Recent desert navigation changes and game balance

[aphex]

First off, let me say thank Morgenes for this wonderful change. As an Armageddon player of many years veterancy, I can say that this change has been a long time coming. It is really necessary in order to make any non ranger character solo in the outdoors without massive grief.

However, this change has also resulted in a massive buff to EVERY outdoors subguild and to my way of thinking, a debuff to indoor/city subguilds (which really, for the most part aren't that great anyway. This has to do with the lowered skill caps available for skills like steal, sleight of hand, etc. which really make them less than worthwhile unless you're dying to get caught.)

Furthermore, since rangers can no longer lead you without passing a check (Every room, right?) and this means that if you don't have navigation you're basically fucked in an outdoors group. Provided the proper equipment I am sure this effect is mitigated, but really, we should be enabling people to play alone, with less resources, etcetera, not forcing them further into the clans where most of the game is already played.

Therefore, I propose that MOST guilds that have business to do outside of the walls (warrior, merchant, etc.) should just be given desert navigation at a similar/same skillcap as subguilds regardless.  Barring this, in order to make this situation more balanced there are some other solutions I can see:

1. Give ALL city guilds and subguilds some kind of city sneak or "city awareness" or "City navigation". Some kind of similar buff to the one that all outdoors classes received that will make them more viable within the city itself.

2. Give EVERYBODY desert navigation at a low cap (Yeah, I don't really want to give it to c-elves but hey) so that they have at least some basic chance to navigate a terrible sandstorm that might last for up to 10 hours IRL easily.

3. Through staff intervention, allow all players who spend any kind of significant time in an outdoors clan training the ability to have the desert navigation skill added. This is not my preferred option and probably not the staffs' either- IMHO, less interventionism, the less work involved for staff, the better.


Please, staff and players, consider this and give me some feedback. I want to hear some other opinions.

Thanks for reading.

[Nyr]

I don't think any of this is necessary.  You can pick a guild or subguild that has direction sense.  If you don't, you don't have direction sense. If it is a problem for you to travel without it, you will seek out other characters to help.

I disagree with enabling people to play alone with less resources, etc., as well, but that seems unrelated.

[aphex]

I humbly request a similar buff for all "appropriate" city guilds and subguilds to match the buff for all wilderness guilds and subguilds, then, Nyr. I don't think the solution is to "roll a new character that is more better!" I am perfectly capable of taking advantage of a game imbalance and will definitely do so in the future unless there are changes made.

Look at it this way. If I haven't picked a class with desert navigation, I am at a severe disadvantage comparatively when out of my element. Does any wilderness class suffer any penalty in the city? (Nope, unless you're talking about ranger sneak within the walls).

This was a major game change that has serious balance repercussions. It is my opinion that those need to be looked at thoroughly. Although I currently play here, my major goal is that the game remains in a somewhat balanced limbo.

[Nyr]

That isn't the solution I proposed, no.

Play your characters within the confines of existing guild/subguild structure.  If you don't like the current guild/subguild structure and your character concept will not fit, put in a special application.  If direction sense is important enough to you that you feel you need to have it, select a guild or subguild with the skill.  If you don't want to do that, it is not that important, by definition (or you find some other facet of characterization more important).  If you require it to get from place to place, you can seek out a person or clan in-game that can do that for you.

Direction sense is not something to which characters and guilds are entitled.  The same can be said about any skill, immunity, tolerance, etc.  We have a guild/subguild system set up this way in Arm 1 for clear reasons, and I don't see that changing in this game.

[aphex]

Right. I'll pick one of the umpteen subguilds that has this new immensely useful skill. Thanks for your advice. If anyone else can actually see that there is something wrong here (and it is still my opinion that it is) any constructive criticism or feedback would be great.

Incidentally, this is not about anyone being entitled to anything. I didn't decide anyone was entitled to anything other than a fairly balanced system and game. But you and yours (administrators) must remember that a butterfly flapping its wings will cause a sandstorm all the way across the Known. This change is by far more significant than that, more on the order of Tektolnes farting after drinking Firebreather. This change IS, whether you realize it or not, a huge buff to about ten subguilds. And thereby, WITH NO OTHER CHANGES MADE, it is also a reduction of quality of the other subguilds you might choose.

This really wouldn't have been a big deal if almost half the subguild choices didn't get handed this skill.

[Gimfalisette]

You're complaining because too many PCs can now desert-navigate, and you managed to pick a guild/subguild combo that doesn't have it? Is that the gist of the argument here? I'm trying to follow, but there are so many words. Boil it down for me.

