Picking on New Players, Fair or Unfair?

[jriley]

Somewhat of an interesting discussion going on in another thread about player recruitment and player retention.  I encourage anyone to read through it and contribute your thoughts if you haven't already.

That being said, there appears to be somewhat of a side-discussion cropping up about whether or not it's cool to fuck with noobs. 

Some new players will want to be screwed with, and will think the game is too easy if no one messes with them during the first couple of hours of playing.

Other new players will want to play for a good six to eight hours before they're attacked by PCs, needing some time to get used to the game commands, etc.

I'm glad you made it through your first tavern scene, though I'm a little sad I won't get to eat your tandu sausages.

Actually someone got their hands on some of my stuff before I figured out I should toss everything into my pack.. and CLOSE it!

I suppose there's nothing like a good thief's welcome to Armageddon!

I guess it bears mentioning that people preying on and exploiting new players is a great way to drive them off the game.  I deliberately don't steal from newbie characters because it's hard enough surviving those first few days.

How do you know the difference?  How do you know if it's cool to fuck with a noob or not?

Here is the guideline that I use:

I'm one of the more patient players that I know with noobs, and spend considerable effort helping noobs.  I have a careful standard that I use to know when the ideal point to attack them is.  It basically boils down to attacking them at the moment when they begin thinking for themselves.

Consider it for a moment.  A new player logs in.  Hopefully, a senior player notices them and interacts with them.  New players will have plenty of questions, and will tend to follow advice from senior players somewhat blindly at first.  Really, what choice do they have?  If you tell them they need armor, they will go buy armor.  If you tell them to keep their hood up in the desert to keep sand out of their eyes, they will keep their hood up in the desert.  If you tell them to sheathe their blade before entering a tavern, they will sheathe their blade.  They trust you.  They have no clue what's going on.

However, at some point, it's inevitable that any new player will become dissatisfied with the advice that they're getting, and point out that they want to try some things on their own.  This is natural.  For example, if you help a new player to get food and water, they may go along with you, but then if you suggest that they join the Byn, they may point out that they'd rather join House Salarr. 

This is the --perfect-- time to fuck with them.  It's at this point where they have enough grasp on the game code that they're starting to think for themselves, and this is the best time to try to give them a swift kick in the nuts to help them understand that, when thinking for themselves, they need to constantly maintain a healthy mistrust of all other PCs, at all times. 

Anyways, I'm not proposing this guideline as a rule or anything.  It's merely the standard that I use for deciding when it's appropriate to fuck with the new players.  That being said, I tend to fuck with new players a lot and I've never had a complaint.  A couple of people that I fucked with went on to become long term players.

Anyone have a better idea?  Better standard for judgment?  Thoughts?  Criticism?

[Rhyden]

It's encouraged to be courteous towards new players (ie. explaining code, stuff they would know, where to find helpfiles, etc) but after that, they'll have to commence the extremely steep climb of "fitting in". Whether or not it's from the hands of a Pkiller, a nasty NPC, thieves, or dehydration, eventually new players are going to face some very harsh circumstances which they will need to deal with or die.

Picking on new players to intentionally take advantage of their newb status is of course, bad form.

Unless they never use any caps/punctuation whatsoever, in which case, feel free to kick the ever loving shit out of them for me.

[Malifaxis]

I would never lurk in a tavern/entry point and steal from new entries.  That's the lowest of the low.  It's like spawn camping.  fucking bullshit.

That being said, I would steal from everyone I could if I was playing a thieving necker.  But since everyone knows I never do that, there's no reason to worry.

[Kronus]

Stepping into Arm for the first time is a bewildering experience.  Seriously.  You don't know where the hell you are, you don't know where the hell anything else is, you don't know how the hell to get there and you don't know what the hell you're supposed to do there even if you somehow manage to find it.  At least you get money, food and basic clothes now.  In my newbie days you got 500 'sid and had to buy your own pants before someone saw you.

