Sociopath

[Fredd]

The true irony of this is that the 'feel' command is the perfect place to show that disconnect and truly get into the flesh of your sociopath.

Most excellent and true!

The argument can also be made that sociopathy - and even moreso psychopathy - is an evolutionary adaptation to an environment where one's own society is the greatest threat to their survival.  In that case it would be common enough on Zalanthas to hardly even be worth mention, much less be considered aberrant.

Actually, I seriously doubt you could put together a cogent argument for that, because it's patently absurd.  ...

tl;dr;waiting for the annotated

I somehow doubt sociopaths are as rare on Zalanthas as they are on Earth (if indeed they are even that rare on Earth).  Your average Zalanthan likely would have endured some sort of trauma in their early development that would lead to at least bearing some of these symptoms.  I don't think it has to do with evolution, per se ...   but I do agree that it would be seen as less aberrant.

That said, a lot of behavior of sociopaths that we understand as bad would likely be less relevant on Zalanthas, yes?

I was specifically commenting on the idea that the behavior in question could be an adaptive mechanism and be selected for.  I'm sure there are plenty of crazies on Zalanthas--that doesn't necessarily (or even probably) mean that it's a positive adaptation. 

I would probably argue that the vast majority of these have more to do with environmental influences than genotype, although there you start to get into somewhat murky philosophical territory regarding specific genotypes that may or may not be particularly adaptive in certain very limited socioeconomic niches.  My previous argument still holds on the level of the general population, however.

As far as how such persons are treated by the local populace, I would tend to take a somewhat harsher approach, given the scarcity of resources on Zalanthas.  When you're always only one waterskin away from dying, I suspect you'd be slightly more attuned to behaviors that deviate from reciprocity, and far less willing to allow them to continue unchecked.

Just going to add that certain social institutions may actually select for certain anti-social behaviors. Particularly competitive meritocracies.

This is an interesting article that links cheating in school with psychopathy. It doesn't really surprise me that business students are more likely to cheat and are more likely to be (non-clinically) anti-social. (no offense to any business students here)

Now imagine a Templar school and make it like 100 times more competitive and much less inhibitive.

Fairly certain you have to be a sociopath, or a meglomaniac to pass templar school in the south. Heh

[Synthesis]

Before we go too far into the woods, here are the DSM-IV criteria for antisocial personality disorder (a.k.a. sociopathy).

   1.There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:
        (1)  failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
        (2)  deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
        (3)  impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
        (4)  irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
        (5)  reckless disregard for the safety of self or others
        (6)  consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
        (7)  lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another
   2.The individual is at least age 18 years.
   3.There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years.
   4.The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or a manic episode.

Comment:
(1) Would probably be a very bad thing for an up-and-coming templar.
(2) Would be characteristic, but arguably this could not be considered a disorder within a society where it is effectively a social norm, except from an outsider's perspective.  Zalanthans probably would not consider this to be aberrant, and manifestation of this characteristic would not require an underlying personality disorder when they're essentially taking Lying, Cheating, and Re-appropriations 101.
(3) While this might characterize the vast majority of PC templars, I doubt it's true for templars in general.
(4) Maybe. However, you can't include fights that occur as a part of training or in the course of performing their policing duties, unless they occur demonstrably more often, are more vicious, or unwarranted.
(5) Again, probably more a characteristic of PC templars than of templars in general.
(6) Definitely not something that's going to get you ahead in the templar world.
(7) As with (2), this couldn't be considered aberrant when it is effectively a social norm for the templar caste.

So overall, there are 3 aspects of ASPD that probably would benefit someone finding themselves in the templar caste, 2 that would be neutral or mildly disadvantageous, and 2 that probably would have lethal consequences.  I suppose you could cherry-pick the aspects of your disorder for your PC, but it's a bit of a stretch to say that because there exists a particularly advantageous subset of the numerous characteristics of the disorder, that the disorder itself would be, on the average, advantageous.

[John]

I want to throw out there that I do see characters like this from time to time.

