Sociopath

[Faustin]

I was thinking perhaps for my next character that I will make him/her have some sociopathic qualities so, I was wonder if people can help me come up with traits my character might have? I know the general details like, no remorse, guilty etc. or pathological lying,  and authoritarian but I would like if some players help me conjure up ideas and attitudes towards actions of other players etc. for my character, would be much obliged.

[manipura]

I had a character along the same lines as you are thinking.

I researched the personalities in question for about 3 or 4 weeks before applying.

[wizturbo]

This is a very difficult role to play - I'd seriously spend some time exploring the real implications of making this kind of PC...  I tried making one recently and stored it, because I started to get depressed IRL trying to get into the mindset of the character.

[manipura]

This is a very difficult role to play - I'd seriously spend some time exploring the real implications of making this kind of PC...  I tried making one recently and stored it, because I started to get depressed IRL trying to get into the mindset of the character.

I would agree whole-heartedly with this...

[Faustin]

your probably right, I will probably still make him but not as my next character, I will wait for a much later time like a couple months, I was just  kind of making a brainstorming thing, it still seems pretty interesting role to play though, if I do play it I going to get a book about the illness so I can play him realistic, I view this role as  and could be very "fun" to play as, but I could be wrong.

This is a very difficult role to play - I'd seriously spend some time exploring the real implications of making this kind of PC...  I tried making one recently and stored it, because I started to get depressed IRL trying to get into the mindset of the character.

[HavokBlue]

In another MUD a few months back, I had to create and run a PC-driven cult from the ground up. I researched IRL cults, particularly the cult of Ayn Rand, and modeled it off that. It seemed to work well, so maybe try doing a lot of background research on IRL sociopaths.

[Zoltan]

I think that based on the IC and game culture, a true sociopath would be difficult to play if they weren't already powerful codedly and/or ICly. That is, a sociopath being a blatant sociopath. Just speaking personally, I would likely find it difficult and ultimately unenjoyable, but if people have the will and the skill to pull off such things, I'm all for it.

But mostly I posted to compliment Faustin's avatar. Up the irons!

[Is Friday]

I played a rapist a while back. It was pretty awesome, excepting the raping part. For the most part he sucked--shitty stats, shitty skills. But he talked such an awesome game that people were frightened of him from the get-go.

It worked until someone hired a maxed ranger to assassinate him.

[Potaje]

I always thought the best sociopaths were those that new how to charm and impress, create a likable trait or quality that would luir their victims in, while creating a "could never be them" aura around them.

Really plan out the murders or what have you, be artistic in the development and approach perhaps setting up some kind of mapping that through repeated acts would offer clues to those investigating.

Also could be cool to allow one person, some one others might not believe, or would not say anything from shear disbelief or fear, have a taste or glimpse of the monster you truly are.

Such as the mute beggar child.

[Scarecrow]

I played a really evil character once, who butchered people, dismembered them and ate their bodies. He seemed very normal, pleasant even and had lots of close friends, even a lover. He was never discovered for his true monstrous self, and ended up dying a very undramatic, silly and pointless death in a place where his corpse wasn't even found.
Still one of my favourite characters though. On the same hand, still feel a little guilty thinking about all those poor PC's my PC lured to their deaths. They were tasty though...... 

[Sam]

Playing a sociopath is very easy in Armageddon.

RPing a sociopath that is eventually found out as a sociopath is different.
If you watch Dexter, he has a different mask for each occasion. Most of the time, those 'masks' -show most- of the emotions. Some of the time, he has the wrong mask. To play a sociopath you would have to try and be a normal person (if you cared to be), but to be a sociopath, you would obviously have to fail at being able to emote different emotions that you wouldn't see very often.

If I would play a sociopath, I would pick a handful of emotions and switch them. Is something very awful going on? You may show you are being nonchalant. Is something happening that your PC has waited a long time for? Make sure a PC around you knows that if they emss it up, they will regret it. (Even if that PC has no way of changing the events.)

If you have ever acted, you know that crying/being heartbroken takes a lot of work. To look the part needs a lot of practice. A sociopath wouldn't be practicing, so they may take breaks during the display of emotion. They might look nonchalant, or they may pick another emotion to show.

Emote, emote, emote.

[boog]

This is a very difficult role to play - I'd seriously spend some time exploring the real implications of making this kind of PC...  I tried making one recently and stored it, because I started to get depressed IRL trying to get into the mindset of the character.

Yeah, mani and wiz have it right. Especially if you're a character actor. ...Is that the right one? I forget. After skimming the wiki article, I don't think it is, but I'll look when I get home. (Or ask my someone who knows better :<) Anyway: If you get into your character like a lot of us do and see them as a different entity you're channeling, I'm not sure if playing a sociopath is the best bet. It could be really, very rewarding, but be sure it doesn't take a toll on you IRL. :]

[hyzhenhok]

Honestly, I don't think it's as difficult as some of you are making it out to be. Here's the diagnosis list for antisocial personality disorder from the DSM IV:\

- failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
- deceitfulness, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
- impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;
- irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
- reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
- consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
- lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another;
- promiscuity;
- having shallow or seemingly nonexistent feelings.

A lot of these things are commonplace in Zalanthas. It should be very easy for a sociopath to blend in. I'm not even sure it would be considered abnormal; certainly wouldn't be considered a mental illness.

I don't see anywhere in the DMS where all sociopaths have to pretend to have emotions. Simply choose a few emotions like sadness, love, etc that your sociopath never has and just never have them. Ever. Frankly, in Zalanthas you really wouldn't really have to pretend to have them in order to blend in with society. That's an aspect or IRL antisocials that doesn't translate; the whole point of antisocials is that they behave against the grain of society; you transplant an RL antisocial to Zalanthas and suddenly he's not really going against the grain. Especially if he's an elf.

[spicemustflow]

Sociopath doesn't have to butcher or eat people, or rape. Plenty of people irl are sociopaths and they don't do anything of the sort. Anyway, most of the PCs in our game would qualify for the diagnosis if they were examined by a psychiatrist from earth. Harsh world brings out the worst in people or maybe only characters who, to some extent, lack compassion and consideration for others rise from the sea of VNPCS to become PCs.

Anyway, the easiest way to play a sociopath is to be an elf.

[evil_erdlu]

My take? Play a normal citizen.. To be alive in most of the places in Zalanthas, one must be a true sociopath..

I received a lot of kudos for my sociopaths, so I believe I can offer a couple advices.

- A scar across the eye? Gleaming gaze? The shadowy person who barely talks? One that tells everyone how he can waste them like a third-grade rapper?
... Of course there's a possibility of playing them right. But I've not seen it. Cliches are boring. My most successful sociopath was Simon, a chubby 'rinthi human. I remember the approving imm's message, mentioning maybe Simon should have been a merchant because he totally looked like one. Noone suspected Simon of even being capable of fighting despite his clear 'rinthi accent. He always looked like a smiling, cheerful peddler. But he was an obnoxious drunkard and just to get a bit more booze, he would easily cut down his best friend.

- A loose tongue? No no no.. If you feel forced to talk big to intimidate, you're doing it wrong because it's not a sociopath's business to intimidate. Someone that has seen you in the act would already be scared shitless. Seeing that mellow friend suddenly extracting livers without the tiniest bit of emotion in his face is scary enough. But it must be normal for your character. Nothing extraordinary to talk about. And talking asks for more work if the talk goes to law enforcement and you don't like extra work, do you?

