Picking on New Players, Fair or Unfair?

[Shepard]

I don't think it is fair, but it happens, and players learn.

My first few characters will killed in semi bad form ways. I had someone make me follow them down a well, they could climb, I couldn't. I had someone make me follow them into the wild, them with a mount, me without. I had someone lure me into a lawless area, kill me. I had someone....

Above lesson learned, don't follow people... DONT TRUST ANYONE!

Essentially, what I am getting at. Is that I've been killed in MANY stupid ways over the years, and what happens is that I learn. I was new, and it sucked, but I made another character and just didn't do it again.

So... In the end. No it's not really fair, BUT, if it happens, it happens. The ones that quit from something like this are just going to quit eventually when they have an upsetting death. In the end, the people who look at deaths as lessons, are the players whom are going to stick around...

Just my thoughts.

[Qzzrbl]

I don't think it is fair, but it happens, and players learn.

My first few characters will killed in semi bad form ways. I had someone make me follow them down a well, they could climb, I couldn't. I had someone make me follow them into the wild, them with a mount, me without. I had someone lure me into a lawless area, kill me. I had someone....

Above lesson learned, don't follow people... DONT TRUST ANYONE!

Essentially, what I am getting at. Is that I've been killed in MANY stupid ways over the years, and what happens is that I learn. I was new, and it sucked, but I made another character and just didn't do it again.

So... In the end. No it's not really fair, BUT, if it happens, it happens. The ones that quit from something like this are just going to quit eventually when they have an upsetting death. In the end, the people who look at deaths as lessons, are the players whom are going to stick around...

Just my thoughts.

Pretty good way to put it.

[Ami]

My biggest argument here is not whether it is fair or unfair but...


How can you tell if they are new?

[Marauder Moe]

We can tell usually.

Some giveaways:
*Failing to use talk or tell instead of say
*Lack of targeting in emotes
*Lack of targeting when trying to sit
*4-line mdescs
*Mdescs where almost every sentence begins with he/she/his/her
*Extended disconnecting in taverns or quit rooms
*Asking for directions within the city
*Emotes about reading the message board
*A desire to hunt rats
*A vague, non-local background that is eagerly relayed
*Repeatedly walking in and out of a room/area with no emotes (but maybe a few looks)
*Use of socials outnumbering emotes
*General behavior cues like naivety and failing to acknowledge documented prejudices (towards elves, halfbreeds, gemmers, etc)
*Use of the following words: clan, warrior, ranger, burglar, pickpocket, guild (lowercase 'g'), town

Note: these aren't all necessarily bad behaviors, just indicators.

[Bilanthri]

I met a character who told me within the first minute that he knew just where to stick a blade, then proceeded to hide in a tavern and perform all sorts of emotes while hidden, including dancing on the bar.

Pretty sure he was a new player. 

[Ami]

I still make some terrible errors even after nearly 3 years. haha.

[Marshmellow]

Some giveaways:
( snip )
*Failing to use talk or tell instead of say
( snip )

LOL!  I rarely use 'tell'.  This one made me laugh. 

[hyzhenhok]

I usually use say and indicate the target in the command emote. To do the same with tell, you have to type their keyword twice.

say (about to stab ~you) Die!
vs
tell you (about to stab !you) Die!

[Dakota]

Some giveaways:
( snip )
*Failing to use talk or tell instead of say
( snip )

LOL!  I rarely use 'tell'.  This one made me laugh. 

heh but its true. so so true. was how everyone in the Gaj found out I was a n00b.

[MeTekillot]

And the failure to use commas when commas are necessary. But it seems a growing trend not to use punctuation at all. In dwarves, at least. Wait, are we back to dwarves on the hate chart yet?

[janeshephard]

I completely break character when dealing with new players. It would be better to give them a friendly OOC lecture about whatever they should know and let them chew on that instead of trying for an uneasy mix of rp and education.

Yeah, I absolutely break character with noobs. 