Characters that don't care about anyone, anything but themselves are usually quite boring imho.

my favorite character was q noble that had everyone convinced he wanted to find a cure for y
His poor spice addled cousin. He had a very important aide looking into all sorts of cures. In reality he was keeping said cousin alive because in comparison it made my character look better. I then convinced a templar it was in his best nterest to kill my cousin once I had decided my cousin had outlived is usefulness.

Complete sociopath. But he had everyone fooled.

[Kevo]

I was gonna jump in here and say a lot, having quite a bit of IC and RL experience with mental illnesses, but Synthesis said just about everything I wanted to, and in an intelligible way that I am incapable of.

However, I feel that 'sociopathy' is a form of evolution, and that is why so many chars in Arm fall into that category. It's almost necessary for survival imho.

[Yam]

A sociopath would be that guy at the Gaj who gets in fights with everyone, can't create or maintain social relationships, and is generally impulsive and obnoxious. He spends all of his money on alcohol and then tries to steal some coins from a guy who promised him a lucrative job. He fucks himself over and nobody likes him.

Sociopathy is a debilitating mental illness. Zalanthans just have a different standards of morals and ethics.

[Dakota]

If you want to know what is a sociopath, watch Sexy Beast and Ben Kingsleys character, Don Logan (his favorite character he's ever played according to him). I keep wanting to make a guy like him in Arm.

[Kismetic]

A Zalanthan sociopath is a breed who somehow figured out how to get power.

[Dakota]

A Zalanthan sociopath is a breed who somehow figured out how to get power.

Yeah. A breed whose desire to be accepted forces himself to make others unhappy while trying to pull them into his path to happiness...

a la..

this (pretend Don Logan is a Tuluki breed who lit up a tube of spice in the Gaj and later speaking w/ some Milita or Templar) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7ymGLcbq8A&feature=related

and this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1WtefXSp7A&feature=related

srsly.. Don Logan / Ben Kingsley = most charismatic, best played sociopath I've ever seen.

[Rhyden]

This is definitely a difficult mindset to get into, although the Zalanthan sociopath could fit in quite well seeing as remorse and empathy are generally seen as weaknesses.

Someone with antisocial personality disorder has no conscience, which would be rather difficult to rp using the think/feel commands. They wouldn't feel like other people do. Their "feelings" would include irrational anger, chronic depression, and a want to "win" in all things that they can manipulate. They would be similar to a half-giant, in the fact that they would look for reactions and patterns in other people's expressions to copy. Their actions would be extremely instinctive and sporadic, making a long-term career very difficult to keep. Most of all, the sociopath would not care about anyone else but themself.

This would be an extremely challenging role, imo. Kudos to any players who can pull it off.

[My 2 sids]

This is definitely a difficult mindset to get into, although the Zalanthan sociopath could fit in quite well seeing as remorse and empathy are generally seen as weaknesses.

Not to pick on ya Rhyden (:hug:), but where are people picking up that Zalanthans feel neither remorse nor empathy for their actions?  Just because some standards differ from RL Western thought, that doesn't mean those emotions don't exist IG or that they shouldn't.

Okay, so maybe one has numbed to the point that they hardly pay attention to the weeping beggars on the street or the smell of decomposing bodies.  That doesn't mean seeing one's neighbor being carried off to the pile, leaving three hungry mouths at home, doesn't suddenly produce feelings of empathy or the sudden urge to adopt.

Hey, being a shite-cloak is a brutal life.  That doesn't mean one can't feel sorry for the new recruit that just got her first ass-chomping; or share a drink with a buddy who just lost his best kank friend.

So, after a bit of torture by a soldier you blamed that spice smell in the apartment hall on the guy across -- doesn't mean you don't feel badly for lying.


I guess my thought is this:
Zanantas operates often on a "fight or flight" level for day-to-day living, it's a "keep your mouth shut" way of life.   If we decide sociopaths are common (or even mostly accepted) we're saying that the people in Zan are incapable of or ignore social decency, which just isn't the case.

[Rhyden]

This is definitely a difficult mindset to get into, although the Zalanthan sociopath could fit in quite well seeing as remorse and empathy are generally seen as weaknesses.