Say, when a normal person is hungry, he goes to the kitchen, prepares him a meal and eats. When a sociopath needs money, he cuts up the next person because that next person has money and he needs some. There's nothing wrong with that for the sociopath, just like there's nothing wrong with preparing a meal. So, why talk about it?

- Strangely, a sociopath doesn't need to be 'crazy'. You don't need strange quirks, gruesome habits or nervous breakdowns. You simply cannot really bring yourself to recognizing other people's rights. The crazy route often draws attention.

Just read the wikipedia entry then plan a character for longer fun, one who will still show symptoms but a bit less visibly.

[Marshmellow]

Sociopath doesn't even have to hurt people, let alone kill people.  Plenty of sociopaths in real life lead fairly normal lives, just lives tainted by their somewhat flattened sense of emotions and disregard for society's norms.

Okay, continuing, first, the disorder is properly called Antisocial Personality Disorder.  You might want to take a good read through that wiki and go looking at its sources to find some good information.

[jriley]

Sociopath doesn't even have to hurt people, let alone kill people.  Plenty of sociopaths in real life lead fairly normal lives, just lives tainted by their somewhat flattened sense of emotions and disregard for society's norms.

Okay, continuing, first, the disorder is properly called Antisocial Personality Disorder.  You might want to take a good read through that wiki and go looking at its sources to find some good information.

Yeah.  This is good advice.

Okay, so you want to play a sociopath?  I think the main thing to remember is that your character doesn't have what most of us would recognize as emotions.  It's the lack of empathy that might be difficult for you to role play.  Your face is a mask.  You're smiling if others smile.  You're weeping if others cry.  But internally you feel nothing, or rather you feel only greed, anxiety, lust and pride.

The other misunderstanding that might be easy for you to miss is that sociopaths never forgive anything.  Even the slightest offense or slight against them must be punished, even if it takes years.  Sociopaths are always keeping score.  Everything is about them. 

So yeah, it's cool to play a misanthropic sociopath if you want.  These are cool.  But maybe consider playing a kind-hearted sociopath of one variety or another.  Maybe someone who means well, but is really really creepy. 

Be manipulative.  Take yourself way too seriously.  Don't let anyone get the better of you.

And you feel nothing.  Not a thing. 

[Barzalene]

This is a very difficult role to play - I'd seriously spend some time exploring the real implications of making this kind of PC...  I tried making one recently and stored it, because I started to get depressed IRL trying to get into the mindset of the character.

Yeah, mani and wiz have it right. Especially if you're a character actor. ...Is that the right one? I forget. After skimming the wiki article, I don't think it is, but I'll look when I get home. (Or ask my someone who knows better :<) Anyway: If you get into your character like a lot of us do and see them as a different entity you're channeling, I'm not sure if playing a sociopath is the best bet. It could be really, very rewarding, but be sure it doesn't take a toll on you IRL. :]

Method actor.

[Barzalene]

Honestly, I don't think it's as difficult as some of you are making it out to be. Here's the diagnosis list for antisocial personality disorder from the DSM IV:\

- failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
- deceitfulness, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
- impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;
- irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
- reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
- consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
- lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another;
- promiscuity;
- having shallow or seemingly nonexistent feelings.

Oh my goodness! There are some in game already!

[hyzhenhok]

If you want to flesh out your concept beyond simply "sociopath," take a look at the Millon subtypes and pick one:

covetous antisocial - variant of the pure pattern where individuals feel that life has not given them their due.
reputation-defending antisocial - including narcissistic features
risk-taking antisocial - including histrionic features
nomadic antisocial - including schizoid, avoidant features
malevolent antisocial - including sadistic, paranoid features.

[Sam]

It is easy to be a sociopath IG. Noone shows emotions all the time.

It is just hard showing that you are not having emotions, or subtly piggy backing on other's emotions.

[Kronus]

On Zalanthas, persons who show compassion, empathy and put the needs of society above their own are the antisocial monsters.


Preserver scum.   

[Faustin]

wow thanks these really are some great ideas, I'm still sticking with that  maybe after a little while I will start making a sociopath, I was think more of a power-tripping, two-faced, paranoid and manipulative and of course, narcissistic. These traits that everyone gave me really help a lot, no I'm pretty sure I can handle be a sociopath as long as I don't rush into playing this role straight away, I will like probably get depressed IRL like Wiz did but, I really find that playing this role I will never get bored even if I'm around anyone.

[boog]

This is a very difficult role to play - I'd seriously spend some time exploring the real implications of making this kind of PC...  I tried making one recently and stored it, because I started to get depressed IRL trying to get into the mindset of the character.

Yeah, mani and wiz have it right. Especially if you're a character actor. ...Is that the right one? I forget. After skimming the wiki article, I don't think it is, but I'll look when I get home. (Or ask my someone who knows better :<) Anyway: If you get into your character like a lot of us do and see them as a different entity you're channeling, I'm not sure if playing a sociopath is the best bet. It could be really, very rewarding, but be sure it doesn't take a toll on you IRL. :]

Method actor.

Thanks, boo.

[Synthesis]

Ha, according to the signs and symptoms of ASPD on Wikipedia, everyone in Allanak has ASPD:

1. Persistent lying or stealing -- That covers all the elves right there (40% of the population).

2. Apparent lack of remorse or empathy for others -- There's  giant pile of corpses in the largest public square, and feeding people to beasts in the Arena is the city's favorite pastime.

3. Cruelty to animals -- That covers all your rangers and warriors...and assassins who backstab rats.

4. Promiscuity -- That covers all your mudsexers.

5.  Inability to tolerate boredom -- Hence the average sub-5-day lifespan.

6.  Disregard for right and wrong -- Right's only a direction.

7.  Irresponsible work behavior -- How many PCs just can't follow their clan schedule?

8. Disregard for safety -- See #7, above.  This also covers all your 'indie' PCs.

[Jingo]

I want to throw out there that I do see characters like this from time to time.

Characters that don't care about anyone, anything but themselves are usually quite boring imho.

[Sokotra]

I want to throw out there that I do see characters like this from time to time.

Characters that don't care about anyone, anything but themselves are usually quite boring imho.

In real life I come across people from time to time that don't seem like they care about anyone or anything but themselves... you get to know them or delve a little deeper (or a lot deeper in some cases) and you end up finding out that a lot of what you think is actually the complete opposite.  Sometimes those deeper issues manifest themselves to seem like the person doesn't care about anything, but that is mostly not the case at all.  Think about an example where the person is someone who has taken a hostage in a violent situation and imagine the difficulty and complications that arise when a negotiator tries to talk that person down.  Sometimes even "sociopathic" people aren't really sociopaths. 

[Synthesis]

I want to throw out there that I do see characters like this from time to time.

Characters that don't care about anyone, anything but themselves are usually quite boring imho.

Someone with ASPD doesn't necessarily not care about anything but themselves.  You could still be paranoid, borderline, histrionic, or even schizoid, schizotypal, or obsessive-compulsive.  Even someone with ASPD and narcissistic personality disorder would at least interact with people, if only to prove how awesome they were.

For example someone with ASPD+borderline may form brief, intense relationships with other people, come to depend on them completely, then murder them when they fail to live up to expectations.  Someone with ASPD+schizotypal/paranoid may believe that everyone in the city is a mindbender and is extracting or implanting thoughts to control his or her behavior.  Histrionics would do things like pick fights and then be excessively cruel (although it's hard to imagine what this might be, with respect to Allanaki standards) to the loser, or exact disproportionate revenge if someone manages to humiliate him publicly.  ASPD+schizoid would probably be the only really reclusive type, simply because that's essentially the definition of schizoid personality disorder in the first place...although really, it's difficult to imagine how those two would overlap...probably something like a rogue magicker/tinker who becomes extremely violent when faced with very painful rejection/humiliation/embarrassment or a forced change in routine.