It sounds like you're advocating for guilds like assassin and pickpocket (ie "city" guilds) to get desert navigation, too. I think that's a pretty easy "no, that makes no sense whatsoever."

[Nyr]

Right. I'll pick one of the umpteen subguilds that has this new immensely useful skill. Thanks for your advice. If anyone else can actually see that there is something wrong here (and it is still my opinion that it is) any constructive criticism or feedback would be great.

Ok, I'll look over your original post and go into more depth, though I won't respond with the bitter sarcasm you have dipped into here.   I (and other staffers and players) appreciate new ideas and answering the questions/concerns of players out there, definitely.  For the record, if you're asking for feedback from staff, don't get ticked when the answer isn't one you were looking for.

First off, let me say thank Morgenes for this wonderful change. As an Armageddon player of many years veterancy, I can say that this change has been a long time coming. It is really necessary in order to make any non ranger character solo in the outdoors without massive grief.

It is a welcome change, yes, but the game was not necessarily broken beforehand.  Things functioned.  This is a good change and it enables more interaction between players, I definitely agree.

However, this change has also resulted in a massive buff to EVERY outdoors subguild

I'll stop on this point first.  This is your opinion, and I believe it to be hyperbolic.

From the helpfile:

Code Select Expand

Skill Direction Sense                                          (Perception)

   Direction sense is a skill that allows you to keep going the way you
intend even in blinding storms and complete darkness.  Everyone has some
small ability to do this intrinsically, but there are some who excel at it
above others.

Delay:
   none

So everyone has it already, some have it more than others, but "massive buff" is probably over the top.

and to my way of thinking, a debuff to indoor/city subguilds

That seems a little specious.  Some magickers have the ability to fly; is this a debuff on all mundanes?  Increasing the realism of the world and the usefulness of some subguilds and one guild in particular does not = a debuff on all the rest.

(which really, for the most part aren't that great anyway. This has to do with the lowered skill caps available for skills like steal, sleight of hand, etc. which really make them less than worthwhile unless you're dying to get caught.)

Well, they are called subguilds.

Furthermore, since rangers can no longer lead you without passing a check (Every room, right?) and this means that if you don't have navigation you're basically fucked in an outdoors group.

If the situation calls for it, and if you are in a storm/other visibility-obscuring area, and if you are not wearing proper gear to muck about in the nastiness that is Zalanthas, and if your outdoors group has not a single outdoorsy guild/subguild, then yes.  You're basically fucked.  You may as well leave take off your boots and tattoo "this ass is yours!" in heshrak across your chest.   

Provided the proper equipment I am sure this effect is mitigated,

Yes, it is, to an extent.

but really, we should be enabling people to play alone, with less resources, etcetera, not forcing them further into the clans where most of the game is already played.

There's ample opportunity for players to play alone.  This can be done as a ranger, a crafter, etc.  If you're playing a multiplayer game to play alone, I'm not sure you're doing it for the right reasons.   

Therefore, I propose that MOST guilds that have business to do outside of the walls (warrior, merchant, etc.) should just be given desert navigation at a similar/same skillcap as subguilds regardless.

If you plan in advance for your character to do business outside of the walls (and find the lack of direction sense to be a complete cock-block to your traveling ability) and you don't want to rely on another PC with direction sense, the Byn, a Merchant House, a Noble House, the Templarate, or a magicker, then I would humbly suggest you pick a subguild or main guild that has the ability.

  Barring this, in order to make this situation more balanced there are some other solutions I can see:

1. Give ALL city guilds and subguilds some kind of city sneak or "city awareness" or "City navigation". Some kind of similar buff to the one that all outdoors classes received that will make them more viable within the city itself.

City awareness?  How would it work, exactly?  What similar buff?  Should they innately know where the nearest bathroom/bar/etc is?  The maps already do this to an extent.  City-sneak?  There's no real reason for it that I can see.  If you just want it to balance out some guilds having direction sense, then no, I don't think this is a viable solution to pursue.

2. Give EVERYBODY desert navigation at a low cap (Yeah, I don't really want to give it to c-elves but hey) so that they have at least some basic chance to navigate a terrible sandstorm that might last for up to 10 hours IRL easily.

Per the helpfile, everyone has some form of it, only some are better than others.  If your character's survival depends on navigation, you should pick a guild/subguild that deals with that.

3. Through staff intervention, allow all players who spend any kind of significant time in an outdoors clan training the ability to have the desert navigation skill added. This is not my preferred option and probably not the staffs' either- IMHO, less interventionism, the less work involved for staff, the better.