Not to pick on ya Rhyden (:hug:), but where are people picking up that Zalanthans feel neither remorse nor empathy for their actions?  Just because some standards differ from RL Western thought, that doesn't mean those emotions don't exist IG or that they shouldn't.

Nobody is saying all Zalanthans don't feel remorse nor empathy. I said showing remorse and empathy are seen as "weak" in Zalanthas (especially in Allanak), thus giving the true sociopath a slight advantage.

[Heade]

A sociopath would be that guy at the Gaj who gets in fights with everyone, can't create or maintain social relationships, and is generally impulsive and obnoxious. He spends all of his money on alcohol and then tries to steal some coins from a guy who promised him a lucrative job. He fucks himself over and nobody likes him.

Sociopathy is a debilitating mental illness. Zalanthans just have a different standards of morals and ethics.

This isn't necessarily true. While a sociopath could, in theory, be an absolute moron as you described, it's unlikely to be the case. Quite the opposite, in fact. Many sociopaths also happen to be geniuses. There are many high functioning sociopaths in the real world. You likely know several of them. They are characterized primarily by not feeling empathy or remorse. This means, mostly, really really selfish.

This does not mean that they are ignorant of laws and/or punishments for breaking them. They normally do. A high functioning sociopath will still have a strong sense of self-preservation. This will typically keep said sociopath from deviating from social and legal norms except in situations where they know they will get away with it. In case you didn't understand that, punishments for murder can still deter a sociopath from committing murder, even if said sociopath has no moral issue with killing people. However, immediate concerns will always override legal deterrents. So if a sociopath is in a dangerous situation where killing or hurting someone will immediately increase his chances of making it out of said situation, he will do so without compunction.

Further, and a far more scary fact than many of you likely would like to know, is that many high functioning sociopaths are -MASTERS- of reading people. They have spent their entire lives having to study and associate looks, behaviors, and vocalizations with emotions, intentions, and overall frames of mind. They are often able to feign empathy with relative ease. They are also far more likely to be able to read your behavior than the average person.

As for sociopaths in real life society, they may manifest in several ways:

A used car salesman who routinely rips people off, selling them junk cars and lying about problems they have, all while sleeping like a baby each night - High Functioning Sociopath. He might never kill anyone, or break any laws whatsoever, because it's all about him, and he doesn't want to go to jail. However, ethical and moral issues such as honesty, that don't have legal punishments attached to violating them, he has no problem with disregarding. (Ex. Empathy for that person you just swindled out of their life savings)

A wall street broker who lies to people for years about profits and losses, lining his pockets and buying yachts with the retirement funds of thousands (Sound familiar, anyone?)

A congressman who uses his position to increase his own fame, wealth, and comfort at the cost of the health and well being of his constituents.

And yes, Dexter.

My point is this. There is no big red flag that pops up over the heads of sociopaths. They often exist and live relatively mundane lives in society without ever being identified as a sociopath. It's a mental condition that is not a result of any biological issue, or physical impairment of the brain. It's a mental condition that is likely the result of social upbringing and events occurring in the early development of the subject.

It could even be argued that sociopaths have an advantage over everyone else, in that they are not hampered or held back by unnecessary concern for others, beyond how those others are useful to them personally. If I believed that this condition had anything to do with genetics, I would agree that it would be plausible that sociopathy could conceivably proliferate simply due to the singular, driving force behind their existence. Above all else, I would describe sociopaths thusly: Survivors.

[Yam]

That's psychopathy not sociopathy/ASPD.


edit: Which isn't really a well defined thing. There are pretty well determined diagnostic criteria for ASPD which don't fit the examples you're using. Impulsiveness, irresponsibility aggressiveness, and the failure to plan ahead are some of the defining features of ASPD.

[DustMight]

Listen:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/436/the-psychopath-test

[My 2 sids]

Nobody is saying all Zalanthans don't feel remorse nor empathy. I said showing remorse and empathy are seen as "weak" in Zalanthas (especially in Allanak), thus giving the true sociopath a slight advantage.

In what way?

