Lowest of the low

[lordcooper]

I'm curious as to what demographic would be considered the least worthy of the fluid it takes to spit on.

From a human perspective, I'd go for halfbreeds myself.  Elves (generally) have a tribe to back them up, half giants are amusing and easily manipulated, dwarves are little hardasses who could easily save your life, 'gickers are twisted baby eaters who nevertheless can be useful at times and rinthi may be scum, but at least thy're human scum.  Breeds as a whole bring nothing to the table for your average selfish human and belong nowhere.

Opinions?

[manipura]

>boos loudly

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I once made a half-elf 'Rinther with Tuluki parentage. He didn't last long.

It was awesome.

[brytta.leofa]

Racially, half-elves.

Half-elves are uncomfortable.  They are not people, but you know, in your head, that they're part person.  That doesn't make any real sense to your xenophobic, racially prejudiced brain.  You're kind of surprised that it even works; if you're agriculturally savvy, you're pretty sure that all half-elves are sterile.

Half-elves look like elves, except once a she-breed looked at you and you caught a glimpse of what the human mum must have looked like, and for just an instant--GAH!--you were turned on.  This made you feel dirty and angry; you growled at her and reached over and knocked her mug of ale off the bar.

You don't really like to see a half-elf, much less talk to it.  In your softer moments you know that it's kind of sad, but you really wish it would just go away and quit being disgusting.  Your player, if he admits it, may feel much the same discomfort about mentally retarded humans.

[Scarecrow]

I prefer to spit as a breed on racist humans.
So there. 

[Ampere]

Retards make me horny, so I spill their juice.

...?

[brytta.leofa]

I prefer to spit as a breed on racist humans.
So there. 

They outnumber you.  Non-racist humans probably don't; you'd be better off spittin' on them.

[Reiloth]

Racially, half-elves (Or they should be)

Magickally, pretty much anything, but i'd assume Nilazi are on the lowest of the low. They're not only feared by mundanes the whole world over, but pretty much every Magicker in existence will try to eliminate them.

And, of course, Mindbenders.

[number13]

In the north, gikers are certainly at the bottom of the cesspit.  After all, you might suffer a half-elf breathing.

In the south, ungemmed gikers and defilers would be at the bottom.  Whether one hates gemmers or half-breeds more is then probably a function of individual taste and experience.

[jriley]

I like this thread.  +1

[Boba Zach]

I'll go with the majority and say half-breeds.  I feel that while magickers are scored they are also feared.  A random commoner is much more likely to spit on a half-breed than a gemmed magicker.

[lordcooper]

I have another question.

Seeing as magickers are most definitely aberrations, would it be realistic for mundanes to view them as (practically?) being a different race?

[BleakOne]

As far as lowest of the low goes, I think you can go far lower than half-breeds, they're just the 'lowest' that are allowed to exist by the powers-that-be in the cities. Ungemmed magickers, defilers, mindbenders, desert elves of a hostile tribe, ect. They're lower since you want to kill them, not just abuse them.

[Drayab]

In Tuluk, magickers are much lower than breeds. Magickers are killed on sight! They're not even people. Breeds at least are citizens that the vast majority refer to as 'he' and 'she'.

Here's a funny question. Which is lower, a citizen breed or a foreigner human? Does it depend on if you live in Allanak or Tuluk?

[perfecto]

foreigner for sure..

as for the LOWEST.. of the low..

I'm going gith..

Except for one really odd group of d-elves everyone hates gith.. they're all hunched over and ugly as shit.. they stink to high hell and wouldn't hesitate to spear you if they spotted you. (regardless of who you are)

I'm so glad they aren't walking around Red Storm anymore.. that was just uncomfortable as all get-out.

[boog]

A certain kicked dog collective group. Thing.

[brytta.leofa]

Here's a funny question. Which is lower, a citizen breed or a foreigner human? Does it depend on if you live in Allanak or Tuluk?

If you are mortally wounded and need someone to deliver the Crown of Tol-Oopa to your King's templars?  Might as well chance the half-elf; I mean, you know the foreigner is disloyal.

If you're looking for love?  The foreigner is exotic and interesting; the half-elf is just gross.

[brytta.leofa]

I'm going gith..

I'm not sure that the average city-dweller understands gith to be more than very dangerous, wily animals.  Baboon troups.

[BleakOne]

Do they have the big shiny baboon butts?

[Wolfsong]

Baboons that can talk, wear armor and wield weapons.

[Ampere]

Baboons that can talk, wear armor and wield weapons.

And are probably more literate than any other species.

[BleakOne]

Gith are heavily armed, poo-covered monkey scholars.

[Dakota]

from my experience w/ RP in my short time in Arm..

Would say it's gickers or really geographically based. Nak's in Tuluk. Tuluki's in Nak. Then gickers everywhere. I've found / seen more scenes with racism for those or even elves than with breeds.