[Marshmellow]

ASPD people do care about things/events.  They don't care about people.  Someone that truly cares about nothing would be boring indeed, but when an ASPD character is done well, the character should be just as engaging as any other character.

[DustMight]

I would caution against playing anyone with a mental illness until one can play a "normal" person of that particular race convincingly.  Mental illness, in my opinion, is pretty uninteresting as it removes a lot of choice from the character.  Much better to play a normal person who is deeply conflicted in their loyalties, ethics, or interests.  This to me, is why Muls and half-elves rock so hard, though those personality traits can be found in any race or class.

No need to venture into mental illness.

If you want to do it because you want to play a killer, just play a killer and be done with it.  Nothing wrong with that!

[Faustin]

Well from my view, I think that playing this role does take away choices but I also provides many new choices for  instance, decisions and attitudes towards different races and views on the Templarate, nobles, their level of piousness etc. I am not looking to play a crazed killer, I would like to play someone on with ASPD DustMight, I think Marshmellow stated it perfectly that sociopaths are not necessarily murderous beasts rather, someone who has little to no emotion, severely narcissistic, and has a mind for personal gain only. Oddly enough, I am finding many are confusing a sociopath with a psychopath.

Sociopath doesn't even have to hurt people, let alone kill people.  Plenty of sociopaths in real life lead fairly normal lives, just lives tainted by their somewhat flattened sense of emotions and disregard for society's norms.

[Sam]

The only challenge I see would be to show that disconnect.

You don't want to keep emoting:
So-And-So the almighty shows no emotion. The field around them littered with the corpses of the innocent.

So, if your PC wanted to blend in with an emotional group of people. You would need to show how you are trying to have emotions, but you are just awkward about showing it.

[Anaiah]

The true irony of this is that the 'feel' command is the perfect place to show that disconnect and truly get into the flesh of your sociopath.

[Marauder Moe]

Watch Dexter before making this character.  The first 2 seasons at least are on Netflix streaming.

[valeria]

The true irony of this is that the 'feel' command is the perfect place to show that disconnect and truly get into the flesh of your sociopath.

Love it.

[Scarecrow]

I also wouldn't play more than one psychopath, as it was more a novel experience. I also have a severe dislike for PKing after playing that sociopath, so would find the role hard to get satisfaction from again. I prefer more normalish characters with a touch of oddness, but still okay folks at heart.
Also yeah, Dexter is a good source for inspiration. Love that show.

[Clavis]

Most of the crazy people I worked around seeemed completely normal average people. Then in the blink of an eye well it got ugly. None went by the book or even acted the way you think they would. Small quirks gave away what they felt, and those you had to actually be looking for.

Most of the time the same thing didn't even set them off, though only a select few triggers would set them off all the time. Very few. A certain smell, sound, food, something to drink, a song, anothers action.

Oh and if you can watch one flew over the Coco's nest. Great portraying of different mental illnesses.

[Kronus]

This morning I'm really thinking about how likely it is that mental illness in the DSM-IV sense would have survived on Zalanthas.  We're talking about a planet where anything without psychic powers went extinct a long, long time ago, which seems to suggest that brains are highly developed and incredibly 'tough' compared to modern-day Earth.    Mental illnesses like ASPD (anti-social personality disorder - aka sociopathy and psychopathy) seem to be present from birth (and presumably before even that), so it's more plausible than others which are environmentally induced.  I can't, for instance, see someone's brain snapping under stress and making them (permanently) insane.  Zalanthan brains, like their bodies, are just too hardened for that.

The argument can also be made that sociopathy - and even moreso psychopathy - is an evolutionary adaptation to an environment where one's own society is the greatest threat to their survival.  In that case it would be common enough on Zalanthas to hardly even be worth mention, much less be considered aberrant.

[Synthesis]

The argument can also be made that sociopathy - and even moreso psychopathy - is an evolutionary adaptation to an environment where one's own society is the greatest threat to their survival.  In that case it would be common enough on Zalanthas to hardly even be worth mention, much less be considered aberrant.

Actually, I seriously doubt you could put together a cogent argument for that, because it's patently absurd.  First of all, you seem to be implicitly assuming some sort of teleological quality in the process of evolution that simply isn't present.  Second, if a particular society's norms are fitness-reducing, the only way you could make a case that biological evolution would get involved is if you hypothesized a particular set of genes that produced a phenotype that reliably leads to those norms.  Even if you could do that (and I'm sure it could probably be done...for example, genes involved in problem solving, empathy, attachment, anger, etc.), it's hard to imagine how a significant sociopathy could ever result in increased fitness.  Everything about human existence is incredibly dependent on sociality.  We birth offspring that must as a biological necessity be raised by another human for quite a long time.  Our cognitive development is immensely dependent on social interaction.  Our individual survival is dependent on social interaction, because we don't possess instincts that reliably allow us to navigate a complex environment, and individually we'd be virtually defenseless without the trappings of society, particularly with respect to the use of tools, but also simply in the fact that a band of hairless hooting monkeys is much more intimidating than a single hairless hooting monkey.  Given these constraints, truly genetic sociopathy could only be adaptive or neutral if a) the age of onset were beyond or during the later stages of the reproductive years b) the sociopathy is so mild that it doesn't affect child-rearing and other group-oriented behavior (at which point you have to stop and question where it's really a "sociopathic" phenotype), c) if the alternate phenotype is really so awful that it's resulting in frank extinction (and this would require a substantial shift in environment, otherwise how would it have expanded to become the dominant phenotype in the first place?), or d) if there existed some alternate genotype/phenotype that offset the child-rearing and sociality problems, effectively allowing the sociopathic genotype/phenotype to persist somewhat parasitically (or symbiotically).  At this point, you haven't argued that the original society's norms are maladaptive, you've argued that there is a distinct phenotype that has found a socio-ecological niche that is likely to be self-limiting as far as expansion of the underlying genotype is concerned.  Finally, if a particular set of norms were substantially maladaptive, it's far more likely that natural selection would occur on a memetic, not a genetic basis, because the rate of changes in memes themselves, and in their population distribution is immeasurably faster. 

That being said, if you define "psychopathy" in terms of memotypes, a quasi-teleological argument could hold, as a meme can be generated by human intent, aimed at a particular goal.  The process of natural selection of such a meme could look remarkably like a teleological process if a substantial portion of the population recognizes a common problem and the meme provides a solution.  For example someone might recognize that "being nice to elves" is leading to elves taking over the city, so they develop the meme "not nice to elves."  "Nice to elves" memotypes could then label "not nice to elves" memotypes as "sociopathic."  However, this is a substantially weaker version of what I think the original argument implies, as it's both a very special case of natural selection and a very limited use of the term sociopathy.

If you're going down the "evolution and mental illness route," you'd be better served by arguing that

1. Genes that ultimately result in what is now considered to be mental illness were once adaptive when humans or their ancestors lived in a different social and natural environment.

2. Or said genes don't decrease fitness so substantially that it's possible to eliminate them from the population. (This also includes the host-parasite relationship I described above.)

