Recent desert navigation changes and game balance

[wizturbo]

Trying to apply normal game balance concepts to Armageddon isn't going to work, the entire notion is philosophically flawed.  Armageddon is attempting to be more of a harsh world simulator than a balanced roleplaying game.  And like in real life, the world isn't necessarily fair and equal.  

With that said, I can understand the immense frustration in having a character you designed on day one ending up in a place you never expected, and being codedly hamstrung because you don't have a single mundane skill at your disposal.  I don't see this really as a balance issue, but more about character's coded ability to adapt.

If it were up to me, I would implement a system by which you could choose one new skill at a certain milestone in your character's life.  Perhaps at 10 days played or so, though I wouldn't force anyone to make the choice at that time, just have the option available starting then.  The skills list should be limited to only the skills available through subclasses.  The purpose of this is fairly obvious, it will allow you to make a final addition to your PC, so you can adapt to the role you find yourself in after you've settled into playing the character.  

[Schrodingers Cat]

2. Give EVERYBODY desert navigation at a low cap (Yeah, I don't really want to give it to c-elves but hey) so that they have at least some basic chance to navigate a terrible sandstorm that might last for up to 10 hours IRL easily.

Every character that is properly outfitted has an increased ability to navigate in sandstorms.  One just needs to have the propper desert gear.  I suggest you contact your local Kuraci merchant and talk to them about your problem.  If they like you, they might help you out.

[Aarlo]

If it's unbalanced for some PCs to have skills that my PC can't have, then yes, the game is completely unbalanced a lot of the time.

Nyr nailed it with this response.

If one is so deeply concerned about game balance, this may not be the right game for you. This game is about actually playing a role, any conceivable role, irrespective of its "viability" from a mechanical point of view. It's not about the code, which is only there as a framework anyway. The heart of the game is found in the PC interactions, not the mechanics. I would wager that the notion of balance is irrelevant to most Arm players, and therein lies the lack of support for issues pertaining to balance.

[BleakOne]

Only useful thing I could maybe think of for city types would be an ability to auto-walk to shops, taverns and the like. Make walking places in a bad storm in the city easier. Not sure if it would be worth all the programming required though.

[Sokotra]

Just as an observation, unless I missed something, I think what it comes down to is this:

The sandstorms outside the city walls are the same as the sandstorms inside the city walls.  Except maybe when they are worse in some areas than in others - but I think we are talking about the overall effect that sandstorm has on a character and not the severity of such storm.

Is this the case?  Should this be the case?  If it is the case, would there be any benefits or detriments to the game by making sandstorms in the city affect you differently than they affect you out in the waste?  For example, maybe there is more airborne sand and dust out in the wastes so you really need that "direction sense" whereas in the city it won't come in as handy or be necessary because the sandstorms just don't put out the same amount of hindering/blinding qualities.

Or maybe the crowds and tall buildings can cause rangers and outdoorsy types to get lost more easily in the city.  I think I understand where the OP is coming...  I'm just trying to see both sides of the discussion here.

[Qzzrbl]

Meh.... Got along fine without direction sense before.

It's kinda funny!

Before Direction Sense came along, I'd never had any warriors or assassins get killed out in the wastes because of a sandstorm.

But now?

Dear gawd, I've had a stupid number of 'em get lost and die even -with- direction sense.

[Gunnerblaster]

You know, I've been thinking about it and it would be nice if Direction Sense could basically start off as one of those skills that, even though you may not have it to begin with, you can still work on it - Like ride, skinning, etc.

Everyone has some measure of success, after trying long enough.

[hyzhenhok]

Furthermore, since rangers can no longer lead you without passing a check (Every room, right?) and this means that if you don't have navigation you're basically fucked in an outdoors group. Provided the proper equipment I am sure this effect is mitigated, but really, we should be enabling people to play alone, with less resources, etcetera, not forcing them further into the clans where most of the game is already played.

I would say the biggest weakness of your argument is in this paragraph. [Item] is not particularly expensive, and is by no means restricted to clans. It's almost silly that you would try to wave away that options are available for the directionally-challenged with some a clanned vs. indie complaint (if you have serious complaints on this front, you should make a thread on it). With [item] and a little luck, a city-type can certainly manage in the desert, especially if they avoid areas with the worst weather.

Additionally, step back and consider what you're arguing here. You're saying city types should be able to handle the desert and its sandstorms without help from other people. Without any sort of interaction. That just doesn't fit with the game world, nor the spirit that we want to see in Armageddon. It can add a lot to the game when your assassin or burglar is forced to befriend a ranger or hire the Byn because they have business in the wastes (or just want to get from A to B).

