Did half-giants get smarter suddenly?

[Clavis]

I've always wondered why people think animals are stupid?

If as it seems to keep popping up that HG are just really big animals then I fear what they would do, and ask why are they not in the top spot if their just big animals?
Look at alot of the animals nowadays lions, wolves, feral dogs, spiders, types of fish all use tactics that no HG would be able to think up in hunting their prey. Tactics that humans have adapted in many of their hunting ways, as well as in warfare, and modern ways of life.

The biggest peeve of mine when watching someone play a HG is seeing them talk like someone with a Degree in english. Big multisyllable words, and having intelligent conversations about things outside of what they've learned. Ie. a hg warrior talking politics like a Templar? wtf?? I doubt very seriously if any HG would have the skill or know how to do so. Especially not one who is taught how to use a weapon, march and everything else a warrior must do. If he's guarding a Templar still no it would be much for his brain to handle. and he'd have to 'forget' some of the old to replace the new.

I much rather see HG as Neanderthals, or some ancient civiltion around the ice age era.  This being adaptablity, the ability to mimick those around them without knowing the hows our whys, limited in their compacity to learn and grow as a whole, unable to handle the subtle things in life, or anything outside the box. Focused instead on what they are taught, or have picked up from watching others. A genuis among HG would be able to pick up maybe a few the more subtle things. If you told him to be a fly on the wall he wouldn't try climbing on the wall for example but after a few moments of thoughts he may be able to get the jest of what you mean. Probably foul it up but still that walls still standing.
As for their speech, it would be simple basic things to get there points across. Insult one of them subtly and I very seriously doubt theyd get it but be more like "HUH" all the while nodding and grinning.

[X-D]

Never been HG ganked actually, They are sadly easy to kill, but that is a different thread.

And Fnord, thats the docs dealing mostly with Code, and we are talking more HG RP.. So again basically belonging in a different thread.

The last section I can mostly agree with, cepting of course the child part.

Oh, and dwarven focus has been talked to death, but the staff answer is, all dwarves have a focus, regardless of how and where raised etc, so it has to be something in the dwarf brain not a tendency. And also another thread.

Edit

I also see them as much like neanderthals.

[Barzalene]

Either we've got a bunch of linguist-philosophers in this community, or this thread is full of crap.

Could go either way. Both things could be true.

[Case]

Edit

I also see them as much like neanderthals.

So quite intelligent?

[X-D]

Again, that depends on what applies as intelligent, I have already said, I have no problem with HG learning by rote, mimic etc, just no abstract thinking or imagination, the two things Neanderthal were also missing. As has already been mentioned, parrots can be considered intelligent mimics, that does not mean they are human intelligent, they have no science, culture or art....hhhmm, neither do half-giants...go figure.

[Case]

Again, that depends on what applies as intelligent, I have already said, I have no problem with HG learning by rote, mimic etc, just no abstract thinking or imagination, the two things Neanderthal were also missing. As has already been mentioned, parrots can be considered intelligent mimics, that does not mean they are human intelligent, they have no science, culture or art....hhhmm, neither do half-giants...go figure.

But they were just as intelligent if not more so than Homo Sapiens, with advanced tools and society? Do you just make shit up or what?

[Titania]

Just because they don't have a culture of their own doesn't mean they are incapable of their own ideas. It could be their tendency of mimicry that has a lot to do with it in my opinion.

Perhaps the docs are left vague on purpose. Until they are updated with more specifics I think everyone should take what X-D and everyone (including me) as merely opinion. Read the docs and decide for yourself.

[Wolfsong]

Uhh... Yeah. Neanderthals were not stupid, and were not uncreative morons, either. Also - big game hunting almost certainly required abstract thought to pull off successfully.

[Thunkkin]

X-D: Thanks for the quotations. I see where you're coming from, though I think you still interpret those docs a bit strictly.

The biggest peeve of mine when watching someone play a HG is seeing them talk like someone with a Degree in english.

If a half-giant spent a large amount of time listening to someone who uses big words, what other type of words would you expect the half-giant to use? A conversation with political nuance would be ridiculous. A conversation that used political words and phrases (usually incorrectly) would be exactly what you would expect. There was a h-g once who had spent time with a merchant. This h-g would make broad, speculative remarks about the current economy that were completely wacky, but were just spitting back complaints/comments he'd heard multiple times. The first time you heard him, you might think he was smart. Then the next time you heard the same comment ... and the next time ... and the next time ...