3. Or mental illnesses are multifactorial in such a way that individual genes substantially increase fitness when present in certain combinations, and produce mental illness in other combinations.  That is, that there are allelic and zygosity-dependent advantages and disadvantages.

[Kronus]

The argument can also be made that sociopathy - and even moreso psychopathy - is an evolutionary adaptation to an environment where one's own society is the greatest threat to their survival.  In that case it would be common enough on Zalanthas to hardly even be worth mention, much less be considered aberrant.

Actually, I seriously doubt you could put together a cogent argument for that, because it's patently absurd. 

It's patently absurd in reality.  In science-fiction/fantasy, it's an entertaining conceit.   Social predators, vampires, the Terminator, whatever; it's always scarier when the monster looks just like you.    I'm a little surprised you didn't say anything about my primary notion, that the minds of Zalanthas' sentient denizens are more developed, more rugged and less prone to "breaking".

Your argument that humans (and by extension, demi-humans) are socially dependent creatures is very true, and actually supports my opinion that mental illness really wouldn't exist in the way that we know it here on Earth.  Our modern society tries to cure, rehabilitate, medicate and normalize aberrant and dangerous behaviour, and many sociopaths actually rely on this and manipulate it to their advantage.  On Zalanthas it could be largely self-correcting where even if the individual doesn't get themselves killed, someone else will gladly do it for them, not ask them to talk about their feelings.  Societies on Zalanthas simply do not have the resources to willingly support individuals who do not contribute to the society, so the only successful (i.e., surviving long enough to reproduce) sociopaths will be the ones who have everyone fooled and manipulated.

Another odd notion:
Mindbenders are universally hated and persecuted for their ability (and willingness) to manipulate others' thoughts and emotions -- maybe they're the extreme example of what sociopathy + psionics results in.  It's not unreasonable to assume that there are examples in Zalanthas' history where a truly gifted sociopath was falsely accused - with plenty of seemingly plausible evidence - of being a mindbender and slaughtered, despite having no psionic powers beyond the norm.

Good discussion.

[Kismetic]

The true irony of this is that the 'feel' command is the perfect place to show that disconnect and truly get into the flesh of your sociopath.

Most excellent and true!

The argument can also be made that sociopathy - and even moreso psychopathy - is an evolutionary adaptation to an environment where one's own society is the greatest threat to their survival.  In that case it would be common enough on Zalanthas to hardly even be worth mention, much less be considered aberrant.

Actually, I seriously doubt you could put together a cogent argument for that, because it's patently absurd.  ...

tl;dr;waiting for the annotated

I somehow doubt sociopaths are as rare on Zalanthas as they are on Earth (if indeed they are even that rare on Earth).  Your average Zalanthan likely would have endured some sort of trauma in their early development that would lead to at least bearing some of these symptoms.  I don't think it has to do with evolution, per se ...   but I do agree that it would be seen as less aberrant.

That said, a lot of behavior of sociopaths that we understand as bad would likely be less relevant on Zalanthas, yes?

[Cindy42]

hehe, i had an insane character once. not a medical sociopath, but insane, in a way that dealt more with her emotional well-being and confusing her memories with the present day than it did with the psychological aspect. that should have made sense to me.

she didn't last long; unfortunately i didn't think her all the way through and i wouldn't break character to aid her long-term survival, so she did something expected of her and died.

insanity is interesting, and i know you're probably thinking this well out if you're not making this character five minutes from the time you first thought of the idea like i do, but please, for the sake of art, don't allow their personality to hinder their survival. it sucks making an inspiring person--- and then watching them do something stupid and die.

[Cindy42]

your probably right, I will probably still make him but not as my next character, I will wait for a much later time like a couple months, I was just  kind of making a brainstorming thing, it still seems pretty interesting role to play though, if I do play it I going to get a book about the illness so I can play him realistic, I view this role as  and could be very "fun" to play as, but I could be wrong.

This is a very difficult role to play - I'd seriously spend some time exploring the real implications of making this kind of PC...  I tried making one recently and stored it, because I started to get depressed IRL trying to get into the mindset of the character.

oh, actually, yeah, the girl i was playing--- completely out of her f$&%ing mind, nervous and anxious all the time--- it got annoying after a while. its a tough play. and she wasn't a sociopath, she could care about others, which i'm guessing might add another level of complexity to you character.

heck, its not boring, tho


EDIT: umm, and you might want a backup plan, such as--- dynamic character change! people sometimes change over time. i'm testing that theory out with my own character right now. she is slowly changing into something that she knows should scare her and no longer does. could a sociopath change tho? because yes, your options are limited, but aren't they always? the insane will always intrigue me, and (should i write this) a recent conversation in the Gaj between me and several others implies that the recent flood in tuluk and fire-thing (didn't hear enough about it to know what it is) could have been a factor in the recent increase of insane and unstable people, or people doing insane and unstable things. i'm sorry for saying something obvious just now, for those of you who are up to date about allanak.

i think i recently saw an insane PC with a scar like the Joker's. am i allowed to say that? that was AWESOME.

[Fredd]

The primary symptom of this mental illness is very simple.

Sociopaths cannot feel empathy. They usualy dont feel many other emotions, but it's defined by lack of empathy.

This does not mean you will go around killing everything. It means essentially, emptions are muted and you dont understand them. There is alot of wiggle room for sociopath pc's.

not every sociopath is Dexter. Not every Sociopaths murder animals. it is common for such things to happen, but there are many successfull sociopaths. (they can crush there competitors without remorse, afterall)

[Cindy42]

you might be thinking masochists.

sadomasochists?

try looking up violent forms of insanity, and something more fitting than anyone's mentioned here might pop up.

i honestly have to agree with the idea that an oppressive society creates crazy people. its just not healthy to live in, say, north korea, whose horror scenarios are more than enough to create twisted people. asylums, full of the insane in order to contain them from society, are said to not help or make a patient worse.

i think an insane character is more believable in places like Allanak and other harsh social environments. oh my god the rinth. and tuluk's subtlety could go a long way in making someone snap. in that case your aggression/manipulative nature might be directing more towards the oppressors, since (i think) the commoner society would be a bit less at fault for your mental and emotional degradation.

or be born crazy. or a combo.

EDIT: if you want to be technical, there are two requirements to be a sociopath: to not feel emotions correctly and to be unable to learn from past mistakes.

yeah but that was wikipedia; reliable wikipedia, worked on only by phDs in the field, of course.

[Synthesis]

The true irony of this is that the 'feel' command is the perfect place to show that disconnect and truly get into the flesh of your sociopath.

Most excellent and true!

The argument can also be made that sociopathy - and even moreso psychopathy - is an evolutionary adaptation to an environment where one's own society is the greatest threat to their survival.  In that case it would be common enough on Zalanthas to hardly even be worth mention, much less be considered aberrant.

Actually, I seriously doubt you could put together a cogent argument for that, because it's patently absurd.  ...

tl;dr;waiting for the annotated

I somehow doubt sociopaths are as rare on Zalanthas as they are on Earth (if indeed they are even that rare on Earth).  Your average Zalanthan likely would have endured some sort of trauma in their early development that would lead to at least bearing some of these symptoms.  I don't think it has to do with evolution, per se ...   but I do agree that it would be seen as less aberrant.

That said, a lot of behavior of sociopaths that we understand as bad would likely be less relevant on Zalanthas, yes?

I was specifically commenting on the idea that the behavior in question could be an adaptive mechanism and be selected for.  I'm sure there are plenty of crazies on Zalanthas--that doesn't necessarily (or even probably) mean that it's a positive adaptation. 