[Qzzrbl]

'Rinthi breed gemmmer.

[lordcooper]

'Rinthi breed gemmmer.

I meet your bid and raise you a 'Rinthi breed defiler living in Tuluk.  Who also happens to be a slave in the Byn AND has a Sc't'ish' accent.

[Qzzrbl]

'Rinthi breed gemmmer.

I meet your bid and raise you a 'Rinthi breed defiler living in Tuluk.  Who also happens to be a slave in the Byn AND has a Sc't'ish' accent.

Who's also a mutant.

[Spoon]

from my experience w/ RP in my short time in Arm..

Would say it's gickers or really geographically based. Nak's in Tuluk. Tuluki's in Nak. Then gickers everywhere. I've found / seen more scenes with racism for those or even elves than with breeds.

I think it slips people's mind sometimes. You know, they're only half elf...

That's actually what makes them pond scum. Humans should be more angry about the fact that they're half-human.

[Barzalene]

I think it slips people's mind sometimes. You know, they're only half elf...

That's actually what makes them pond scum. Humans should be more angry about the fact that they're half-human.

That's exactly what's so disturbing. ewwww.

[Nahara]

'Rinthi breed gemmmer.

I meet your bid and raise you a 'Rinthi breed defiler living in Tuluk.  Who also happens to be a slave in the Byn AND has a Sc't'ish' accent.

Who's also a mutant.

Who appears otherwise to be an elf, and rides a gwoshi.

[Qzzrbl]

'Rinthi breed gemmmer.

I meet your bid and raise you a 'Rinthi breed defiler living in Tuluk.  Who also happens to be a slave in the Byn AND has a Sc't'ish' accent.

Who's also a mutant.

Who appears otherwise to be an elf, and rides a gwoshi.

Daaaaaaamn.

O:

[Nahara]

... erm. I pressed the quote button? /double post.

[Nahara]

Code Select Expand


Byn Training Yard, Tuluk
This place stinks of dung. It's also full of mercenaries, blood, and sweat. The ground is muddy, at
least you hope that's what it is.
There is a thin film of ash here.
The hunch-backed, scaly elf is here, riding a gwoshi.
- She is glowing.

> look scaly

This half-gith is a brilliant purple, brighter than any seen in nature. Her eyes are equally strange.
Rather than a nose she has a hooked beak-like projection resembling that of a shik. One of her ears is
perfectly round and human-like while the other resembles a longknife in length and sharpness. A third,
withered arm hangs limply under her right armpit. Her spine twists her into a hunchbacked posture.
Perversely, her body is otherwise shapely, bearing a slender waist, wide hips, long legs, and a bouncy,
curvaceous chest just short of impressive enough to blame for the deformation of her spine.
A repugnant odor clings to her.
She is glowing.

The hunch-backed, scaly half-breed is wearing:
<neck> A smelly slave collar
<about body> A smelly Byn aba
<elsewhere> A lot of smelly gwoshi leather and silk

Flourishing an irrelevant three-line command emote, the hunch-backed, scaly half-breed says, in Rinthi-accented
sirihish:
"oi lass, y' wan'in' t' spar 'an kan' la'e"


[Malifaxis]

Whatever I am playing is the worst treated PC of all time.

All time.

[Marauder Moe]

From a human perspective, it really seems like elves are far less regarded than half-elves  Half-elves are less xenophobic, less inclined towards thievery, and they look a little less alien than pure elves.  It also seems like they're much more likely to be employed or enslaved by humans.

So, racially I'm going to have to go with elf.

[X-D]

From a human perspective I would have to go half-elf.
From an elf perspective I would have to go half-elf.

Historicly Moe, Mongrels are treated far worse.

As was explained above, Yes, elves are bad, but Oh, Ugh, somebody mated with one!, even worse, that one might mate with a human, now you get a breed that looks human, YOU might bed one without knowing...THE HORROR!

My dwarves think muls are just above half-elves, they would be below cept they cannot breed. So Half-elves are worse, combining the worst of both parent races in my dwarves opinions.

[Marauder Moe]

Historicly Moe, Mongrels are treated far worse.

Historically, on Earth, perhaps.

However, I just don't see it that way in Zalanthas.

[Spoon]

This is my view on it, Moe, in the context of this thread and the OP.

If a human really, really hates elves because they're a race of thieving scumbags, they'll surely find half-elves even more disgusting. It's not a matter of treating elves better than half-elves. On the disgusting filth o' meter, half-elves are a that one notch lower, because the more you hate elves, the more offended you will be by half-elves.

That and mutants, as they're the same deal but raped by MAGICK! (and most commoners believe all magickers have hideous mutations)

[brytta.leofa]

So, racially I'm going to have to go with elf.

I think this should be wrong but is how things tend to fall out in practice.

Elves tend to be seen as criminal parasites, and that's probably wrong.  Most NPC elves aren't gonna be actively criminal...light-fingered, maybe, but not making a living as pickpockets or burglars.  Not when they're 40% of the population or whatever.