My biggest pet peeve is half-giants who talk like "cave men" (unless they're around other races that also talk like cave-men). If your h-g doesn't spend time around people who talk like half-wits, don't talk like a half-wit.*

*I am not referring to actual, historical cave-men or to people who today live in caves, but rather to the modern American cultural stereotype of how cavemen speak.$

[X-D]

You need to read up my friend.

Advanced tools, they were around for something like 200,000 years and never got past hand axe, heavy thrusting spear and VERY simple bone and stone knives? They did not fish, they had no art, they may have buried dead by dumping them in an out of the way cave, they did not eat small animals, did not trap, did not farm and lived almost totally on meat because they were not capable of figuring out things other then meat that they could live on, they lived in small family groups...I doubt that is any type of advanced culture. Oh, and the tools, yes, Neanderthal tools remained the same from beginning to end 200k++ years. Proof that they used what worked (like a HG) and were not capable of improving on that, most likely due to lack of imagination. All that time around and they never even figured out how to throw a spear. Something Humans figured out in less then ten thousand years. Oh, and they, like HG were not human, it is doubtful that the two could even breed.

And Wolfsong, really, what exactly counts as uncreative then? Taking more then 5 million years to go from thrusting spear to throwing spear? And Big game hunting would in fact be the simplest type, They are big, slow and easy to find, they have lots of meat....HG thinking at its finest.

Thunk, Maybe I do interpret them strictly, But I like to work towards the best model possible. Sure, I cannot play a HG to even my top standards, but at least I try, rather then pick some (blunt) Half-assed point involving two lines of the docs. Oh, and HG captain caveman speak is a peeve as well, I have OOC people on that before. OOC Dude, where exactly is the group of people your HG learned to talk from!!!...twitch.

[Kalai]

... I don't currently have the evidence to back up my claims, but I recall Neanderthals not only having art, but it being very likely they cross-bred with humans.

[Lizzie]

I think the reason XD is so strict (and why I and some others tend to side with him on this), is because too many people who've played HGs, have veered so far away from the docs in their interpretation that they all seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

The whole "talk like Tonto" thing - there's nothing in the docs that even *suggest* that HGs talk like that. In fact the docs are pretty clear, in that HGs are prone to taking on speech mannerisms of people they hang out with. And yet - there are HG players who insist that their HGs talk like Tonto.

The ability to strategize in advance - is not something a HG should be capable of doing. And yet I have watched HGs anticipate the activities of complete strangers, with an uncanny ability to follow through on complex strategem of their own creation (in other words, no one told them exactly what to do. They knew exactly what to do.).

We see players of half-giants playing like Tonto-talking, clever, complex, completely competent, thoughtful humans. And they're just not. So - rather than say "yeah go ahead and play the exception, that's what rules are for" we're saying "stop playing the exception, because everyone is playing the exception, and the rule is fading away."

You're setting the example for newer players who might never experience the documented suggestions of HG roleplay. And so they'll see the docs and say "oh - well obviously no one pays attention to the docs" - and they'll roll up an elf and wonder why everyone's giving them shit for riding an inix.

[Case]

You need to read up my friend.

Advanced tools, they were around for something like 200,000 years and never got past hand axe, heavy thrusting spear and VERY simple bone and stone knives? They did not fish, they had no art, they may have buried dead by dumping them in an out of the way cave, they did not eat small animals, did not trap, did not farm and lived almost totally on meat because they were not capable of figuring out things other then meat that they could live on, they lived in small family groups...I doubt that is any type of advanced culture. Oh, and the tools, yes, Neanderthal tools remained the same from beginning to end 200k++ years. Proof that they used what worked (like a HG) and were not capable of improving on that, most likely due to lack of imagination. All that time around and they never even figured out how to throw a spear. Something Humans figured out in less then ten thousand years. Oh, and they, like HG were not human, it is doubtful that the two could even breed.

And Wolfsong, really, what exactly counts as uncreative then? Taking more then 5 million years to go from thrusting spear to throwing spear? And Big game hunting would in fact be the simplest type, They are big, slow and easy to find, they have lots of meat....HG thinking at its finest.

Nice try, but go and read up yourself. Even wiki does a decent job, go figure. I also don't care what you 'doubt is an advanced culture', because you've made it quite clear you have no idea what you're talking about and all your HG rage is over narrow interpretations of the docs and your personal feelings on how they should be played - and as usual, nobody is up to par.