Still, all else being equal the game starts fucking with you the moment you go IC.  If you're lucky or thorough, you might find a waterseller before you run out.  You probably will think that buying stupidly overpriced beer at the bar is the only way to stay hydrated.   You will get hungry, be too feeble to go hunting, and will not know to craft <ingredient> into <cheap, easy food item> until someone decides to help you out.   You will probably spend a few hours trying to talk to NPCs, wondering why everyone is ignoring you, until you figure out that NPCs are "a adjective, adjective species gender" while the players are "the adjective, adjective species gender".   Most of those players have stopped only long enough to look down at you before moving on, and you have no idea how to find them.

All of this happens well before you manage to get a foot into anything that even halfway hints at how awesome playing on Armageddon can be.  You have no idea that any of that awesomeness exists; all you know is that you can't fight anything you've come across, you're out of money, you're starting to starve and you still haven't figured out what you're supposed to be doing.   The last thing you need is some jackass to sneak-hide in, steal your sword off your belt and sneak-hide back out.  Now you can't even defend yourself against the things you have no prayer of killing.  Awesome game.  


Sure, some players are smart.  Some thrive in adversity.  Some just get lucky and figure it out fast.  And while I'm not advocating coddling new players or bending the IC reality of Zalanthas, I think that anyone can come up with an IC justification to not murder/steal/cheat/lie/misdirect someone until they manage to find their footing and start enjoying themselves a little.    Getting shit on while you feel like you're already drowning in shit is not a recipe for promoting game growth.

[Gunnerblaster]

If you knowingly target new players (in a codedly negative manner), you are in bad form.

IF YOU ARE GUILTY OF THE ABOVE, YOU ARE A BAD ROLEPLAYER AND DO NOT CONTRIBUTE TO THE GAME, AT ALL.

Examples of targeting a new player is as such: You spot the newbie chargen gear - If you have the ability, and/or the silvertongue for it - You lead them somewhere dangerous and kill them - Taking their money.

That doesn't 'immerse' them in shit by killing them for their money by taking OOC advantage of them.

[brytta.leofa]

I think it's usually best to not give new players any impression that you're trying, OOCly, to help them.  (I don't say that you shouldn't help them; just try to avoid letting them sense it.  It's anti-immersive and encourages bad habits in 'em.) 

But if you do decide to act like Mister Helpful--"Hi! Are you new in town? Want to know where the waterseller is?"--don't abuse the trust they're putting in you.  IF YOU PET THE NEWBIE, YOU CAN'T KICK IT.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If you abuse newbies on purpose, I will find you, and cut you to death.

If you give them a hard time, ICly, without damaging them, I will find you, and give you metals.

[Aaron Goulet]

I tend to treat new players the same as I do everyone else, with the following exceptions:

- I try harder to interact with them.
- If they ask for directions, or where to get <insert common shop item here> ICly, I'll generally comply, if not walk with them to their destination.
- I answer OOCquestions or proactively provide syntax help (when I can tell that someone needs it) as politely as possible.

Other than that, it's up to my PC how to deal with them.  I don't think I've ever directly killed a PC so far, so they have little to fear, but I think that even newer players are perceptive enough to notice when someone is being unrealistically nice to their character, and it has the potential to ruin their immersion.

EDIT: Damn, Brytta beat me to it.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't think so, Aaron. People are insanely nice on H&S Muds. Not a joke. You log in, you get five tells all saying welcome and hit me up if you need love.

So no, I don't agree with you about somebody understanding that you are being too nice. I cut newbs breaks. Lots of them.

[number13]

Is it horrible and wrong to type, "Ooc My character is an elf. All elves are con-artists and out to get you."?

[Bogre]

Re: above, nope.


I say you can pick on newbies if its ICly sensible, but not codedly, and so that it serves as IC interaction to draw them into the world. If your character is a badass militia, scare them, try to recruit them, profile them, whatever...(then take them aside and be like...how are you finding the game? Do you need help?) I've had positive responses with some of my characters who were surly or scary helping out newbs. I know some of the things that -hooked- me were being terrified of people, which made the friends my characters made in game that much closer.  (And obviously, not picking on newbs but interacting with them is okay, too!)

So do your utmost to get them involved, whether it be through friendly or unfriendly IC interactions (but if you do negative IC, explain it and offer help OOCly). -Don't- pick on newbies codedly or pk them etc etc.