[Gunnerblaster]

Instead of jumping on the bandwagon to shoot down Aphex idea, perhaps it would be better to see if we could take it in another direction while still addressing the issue of desert travel.

I don't think that PC's should all have the ability to ride, alone, through the wastes - Leave that ball in a Ranger's court.

Perhaps, like ride, no matter how low an aptitude someone has for it - They eventually get well enough to atleast handle rough weather without being constantly blown off course. It's a individual skill to raise unless with Rangers who, to my knowledge, have the ability to lead others with their own Direction Sense ability.

[hyzhenhok]

In terms of "balancing" things, I could see dividing direction sense into darkness and sandstorm navigation (you could call it city and wilderness direction sense, like we have with sneak and hide and some others), where assassins, burglars and pickpockets either start with or can gain some ability to move safely and reliable through darkness. Darkness is already part of direction sense AFAIK, but we could expand it.

[Scarecrow]

Armageddon isn't about a fine balance of all skills and classes being equal. It isn't a hack and slash. It's about taking on a role and becoming it within the world. Direction sense is something rangers and other subguilders now have, because it is something they are good with. Sure, joe non-direction sense could wander the storms for a while, but it wouldn't mean he'd still know a thing about what he was doing. I could hide in the shadows all night long and practice my mad backstabz skillzor on passing people, but even if I did that a thousand times it doesn't mean it'd be as polished, reliable and skilled at it as an assassin would be. Some parts of the game are coded to give some classes certain things.
Personally, I despise the skill of sap only because of it once robbed me of a beloved character. But codedly, I have no problem with it and don't resent others using it. It's more like a thing that's an enemy of mine I'm overly cautious of.
It boils down to the fact some classes just do stuff better. Want your fancy silk pantaloons sold for the best price? Get a merchant. Want Joe Sleezbag taken out? Get an assassin. Want a storm navigated? Get a ranger. As detailed and "realistic" as it can be, no game on the face of the earth can totally account for every last single thing. There are limits.
This isn't World of Warcraft or adoloscent choked Runescape, it isn't about your numberz. It's an interactive story which incorporates gameplay mechanics which in my book are pretty fucking good, and the best I've seen so far.
Anyway I don't wanna rant anymore.
P.S. Zalanthas is a tough world, people kick you in your kank-fly and flea infested balls all the time and you can't do anything until you're big enough to be the booter kicking someone else's balls. Until you wear the boot, you need a brass pair of ballls to survive. Endure and you will be great in Armageddon.

[Gunnerblaster]

P.S. Zalanthas is a tough world, people kick you in your kank-fly and flea infested balls all the time and you can't do anything until you're big enough to be the booter kicking someone else's balls. Until you wear the boot, you need a brass pair of ballls to survive. Endure and you will be great in Armageddon.

Well said and very quotable.

Edited to add:
If it weren't for the fact that it takes up more room then a signature allows

[Scarecrow]

P.S. Zalanthas is a tough world, people kick you in your kank-fly and flea infested balls all the time and you can't do anything until you're big enough to be the booter kicking someone else's balls. Until you wear the boot, you need a brass pair of ballls to survive. Endure and you will be great in Armageddon.

Well said and very quotable.

Edited to add:
If it weren't for the fact that it takes up more room then a signature allows

Some thingz r too grate to be kontayned  in a small box. Ayup. 

[aphex]

Furthermore, since rangers can no longer lead you without passing a check (Every room, right?) and this means that if you don't have navigation you're basically fucked in an outdoors group. Provided the proper equipment I am sure this effect is mitigated, but really, we should be enabling people to play alone, with less resources, etcetera, not forcing them further into the clans where most of the game is already played.

I would say the biggest weakness of your argument is in this paragraph. [Item] is not particularly expensive, and is by no means restricted to clans. It's almost silly that you would try to wave away that options are available for the directionally-challenged with some a clanned vs. indie complaint (if you have serious complaints on this front, you should make a thread on it). With [item] and a little luck, a city-type can certainly manage in the desert, especially if they avoid areas with the worst weather.

Additionally, step back and consider what you're arguing here. You're saying city types should be able to handle the desert and its sandstorms without help from other people. Without any sort of interaction. That just doesn't fit with the game world, nor the spirit that we want to see in Armageddon. It can add a lot to the game when your assassin or burglar is forced to befriend a ranger or hire the Byn because they have business in the wastes (or just want to get from A to B).

Rather than attacking a perceived weakness of my argument, please try to understand the thrust of what I am suggesting. I think that city types should either have some kind of comparable bonus within the city, or a marginal chance of success and improving over time by using a skill (desert navigation). That's really about it.