[X-D]

least you corrected my spelling, But we will have to differ otherwise, Zalanthus people are documented racists, going well beyond what most of earth history has....well, aside from maybe germany WWII.

[Marauder Moe]

It's not just PC behavior, though.  Look at the NPCs.

For Krath's sake, there's a half-elf working at the Trader's Inn, and meanwhile elves aren't even allowed inside!

For every employed elf NPC, there have to be at least 10 employed half-elves.  Given that population-wise elves outnumber half-elves by a huge margin, that seems very significant to me.

[Nahara]

Half-elves are more suitable to being employed by someone outside their family than elves, because half-elves don't generally have much of a family, and are not absolutely guaranteed to put its interests before their employer. For one.

I'd say they're more employable as a result of being less accepted, in fact. Elves have each other and don't have the same need for employment, in theory. Breeds have this drive for acceptance that it is much easier to manipulate them with than most elven traits.

[Marauder Moe]

I really don't think it's for lack of applicants that more elves don't get hired.  Plenty of city elves (like most city dwellers) would jump at the chance for a steady stream of coin (or the chance to loot the place clean and then dash off to the 'rinth).

[Nahara]

True. They're more likely to be congratulated for looting the place, though.

[brytta.leofa]

It's not just PC behavior, though.  Look at the NPCs.

For Krath's sake, there's a half-elf working at the Trader's Inn, and meanwhile elves aren't even allowed inside!

Thaaat...is a good point.

[boog]

It's not just PC behavior, though.  Look at the NPCs.

For Krath's sake, there's a half-elf working at the Trader's Inn, and meanwhile elves aren't even allowed inside!

Thaaat...is a good point.

Yeah. Moe's winning this argument, for sure.

And really, I think it'd be the half-elf who looks pretty human, sleeping with a human, them deciding to become mates, until she tells him (or vice versa) they s/he is in fact, a breed. Imagine the horrorrrrr.

[X-D]

I do not see how that is a good point, Full elves are known to have sticky fingers, who the hell is going to hire them in a tavern, and it makes sense to keep them out of the traders, nobles and GMH family have lots of pretty nicknacks that a celf could not stop from trying to get. Meanwhile, Breeds might be icky and low, but they are not known for theft, also, Nobles LIKE the lowest of the low to serve them, it makes them feel that much higher on the social ladder.

[Marauder Moe]

It seems to me that "elves steal shit" is an argument for them being regarded below half-elves, not one against.

Also, frankly, you've got the lowest of the low servant thing completely backwards.  The higher the status of your servants, the higher your own status.

[Marauder Moe]

To clarify some more:

It's certainly not that being half-human makes a half-elf better than an elf.  The mingled blood is absolutely a strike against half-elves.  However, the key thing is that half-elves are not elves.  They lack many of the undesirable aspects of elves.  This is why I think they rank better.

We can put it in a side by side list form too:

Code Select Expand


Elf         | Half-elf
-------------------------
Not human   | Not human
Thievery    | Mixed blood
Prideful    | Bipolar
Xenophobic  |
Tribal      |


It just seems to me that there are more reasons to dislike elves than half-elves.

[Nahara]

Yeah, elves have more readily apparent to pick from, and every girl I've ever crushed on is bipolar (I have no damn clue why), so I have a hard time hating someone for that or even playing characters who hate someone for that. I guess that's another good reason for me to play breeds: I don't have to bother trying.

What amuses me is when I play a half-elf who looks down the most on apparent non-breed breed-lovers for varying reasons.

[X-D]

Actually, I could see breed lovers being below breeds. EEWWWW.

[Nahara]

Aye, at least breeds were born that way. 

[HavokBlue]

My perspective:

To a human, elves are probably worse than breeds. To an elf, humans are worse than breeds. However, breeds themselves probably get bashed more because the hatred towards them is coming from two different groups, while, for example, the hate elves get comes primarily from humans.

On a side note, why do dwarves dislike half-elves? It's not like it's a half-elf, half-dwarf mutant or whatever.

[Nahara]

I daresay a dwarf's internal consistency and a half-elf's internal paradox could leave them a bit alien to each other.

[BleakOne]

Yeah, I think half-elves are caught in the crossfire, even though each side probably considers full-blood elves (or humans, from the other side of the fence) worse.

[Marauder Moe]

Actually I think from the elven perspective, half-elves are worse than humans.

Elves already have contempt for anyone not in their tribe.

In addition, though, elves disdain the human inability to run, use of mounts, stupidity/gullibility, lack of true loyalty, etc.  From the elven perspective, half-elves share all those traits, but there's also the revulsion from the mixed blood aspect and the unstable mentality.

[Potaje]

Personally I would think in a world of valued water, spitting on each other might be a sign of friendship. I then would think, not being worth spitting on would be more an insult.

