Did half-giants get smarter suddenly?

[Qzzrbl]

I wish LoD was here to make a really long post that makes every go, "Oooooooh, wow, I understand now. Awesome."

[X-D]

Sprucebark does have another point, and I had the same problem with my HGs, at least getting a "boss" HG make great minions if handled properly, but man, finding a good boss is just this side of impossible, and even when you do, they die a week or a month later. Le'Sigh.

[Nana]

Post removed, see below if you give a damn why!

[Armaddict]

There was a good thread a few months back called 'hard roles to play' or something of that nature, and Half-giants were in it.

Lots of good thoughts there, Jriley and Malifaxis had some stuff to say that whether you agree with or not, is at least insightful.

Anyway, to reiterate what was said there?  It's a hard, hard balancing act to play a half-giant.  If you go to the complete ignoramus, you're doing it wrong or playing an exception.  If you play them too smart, you're doing it wrong.  You have to remain in the middle, which is often very hard to do, particularly in the early ages of a half-giant, and most of them are indeed relatively short-lived.

However, I very very rarely see them played to the level of intelligence this thread is insinuating.  I said something in that thread that I will repeat here...they are not blank slates.  They have thoughts, emotions, and can be taught, and depending on their background, that can result in a very different set of thoughts and cognitions than one immediately assumes.  If it gets to the severe point that is insinuated...an individualized character complaint is far more in order, though I'd request you phrase it in a way that is constructive feedback rather than harsh condescension, since...as noted...half-giants are very difficult.

[Qzzrbl]

One thing that always gets me though, is how alot of players.... Or "characters", actually, think they can just throw a half-giant a few pieces of candy and expect the half-giant to fall right into their half-baked plan.

[Marshmellow]

One of my half-giants had that happen all the time.  People would give my character something worthless but shiny or yummy and expect my character to turn over a pile of sweet shit my character had that wasn't.  Even a complete idiot can tell that a pile of precious stones that everyone's slavering over is worth more than a sweet bun.  Seriously people.

[Fnord]

One of my half-giants had that happen all the time.  People would give my character something worthless but shiny or yummy and expect my character to turn over a pile of sweet shit my character had that wasn't.  Even a complete idiot can tell that a pile of precious stones that everyone's slavering over is worth more than a sweet bun.  Seriously people.

There's also the option to trade back something equally useless that the half-giant thinks is really impressive. Here, have this purple feather. It makes you taller. An elf told me that when he sold it.

[Ami]

This info is all really useful for me!

Though I'm sometimes unsure which info is correct and which isn't.

[Synthesis]

I've tried to play half-giants within a few simple guidelines.  These are just a few rules I mulled over while playing half-giants, and I think they work reasonably well.

1. Half-giants can remember things, but they have difficulty linking concepts together.  So, for instance, a half-giant may remember the way to the secret fortress of Doom, and he may remember that Templars hate the guys who live in the Doom fortress, but he's not going to go off and tell the Templars about the fortress unless prompted to by some outside intelligence (which sort of leads into the second guideline).  Similarly, a half-giant might subconsciously remember a rather long list of names, but his difficulty will be in recalling them without some sort of prompting.  I imagine it as a sort of cognitive blockage relating to information-retrieval:  they can store information, but their retrieval pathways are limited by their inability to attend to more than a few things (see below). 

2. Half-giants don't generally consider the value of objects beyond their immediate needs or desires.  I imagine this is because there are somewhat advanced concepts of what is valuable, and a half-giant wouldn't make the connection.  This doesn't mean that a half-giant wouldn't give a pile of 'sid a second glance.  It means that a half-giant would take that pile of 'sid and buy a whole lot of whatever he was craving or needed at that particular moment.  For example, I've had a half-giant with five or more mounts/pack animals,a half-giant with dozens of full waterskins, a half-giant with enough travel cakes to bury a dwarf alive. 

3. Half-giants have an "attention space" that consists of 3 desires and 3 "actions."  One of the desires is always taken up by the desire to fit in with whoever they're hanging with.  What I mean by "actions" is this:  my half-giant will be able to think basically and take action on 3 directives or imperatives at any given time.  However, the "actions" should all be closely related by a simple concept.  So for instance, his "action" space might be taken up by 1) Keep the compound safe, 2) Tell the Sergeant about the elf he saw sneaking around, and 3) Report for training in the morning.

4. Half-giants are easily distracted.  They cannot hold many things in their "attention space," so if something new comes up, something gets dropped.  Existing items in the attention space get replaced  in order of habit.  If a half-giant habitually guards the compound and reports for training, he won't forget about these things unless something -drastic- happens.  So if Lord Templar Hardnose shows up to inspect the compound, my half-giant would probably completely forget about the elf he saw sneaking around, and tell the Sergeant about the Templar instead.