I would probably argue that the vast majority of these have more to do with environmental influences than genotype, although there you start to get into somewhat murky philosophical territory regarding specific genotypes that may or may not be particularly adaptive in certain very limited socioeconomic niches.  My previous argument still holds on the level of the general population, however.

As far as how such persons are treated by the local populace, I would tend to take a somewhat harsher approach, given the scarcity of resources on Zalanthas.  When you're always only one waterskin away from dying, I suspect you'd be slightly more attuned to behaviors that deviate from reciprocity, and far less willing to allow them to continue unchecked.

[My 2 sids]

If I would play a sociopath, I would pick a handful of emotions and switch them. Is something very awful going on? You may show you are being nonchalant. Is something happening that your PC has waited a long time for? Make sure a PC around you knows that if they emss it up, they will regret it. (Even if that PC has no way of changing the events.)
Emote, emote, emote.

This. 

Remember anti-social behavior isn't well tolerated in game -- everyone from Templars to beggars to 2-sid Breed whores have expected roles to fill in society.  A non-conformist has to at least appear to be a conformist, which can be difficult for a person who doesn't understand all these un-spoken social norms and emotions.  So what do they do?  They act! 

This isn't a spy or Neck trying to pull a fast one... this is someone who has to consciously figure out what is that look pasted on the faces of people when a Templar steps into a room?  Why are all the people in the unit smiling when someone raises a mug for a toast?  Yeah, what was said:  pick out just a handful of rehearsed, basic emotions and stick with them. 

[Fredd]

you might be thinking masochists.

sadomasochists?

try looking up violent forms of insanity, and something more fitting than anyone's mentioned here might pop up.

i honestly have to agree with the idea that an oppressive society creates crazy people. its just not healthy to live in, say, north korea, whose horror scenarios are more than enough to create twisted people. asylums, full of the insane in order to contain them from society, are said to not help or make a patient worse.

i think an insane character is more believable in places like Allanak and other harsh social environments. oh my god the rinth. and tuluk's subtlety could go a long way in making someone snap. in that case your aggression/manipulative nature might be directing more towards the oppressors, since (i think) the commoner society would be a bit less at fault for your mental and emotional degradation.

or be born crazy. or a combo.

EDIT: if you want to be technical, there are two requirements to be a sociopath: to not feel emotions correctly and to be unable to learn from past mistakes.

yeah but that was wikipedia; reliable wikipedia, worked on only by phDs in the field, of course.

Sadist is someone who gets sexual pleasure from others pain
a masochist is someone that gets pleasure from there own pain.

A sociopath is someone that cannot feel emotions correctly, and doesn't have empathy for others.

I know this because I have quite a few s&M friends. And a friend that was diagnosed with "Antisocial Personality Disorder" (what you refer to as being a sociopath, and was formorlay known as psychopathy until 1980 when they changed the name) when he returned from Iraq. APD can happen due to PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) so i think it would easilly be doable on zalanthas.

I'm not a doctor though, though I am in the medical field. I had to take a test on mental illness', and that pretty much Jives with what I was taught as well.

[Jingo]

The true irony of this is that the 'feel' command is the perfect place to show that disconnect and truly get into the flesh of your sociopath.

Most excellent and true!

The argument can also be made that sociopathy - and even moreso psychopathy - is an evolutionary adaptation to an environment where one's own society is the greatest threat to their survival.  In that case it would be common enough on Zalanthas to hardly even be worth mention, much less be considered aberrant.

Actually, I seriously doubt you could put together a cogent argument for that, because it's patently absurd.  ...

tl;dr;waiting for the annotated

I somehow doubt sociopaths are as rare on Zalanthas as they are on Earth (if indeed they are even that rare on Earth).  Your average Zalanthan likely would have endured some sort of trauma in their early development that would lead to at least bearing some of these symptoms.  I don't think it has to do with evolution, per se ...   but I do agree that it would be seen as less aberrant.

That said, a lot of behavior of sociopaths that we understand as bad would likely be less relevant on Zalanthas, yes?

I was specifically commenting on the idea that the behavior in question could be an adaptive mechanism and be selected for.  I'm sure there are plenty of crazies on Zalanthas--that doesn't necessarily (or even probably) mean that it's a positive adaptation. 

I would probably argue that the vast majority of these have more to do with environmental influences than genotype, although there you start to get into somewhat murky philosophical territory regarding specific genotypes that may or may not be particularly adaptive in certain very limited socioeconomic niches.  My previous argument still holds on the level of the general population, however.

As far as how such persons are treated by the local populace, I would tend to take a somewhat harsher approach, given the scarcity of resources on Zalanthas.  When you're always only one waterskin away from dying, I suspect you'd be slightly more attuned to behaviors that deviate from reciprocity, and far less willing to allow them to continue unchecked.

Just going to add that certain social institutions may actually select for certain anti-social behaviors. Particularly competitive meritocracies.

This is an interesting article that links cheating in school with psychopathy. It doesn't really surprise me that business students are more likely to cheat and are more likely to be (non-clinically) anti-social. (no offense to any business students here)

Now imagine a Templar school and make it like 100 times more competitive and much less inhibitive.

[Cowboy]

In another world there might be sociopaths...in Zalanthas, your just another asshole.

[Fredd]

The true irony of this is that the 'feel' command is the perfect place to show that disconnect and truly get into the flesh of your sociopath.

Most excellent and true!

The argument can also be made that sociopathy - and even moreso psychopathy - is an evolutionary adaptation to an environment where one's own society is the greatest threat to their survival.  In that case it would be common enough on Zalanthas to hardly even be worth mention, much less be considered aberrant.

Actually, I seriously doubt you could put together a cogent argument for that, because it's patently absurd.  ...

tl;dr;waiting for the annotated

I somehow doubt sociopaths are as rare on Zalanthas as they are on Earth (if indeed they are even that rare on Earth).  Your average Zalanthan likely would have endured some sort of trauma in their early development that would lead to at least bearing some of these symptoms.  I don't think it has to do with evolution, per se ...   but I do agree that it would be seen as less aberrant.

That said, a lot of behavior of sociopaths that we understand as bad would likely be less relevant on Zalanthas, yes?

I was specifically commenting on the idea that the behavior in question could be an adaptive mechanism and be selected for.  I'm sure there are plenty of crazies on Zalanthas--that doesn't necessarily (or even probably) mean that it's a positive adaptation. 

I would probably argue that the vast majority of these have more to do with environmental influences than genotype, although there you start to get into somewhat murky philosophical territory regarding specific genotypes that may or may not be particularly adaptive in certain very limited socioeconomic niches.  My previous argument still holds on the level of the general population, however.

As far as how such persons are treated by the local populace, I would tend to take a somewhat harsher approach, given the scarcity of resources on Zalanthas.  When you're always only one waterskin away from dying, I suspect you'd be slightly more attuned to behaviors that deviate from reciprocity, and far less willing to allow them to continue unchecked.

Just going to add that certain social institutions may actually select for certain anti-social behaviors. Particularly competitive meritocracies.

This is an interesting article that links cheating in school with psychopathy. It doesn't really surprise me that business students are more likely to cheat and are more likely to be (non-clinically) anti-social. (no offense to any business students here)

Now imagine a Templar school and make it like 100 times more competitive and much less inhibitive.

Fairly certain you have to be a sociopath, or a meglomaniac to pass templar school in the south. Heh

[Synthesis]

Before we go too far into the woods, here are the DSM-IV criteria for antisocial personality disorder (a.k.a. sociopathy).