[Aaron Goulet]

So do your utmost to get them involved, whether it be through friendly or unfriendly IC interactions (but if you do negative IC, explain it and offer help OOCly). -Don't- pick on newbies codedly or pk them etc etc.

Thanks.  This is what I was trying to say.

[evil_erdlu]

I simply separate IC and OOC. Let's say an elf who's absolutely a newbie has entered Zalanthas. I'm a gemmed dwarf. He tries to speak with me. I simply ignore him or give him a glare IC, but then quickly OOC: "In this MUD, elves are known to be thieving bastards who steal like kenders and murder like goblins. I'm also a gemmed elementalist, this means I'm a filthy magicker who's just more than a pariah.". Then I'll give him my IM adresses if he's interested and lead him to the helpers page. I will OOC him that my character will be more lenient and will show him important spots of the city if asked IC, but normally he would barely interact with him.

A bit cold? Maybe.. But even though I can go out of my way to show him where he can buy a waterskin or a sapphire-embedded sword, I won't be a nanny. First; I play this game for my own enjoyment too and I'd like to get more involved with my dwarf's thoughts about accomplishing 23rd part of his focus. I won't go hunt scrabs with him, even if my dwarf can easily ad-hoc an IC reason for that.

Second; I believe new people should feel forced to read the documentation and act accordingly, or having them hang around some more just to play a friendly elf or a human warrior that tries to be a sorcerer - God, I can't count how many human warriors approached to my dwarven gemmers about being mages themselves - isn't fruitful.

ARM does indeed take time. This morning, my last character report took half an hour to write. If a new player doesn't bother to even read the beginner's docs, I'll try to kindly force him to read them, answering nearly every question with "You can read more about it at http://www.armageddon.org/....." even if it takes more time to find the link than simply answering him. Or he won't bother later, too and he'll keep on being a newbie.

[Lizzie]

There are newbies who I want to take home and give them pretty collars and stroke their fur and give them yummy treats and make my cat jealous. And there are newbies who I want to siteban. There are also the ones inbetween, who I'll usually make -some- attempt at civility with. If this is met with _some_ attempt at roleplay, then it becomes a fun scene. If not, I just remove my character from the scene and let someone else deal with it. That's how I was treated when I was new, and that was fine by me. It set a pattern of "tolerance to those who try, intolerance to those who don't."

[Marshmellow]

I'm with Evil Erdlu.  I completely divorce IC from OOC.  I use OOC to give hints/advice and to remind that while I'm helping on an OOC level, my character is a different person and may not have the newbie's best interests at heart.  I then continue along with the scene as best as can be done.

[a strange shadow]

As a side note, this thread is making me realize how completely divisive our current roleplay standards are.

On topic, I use OOC to help newbies, and remain IC otherwise - and yeah, anyone who abuses newbie ignorance to gank them is just an asshole.

[Barzalene]

As a side note, this thread is making me realize how completely divisive our current roleplay standards are.

This seems like an interesting point, but I'm not certain what you mean.

[Malifaxis]

I divorce IC from OOC, but it is to our advantage to have more players in the game, so in that aspect I will make sure there's some IC reason for my PC to actually assist a newbie for a little while if they need assistance.

If they're looking for the market, my character suddenly has a reason to go there (usually it's to buy soap), and I'll explain the town on the way.

If they're getting all chatty with some thieving necker, I'll pop into their mind and mention how untrustworthy and thieving that necker obviously is, because I fucking hate neckers IC'ly.

Even if you're playing a dick, you can find a reason to help a newbie.  Keeping IC and OOC separate is no excuse.  You can spare a moment of your fucking immerzionz to help them out.

[lordcooper]

If you knowingly target new players (in a codedly negative manner), you are in bad form.

IF YOU ARE GUILTY OF THE ABOVE, YOU ARE A BAD ROLEPLAYER AND DO NOT CONTRIBUTE TO THE GAME, AT ALL.

Examples of targeting a new player is as such: You spot the newbie chargen gear - If you have the ability, and/or the silvertongue for it - You lead them somewhere dangerous and kill them - Taking their money.