I don't see why this couldn't be done, technically.  It'd take a while.  You could also ask for it via special application.

Please, staff and players, consider this and give me some feedback. I want to hear some other opinions.

Thanks for reading.

I did consider it.  I didn't give you the play-by-play thought process because I thought the summary would do--I happened to be online and have the free time to post about it.  Feel free to continue soliciting discussion from others if you'd like.

[aphex]

Gimf, to put it simply and succinctly, your description of what I am talking about is rather disingenuous at best, and basically says you didn't read the post.

In an ideal world I am advocating that city oriented types get some kind of environmental advantage that is comparable to the one provided for "outdoors" types as a result of this change.

Believe you me, my next character will be an assassin that can sneak in the wilderness AND desert navigate. My issue is not one pertaining to my ability to select an awesome guild and subguild combo.

Nyr, thank you for the blow by blow. This makes more sense than "Dood, you fucked up and roll a new character". I still think that there is a balance issue here given that 95% of the game is outdoors and 100% of all outdoors subguilds have just been buffed.

[Nyr]

If you have new material to add to the discussion, I'd recommend making a new post.

This change IS, whether you realize it or not, a huge buff to about ten subguilds.

It is a skill bump to six subguilds.

And thereby, WITH NO OTHER CHANGES MADE, it is also a reduction of quality of the other subguilds you might choose.

Only if you deem direction sense to be the end-all, be-all of character priority.  I only marginally consider it in the grand scheme of things, confident that if my character needs to, he/she can find some way of traveling without the ability.

This really wouldn't have been a big deal if almost half the subguild choices didn't get handed this skill.

It's actually a quarter (6/24).

[Gimfalisette]

Gimf, to put it simply and succinctly, your description of what I am talking about is rather disingenuous at best, and basically says you didn't read the post.

<snip>

I still think that there is a balance issue here given that 95% of the game is outdoors and 100% of all outdoors subguilds have just been buffed.

I think I indicated that your post was a little tl;dr for me, yes. I'm not trying to be disingenous, what it honestly sounds like is that you picked the wrong guild/subguild combo for something you now wish you could do. But that's really the way the cookie crumbles, in ARM. Characters often need to be interdependent. I like that about our game.

It sounds like you don't really prefer "indoor" types of characters or play them often, with your assertion about how much of the game is outdoors versus indoors. I don't agree with your statement about how much of the game happens where...like...at all. That's your perception, not reality. And if you prefer the outdoors aspects of the game, well then, plan better.

[aphex]

25% of all subguilds is still a major game change. Anyway, thanks for discussing it with me. I am, again, for the record, not really concerned about my current character. I can still special app, i can still ask for skills to be added, I can die and reroll. i just don't think i should have to. Nor do I plan on taking advantage of the system to get what I want, when I believe the system is inherently flawed in terms of balance. i think my city subguild should have some kind of environmental bonus comparable to the one that wilderness subguilds now have. That is all.

[Marauder Moe]

I'm not sure I understand.  Are the city characters fighting the wilderness characters?

[Nyr]

If it's unbalanced for some PCs to have skills that my PC can't have, then yes, the game is completely unbalanced a lot of the time.

[aphex]

I'm not sure I understand.  Are the city characters fighting the wilderness characters?

Armageddon is conflict-centric. If i want to roll my assassin or warrior/thug or whatever out into the dunes and backstab/sap your ranger, I better hope there's no storm around. If said ranger wants to enter the Rinth at night, what penalties does he suffer? Any at all? In a crowded city, for one thing, it's REALLY EASY to conceal yourself in a crowd. if you grew up within the city walls and spent most of your life there, why wouldn't you be able to raise your hood and hide in the crowd? Just the same as someone who spent their whole life in the wastes has some ability to navigate the storm, I should be able to navigate my city with an advantage, or a penalty to my ill-guilded opponents.

[aphex]

this is not about "gimme what u got". This is about "here is a system for dictating who has an advantage. Now, we're going to set it up so some people are penalized and others are rewarded." I would like this system to be consistent throughout. I don't care that I can't fly. I just care that I don't have anything at all going for me as a city subguild compared to a wilderness subguild in my own comfort zone (the environment my character was born and raised in).

[Gimfalisette]

Ah. With regards to the city guilds/subguilds, they already have what they need as far as coded advantages for city navigation. I think you are perhaps not very well-informed on the subject, and you should try playing some, sometime. But we shouldn't be discussing here what skills the city guilds/subguilds do or do not get.