[Scarecrow]

Hmm, I find the half-elves are icky eww horror argument doesn't always apply. I usually play half-elves, and almost all of them got plenty of tail, and it was all human females lovin some breed. Once you go breed, for humans you got no need. 

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If I were playing a breed, a trend like that would disturb me.

[HTX]

I usually play half-elves, and almost all of them got plenty of tail, and it was all human females lovin some breed. Once you go breed, for humans you got no need. 

I bet the relationship was highly secret, though.

I could understand why a PC would do such a thing - think of all the plots and conflict which could stem from such a taboo relationship - but PCs don't tend to be the statistical norm. Most Zalanthians probably would be absolutely appalled at the thought of a breed-human relationship.

[Gimfalisette]

If I were playing a breed, a trend like that would disturb me.

This is why I no longer play anything but mundane humans. It created way too much cognitive dissonance for me to try to wrap my characters' minds around constantly being sexually pursued when they knew they shouldn't be, and I knew they shouldn't be.

I don't know why it took me literally years to figure out, but I have finally learned that in ARM, if you want your PC to be socially/sexually rejected the way they should be according to the documentation, you have to vigorously enforce that yourself through your own roleplay. Relying on the playerbase as a whole to stick to the docs when it comes to sex is completely futile.

[Aaron Goulet]

This is why I no longer play anything but mundane humans. It created way too much cognitive dissonance for me to try to wrap my characters' minds around constantly being sexually pursued when they knew they shouldn't be, and I knew they shouldn't be.

I wish I could say that I'm surprised by this, but I'm not.  Some of my male half-elves had human women who were enamored with them too, so gender isn't the issue.  I wonder why this is?

(Oh, and for the record, when I say "I'd hit that" regarding a half-elf, I always mean it in the most literal sense.)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Assuming that one is playing a breed right, I'd be surprised if the breed themselves didn't feel disturbed about something like that. Breeds, according to the docs, are an oxymoron unto themselves. They want to be accepted, but when they are, they think something is wrong and they often fuck it all up. This is something that might be hard to play (and I have no experience even trying). But unless the human or elf who was in love with the breed could deal with the sudden mood swings, I'd suspect that a relationship wouldn't last long at all.

[Scarecrow]

Assuming that one is playing a breed right, I'd be surprised if the breed themselves didn't feel disturbed about something like that. Breeds, according to the docs, are an oxymoron unto themselves. They want to be accepted, but when they are, they think something is wrong and they often fuck it all up. This is something that might be hard to play (and I have no experience even trying). But unless the human or elf who was in love with the breed could deal with the sudden mood swings, I'd suspect that a relationship wouldn't last long at all.

That's right, they rarely do. The independance/attachment complex of the half-elf makes for rocky and perilous grounds. Also yes, almost all of these relationships were very secret. Mostly because no respecting human wanted to be known as a "breed lover". As for the half-elves mindset, I prefer to think of it as the natural way a half-elf would deal with a relationship, fiercely attach themselves with much passion and devotion, then find themselves severing away and isolating themselves out of the blue, feeling uncomfortable being so close and accepted by someone. Then the cycle would repeat, they find another person or go back to the previous, become passionate and devoted, then break away all over again. Sometimes this doesn't happen and the half-elf stays true. To explain this, I see it as his mate become part of his own conflicted nature, wanting to take her away with him to be independent with her, and isolate himself and the mate from the rest of society. Up-down seesaw but I don't mind because it makes for interesting rp.

Edit: P.S also when the break-up phase occurs, its not so much the half-elf walks up and says "we're over" but he grows distant and quiet, almost depressive. It's not love em and leave em, but love em and get terrified.

[Armaddict]

Edit: P.S also when the break-up phase occurs, its not so much the half-elf walks up and says "we're over" but he grows distant and quiet, almost depressive. It's not love em and leave em, but love em and get terrified.

One of the better played half-elves I saw wouldn't even role-play that bit out.  They'd just randomly decide they didn't fit, disappear, find a new group of friends to fit in with then leave, and occasionally pop in on the old ones.  It's something that's hard to pull off where you can't really find 'separate' segregated crowds within one city, so I can't expect it all over...but it was actually pretty cool.

[hyzhenhok]

My perspective:

To a human, elves are probably worse than breeds. To an elf, humans are worse than breeds. However, breeds themselves probably get bashed more because the hatred towards them is coming from two different groups, while, for example, the hate elves get comes primarily from humans.

On a side note, why do dwarves dislike half-elves? It's not like it's a half-elf, half-dwarf mutant or whatever.

Dwarves are just as racist; it's just that they do things with their focus in mind. Mr. Stump doesn't hate elves just because they're thieves; he simply thinks they're useless at best and dangerous at worst when it comes to his focus. The biggest racism of a dwarf is when he decides to take one course of action over another on account of the race of another party.

Now, dwarves are perfectly capable of being racist here; they don't want to deal with half elves because they're useless, risky, unreliable, whatever. And why are they those things? Well, they're a half-breed. Or whatever.