I noticed players with power tend to have realistic reasons tor not wtfpwning everyone they meet. I think it is entirely possible to stay in character and help noobs out in most instances.

Maybe this is why we cannot roll gith and halflings

[Celest]

As a new player: Yes and no. If you're picking on them specifically because they're a newplayer by trying to take advantage of their lack of knowledge about code that should be common knowledge, then it's a no-no in my opinion. You're using OOC information that is not compatible with any IC knowledge your character could have. Taking advantage of a new player's general naivete, however, is acceptable.

For example:

My first few characters will killed in semi bad form ways. I had someone make me follow them down a well, they could climb, I couldn't.

If by follow you mean the follow code then that, to me, is a pretty huge abuse of code and would be bad behavior toward anyone, especially toward newbies. If you were to get them to climb down the well on their own, such as by telling them that they would have no problem climbing down after and that there were cool things down there, then I would think it's acceptable. If they fall it's because they made a bad IC decision. Using the follow code to -force- someone down the well just seems very twinkish. It's taking advantage of their lack of OOC knowledge about the follow code rather than the character's lack of judgment.

[Lizzie]

If you're new, how would you know that someone used the follow code to force you down somewhere, unless they took advantage of the fact that you -did- fall, and kill you for it... sometimes, the leader missteps. Takes a wrong turn. Player error. It happens. Their -character- didn't plan or intend on dropping your character down a hole. But that's what happened so they RP around it.

[Kryos]

Example of what I'd call both poor ooc and ic form was my first character death:

Walking around the grass, 10 hours in, a mul rides in on a war beetle, /looks at me, then kills me in two swings.  No talk, no emotes, no rp.  Just /look /kill back to back.  Someone with that much kama, even with a spec app, should know better.  Does nothing to promote the game itself or enjoyment in harsh rp.

How it could have been done better:

Rob my poor naive self of all my water and food, maybe weapons if I had any and then send me off.  My character suffers, but I learn and probably even enjoy the conflict as I try to plot revenge.

How it can be done in general:

Rather then exploiting code to get an advantage or kill, do what you're supposed to do with any character, newbie or not.  Screw them over with RP.  Use them, abuse them, sacrifice them for your greater good.  This will teach them the harshness of the game world and hopefully, promote their interest in continuing, new or old. 

[najdorf]

When i first joined, i enjoyed the game much more when my characters were harressed and pushed, but not killed. So i try to play with newbies in a similar manner.

[Lizzie]

When i first joined, i enjoyed the game much more when my characters were harressed and pushed, but not killed. So i try to play with newbies in a similar manner.

The same, whenever possible/practical.

[Goldberry]

You can see cues as to whether a person is "playing along" with you or not.  If their emotes are clipping along, they are probably taking things in and learning.  If you're the only one communicating or their input is riddled with coded errors, they're probably too over-whelmed or frazzled to be gaining anything positive from a hardcore roleplay experience.  Someone who is experienced with MUDs is going to have a different first day in Zalanthas than someone who is trying to get used to everything at once.  For the latter, little or nothing is going to be gained from an exceedingly harsh interaction.  They already have a full plate.

There are some amazing, imaginative writers that could bring a lot to the game once they find their comfort zone.  For those folks, the first week or so will determine if they become a long-term player or not.

For the obviously green, I support being as compassionate as possible without breaking character.  Once the newbie indicators disappear, a little tough love is perfectly in order.

[Gunnerblaster]

For the obviously green, I support being as compassionate as possible without breaking character.  Once the newbie indicators disappear, a little tough love is perfectly in order.

Offering you a faint smirk as he drags the blade of his serrated longknife across your throat, the weathered, one-eyed man says, in southern-accented sirishish,
   "I really feel like you'en I are really gettin' something out've this... You learn the way've the Known and I, well... Heh."

WELCOME TO ARMAGEDDON!

[Fredd]

wait wait.....