If we, as players/staff, take Zalanthas into an entire world of "sociopaths are the norm"/ any remorse or empathy is weak we wipe out HUGE amounts of this very colorful & dynamic world.   Art, culture, fellowship, storytelling, traditions, these things do exist in Zalanthas and actually separate it from other "hack and slash" worlds where what one PC does had absolutely no matter for the others in the game.  (After all, that is what it means to be a sociopath -- to live life as an island unto oneself)

Remember too Clan is not an OOC term.  Even in the cities, everyone (including humans) live a very "tribal" lifestyle.  Compassion, loyalty, emotion, and empathy is simply reserved for one's kin/ tribe/ house/ clan. 

[spicemustflow]

That's psychopathy not sociopathy/ASPD.

edit: Which isn't really a well defined thing. There are pretty well determined diagnostic criteria for ASPD which don't fit the examples you're using. Impulsiveness, irresponsibility aggressiveness, and the failure to plan ahead are some of the defining features of ASPD.

I don't think one has to tick every characteristic on DSM-IV list to qualify and even so, sociopaths are still individuals and can display various degrees of said character traits.

Also, I'm not at all clear about what's the difference between sociopathy and psychopathy. Some experts think that psychos are hard wired to be as unfeeling as possible, while ASPDs were fucked during formative years.

[Morrolan]

http://www.oftwominds.com/blogjun08/survival6-08.html

One thing that these GDB discussions on culture in Zalanthas often miss is that social skills are, by and large, the best survival skills that people have. Being able to befriend people is more powerful, and less work, than becoming the best warrior in the known world.

Most Machiavellian people are quickly recognized, and often marginalized or placed "out in front" to "draw fire" (whether socially or literally).

The way that Zalanthans are different is that they have, and are used to, extremely hierarchical relationships and stable social stratification. This means that a sociopathic leader will be able to maintain social position without being a particularly competent leader by the sheer dint of his or her social standing.

So, while playing a person with sociopathic traits may be a relaxing and fun^* way to spend one's day, it is often not a long-term survival strategy. This might explain why so many characters seem to last only a few RL weeks.

Morrolan

^* Most movie-heroes in action movies have sociopathic traits--they kill people and then go on with life as if it had not happened. We enjoy the fantasy that killing people doesn't mess us up. We talk as if it doesn't, or wouldn't, mess us up. That is part of the "macho" creed.

[Rhyden]

Nobody is saying all Zalanthans don't feel remorse nor empathy. I said showing remorse and empathy are seen as "weak" in Zalanthas (especially in Allanak), thus giving the true sociopath a slight advantage.

In what way?

Murder, Corruption, Betrayal.

I'm not saying sociopathy is the norm. I'm not saying all Zalanthans are sociopaths. I'm saying a sociopath might have a slight advantage in Zalanthas. The sociopath doesn't have that annoying thing called a conscience nagging at them when they're rising through the ranks of whatever profession they are pursuing. This is not to say that empaths are equally as valuable in Zalanthas, but in many cutthroat professions involving murder, corruption, and betrayal, a sociopath would surely have an upper hand.

edited to add: Great post Heade, good stuff.

[Dalmeth]

Murder, Corruption, Betrayal.

I'm not saying sociopathy is the norm. I'm not saying all Zalanthans are sociopaths. I'm saying a sociopath might have a slight advantage in Zalanthas. The sociopath doesn't have that annoying thing called a conscience nagging at them when they're rising through the ranks of whatever profession they are pursuing. This is not to say that empaths are equally as valuable in Zalanthas, but in many cutthroat professions involving murder, corruption, and betrayal, a sociopath would surely have an upper hand.

edited to add: Great post Heade, good stuff.

The reality is quite the opposite.  Sociopaths exist by taking advantage of a stable social system.  This is seen as a negative because it tends to degrade the social system that they rely on.  In essence, sociopaths are only capable of taking and using what they take to take more.  They are unproductive.

Take a close look at Synthesis's post.  The traits mentioned are those of a rabid dependent.  In a harsh environment, the sociopaths are the first to go.

[Rhyden]

Murder, Corruption, Betrayal.