If a dwarf's focus requires them to use elves or even befriend elves, though, you might see exceptions. A dwarf who has befriended a half-elf who he can make use of might think differently. Dwarves are probably the most flexible when it comes to race relations, because the specific demands of the Focus come before the generic societal prejudices. Of course, a dwarf who buddies up with sharps and breeds no doubt will encounter problems with humans down the road, but that just makes things even more fun and complicated.

[Spoon]

At the risk of quoting myself earlier in the thread, a human who hates elves will hate half-elves all the more. This makes them lowest of the low in human society.

To address employment, everyone knows elves make terrible slaves. Their psyche makes them only ever wish to work for themselves/their tribe, so this is easily extended to most employment.

Half-elves make good slaves. They also make good workers because they're suck ups. They also don't have a constant urge to take from others. They infact have a constant urge to impress others and fit in.

[Qzzrbl]

So half-elves being good slaves, good workers, and suck-ups make them lower than dirty, thieving, untameable elves?

[lordcooper]

So half-elves being good slaves, good workers, and suck-ups make them lower than dirty, thieving, untameable elves?

I think Spoon is trying to say that it merely makes them more employable.  They probably won't run off with the days takings and may even be persuaded to act pleasant-ish.
Doesn't mean the emplyer likes them.

[Qzzrbl]

So half-elves being good slaves, good workers, and suck-ups make them lower than dirty, thieving, untameable elves?

I think Spoon is trying to say that it merely makes them more employable.  They probably won't run off with the days takings and may even be persuaded to act pleasant-ish.
Doesn't mean the emplyer likes them.

True, but it certainly -does- mean the employer likes them more than full-blooded elves.

You see?

[lordcooper]

So half-elves being good slaves, good workers, and suck-ups make them lower than dirty, thieving, untameable elves?

I think Spoon is trying to say that it merely makes them more employable.  They probably won't run off with the days takings and may even be persuaded to act pleasant-ish.
Doesn't mean the emplyer likes them.

True, but it certainly -does- mean the employer likes them more than full-blooded elves.

You see?

Crap example, but I'm tired.

Say Hitler had been a florist.  Stalin (his boss for some reason) puts a gun to his head and says that he has to give a job to one of the next two people to come in.  This keeps things nice and equal, as everyone know you shouldn't judge people on skill and their aptitude for a job.  The next two people to walk in are a black guy and a jew.  Hitler dislikes both, the jew most of all.  However, the black guy is a convicted flower thief.  If Hitler was relying upon the continued success of the florists for his wellbeing, I truly think that in this scenario he may well have given the job to the jew.  At least until a 'real' human came along.

Note: I'm not a Nazi, this post is to be considered either a poor attempt at satire or a damn good idea for a sitcom.

[Qzzrbl]

So half-elves being good slaves, good workers, and suck-ups make them lower than dirty, thieving, untameable elves?

I think Spoon is trying to say that it merely makes them more employable.  They probably won't run off with the days takings and may even be persuaded to act pleasant-ish.
Doesn't mean the emplyer likes them.

True, but it certainly -does- mean the employer likes them more than full-blooded elves.

You see?

Crap example, but I'm tired.

Say Hitler had been a florist.  Stalin (his boss for some reason) puts a gun to his head and says that he has to give a job to one of the next two people to come in.  This keeps things nice and equal, as everyone know you shouldn't judge people on skill and their aptitude for a job.  The next two people to walk in are a black guy and a jew.  Hitler dislikes both, the jew most of all.  However, the black guy is a convicted flower thief.  If Hitler was relying upon the continued success of the florists for his wellbeing, I truly think that in this scenario he may well have given the job to the jew.  At least until a 'real' human came along.

Note: I'm not a Nazi, this post is to be considered either a poor attempt at satire or a damn good idea for a sitcom.

Hah!

I got a chuckle out of it, for what it's worth...

Either way though... I'd say elves are still hated more.

Mostly because they're usually scandalous, useless assholes towards anyone not in their tribe.... I mean, they are known for trying to screw anyone they can out of a deal (while making it look like a bargain)....

Perhaps we can discuss this a bit more in-depth after you get some sleep.

[X-D]

Um, I'd like to point out, the topic (look above)
And the OP.

I'm curious as to what demographic would be considered the least worthy of the fluid it takes to spit on.

This has little to do with hatred, if that was the question then the answer is simple, The most hated being in the game is a sorcerer, with bender running a close second, it states so in the docs. So nothing to talk about.

So, it is a question of Caste or social standing.

At which point, Breeds are far below pretty much anybody...on the average.

Also, I have hired many people IRL who I just could not stand. But they made money for me, and they did so better in some way then the people I liked yet did not hire.

Hiring somebody has nothing at all to do with how much you like them, ZERO, A business owner looks at the bottom line, hell, employees are simply numbers on paper anyway.

