Picking on New Players, Fair or Unfair?

[HavokBlue]

I always get a laugh out of it when a veteran player handling a powerful character dresses the character up as a noob, lets himself be led away, then kicks the snot out of the would-be newbie killer in his own apartment.

This post made me realize how many people tried to do this to my first character. 

[Zoltan]

I try to OOCly help extremely obvious noobs, no matter what I happen to be playing at the time. I've had some, eh, "interesting" things happen sometimes, however.

Example one, I was a long-lived gemmer and happened to be sitting in the Gaj one day. Enter the newb, totally clueless, having trouble with commands, etc. I drag him off and start trying to help him out. It all went very well, and they seemed to get it. But then of course, their PC looked upon my mundane-hating, grizzled, spice-addled gemmer favorably. It put me in a tricky spot where I had to explain the prejudices against gemmers. A similar thing happened another time with that same character of mine, after saving the life of a new player in the wilds. Sometimes you just have to cut 'em off and toss them into uncut ICness.

I was playing a Byn leader once, and believe me: you meet a lot of new players when you're a Byn leader. Not usually too difficult, because not only can you gently guide them in their noobishness as an ooc-ish mentor, but you're also their IC boss. It's pretty easy to get into. However, one time it fell absolutely flat. I was trying to help out a PC who revealed to me that English was their second language and that they were having trouble. Typing-wise, I thought they were doing great! So I tried to hand out some friendly encouragement, but I could sense some IC-bluriness, so I gave the disclaimer that my -character- might not be so friendly! The separation between IC and OOC apparently got... jumbled. I think at one point they actually swore at me in French, with the say command. Yeesh. If you're still around, foreign player, sorry things started so roughly!

As for the basic point of the thread, no, I don't target obviously new players with serious harm at all, especially if I'm in a clearly more powerful coded or social position. I define "serious harm" as PKing or major theft (all of their food and water, every single one of their coins). If a new player or a new PC was stirring up serious trouble (let's say, entering the 'Rinth to try and bash mobs), then it's open season regardless of newbishness. Sometimes you just gotta keep it real, and that's the best thing you can do for a new player.

[SandCat]

Hi all,

As a newbie myself (currently on my fourth caracter) my opinion is this:

It's ok to pick on a newbie if it's in character for you to do that.

But what's not ok (in my opinion) is using OOC knowledge as an excuse to do so.

ie: You know OOcly that those clothes that guy is wearing mean he's probably a newbie. So you take advantage of that IC.

That's just crap, bad roleplay and would likely drive me away more than some harsh treatment that was done in character with excellent roleplay.

Truth to the world and to the character is what for me seperates Arm from the other MUDs I've tried, and what makes me come back for more.

Cheers

[Gunnerblaster]

Hi all,

As a newbie myself (currently on my fourth caracter) my opinion is this:

It's ok to pick on a newbie if it's in character for you to do that.

But what's not ok (in my opinion) is using OOC knowledge as an excuse to do so.

ie: You know OOcly that those clothes that guy is wearing mean he's probably a newbie. So you take advantage of that IC.

That's just crap, bad roleplay and would likely drive me away more than some harsh treatment that was done in character with excellent roleplay.

Truth to the world and to the character is what for me seperates Arm from the other MUDs I've tried, and what makes me come back for more.

Cheers

Welcome to Armageddon.

Enjoy your stay! (Because we will)

(Leave your chalton leather boots at the doorway, please.)

[Dakota]

I've been following this thread. As a player whose like.. 5 months in..

My first character lasted like less than a day.

In that time I was:
-helped by some nice stump (thanks mr. n00b helping stump)
-raped and KO'd by his roommate
-saw some elf get killed in the market by guards.
-taken out to the salt flats by some guy and had my backpack stolen (with all my water and sid and no idea how to get water)
-locked out of Nak and killed by a gith.

It was pretty harsh and O_o coming from simutronics muds.

But it hooked me on arm. Both the niceness of the stump (how he helped and kept almost everything ICly, save for some OOC notes on syntax usage), and the harshness of how I was basically used and then left for dead in the salt flats.

I don't think it's unfair.. as long as you have IC reasoning.

[SandCat]

Welcome to Armageddon.

Enjoy your stay! (Because we will)

(Leave your chalton leather boots at the doorway, please.)

Thanks! But please can I keep my Tandu Sausages?

[X-D]

Um, the thread title is bad.

You are not supposed to pick on the players, old or new.

Now, if the title was, "Picking on new players PCs, Fair or Unfair?"

The answer is Fair. They should be treated the same as anybody else.