I'm not saying sociopathy is the norm. I'm not saying all Zalanthans are sociopaths. I'm saying a sociopath might have a slight advantage in Zalanthas. The sociopath doesn't have that annoying thing called a conscience nagging at them when they're rising through the ranks of whatever profession they are pursuing. This is not to say that empaths are equally as valuable in Zalanthas, but in many cutthroat professions involving murder, corruption, and betrayal, a sociopath would surely have an upper hand.

edited to add: Great post Heade, good stuff.

The reality is quite the opposite.  Sociopaths exist by taking advantage of a stable social system.  This is seen as a negative because it tends to degrade the social system that they rely on.  In essence, sociopaths are only capable of taking and using what they take to take more.  They are unproductive.

Take a close look at Synthesis's post.  The traits mentioned are those of a rabid dependent.  In a harsh environment, the sociopaths are the first to go.

To say sociopaths are unproductive is a broad generalization. Not all people with anti-personality disorder are the same. There are varying degrees of the personality disorder as well. There are many productive sociopaths in the real world, and I believe there could be in Zalanthas too.

Do you believe a cutthroat assassin who is a sociopath wouldn't have an advantage over a cutthroat assassin who is an empath? What about the ruthless mercenary? Or the greedy businessman? The power-craving Templar?

Zalanthas society still have laws and rules that a sociopath can live and abide by. My point is that there are several professions in Allanak, Tuluk, and elsewhere, where a sociopath could potentially thrive, despite having disorders listed with classes DSM-IV or ICD-10.

[Recharge]

Have a good family friend diagnosed as a sociopath, could have never suspected something was wrong with him. Nicest man I've ever met. Always helpful, was very productive around my moms house (which needed a lotta work). Never caused any trouble with anyone in the neighbourhood during his stay. Mom told me later he had some plans involving some serious drugs at the time, which he never got around to producing cause of things that came up.

Now I believe a sociopath would have at least, somewhat of an advantage in Zalanthas. The ability to read people and mimic emotion (from what Ive seen from my example) seems as if they could at least attain some level greater then the average Zalanthan. No not every commoner could even be one, or anything even close to being one. But Ive no idea how to finish my statement..

[Marauder Moe]

Maybe this is a silly question, but... why the heck does it matter whether or not sociopathy/psychopathy is advantageous or disadvantageous in Zalanthan society?

[My 2 sids]

Maybe this is a silly question, but... why the heck does it matter whether or not sociopathy/psychopathy is advantageous or disadvantageous in Zalanthan society?

Because if it is acceptable it gives players a free license to have their PCs act w/o any moral or societal compass in the game.

[Rhyden]

Maybe this is a silly question, but... why the heck does it matter whether or not sociopathy/psychopathy is advantageous or disadvantageous in Zalanthan society?

Because if it is acceptable it gives players a free license to have their PCs act w/o any moral or societal compass in the game.

Are you saying there shouldn't be any sociopaths ig because it would allow players to powergame and pkill?

I believe it is possible to role-play a well-developed sociopath character in Zalanthas without going into these extremes. You would have to use your think & feels strategically in order to portray the absense of conscience, but like I said in my first post, it would be very challenging.

Also, remember, that anti-personality disorder is a disorder. It is still a flaw. Yes, I said it would give such characters a slight advantage in some scenarios, but there would also inevitably be huge disadvantages too (the traits are outlined in Synth's post).

[Marauder Moe]

Maybe this is a silly question, but... why the heck does it matter whether or not sociopathy/psychopathy is advantageous or disadvantageous in Zalanthan society?

Because if it is acceptable it gives players a free license to have their PCs act w/o any moral or societal compass in the game.

Well I didn't say "acceptable"... but I don't think acceptability is a factor in determining whether or not a particular character trait is OOCly allowed either.  In Zalanthan society it's unacceptable to have sex with members not of your own species.  It is not, however, against the game rules.

Likewise, I'm not entirely sure what's inherently wrong with playing a character who lacks a moral compass.

I think it all boils down to roleplaying well (realistically and consistently) is good, roleplaying poorly is bad.