Also, keep in mind, an elf could actually be the best bartender in the world and more trustworthy then any other race...assuming the bar is owned by his tribe. A breed can never be fully trusted, by anybody.

[Dakota]

after reading through the history docs..

are/were their any famous breeds? who? what'd they do? did their accomplishments rise above the fact they were a breed?

[X-D]

Shatuka...only one I can think of, one who was mostly remembered because of her breedness. Well played breed, I measure most breeds today to her, and they all fall far short. Oh, and she was in Kurac, made sarge or higher.

Well, I can think of one other notable, Hawk.

Otherwise....nope, not many famous breeds.


(fixed name, thanks Venomz)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

SHATUKA, I think.

[Wolfsong]

At the risk of ... You know what, fuck it.

Here's how I see half-elves, this week:

Half-elves are hated more than elves not because of what they are but what they represent - it's the same reason that (oh fuck am I really going to go there? yes, yes I am) Henry has to kill Charles Bon in Absalom! Absalom! - half-elves are, unequivocally, the "nigger that's going to sleep with your sister" - and why in Light in August Joe Christmas is not just killed but castrated, too. In layman's terms - half-elves are hated because they represent the mixing of races, not because they are worse than either race in and of themselves. In fact, the fact that they're more employable than elves proves this - that, anyway, it's a different sort of racism entirely. Half-elves are mulattoes, and provided they look more human than elvish, that's okay - until, of course, the truth comes out. Hate them, yes, but you wouldn't necessarily shun them as you would an elf, either - not in the same way, anyway. Let them work in your kitchens and on your estates, because it is - I guess - an inclusive hate. You shun elves and they're dirty outsiders, but they have their own culture and society and they're basically alien to you, anyway. They don't care, they have their tribe. But half-elves? It's worse for them because they're under the illusion that they can be accepted by a culture or race and they cannot be - they're drawn in, treated better than most elves at first blush, but it's skin deep. Beneath that, there's vicious racism - even worse than with elves, but much more subtle, too. It's the difference between attacking someone on the street and beating them unconscious and taking someone back to your home, employing them in your household, and burning them with cigarette butts, telling them they're dirt, and dehumanizing them utterly under the guise of kindness.

Why are there no famous half-elves?

If a half-elf achieves fame, they are absorbed into the culture they most resemble - or, at least, the fact that they're a breed is typically glossed over: they become either elf or not elf - look at Langston Hughes, Nicolas Guillen, Barack Obama. They're all breeds, but at the same time they're not described as breeds at all, with the possible exception of Guillen (Cuba has a disproportionate population of breeds, so the race division there is less distinct) - they're elves, because they most resemble elves. In fact, they are what every elf should aspire to - they are the most intelligent, artistic, well-known and articulate elves around... and that's because they're half human. And they're still shunned by the humans who call them good elves.

[Malifaxis]

At the risk of ... You know what, fuck it.

Here's how I see half-elves, this week:

Half-elves are hated more than elves not because of what they are but what they represent - it's the same reason that (oh fuck am I really going to go there? yes, yes I am) Henry has to kill Charles Bon in Absalom! Absalom! - half-elves are, unequivocally, the "nigger that's going to sleep with your sister" - and why in Light in August Joe Christmas is not just killed but castrated, too. In layman's terms - half-elves are hated because they represent the mixing of races, not because they are worse than either race in and of themselves. In fact, the fact that they're more employable than elves proves this - that, anyway, it's a different sort of racism entirely. Half-elves are mulattoes, and provided they look more human than elvish, that's okay - until, of course, the truth comes out. Hate them, yes, but you wouldn't necessarily shun them as you would an elf, either - not in the same way, anyway. Let them work in your kitchens and on your estates, because it is - I guess - an inclusive hate. You shun elves and they're dirty outsiders, but they have their own culture and society and they're basically alien to you, anyway. They don't care, they have their tribe. But half-elves? It's worse for them because they're under the illusion that they can be accepted by a culture or race and they cannot be - they're drawn in, treated better than most elves at first blush, but it's skin deep. Beneath that, there's vicious racism - even worse than with elves, but much more subtle, too. It's the difference between attacking someone on the street and beating them unconscious and taking someone back to your home, employing them in your household, and burning them with cigarette butts, telling them they're dirt, and dehumanizing them utterly under the guise of kindness.

Why are there no famous half-elves?

If a half-elf achieves fame, they are absorbed into the culture they most resemble - or, at least, the fact that they're a breed is typically glossed over: they become either elf or not elf - look at Langston Hughes, Nicolas Guillen, Barack Obama. They're all breeds, but at the same time they're not described as breeds at all, with the possible exception of Guillen (Cuba has a disproportionate population of breeds, so the race division there is less distinct) - they're elves, because they most resemble elves. In fact, they are what every elf should aspire to - they are the most intelligent, artistic, well-known and articulate elves around... and that's because they're half human. And they're still shunned by the humans who call them good elves.