[Clavis]

... I don't currently have the evidence to back up my claims, but I recall Neanderthals not only having art, but it being very likely they cross-bred with humans.

They did, some of it better then others. They also may have had a spoken language. not just the previous uses of hand talk to get thier points across. They where also limited in their creations doing what was done in the past, what others thought up. They just went with the flow, do to lack of developed portions of the brain.

I'm sure as well HG's can draw crude and basic compared to what a normal Zal human child can do. yet they couldn't maybe wouldn't adapt as fast as modern day humans. Lot of that why we are Modern Humans and not naenderthal humans.

Which is how I see HG's is the fact that what they Know they know. What they don't know well they just dont. And will take hundreds of years to develop to begin to learn.  Through in magic and I don't think they would be able to.

[Titania]

I still don't believe that a HG can never come up with his own idea. The docs just say they are incredibly stupid. They would come up with incredibly stupid ideas on their own.

I think the first thing a Hg would do is find a friend or friends. The best friend becomes the one most emulated. And with the various degrees friendship come emulation. Then the HG slowly begins to convert from his last "best" friend to his new best friend over time before moving on when they die.

I think people read too much into the stupid part and not enough into the mimicry and need for direction from friendship.

And all our opinions are just showing off really. Even staff are humans with human thought patterns. How likely is it that any of us can accurately portray the alien mindsets of dwarfs, and elves, much less HGs, mantis, and halflings.

[Sephiroto]

I believe several of you have spoken your piece.  I understand a few back-and-forths, but three pages worth?

If you are unable to figure out how to play a half-giant from reading the docs and cross-referencing terms with other help files, then I think you should send a request to the Staff for advice.

Maybe I have half-giant intelligence and don't understand what there is to debate about.

[X-D]

Cro magnon art.

And the wiki on the subject is rather out of date, for instance, it is accepted now (as of august) That there is no evidence at all that cro-magnon and neanderthal interbred. Though that is europe, asia might be a different story but that is still disputed as well.

As well, most of what is in wiki is widely disputed and or out of date.

Though some things that are not in any real dispute is the length of time they existed and the advancement of tech, Or the timeline of the advancement. So far as I can find there is one finding that they think might have been a thrown spear and 1 finding of what might have been throwing spears. Art, seems highly debated still, I will withdraw my statement in the lack of such for the time being. Assuming body paint truly counts as art.

In wiki the average reference citation etc is 8 years old. I do get a kick out of one dated 2007 saying Neanderthal and humans probobly bred and another in 2009 saying No, they did not.

Taken as a whole the wiki entries are laughable at best.

Oh, and Seph, we have I think moved on to the GDB natural evolution in a thread, that of the MAD DERAIL!!!!

Edit again.
GO CUTTHROAT!

[Potaje]

I still don't believe that a HG can never come up with his own idea. The docs just say they are incredibly stupid. They would come up with incredibly stupid ideas on their own.

I think the first thing a Hg would do is find a friend or friends. The best friend becomes the one most emulated. And with the various degrees friendship come emulation. Then the HG slowly begins to convert from his last "best" friend to his new best friend over time before moving on when they die.

I think people read too much into the stupid part and not enough into the mimicry and need for direction from friendship.

And all our opinions are just showing off really. Even staff are humans with human thought patterns. How likely is it that any of us can accurately portray the alien mindsets of dwarfs, and elves, much less HGs, mantis, and halflings.

Well put.

[Cutthroat]

The Neanderthal comparison (even if the facts given about Neanderthal were correct) is just... not even relevant. From the docs: So a half-giant is not like a child or a primitive humanoid, but rather, simply a very stupid person, although this is a much more subtle concept. Half-giant stupidity relies on simplistic problem-solving methods; half-giants gain knowledge through imitation.

The Half-Giant Social Plight explains rather well what's expected of a half-giant. According to the documentation, these are ways players could and should express half-giant intelligence when playing one:

Low Attention Resources: Half-giants do one thing at a time and focus very hard on it to do it correctly. For example, if a half-giant is told to "bring back a dead carru" he would pass by just about anything but a carru until he finds one. The gurth he passes by isn't a carru. The carru is a carru and that's what he's bringing back.
Inflexibility: If the half-giant is used to using a certain club to beat a carru to death, even though the antlers stick him in the crotch every time he hunts one, he will stick to using the club. The club works, and even though throwing a log at it from far away will prevent his crotch from being stabbed, he knows for certain that the club worked before, so it will work again.
Perseverance: The example in the docs is good enough. "It is not beyond the grounds of reason for a half-giant to keep purchasing ale while waiting in a tavern, simply because that's what they do in taverns."
Lack of Subtlety: Again from the docs "A half-giant will tend to say what's on their mind, and be absolutely incapable of manipulation, deceit, or any other kind subtle undertakings." and "Half-giants are also practically incapable of thinking in the abstract."
Imitation: The half-giant learns from the ones around him, and is perfectly capable of repeating phrases he overhears even if he doesn't understand what he is saying. A half-giant raised by elves might try to steal but doesn't quite understand the complex process involved in, say, picking a lock or pickpocketing. A half-giant raised by dwarves might think he has a focus, but it's rather lame and ends up constantly shifting.
Overtrusting: The half-giant can't possibly imagine why someone would be trying to trick him. It can likely determine obvious consequences, though, if someone attempts to trick them into doing something condemned by those around them.

It's somewhat easy to understand, but hard to actually play out. Sometimes expressing half-giant traits requires other players to be careless when giving orders to half-giants, or requires the player of the half-giant to think of ways to misinterpret a command or plan to mean something else. It requires players to treat half-giants like, well, half-giants.

[janeshephard]

Non sequitor, forgive me:

I always felt a well played half giant is a little like Defendor, from the movie with the same name.
Naive, and simple but still capable of surprising people.

[lordcooper]

The Neanderthal comparison (even if the facts given about Neanderthal were correct) is just... not even relevant. From the docs: So a half-giant is not like a child or a primitive humanoid, but rather, simply a very stupid person, although this is a much more subtle concept. Half-giant stupidity relies on simplistic problem-solving methods; half-giants gain knowledge through imitation.

The Half-Giant Social Plight explains rather well what's expected of a half-giant. According to the documentation, these are ways players could and should express half-giant intelligence when playing one:

Low Attention Resources: Half-giants do one thing at a time and focus very hard on it to do it correctly. For example, if a half-giant is told to "bring back a dead carru" he would pass by just about anything but a carru until he finds one. The gurth he passes by isn't a carru. The carru is a carru and that's what he's bringing back.
Inflexibility: If the half-giant is used to using a certain club to beat a carru to death, even though the antlers stick him in the crotch every time he hunts one, he will stick to using the club. The club works, and even though throwing a log at it from far away will prevent his crotch from being stabbed, he knows for certain that the club worked before, so it will work again.
Perseverance: The example in the docs is good enough. "It is not beyond the grounds of reason for a half-giant to keep purchasing ale while waiting in a tavern, simply because that's what they do in taverns."
Lack of Subtlety: Again from the docs "A half-giant will tend to say what's on their mind, and be absolutely incapable of manipulation, deceit, or any other kind subtle undertakings." and "Half-giants are also practically incapable of thinking in the abstract."
Imitation: The half-giant learns from the ones around him, and is perfectly capable of repeating phrases he overhears even if he doesn't understand what he is saying. A half-giant raised by elves might try to steal but doesn't quite understand the complex process involved in, say, picking a lock or pickpocketing. A half-giant raised by dwarves might think he has a focus, but it's rather lame and ends up constantly shifting.
Overtrusting: The half-giant can't possibly imagine why someone would be trying to trick him. It can likely determine obvious consequences, though, if someone attempts to trick them into doing something condemned by those around them.

It's somewhat easy to understand, but hard to actually play out. Sometimes expressing half-giant traits requires other players to be careless when giving orders to half-giants, or requires the player of the half-giant to think of ways to misinterpret a command or plan to mean something else. It requires players to treat half-giants like, well, half-giants.

Damn good post.

The carru scenario could even be taken a step further.  I love the image of a HG roaming for days on end, hoping to find a dead carru.

[Kalai]

My characters often wind up purchasing ale because it's what one is expected to do in a tavern. 

[X-D]

HG arrives with pair of carru boots.

[Thunkkin]

Cutthroat rocks.

[sprucebark]

Definitely some good opinions on both sides and I for one will definitely watch someone a bit more before judging but my opinion on this subject is still the same.  I've played a few half-giants, even stored one I knew I was playing too smart but I got the best interaction from other players the more independent I was.  I've also thrown myself out there as a tool for someone to use and have been passed up by many players who played perfectly fine with my "smart" half-giant.  So, maybe the problem isn't just with the players of the half-giant but the interaction they are given by others.  I don't know, but I still feel they're too smart right now.