   1.There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:
        (1)  failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
        (2)  deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
        (3)  impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
        (4)  irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
        (5)  reckless disregard for the safety of self or others
        (6)  consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
        (7)  lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another
   2.The individual is at least age 18 years.
   3.There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years.
   4.The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or a manic episode.

Comment:
(1) Would probably be a very bad thing for an up-and-coming templar.
(2) Would be characteristic, but arguably this could not be considered a disorder within a society where it is effectively a social norm, except from an outsider's perspective.  Zalanthans probably would not consider this to be aberrant, and manifestation of this characteristic would not require an underlying personality disorder when they're essentially taking Lying, Cheating, and Re-appropriations 101.
(3) While this might characterize the vast majority of PC templars, I doubt it's true for templars in general.
(4) Maybe. However, you can't include fights that occur as a part of training or in the course of performing their policing duties, unless they occur demonstrably more often, are more vicious, or unwarranted.
(5) Again, probably more a characteristic of PC templars than of templars in general.
(6) Definitely not something that's going to get you ahead in the templar world.
(7) As with (2), this couldn't be considered aberrant when it is effectively a social norm for the templar caste.

So overall, there are 3 aspects of ASPD that probably would benefit someone finding themselves in the templar caste, 2 that would be neutral or mildly disadvantageous, and 2 that probably would have lethal consequences.  I suppose you could cherry-pick the aspects of your disorder for your PC, but it's a bit of a stretch to say that because there exists a particularly advantageous subset of the numerous characteristics of the disorder, that the disorder itself would be, on the average, advantageous.

[John]

I want to throw out there that I do see characters like this from time to time.

Characters that don't care about anyone, anything but themselves are usually quite boring imho.

my favorite character was q noble that had everyone convinced he wanted to find a cure for y
His poor spice addled cousin. He had a very important aide looking into all sorts of cures. In reality he was keeping said cousin alive because in comparison it made my character look better. I then convinced a templar it was in his best nterest to kill my cousin once I had decided my cousin had outlived is usefulness.

Complete sociopath. But he had everyone fooled.

[Kevo]

I was gonna jump in here and say a lot, having quite a bit of IC and RL experience with mental illnesses, but Synthesis said just about everything I wanted to, and in an intelligible way that I am incapable of.

However, I feel that 'sociopathy' is a form of evolution, and that is why so many chars in Arm fall into that category. It's almost necessary for survival imho.

[Yam]

A sociopath would be that guy at the Gaj who gets in fights with everyone, can't create or maintain social relationships, and is generally impulsive and obnoxious. He spends all of his money on alcohol and then tries to steal some coins from a guy who promised him a lucrative job. He fucks himself over and nobody likes him.

Sociopathy is a debilitating mental illness. Zalanthans just have a different standards of morals and ethics.

[Dakota]

If you want to know what is a sociopath, watch Sexy Beast and Ben Kingsleys character, Don Logan (his favorite character he's ever played according to him). I keep wanting to make a guy like him in Arm.

[Kismetic]

A Zalanthan sociopath is a breed who somehow figured out how to get power.

[Dakota]

A Zalanthan sociopath is a breed who somehow figured out how to get power.

Yeah. A breed whose desire to be accepted forces himself to make others unhappy while trying to pull them into his path to happiness...

a la..

this (pretend Don Logan is a Tuluki breed who lit up a tube of spice in the Gaj and later speaking w/ some Milita or Templar) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7ymGLcbq8A&feature=related

and this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1WtefXSp7A&feature=related

srsly.. Don Logan / Ben Kingsley = most charismatic, best played sociopath I've ever seen.

[Rhyden]

This is definitely a difficult mindset to get into, although the Zalanthan sociopath could fit in quite well seeing as remorse and empathy are generally seen as weaknesses.

Someone with antisocial personality disorder has no conscience, which would be rather difficult to rp using the think/feel commands. They wouldn't feel like other people do. Their "feelings" would include irrational anger, chronic depression, and a want to "win" in all things that they can manipulate. They would be similar to a half-giant, in the fact that they would look for reactions and patterns in other people's expressions to copy. Their actions would be extremely instinctive and sporadic, making a long-term career very difficult to keep. Most of all, the sociopath would not care about anyone else but themself.

This would be an extremely challenging role, imo. Kudos to any players who can pull it off.

[My 2 sids]

This is definitely a difficult mindset to get into, although the Zalanthan sociopath could fit in quite well seeing as remorse and empathy are generally seen as weaknesses.

Not to pick on ya Rhyden (:hug:), but where are people picking up that Zalanthans feel neither remorse nor empathy for their actions?  Just because some standards differ from RL Western thought, that doesn't mean those emotions don't exist IG or that they shouldn't.

Okay, so maybe one has numbed to the point that they hardly pay attention to the weeping beggars on the street or the smell of decomposing bodies.  That doesn't mean seeing one's neighbor being carried off to the pile, leaving three hungry mouths at home, doesn't suddenly produce feelings of empathy or the sudden urge to adopt.

Hey, being a shite-cloak is a brutal life.  That doesn't mean one can't feel sorry for the new recruit that just got her first ass-chomping; or share a drink with a buddy who just lost his best kank friend.

So, after a bit of torture by a soldier you blamed that spice smell in the apartment hall on the guy across -- doesn't mean you don't feel badly for lying.


I guess my thought is this:
Zanantas operates often on a "fight or flight" level for day-to-day living, it's a "keep your mouth shut" way of life.   If we decide sociopaths are common (or even mostly accepted) we're saying that the people in Zan are incapable of or ignore social decency, which just isn't the case.

[Rhyden]

This is definitely a difficult mindset to get into, although the Zalanthan sociopath could fit in quite well seeing as remorse and empathy are generally seen as weaknesses.

Not to pick on ya Rhyden (:hug:), but where are people picking up that Zalanthans feel neither remorse nor empathy for their actions?  Just because some standards differ from RL Western thought, that doesn't mean those emotions don't exist IG or that they shouldn't.

Nobody is saying all Zalanthans don't feel remorse nor empathy. I said showing remorse and empathy are seen as "weak" in Zalanthas (especially in Allanak), thus giving the true sociopath a slight advantage.

[Heade]

A sociopath would be that guy at the Gaj who gets in fights with everyone, can't create or maintain social relationships, and is generally impulsive and obnoxious. He spends all of his money on alcohol and then tries to steal some coins from a guy who promised him a lucrative job. He fucks himself over and nobody likes him.

Sociopathy is a debilitating mental illness. Zalanthans just have a different standards of morals and ethics.

This isn't necessarily true. While a sociopath could, in theory, be an absolute moron as you described, it's unlikely to be the case. Quite the opposite, in fact. Many sociopaths also happen to be geniuses. There are many high functioning sociopaths in the real world. You likely know several of them. They are characterized primarily by not feeling empathy or remorse. This means, mostly, really really selfish.

This does not mean that they are ignorant of laws and/or punishments for breaking them. They normally do. A high functioning sociopath will still have a strong sense of self-preservation. This will typically keep said sociopath from deviating from social and legal norms except in situations where they know they will get away with it. In case you didn't understand that, punishments for murder can still deter a sociopath from committing murder, even if said sociopath has no moral issue with killing people. However, immediate concerns will always override legal deterrents. So if a sociopath is in a dangerous situation where killing or hurting someone will immediately increase his chances of making it out of said situation, he will do so without compunction.