5.  Because of the above, they are creatures of habit.  Once a half-giant has a set routine, they won't vary it unless something distracts them, or someone gives them a new directive.

These guidelines allow a half-giant to be capable of independent, self-sustaining action without making them simply strong humans with a lot of hitpoints.  Obviously, there's a lot of wiggle room and grey area left over, but these 5 basic ideas provide sort of a skeleton from which you can construct a realistic character.

This was my take on the whole thing, from 2006.

tl;dr version:

1. Reasonable memory with limited spontaneous recall/retrieval.
2. Limited ability to predict and/or plan for future events.
3. 3-item attention space.
4. Highly distractible.
5. Creatures of habit/routine.

[Clavis]

This info is all really useful for me!

Though I'm sometimes unsure which info is correct and which isn't.

It all depends upon how you want to portray a HG, no two will be played alike because no two peoples styles are the same.

I see HG one way and others see them another way. all of it is good and rather sound info some better then others.

[Nana]

Post removed because I agree with Boog.. this thread isn't productive.

For the record, I still like Synthesis' 2006 post.

[boog]

How about...

let's just play the damn game. If you have problems with the way someone's played, write a complaint to staff about it. All of these degrading, arguing and mean spirited posts are the FIRST THINGS people who COME TO PLAY THIS GAME get to see.

[Thorg]

A good focus I find for playing HGs is to consider their highly imitative nature in all things. I try to observe the accents of others, or any emotes people my HGs deal with frequently repeat - tics, mannerisms. I try to keep a list of examples, then based on how long I'm exposed to these people, I try to adapt them into my own play as directly and as single-mindedly as I can.

This'd be hell if I did it for everyone my character interacted with, especially in a clan, so I use another portion of how their mindset was portrayed in Dark Sun - they tend to be drawn to charismatic individuals to whom they emulate. Personally I use this as a filter to find people my character finds charismatic and who personally I find has the sort of emoting that lends itself to the process.

I figure not everyone would like such a convoluted way of getting into the mindset, but it really makes me focus on what my HGs' mind is doing under the hood when I play.

[MeTekillot]

This thread ceased any sort of usefullness after IsFriday said the better way to handle it was a player complaint, not a GDB complaint.

[Malifaxis]

There is not nearly enough imitation with half giants:  fact.
People play half giants entirely too intelligently:          fact.
People want all the benefits of HG, with no flaws:      fact.

I have, because of this, largely begun to avoid HG players in the game unless I have exposure to them in situations that allow me to believe that the player behind the PC actually has a fucking shred of a goddamn clue what half-giant mentality is.

I have a damn good grasp of what a half-giant should and should not be.  I've played them repeatedly, and I've been given several kudos for my work with them.

If more players had the balls that The Few and The Proud (ie: what people call "the Elite") do, then they'd have no problems taking those flaws that HGs have and using them as the awesome roleplaying tool they are, and enhancing the world even though it is harmful to the PC.

Instead, we have a load of marginally dumb (and by marginally, I mean they talk dumb.  Somehow they can still plan tactics like Sun-Tzu, react like Jet Li, and are as cunning as Black Adder wishes he was) high-school intelligence superheros with the strength of ten men.

But now that you've mentioned it, Boog, yeah, I won't try to be the change I want to see in the world anymore.  I tried that, it failed... repeatedly.

I'll just write a load of fucking complaints to the staff, increasing their work load and distracting them from more important concerns.

You've shown me the light.

And for the record, I'd rather have one educated newbie, who actually listens to the opinions and thoughts of veteran players that do understand the game on a deep level and then takes that knowledge and uses it to better both themselves and the game, than have ten newbies who thinks half-giant = 15 foot tall Stephen Hawking in power armor.

[Lizzie]

+1 rep points for Malifaxis. I agree.

[Ami]

I consider myself a veteran newbie. 

[Semper]

A good focus I find for playing HGs is to consider their highly imitative nature in all things. I try to observe the accents of others, or any emotes people my HGs deal with frequently repeat - tics, mannerisms. I try to keep a list of examples, then based on how long I'm exposed to these people, I try to adapt them into my own play as directly and as single-mindedly as I can.

This'd be hell if I did it for everyone my character interacted with, especially in a clan, so I use another portion of how their mindset was portrayed in Dark Sun - they tend to be drawn to charismatic individuals to whom they emulate. Personally I use this as a filter to find people my character finds charismatic and who personally I find has the sort of emoting that lends itself to the process.

I figure not everyone would like such a convoluted way of getting into the mindset, but it really makes me focus on what my HGs' mind is doing under the hood when I play.