[jriley]

Thank you for your responses.  I'd like to point out to everyone that I have not once received a complaint from noobs in my years of interacting with them.  I think that a few of you are mistaking "fucking with a noob" with "griefing a noob", the latter of which I would never never do.

As a thought experiment, were I to ask players if it were okay to fuck with the character of someone who had been playing for over a year, I'm pretty sure I'd get like a 98% response that this is okay.

Were I to ask if it were okay to fuck with someone in their first two minutes of game play, I'm pretty sure that most of the players, and like 98% of the staff would respond that this is not
okay.

So really, the thread topic better relates to knowing when it's okay to screw with people.  Since players adapt to the game at different rates, I don't think there is really a rule of thumb.  I'd suggest that it has to be based upon signs that one is getting from the player themselves, as to whether or not they are ready for it.  Eventually, we all need to be ready for it.

In any event, I'd like to draw your attention to the post made by Evil Erdlu.  I think he offered a valid response to the thread topic that deserves consideration.

I simply separate IC and OOC. Let's say an elf who's absolutely a newbie has entered Zalanthas. I'm a gemmed dwarf. He tries to speak with me. I simply ignore him or give him a glare IC, but then quickly OOC: "In this MUD, elves are known to be thieving bastards who steal like kenders and murder like goblins. I'm also a gemmed elementalist, this means I'm a filthy magicker who's just more than a pariah.". Then I'll give him my IM adresses if he's interested and lead him to the helpers page. I will OOC him that my character will be more lenient and will show him important spots of the city if asked IC, but normally he would barely interact with him.

A bit cold? Maybe.. But even though I can go out of my way to show him where he can buy a waterskin or a sapphire-embedded sword, I won't be a nanny. First; I play this game for my own enjoyment too and I'd like to get more involved with my dwarf's thoughts about accomplishing 23rd part of his focus. I won't go hunt scrabs with him, even if my dwarf can easily ad-hoc an IC reason for that.

Second; I believe new people should feel forced to read the documentation and act accordingly, or having them hang around some more just to play a friendly elf or a human warrior that tries to be a sorcerer - God, I can't count how many human warriors approached to my dwarven gemmers about being mages themselves - isn't fruitful.

ARM does indeed take time. This morning, my last character report took half an hour to write. If a new player doesn't bother to even read the beginner's docs, I'll try to kindly force him to read them, answering nearly every question with "You can read more about it at http://www.armageddon.org/....." even if it takes more time to find the link than simply answering him. Or he won't bother later, too and he'll keep on being a newbie.

[Preacher]

After three days of reading everything I could on the website, I apped and got my first character.  After a couple of hours of trying to figure out what Nak looked like, I ran into pretty near my first pc interaction with a tall, beautiful woman.  She took my young male pc to the market and convinced him to spend over three small on a pair of pants.  More than a third of his starting sids...poof.

It was perfect and beautiful.  She was just slightly flirty, hinting that he needed some nice clothes, led him around by the chin.  Wonderful emoting and real interaction.

Over two years later, I heartily recommend this particular kind of messing with a newb.

[DustMight]

Preacher, that was amazing roleplaying on your part - something that many old players wouldn't allow themselves to experience.  I applaud you.

I try to live by this - my new character ate something that I knew was poisonous that he didn't necessarily know was poisonous.  He survived and learned. 

I hope you continue that awesome roleplay and hope you have many exciting experiences.

[Reiteration]

If they use 'say' more than once every ten minutes, I am a nice guy.

If they use 'tell' at least once, I'ma show them what it means to kank a carru.

[Marauder Moe]

Don't pick on newbies in any way that you wouldn't do to a veteran.  (Note: I'm not endorsing the converse statement.)


If a newbie attempts to engage you in an unfavorable social circumstance (ie one of you is an elf/magicker/'rinther/mutant/whatever), I think it's much better to roll with it ICly rather than go OOC and explain the prejudices involved.  I'm certainly not saying turn all friendly and helpful, but it's really quite possible to be both surly/hateful and helpful to a new character.  Going OOC should really be a last resort means to explain things that really can't be explained otherwise, like code issues.

[Potaje]

I once played a soldier that ran into a Newbie sneaky, and with a gentle authority made them my spy, that way I could justify teaching them about the city and how to utilize their skills. It was quiet fun for the brief amount of time they lived.

[Nana]

hi everyone

I don't consider myself a noob. I consider myself.. semi-noob. I think as a semi-noob I'm in a great position to help noobies. It would make me feel really good if while playing armageddon, I could help noobies. Because I recently got hooked and I want to make this game fucking huuuuuuge, and to do that I NEED TO HELP NOOBIES.