Further, and a far more scary fact than many of you likely would like to know, is that many high functioning sociopaths are -MASTERS- of reading people. They have spent their entire lives having to study and associate looks, behaviors, and vocalizations with emotions, intentions, and overall frames of mind. They are often able to feign empathy with relative ease. They are also far more likely to be able to read your behavior than the average person.

As for sociopaths in real life society, they may manifest in several ways:

A used car salesman who routinely rips people off, selling them junk cars and lying about problems they have, all while sleeping like a baby each night - High Functioning Sociopath. He might never kill anyone, or break any laws whatsoever, because it's all about him, and he doesn't want to go to jail. However, ethical and moral issues such as honesty, that don't have legal punishments attached to violating them, he has no problem with disregarding. (Ex. Empathy for that person you just swindled out of their life savings)

A wall street broker who lies to people for years about profits and losses, lining his pockets and buying yachts with the retirement funds of thousands (Sound familiar, anyone?)

A congressman who uses his position to increase his own fame, wealth, and comfort at the cost of the health and well being of his constituents.

And yes, Dexter.

My point is this. There is no big red flag that pops up over the heads of sociopaths. They often exist and live relatively mundane lives in society without ever being identified as a sociopath. It's a mental condition that is not a result of any biological issue, or physical impairment of the brain. It's a mental condition that is likely the result of social upbringing and events occurring in the early development of the subject.

It could even be argued that sociopaths have an advantage over everyone else, in that they are not hampered or held back by unnecessary concern for others, beyond how those others are useful to them personally. If I believed that this condition had anything to do with genetics, I would agree that it would be plausible that sociopathy could conceivably proliferate simply due to the singular, driving force behind their existence. Above all else, I would describe sociopaths thusly: Survivors.

[Yam]

That's psychopathy not sociopathy/ASPD.


edit: Which isn't really a well defined thing. There are pretty well determined diagnostic criteria for ASPD which don't fit the examples you're using. Impulsiveness, irresponsibility aggressiveness, and the failure to plan ahead are some of the defining features of ASPD.

[DustMight]

Listen:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/436/the-psychopath-test

[My 2 sids]

Nobody is saying all Zalanthans don't feel remorse nor empathy. I said showing remorse and empathy are seen as "weak" in Zalanthas (especially in Allanak), thus giving the true sociopath a slight advantage.

In what way?

If we, as players/staff, take Zalanthas into an entire world of "sociopaths are the norm"/ any remorse or empathy is weak we wipe out HUGE amounts of this very colorful & dynamic world.   Art, culture, fellowship, storytelling, traditions, these things do exist in Zalanthas and actually separate it from other "hack and slash" worlds where what one PC does had absolutely no matter for the others in the game.  (After all, that is what it means to be a sociopath -- to live life as an island unto oneself)

Remember too Clan is not an OOC term.  Even in the cities, everyone (including humans) live a very "tribal" lifestyle.  Compassion, loyalty, emotion, and empathy is simply reserved for one's kin/ tribe/ house/ clan. 

[spicemustflow]

That's psychopathy not sociopathy/ASPD.

edit: Which isn't really a well defined thing. There are pretty well determined diagnostic criteria for ASPD which don't fit the examples you're using. Impulsiveness, irresponsibility aggressiveness, and the failure to plan ahead are some of the defining features of ASPD.

I don't think one has to tick every characteristic on DSM-IV list to qualify and even so, sociopaths are still individuals and can display various degrees of said character traits.

Also, I'm not at all clear about what's the difference between sociopathy and psychopathy. Some experts think that psychos are hard wired to be as unfeeling as possible, while ASPDs were fucked during formative years.

[Morrolan]

http://www.oftwominds.com/blogjun08/survival6-08.html

One thing that these GDB discussions on culture in Zalanthas often miss is that social skills are, by and large, the best survival skills that people have. Being able to befriend people is more powerful, and less work, than becoming the best warrior in the known world.

Most Machiavellian people are quickly recognized, and often marginalized or placed "out in front" to "draw fire" (whether socially or literally).

The way that Zalanthans are different is that they have, and are used to, extremely hierarchical relationships and stable social stratification. This means that a sociopathic leader will be able to maintain social position without being a particularly competent leader by the sheer dint of his or her social standing.

So, while playing a person with sociopathic traits may be a relaxing and fun^* way to spend one's day, it is often not a long-term survival strategy. This might explain why so many characters seem to last only a few RL weeks.

Morrolan

^* Most movie-heroes in action movies have sociopathic traits--they kill people and then go on with life as if it had not happened. We enjoy the fantasy that killing people doesn't mess us up. We talk as if it doesn't, or wouldn't, mess us up. That is part of the "macho" creed.

[Rhyden]

Nobody is saying all Zalanthans don't feel remorse nor empathy. I said showing remorse and empathy are seen as "weak" in Zalanthas (especially in Allanak), thus giving the true sociopath a slight advantage.

In what way?

Murder, Corruption, Betrayal.

I'm not saying sociopathy is the norm. I'm not saying all Zalanthans are sociopaths. I'm saying a sociopath might have a slight advantage in Zalanthas. The sociopath doesn't have that annoying thing called a conscience nagging at them when they're rising through the ranks of whatever profession they are pursuing. This is not to say that empaths are equally as valuable in Zalanthas, but in many cutthroat professions involving murder, corruption, and betrayal, a sociopath would surely have an upper hand.

edited to add: Great post Heade, good stuff.

[Dalmeth]

Murder, Corruption, Betrayal.

I'm not saying sociopathy is the norm. I'm not saying all Zalanthans are sociopaths. I'm saying a sociopath might have a slight advantage in Zalanthas. The sociopath doesn't have that annoying thing called a conscience nagging at them when they're rising through the ranks of whatever profession they are pursuing. This is not to say that empaths are equally as valuable in Zalanthas, but in many cutthroat professions involving murder, corruption, and betrayal, a sociopath would surely have an upper hand.

edited to add: Great post Heade, good stuff.

The reality is quite the opposite.  Sociopaths exist by taking advantage of a stable social system.  This is seen as a negative because it tends to degrade the social system that they rely on.  In essence, sociopaths are only capable of taking and using what they take to take more.  They are unproductive.

Take a close look at Synthesis's post.  The traits mentioned are those of a rabid dependent.  In a harsh environment, the sociopaths are the first to go.

[Rhyden]

Murder, Corruption, Betrayal.

I'm not saying sociopathy is the norm. I'm not saying all Zalanthans are sociopaths. I'm saying a sociopath might have a slight advantage in Zalanthas. The sociopath doesn't have that annoying thing called a conscience nagging at them when they're rising through the ranks of whatever profession they are pursuing. This is not to say that empaths are equally as valuable in Zalanthas, but in many cutthroat professions involving murder, corruption, and betrayal, a sociopath would surely have an upper hand.

edited to add: Great post Heade, good stuff.

The reality is quite the opposite.  Sociopaths exist by taking advantage of a stable social system.  This is seen as a negative because it tends to degrade the social system that they rely on.  In essence, sociopaths are only capable of taking and using what they take to take more.  They are unproductive.

Take a close look at Synthesis's post.  The traits mentioned are those of a rabid dependent.  In a harsh environment, the sociopaths are the first to go.

To say sociopaths are unproductive is a broad generalization. Not all people with anti-personality disorder are the same. There are varying degrees of the personality disorder as well. There are many productive sociopaths in the real world, and I believe there could be in Zalanthas too.