Jaster Sandeye.  Shatuka Iir'ijah.  Hawk.  There's a couple others.

There's one running around right now who's been famous forever, but no one knows it, because of how he plays it.  Awesome stuff.

Kudos to you, the guy who knows who he is.

[HavokBlue]

I think I know who you're talking about. We salute you, Mr. Inconspicuous Famous Half Breed Trash.

Anyways, I'd say that as far as race goes, opinions of the populace would perhaps vary amongst individuals, much like this thread.

[Wolfsong]

But they're not -famous-. Well known OOCly, and among a few old PCs, sure. But you ask an Amos who the hell any one of those people were and they'll probably shrug.

[Jingo]

Elves may be liked less than breeds. And elves may be less employable than breeds.

But I think that elves have a manner of carving out niches for themselves that breeds lack. This often makes them the providers of valuable services that would be unavailable elsewhere.

This, coupled with the fact that elves always seems to back each other up when threatened, would make them a difficult to pick on.

So, to this end, I would suggest that breeds are more likely to be picked on because they are more often isolated and less useful.

[Spoon]

My view on this thread, which is a good one (the thread, not my point):

I think I'm looking at the issue at a different angle. Some people are looking at it as who's most hated, or even who's most successful. What I got from the OP, the question is who's the scum. And it's the mutts. It's what shapes the very foundation of their character.

[Bilanthri]

My view on this thread, which is a good one (the thread, not my point):

I think I'm looking at the issue at a different angle. Some people are looking at it as who's most hated, or even who's most successful. What I got from the OP, the question is who's the scum. And it's the mutts. It's what shapes the very foundation of their character.

I have to agree.

To a human, elves are scum. To an elf, humans are scum. But these two groups will both agree that the half-breed in the corner is the worst kind of scum.

Dirty breed...can't even tell it to stick to its own kind. 

[Sephiroto]

Half-breeds are by far, the lowest of the low in my book.  Not because they are vile or disgusting.  It is because they are sad and weak of spirit.  They are dirt to be trod upon.  Forced to serve then discarded.  They are a bastard race.

Only one PC death of mine has made me upset, and it was my longest-lived half-breed.  When he died, I felt like a real person, someone I know, had actually passed away.  I find the half-breed mentality an amazing experience.  I spent so much time in his head that he became a real person.  I feel like he still exists, somewhere.

For anyone caring to read the synopsis of that particular half-breed, here it is:

A half-elf ranger is abducted by a powerful magick user and forced to be its slave.  He lived in a cave so long it had him haunched over like a gith.  Eventually his captor dies, so the half-breed wanders alone and by some miracle manages to survive.  He eventually rises to a meager level of power in magick himself, cleans up, looks more human.  He then spends years trying to find a path and purpose.  During that time, his ability to wield magick grows as well.  He attempts to mingle with peoples of every race, trying to impress them all.   From the vilest of the vile, purest of pure, and most savage of savage, he tries to earn their acceptance.  As soon as one group begins to accept him, he withdraws from them and works on another group, never quite feeling like he fits in.  He is confused and lost, perpetually.  He always feels different and eventually begins to regard himself as a different race altogether.  He wants guidance, but nobody will stand to serve as his example.  He wanders around  and uses his magickal power to help some while causing mischief to others for lack of direction.  He is constantly misunderstood.  Eventually he is hunted by people all over the world, even the few people closest try to murder him after he turned his back to them.  Others who don't want to kill him want his power.  Those who don't get his power try to kill him.  This drives him to the brink of insanity.  Everything that happens after this is a bit too IC to discuss and a bit fuzzy, because even I don't completely understand the details. 

I am a terrible writer.  I wish someone would write his story.  I don't know if this is even possible.  I would buy the book, that's for sure.

[Gunnerblaster]

Only one PC death of mine has made me upset, and it was my longest-lived half-breed.  When he died, I felt like a real person, someone I know, had actually passed away.  I find the half-breed mentality an amazing experience.  I spent so much time in his head that he became a real person.  I feel like he still exists, somewhere.

I'd have to say, Sephiroto, that was really well-put and I can empathize completely with you.

In the 4 or so years that I have been playing, my half-breed was truly one of the most heart-twisting roles I've ever had and/or played.

[KnownUnknown]

rinthi breed defiler would be the best bet

[Lizzie]

Huge difference - ENORMOUS - between:

This appears very elflike in features, having the typical long ears and angular facial structure, skinny and tall for a humanoid, lanky and limber, etc. etc. etc.

and

This IS an elf.

One is *implying* that it's an elf, and leaves it up to the reader to interpret it.

The other leaves no room for interpretation, and -cannot- be roleplayed around. That IS an elf. It isn't a breed who looks like an elf. Even though it can't speak allundean, it insists on riding, it doesn't belong to a tribe - the description *instructs* the reader to *know* that this is an elf.