That doesn't 'immerse' them in shit by killing them for their money by taking OOC advantage of them.

This happened with my first PC.


I'll go out of my way to help a newbie any time I feel it's needed.  If I'm unsure if it is needed I'll OOC and ask if they're new to the game / need to know where to get something spefic / need to know how to make money / want a complete guided tour of the city.
Even the most flimsy of IC justifications is enough for me.  My mass murdering sociopath might be bored of eating beetle meat and want something else.  I may have been going there anyway.  I may want to recruit them / sell them stuff. 
The first time you meet a newb IG, give them a break.  If you're very very nice OOC, you may OOC to tell them that next time your pc may not be so generous...

[Is Friday]

I was playing a <mistrusted type of person> not too long ago when a newbie came up to <mistrusted place in a certain quarter>. This person was using 'say' to ask why he couldn't pick up his pack anymore. I figured he just didn't know that you can only have so many objects in your hand at any given time, per your agility. So my PC tried helping him out, claiming that he was "cursed", and that my PC would cure him. So my PC charged him a lot of sid, and "cured" him of this ailment. I made sure that my PC told him "go ahead and tell the folks in the Gaj who cured you" so that the gravity of his agreeing to <cure> would have a meaningful impact. I figured if there was any group of population that would convince him of "the horror", it would be them. So apparently he did, because then the entire Gaj population (including this PC) were livid and further mistrusting of <mistrusted type of person>.

I definitely feel it was a borderline situation, but I think I made the right decision. I hope that player decided to stick around. And if he/she didn't, then we're probably better off--you get screwed left and right in Zalanthas all the time. The best time to expose people to that reality is right away in an IC context.

edit: cleaned it up some.

[a strange shadow]

As a side note, this thread is making me realize how completely divisive our current roleplay standards are.

This seems like an interesting point, but I'm not certain what you mean.

Everybody hates everybody. Nobody's supposed to meaningfully interact in a potentially positive (character benefiting) manner, or they're playing badly. This isn't actually the case according to our documentation, but it seems to be the current mentality of the playerbase.

[Salt Merchant]

I always get a laugh out of it when a veteran player handling a powerful character dresses the character up as a noob, lets himself be led away, then kicks the snot out of the would-be newbie killer in his own apartment.

[Marshmellow]

I've done similarly, but didn't really let myself get dragged off.    I just had those as my character's "lazy clothes" for when he was just hanging out and didn't want to be wearing his armor.  It was silly how many people just assumed my character was just some schlub when I could have killed most of them before they could react.

I laughed...

...a lot.

[Kronus]

Everybody hates everybody. Nobody's supposed to meaningfully interact in a potentially positive (character benefiting) manner, or they're playing badly. This isn't actually the case according to our documentation, but it seems to be the current mentality of the playerbase.

For better or for worse, the talking heads of the GDB do not represent an accurate cross-section of the people playing the game.  In game you'll find plenty of people helping one another out, being courteous and, if not generous, at least respectful and decent to one another.  The GDB sometimes likes to howl from the trees and fling feces and beat their chests in a display of aggression, which is understood by veterans to be in good fun and 'arr, grr, Zalanthas harsh!', but come to think of it might be another aspect of giving new, interested players the wrong first impression.

[Barzalene]

As a side note, this thread is making me realize how completely divisive our current roleplay standards are.

This seems like an interesting point, but I'm not certain what you mean.

Everybody hates everybody. Nobody's supposed to meaningfully interact in a potentially positive (character benefiting) manner, or they're playing badly. This isn't actually the case according to our documentation, but it seems to be the current mentality of the playerbase.

I agree with you.

Oddly however, there are a great many players who in game are an absolutely joy to interact with. Some will fuck you over, fuck you up, and some will support you or fight you or become absolutely tangibly real. It's a shame that's not more obvious from reading the boards.

Most people will not play fuck the newbie. There are a few though that can't think in three dimensions and they think that's all that harsh is. But yeah, you make a really good point. I wish I were responding more intelligently. I'm just not getting it together. Someone else will say it more eloquently I hope.