[Marauder Moe]

I'm not sure I understand.  Are the city characters fighting the wilderness characters?

Armageddon is conflict-centric. If i want to roll my assassin or warrior/thug or whatever out into the dunes and backstab/sap your ranger, I better hope there's no storm around. If said ranger wants to enter the Rinth at night, what penalties does he suffer? Any at all?

Well, for one thing, there's the fact that the ranger's hide, sneak, and scan skills won't work right.

[Nyr]

And on top of that, he can't ride a mount there. Rangers can be super deadly on mounts.

[Cutthroat]

this is not about "gimme what u got". This is about "here is a system for dictating who has an advantage. Now, we're going to set it up so some people are penalized and others are rewarded." I would like this system to be consistent throughout. I don't care that I can't fly. I just care that I don't have anything at all going for me as a city subguild compared to a wilderness subguild in my own comfort zone (the environment my character was born and raised in).

When you're picking a city subguild as opposed to a wilderness subguild, you're getting something that would help a character in the city. I think the argument that desert navigation subguilds get something other subguilds can't match to is misleading. Without going into the skills the subguilds offer, a lot of the subguilds' descriptions hint at things that would be useful for a city-slicker. A lot of the crafting subguilds come to mind, as well as a few others.

Why add a special city skill if those subguilds still offer something useful? You may contend that they actually aren't useful at all, but they are at least good for subguild standards. A desert navigator has the advantage of traveling in the desert, but can he make a helmet or speak three languages? Not necessarily.

[Marauder Moe]

Aphex, I would also suggest that you consider that Armageddon is not a symmetric game.  City characters are not the Alliance and rangers are not the Horde.  There isn't really a battle between the two, and thus there's not really a need for "balance", environmentally considerate or otherwise.

[brytta.leofa]

Were we hell-bent on balance, I think the proper city analogue to direction sense is, well, direction sense.  You could penalize direction sense in the city for wilderness guilds/subguilds, and boost it for city guilds.

But I haven't really noticed my PCs getting turned around in the city on dark, stormy nights the way they did a couple years ago.

[jstorrie]

And on top of that, he can't ride a mount there. Rangers can be super deadly on mounts.

Also he can't explode Rinth corpses into valuable piles of loot with >skin body.

[Gunnerblaster]

Listen, Aphex - The way it was before, ONLY rangers could do anything with a measure of success in a sandstorm/darkness.

Now we have multiple subguilds with that ability that, prior, they didn't.

[jriley]

First off, let me say thank Morgenes for this wonderful change. As an Armageddon player of many years veterancy, I can say that this change has been a long time coming. It is really necessary in order to make any non ranger character solo in the outdoors without massive grief.

However, this change has also resulted in a massive buff to EVERY outdoors subguild and to my way of thinking, a debuff to indoor/city subguilds (which really, for the most part aren't that great anyway. This has to do with the lowered skill caps available for skills like steal, sleight of hand, etc. which really make them less than worthwhile unless you're dying to get caught.)

Furthermore, since rangers can no longer lead you without passing a check (Every room, right?) and this means that if you don't have navigation you're basically fucked in an outdoors group. Provided the proper equipment I am sure this effect is mitigated, but really, we should be enabling people to play alone, with less resources, etcetera, not forcing them further into the clans where most of the game is already played.

Therefore, I propose that MOST guilds that have business to do outside of the walls (warrior, merchant, etc.) should just be given desert navigation at a similar/same skillcap as subguilds regardless.  Barring this, in order to make this situation more balanced there are some other solutions I can see:

1. Give ALL city guilds and subguilds some kind of city sneak or "city awareness" or "City navigation". Some kind of similar buff to the one that all outdoors classes received that will make them more viable within the city itself.

2. Give EVERYBODY desert navigation at a low cap (Yeah, I don't really want to give it to c-elves but hey) so that they have at least some basic chance to navigate a terrible sandstorm that might last for up to 10 hours IRL easily.

3. Through staff intervention, allow all players who spend any kind of significant time in an outdoors clan training the ability to have the desert navigation skill added. This is not my preferred option and probably not the staffs' either- IMHO, less interventionism, the less work involved for staff, the better.


Please, staff and players, consider this and give me some feedback. I want to hear some other opinions.

Thanks for reading.

Not a bad idea, however I think that the changes that you're proposing would prove unpopular.  It was a bold suggestion, however.

All the same, I suspect that the ramifications that you fear may not prove as severe as you worry they could be.

[aphex]

Thanks for the input. This reaction is pretty much what I expected, but I appreciate the time that you guys took to address my idea.