, we might as well go back to the generic 'tell' command.

[Erythil]

I find that treating telepathic communication as an exchange of emotions and a few images as well as simple speech makes for much more interesting and subtle roleplay than thinking of it as a cellphone.  It's called the 'Unseen Way,' and to me, that implies a bit of mysticism, or else it'd just be the 'Talking Technique.'

That said, I don't usually use the emotions unless it provides a subtext that the words alone could not convey.

[Dan]

My take on it:

It is convention to send emotions or images enclosed in sentinal
characters like *.  It is alright to do this so long as you are not
imposing any emotions on the contacted character.


Example:
   > contact sanvean
   > psi How are you today?
   > psi *mirth* That's really funny.  Good one.
   > cease

Which is from help psi.