When the heck is this game ever easy? Seriusly. Even the best of us die, alot. Unless we get lucky enough to get to the point that our pc's are very very hard to kill. (like "i'm going to go kill that anakore bare handed" strong)

But as it goes. treat people you know are noob like any other pc. End of story. Answer questions if needed, but if you would normally mug them, mug them. so on.

[Marshmellow]

There is a difference between fair on an IC level and fair on an OOC level.  The game should be fair OOCly but unfair ICly.

[Clavis]

Why result to killing when it's so much better to torment them while helping them figure out the game?
Well unless your in Allanak and then I guess you should just kill them, barbarians!
Even then I think it's much better to rob newbies blind, make them look over their shoulders every time the log in and nearly wet themselves when you suddenly show up...

I rather enjoy having a person just completely mess up my charrie until I get the hang of a game then either kill me or continue. it adds spice and I learn. toss in an ooc like pointing to the emoting help file and then run with it the rest you either get or you don't until much later.

[Sephiroto]

I think it's much better to rob newbies blind, make them look over their shoulders every time the log in and nearly wet themselves when you suddenly show up...

I'll sign in off on the latter part of that.  The trick is to teach them a very valuable lesson without rendering the PC powerless to the point that they want to give up and quit Arm.

[Erythil]

I know two people who quit playing ARM because their newbie character was raped within 10 hours of creation.


Just sayin'...

[Qzzrbl]

I know two people who quit playing ARM because their newbie character was raped within 10 hours of creation.


Just sayin'...

I think I had at least three characters WTFpwned within ten hours of finding this game....

[Cindy42]

i love armageddon. i feel ashamed of my ancient and recent noob mistakes alike.

first character: allanak: asked the NPC-filled tavern for work: went outside after waiting a few minutes; it was a sandstorm you couldn't see in; someone frowned at me in the storm and someone (maybe same person) sent me a Way-thing (didn't even know about the Way at that point) saying that i should have waited for someone to reply. i quit out of the game and didn't try again for three months. then i spent the next half-year after that getting my newbie butt kicked and dying constantly, trying to skillmax so i could survive, without skillmaxing too much, about half and half, which now i think, for the type of characters i play, is too much;

skip forward to present day, its been maybe two or three years since that first day i gave some immortal and/or regular player a headache, and i just love this game. i've been anticipating a thing tonight on armageddon with my character that i've been waiting for awhile. i'm not much better at staying alive without assistance, but i've honed the art of mastering certain personalities and acting them like they're my own. i love acting.

honestly, the first thing that i learned proper was to trust no one IG. i act casual but watch my back and i don't do stupid things, anymore. i don't sleep in common rooms anymore, just rest. i even tend to avoid PCs in civilized towns if i look in one direction and see them far away; but i do roleplay proper in taverns, where there is mild to moderate safety in numbers. i mean, in real life, would you go up to a stranger you didn't know if you and they were the only people in the desert for miles and you weren't lost? in a lawless world? i got the idea in my head quick, before i got screwed over by anyone, though i've been forced to follow people who brandish knives at me and have had everything stolen off my person before. who hasn't? the most paranoid person is going to get screwed with. i've never followed anyone to a lawless area of my own free will.

everything else was a steep learning curve for me. i'm still not sure at how to survive for myself without assistance from a clan or skillmaxing to some extent, which makes me feel bad. i don't differentiate between new players and veterans, though one time a guy who was a veteran made a mistake and i said two OOC teaching sentences and it made me feel stupid later when he proved through good use of code that he wasn't. that was the only time.

i think its a bad idea to break personality to be nicer to an obvious newbie unless you are yourself a nice person; actually, i don't see a problem with playing a nice person in this game, as long as your upbringing is reflected in you and it doesn't seem like you come straight from prep school. i believe it would be realistic ( i know some people don't think so) for naturally nice people to be born in zalanthas, and to have mild to extreme events or upbringings in their lives that dull that edge at least bit to keep the atmosphere going. it would be a challenging mind to fit into.