Do you believe a cutthroat assassin who is a sociopath wouldn't have an advantage over a cutthroat assassin who is an empath? What about the ruthless mercenary? Or the greedy businessman? The power-craving Templar?

Zalanthas society still have laws and rules that a sociopath can live and abide by. My point is that there are several professions in Allanak, Tuluk, and elsewhere, where a sociopath could potentially thrive, despite having disorders listed with classes DSM-IV or ICD-10.

[Recharge]

Have a good family friend diagnosed as a sociopath, could have never suspected something was wrong with him. Nicest man I've ever met. Always helpful, was very productive around my moms house (which needed a lotta work). Never caused any trouble with anyone in the neighbourhood during his stay. Mom told me later he had some plans involving some serious drugs at the time, which he never got around to producing cause of things that came up.

Now I believe a sociopath would have at least, somewhat of an advantage in Zalanthas. The ability to read people and mimic emotion (from what Ive seen from my example) seems as if they could at least attain some level greater then the average Zalanthan. No not every commoner could even be one, or anything even close to being one. But Ive no idea how to finish my statement..

[Marauder Moe]

Maybe this is a silly question, but... why the heck does it matter whether or not sociopathy/psychopathy is advantageous or disadvantageous in Zalanthan society?

[My 2 sids]

Maybe this is a silly question, but... why the heck does it matter whether or not sociopathy/psychopathy is advantageous or disadvantageous in Zalanthan society?

Because if it is acceptable it gives players a free license to have their PCs act w/o any moral or societal compass in the game.

[Rhyden]

Maybe this is a silly question, but... why the heck does it matter whether or not sociopathy/psychopathy is advantageous or disadvantageous in Zalanthan society?

Because if it is acceptable it gives players a free license to have their PCs act w/o any moral or societal compass in the game.

Are you saying there shouldn't be any sociopaths ig because it would allow players to powergame and pkill?

I believe it is possible to role-play a well-developed sociopath character in Zalanthas without going into these extremes. You would have to use your think & feels strategically in order to portray the absense of conscience, but like I said in my first post, it would be very challenging.

Also, remember, that anti-personality disorder is a disorder. It is still a flaw. Yes, I said it would give such characters a slight advantage in some scenarios, but there would also inevitably be huge disadvantages too (the traits are outlined in Synth's post).

[Marauder Moe]

Maybe this is a silly question, but... why the heck does it matter whether or not sociopathy/psychopathy is advantageous or disadvantageous in Zalanthan society?

Because if it is acceptable it gives players a free license to have their PCs act w/o any moral or societal compass in the game.

Well I didn't say "acceptable"... but I don't think acceptability is a factor in determining whether or not a particular character trait is OOCly allowed either.  In Zalanthan society it's unacceptable to have sex with members not of your own species.  It is not, however, against the game rules.

Likewise, I'm not entirely sure what's inherently wrong with playing a character who lacks a moral compass.

I think it all boils down to roleplaying well (realistically and consistently) is good, roleplaying poorly is bad.

[Kismetic]

Oh, no!  Evil characters with no guilt reflex hiding in plain sight are bad for stories!

Wait ...


Nevermind.

[Dalmeth]

Likewise, I'm not entirely sure what's inherently wrong with playing a character who lacks a moral compass.

I think it all boils down to roleplaying well (realistically and consistently) is good, roleplaying poorly is bad.

My point exactly.  The myth of the sociopath and the reality are worlds apart.

So if folks want to use pop culture icons as inspirations for their characters, that's fine by me, but using the clinical term to instruct others will just lead to confusion and cheap-ass characters.

I say the really scary people are the ones who don't do bad things because they're mentally defective.  Then, the lying, thieving, and murdering isn't just sad, it's downright terrifying.

[My 2 sids]

I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but Moe's example was great:  do some have sexual relations with those outside their own race?  Yes.  But, that doesn't mean such would be considered acceptable socially normal ICly, nor can the OOC argument be made that it should become ICly acceptable.

[Marauder Moe]

Likewise, I'm not entirely sure what's inherently wrong with playing a character who lacks a moral compass.

I think it all boils down to roleplaying well (realistically and consistently) is good, roleplaying poorly is bad.

My point exactly.  The myth of the sociopath and the reality are worlds apart.

So if folks want to use pop culture icons as inspirations for their characters, that's fine by me, but using the clinical term to instruct others will just lead to confusion and cheap-ass characters.

Wait, what?

Roleplaying mental illness realistically, backed by clinical descriptions, makes for cheap and confusing characters... but playing out the Hollywood version of a mental illness is A-OK?

[Rhyden]

I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but Moe's example was great:  do some have sexual relations with those outside their own race?  Yes.  But, that doesn't mean such would be considered acceptable socially normal ICly, nor can the OOC argument be made that it should become ICly acceptable.

Yes, inter-racial relations in Arm violate social norms. Would sociopaths violate social norms too? In Allanak, I think barely. In Tuluk? Most likely. In Red Storm? Would anyone care? In tribes? Very likely. However, there is a big difference between a social norm, and an anti-social personality disorder.

I think this is where we have completely different perspectives:

You see a sociopath character as an excuse to play a 2-dimensional twink and ignore game rules and documentation.

I see a sociopath character as an interesting, extremely challenging chance to portray a realistic, well-layered, dysfunctional character.

As has been said before in the thread, not all sociopaths are serial killers. Most sociopaths lead completely normal lives, and the intelligent ones would seem just like you or I.

It should be noted that in real life, sociopaths make up about 1-4% of the population. They would be very rare, but I believe still entirely present in Zalanthas. If a player chooses to play a sociopath, I believe it would be one of the most challenging roles they would experience if done right.

Because how does one act out a character with absolutely no conscience? For a sociopath the answer may come easy, but for everyone else with a conscience the idea is foreign and bizarre. This is why I say it would be challenging, and if anyone ever attempts such a role, huge kudos to them.

[Dalmeth]

Roleplaying mental illness realistically, backed by clinical descriptions, makes for cheap and confusing characters... but playing out the Hollywood version of a mental illness is A-OK?

I'm saying it's easier.  Clinical descriptions are made for diagnosis, not for replication.  For that reason, they are incomplete when it comes to trying to understand the character.

People who write for entertainment are more likely to present a more complete mindset.  Choose your works carefully, and you'll find far richer fields for your RP fodder.

[thelinguring]

This is only partially related but I was wondering if anyone has ever done a cannibal PC. Like a kinda all around charming person that also happens to eat people. If so I want to hear about it. That is if anything like that has ever even gotten past the staffers before...

[Fathi]

This is only partially related but I was wondering if anyone has ever done a cannibal PC. Like a kinda all around charming person that also happens to eat people. If so I want to hear about it. That is if anything like that has ever even gotten past the staffers before...

My Salarri was a cannibal a couple times.

Not many people found that one out.

[thelinguring]

My Salarri was a cannibal a couple times.

Not many people found that one out.

Neat. I have an idea for one, but I don't think I have the experience or time to make them really great.

[ShaLeah]

All nobles and templars are sociopaths.

[My 2 sids]

All nobles and templars are sociopaths.

Can you elaborate?   that makes no sense.

[Synthesis]

All nobles and templars are sociopaths.

Can you elaborate?   that makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense if you have no idea what you're talking about and haven't bothered to read the rest of the thread.

[ShaLeah]

All nobles and templars are sociopaths.

Can you elaborate?   that makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense if you have no idea what you're talking about and haven't bothered to read the rest of the thread.

He's right, I didn't read the thread, I read the title and responded to that.