And no, I don't mean "give them a whole buncha sid, tell them where to hunt and then shoo them out the gates for ADVENTAR!" No, I mean, I can RP with noobies, probably in a tavern, and create a good scene. I love RPing and I'll RP with damn near anything, even myself (which I often do because I am lonely...). And I can RP appropriately with anyone (even a necker) to help them understand what this setting is like, I think.


example:

I've seen noobie neckers. Ones who inappropriately acted with my characters. In addition to the "BAH FUCKING NECKER" act, I engaged other PCs at the time to RP with the noobie, and made an interesting scene out of it. Players who I knew had more experience than I did, to boot. And in the end I think I helped that noobie, even though he ended up no sids richer (i hope) and probably a little confused why everyone was disgusted by his handsum elfie.

As such I humbly request that an imm control an NPC every now and then to get experienced chars and direct them towards a noobie. I know you're busy with people dying out in the wastes and all that jazz, but it shouldn't take you more than a few seconds to have a citizen NPC run around screaming in a panic about some inappropriate noobish behavior spotted in a tavern, to alert older players to come "help" by enacting a "scene" that "immerses" the noob, whether it be to smack them on the head and send them stiffly to jail, or to do whatever it is their char is inclined to do..

plus, it would really send that noob for a loop if they suddenly thought every NPC could possibly "out" their actions.. it would make the world feel real and all that.. and I think it's unfair that just veteran players get imm exposure..

just my two cents (I edited)

thanx

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Loving the enthusiasm -- but just to correct you, veteran players don't hog all of the attention. You noobies and semi-noobies get plenty.

[Kronus]

Loving the enthusiasm -- but just to correct you, veteran players don't hog all of the attention. You noobies and semi-noobies get plenty.

You might very well not even realize that you're getting it, however.  When it's not a gith eating your face, staff interaction is usually very subtly done.

[Nana]

yeah, as a semi-noobie I know I get plenty... but as a true noobie I don't recall it. well, maybe I missed something. after all, I was a tr00 n00b.

[Reiteration]

Reflecting back, I can discern a number of times staff had interacted with my noob self. Haven't noticed it so much lately. 

[spicemustflow]

I completely break character when dealing with new players. It would be better to give them a friendly OOC lecture about whatever they should know and let them chew on that instead of trying for an uneasy mix of rp and education.

[Zoan]

I get the (perhaps wrong) impression that most veteran players favor isolationist outdoorsy roles over the socialite roles. So they probably don't really hog much attention at all if so.

[Barzalene]

I get the (perhaps wrong) impression that most veteran players favor isolationist outdoorsy roles over the socialite roles. So they probably don't really hog much attention at all if so.

I think they can just sustain them longer.

[lordcooper]

I completely break character when dealing with new players. It would be better to give them a friendly OOC lecture about whatever they should know and let them chew on that instead of trying for an uneasy mix of rp and education.

This was my outlook, staff doesn't really approve.

I'm cool with that, though.

Don't eat my brainz!

[jriley]

I completely break character when dealing with new players. It would be better to give them a friendly OOC lecture about whatever they should know and let them chew on that instead of trying for an uneasy mix of rp and education.

Yeah, I absolutely break character with noobs. 

[jhunter]

I just play my character without any thought of whether or not the player is new on the other end. I don't specifically target anyone for aggression -or- coddling. If they do something to make their character a target, then they'll hopefully learn from that. If someone appears to be having an issue with the code or commands, I'll help them out via the OOC command. I personally feel that going OOC to "baby" them is nearly as bad as targetting them specifically because you believe they are new. Edit: What I mean more specifically about "going OOC to "baby" them" is that I will not have my character behave in an OOC manner.

[lussien]

I'm still the awesomness-est newb evar.

Well, the first time that I played, there was a nice old man sitting at the Gaj and I was a young, pretty, virgin girl. Yes. Seriously, my first PC was a virgin - lol. So he role played with me, interacted with me in a way that was welcoming, talked about mundane stuffs and I asked about the first thing was, 'How do I get a job and kept fed and watered'? All Icly, I was able to derive information. Also that a little animated little boy in the middle of nowhere was showing me where the poop seller was. That imm, was so adorable. "Whoa! 10 whole coins!". During that time, I found myself summoning the HELP syntax to read about stuffs.

There was once that I actually just, broke out of character in a room full of gangsta guys to ask, "What's a kank? Should my PC know about something commonly used like that?". I use OOC only when I'm really clueless and when I get a feeling that my PC should know what the hell is going on. Then I discovered the forums. From there, a lot of things is available to be read and information that is shared.

Either way, I don't think it's nice to like, take all a newbie has. Probably something that'll sting would be good. Of course after messing them, you have to clean them up a little right? Or maybe even face the consequence that will follow when the noob gets powahful and pwnts you like that.

-flees-