@Scarecrow and everyone else who has mentioned that Armageddon is not about balance. This is not news to me. I understand the drill. I just happen to think that if one environmental bonus is being handed out to one set of players, that the other set might do with something also. I understand that people may disagree with this as a matter of personal preference or game design choice or whatever. I am only representing my opinion.


I would've been fine had rangers remained the only "storm-riding" guild. I see a sweeping game change and would like to see its ramifications considered.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If it were up to me, I would implement a system by which you could choose one new skill at a certain milestone in your character's life.  Perhaps at 10 days played or so, though I wouldn't force anyone to make the choice at that time, just have the option available starting then.  The skills list should be limited to only the skills available through subclasses.  The purpose of this is fairly obvious, it will allow you to make a final addition to your PC, so you can adapt to the role you find yourself in after you've settled into playing the character.  

I like this idea a lot - though I would have more than one milestone. Maybe every ten days played you could choose a new skill. Whatever the math, I like the idea a lot.

On topic - I think things are fine the way they are. I did read the post, I did think about it, and I even thought about matching city skills, but in the end, what others have said is true. Armageddon has no balance. The balance is in the roleplay. The balance is in the world, via the cities and the villages and the tribes and everything else.

It's fine the way it is.

[Marauder Moe]

Rather than attacking a perceived weakness of my argument, please try to understand the thrust of what I am suggesting.

We understand.  We just also happen to disagree.

I am only representing my opinion.

And we're representing our opinions about your opinion.

I would've been fine had rangers remained the only "storm-riding" guild. I see a sweeping game change and would like to see its ramifications considered.

Well surely it's been considered by now at least.

[Marshmellow]

I do find it interesting that when the desert navigation skill went in there were people bitching that it was a nerf to rangers... and now someone's complaining that it's a nerf to everyone but the subguilds that got the skill?

Rangers NEVER should have been the only ones with the ability to make it through storms without getting totally turned around, or at least a large portion of the playerbase would say so.  Desert navigation NEVER should have been a perk but a skill as it is now with more than one guild getting it, as years of posts on the GDB will tell you, at the very least.  This has been considered for years.  Don't worry about it.

[Sokotra]

...And isn't it like, possible to choose Assassin and a subguild with direction sense?  Just curious... wouldn't that solve any of these issues?  If you've got a subguild that doesn't have direction sense then I suppose they probably have something useful in the city that the others don't.  Otherwise, yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing some other useful city skills if that is the case.  

Even if it isn't the case, like everyone said, the game is not about complete balance - so why not entertain the idea of adding some useful city skills for the subguilds that don't have direction sense?  Makes sense to me.  It doesn't necessarily have to be anything as powerful as direction sense.     

Edit:  Street fighting?  Close-quarters combat?  Still brainstorming on "city skills"... 

[Twilight]

I honestly did fine back before any of this direction sense stuff with a plain warrior, regularly wandering the wastes in bad weather.  My ability to do fine with such a character is now dramatically improved.  To the point of there being some strategic advantage to someone with direction sense, but no where near what the OP is making it out to be.  No where near at all.  Any large strategic advantage really comes from the other skills.

There also seems to be a preoccupation with combat.  The skills "city" guilds/subguilds get that are powerful are not necessarily combat at all.  Actually, if there was a comparable "environmental" skill, I would say it should be the ability to deal with a shopkeeper who would otherwise be closed.  That would be an awesome subguild.

[RogueGunslinger]

.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

...I would say it should be the ability to deal with a shopkeeper who would otherwise be closed.  That would be an awesome subguild.

Ooooo.

[a strange shadow]

The shopkeeps closing is the most irritating thing I can think of about this game.

[Whiran Luck]

The only thing really annoying about this direction sense stuff is:

In the middle of a city, in a sandstorm, in the day, when you can see everything around you: stumbling around and losing your bearings a lot in a row.

I could understand in the night, a blinding sandstorm (you can't see your surroundings at all), or in the desert, but I don't know. It just seems over the top for a city character to need a ranger guide in the city, during the day, when they still see their surroundings about them.

While I know the easy answer is 'pick a guild/subguild with direction sense', the above still doesn't make sense at all. In a way, I can commiserate somewhat with the spirit of the OP in this particular situation.

[Sokotra]

Exactly, which is why it really doesn't seem that ridiculous that certain city-guilds/subguilds should have some form of "city direction sense".  It sounds a bit silly, but it isn't at all unrealistic when you have sandstorms that are common IN the city and certain denizens that live on the streets and deal with those conditions daily. 

However, I do like the harsh conditions and desert environment... and I'm guessing there might be IC reasons that a certain area has worse weather than usual lately.