+1

[X-D]

I have, because of this, largely begun to avoid HG players in the game unless I have exposure to them in situations that allow me to believe that the player behind the PC actually has a fucking shred of a goddamn clue what half-giant mentality is.

With me replace largely with totally.

And +1 for the post.

[Armaddict]

Avoiding play is the solution to improving roleplay.

[boog]

Avoiding play is the solution to improving roleplay.

Well, that's just it. I feel that people being outwardly snarky about their complaints and arguments aren't doing any good. You -can- lead by example, I'm not debating that. Lead by playing a fantastic half giant. Just don't rag on people who might not understand it. I'm sure they already have notes and all that mess in their account about their quality of RP.

There are fantastic half-giants in game, and people who play with those half-giants that might think you're discussing their roleplay -- all I really meant to say is to tone it down. If you don't like it, complain to people in a more private medium. If you don't like it, play it better than them and show them how it's done.

I'm not trying to make us all hold hands and shit. It's just the arguing in this thread made my head snap, a little.

[Armaddict]

I was being snarky, Boog.

Earlier I posted to say that you should send a player complaint, but try and phrase it in a way of constructive criticism to help with the role rather than making it an all out 'You should not play this' deal, because half-giants are very hard to 'get into the head of' so that the play becomes habitual.

Almost everything while playing a half-giant requires some sort of assessment as to how well your character will comprehend it, and how they'll react to it...which makes high intensity, low-time-availability situations (i.e. You are a half-giant, and you just got ambushed!) easy times to let instinct take over, which is where people complain that you actually ran and in an intelligent direction rather than stood there and gawked stupidly at the sheer genius of their trap (which generally consisted of a question or two where they outright depended on you to act dumb as rocks).

[boog]

I was being snarky, Boog.

Earlier I posted to say that you should send a player complaint, but try and phrase it in a way of constructive criticism to help with the role rather than making it an all out 'You should not play this' deal, because half-giants are very hard to 'get into the head of' so that the play becomes habitual.

Almost everything while playing a half-giant requires some sort of assessment as to how well your character will comprehend it, and how they'll react to it...which makes high intensity, low-time-availability situations (i.e. You are a half-giant, and you just got ambushed!) easy times to let instinct take over, which is where people complain that you actually ran and in an intelligent direction rather than stood there and gawked stupidly at the sheer genius of their trap (which generally consisted of a question or two where they outright depended on you to act dumb as rocks).

Oh. Well, you worded it nicely. But I agree. It shouldn't be, "MA, JIMMY CANT PLAY A HALF GIANT GOOD", it should be, "Ma, can you help Jimmy play a half-giant a little dumber? He seems to know too much of the world around him and his vocabulary when he's not around other people is that of a high-scoring SAT kid. Thanks!"

See? You were being snarky and I didn't even know it. I have no idea why I quoted you. I'm balls tired.

Oh, now I know why. I do try to play with everyone, but if someone is overtly OOC and ruins my immershunz, I will probably just pack up. No use in playing a game you're not having fun with.

[Rhyden]

Avoiding play is the solution to improving roleplay.

Well, that's just it. I feel that people being outwardly snarky about their complaints and arguments aren't doing any good. You -can- lead by example, I'm not debating that. Lead by playing a fantastic half giant. Just don't rag on people who might not understand it. I'm sure they already have notes and all that mess in their account about their quality of RP.

There are fantastic half-giants in game, and people who play with those half-giants that might think you're discussing their roleplay -- all I really meant to say is to tone it down. If you don't like it, complain to people in a more private medium. If you don't like it, play it better than them and show them how it's done.

I'm not trying to make us all hold hands and shit. It's just the arguing in this thread made my head snap, a little.

I've been trying to get this point across for years, boog. What you have to realize is a. people don't care and b. some people think the GDB is as much if not more important than the MUD itself. I'll say it once and I'll say it again: If some Armers put as much effort, emotion, and creativity into the game instead of their GDB posts, we'd see a much richer caliber of RP.[/rant]

I've played two half-giants. In my opinion, they are the most difficult role to play longterm. Not only do you have to balance between being too smart or too dumb, but you basically have little to no means of creating plots due to half-giants' extreme dependency on others. And if there aren't any other half-giants (or uber warriors) around, sparring is out of the question. So, as you can imagine, solo-RPing with a half-giant gets pretty old pretty fast.

Also, as has already been said, if you witness a player playing a half-giant in an abusive manner, do all of us a favor and write up a complaint. There's enough deconstructive criticism littering the GDB already.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Guys, I don't even know why we're coming down so hard on HGs.

Today, I was sitting in the Sanctuary, and an elf walked in, and he didn't even TRY to steal my shit.
He should have been all over my diamond-studded steel dagger like a butchered demi-human on Belle Swan.

Did not meet my expectations of his role AT ALL.