Personally I don't think you should be allowed to have it both ways. If you play a breed, it can LOOK like one or the other, but any "directive" in the mdesc making any other decisive claim should not be allowed.

[Nyr]

Please do not detail anything about your existing and current PC (or anything within the past RL year for your PCs).  I removed a post here that did that.

[Cindy42]

Please do not detail anything about your existing and current PC (or anything within the past RL year for your PCs).  I removed a post here that did that.

err, sorry... X)

also: i had a question on my anthropology test. there's a real word for this i think.

The Yellow people have, not now but in the historical past, been socially and economically superior to Blues due to suppression of the Blue's equal rights. Skip to present: a Yellow person and a Blue person get married, and have a child. Then child is Green, but is called Blue by their society. This is an example of what?

Too bad I can't remember the word for this.

[flurry]

also: i had a question on my anthropology test. there's a real word for this i think.

The Yellow people have, not now but in the historical past, been socially and economically superior to Blues due to suppression of the Blue's equal rights. Skip to present: a Yellow person and a Blue person get married, and have a child. Then child is Green, but is called Blue by their society. This is an example of what?

Too bad I can't remember the word for this.

Hypodescent? (I cheated and looked up one-drop rule on Wikipedia.)

[Cindy42]

also: i had a question on my anthropology test. there's a real word for this i think.

The Yellow people have, not now but in the historical past, been socially and economically superior to Blues due to suppression of the Blue's equal rights. Skip to present: a Yellow person and a Blue person get married, and have a child. Then child is Green, but is called Blue by their society. This is an example of what?

Too bad I can't remember the word for this.

Hypodescent? (I cheated and looked up one-drop rule on Wikipedia.)

yes, thank you

[Is Friday]

I dunno what you people are smokin--but merchants get treated worse than any breed.

[Cindy42]

I dunno what you people are smokin--but merchants get treated worse than any breed.

actually, i bet they are--- they're out to take your money and everyone knows it, in a way that you can't go to jail for.

[Mooney]

I'm both stunned and impressed at how 'strongly' the racism runs against half-elves and maintained by the players.

I'm actually uncertain whether I'm even capable as a player of producing and maintaining that depth in mentality against or as a half-elf.

Educational thread.

[Lizzie]

I'm both stunned and impressed at how 'strongly' the racism runs against half-elves and maintained by the players.

I'm actually uncertain whether I'm even capable as a player of producing and maintaining that depth in mentality against or as a half-elf.

Educational thread.

I actually think it's easier to get into the mindset of a half-elf, than any other character type in Arm. They're like hormonal teenagers in personality - back and forth, subject to all the extremes of emotion that flicker on and off without warning. They're triggered by anything, and sometimes by nothing at all, only a perception of something. A "healthy" half-elven mindset is vaguely unstable. It's like, the opposite of being a sociopath. Someone who NEEDS, constantly. Sometimes he NEEDS to be with this group. Sometimes he NEEDS to be with that group. Sometimes he NEEDS to be alone. And even he isn't always sure what he needs, so it frustrates him. So he's a frustrated needy ne'erdowell, with the emotional stability of a pubescent teenager.

Just walk into your nearest shopping mall, find a bench, sit down, and watch the crowds for an hour. You'll see enough of them to have the schtick memorized

[Cindy42]

Half-breeds are by far, the lowest of the low in my book.  Not because they are vile or disgusting.  It is because they are sad and weak of spirit.  They are dirt to be trod upon.  Forced to serve then discarded.  They are a bastard race.

Only one PC death of mine has made me upset, and it was my longest-lived half-breed.  When he died, I felt like a real person, someone I know, had actually passed away.  I find the half-breed mentality an amazing experience.  I spent so much time in his head that he became a real person.  I feel like he still exists, somewhere.

For anyone caring to read the synopsis of that particular half-breed, here it is:

A half-elf ranger is abducted by a powerful magick user and forced to be its slave.  He lived in a cave so long it had him haunched over like a gith.  Eventually his captor dies, so the half-breed wanders alone and by some miracle manages to survive.  He eventually rises to a meager level of power in magick himself, cleans up, looks more human.  He then spends years trying to find a path and purpose.  During that time, his ability to wield magick grows as well.  He attempts to mingle with peoples of every race, trying to impress them all.   From the vilest of the vile, purest of pure, and most savage of savage, he tries to earn their acceptance.  As soon as one group begins to accept him, he withdraws from them and works on another group, never quite feeling like he fits in.  He is confused and lost, perpetually.  He always feels different and eventually begins to regard himself as a different race altogether.  He wants guidance, but nobody will stand to serve as his example.  He wanders around  and uses his magickal power to help some while causing mischief to others for lack of direction.  He is constantly misunderstood.  Eventually he is hunted by people all over the world, even the few people closest try to murder him after he turned his back to them.  Others who don't want to kill him want his power.  Those who don't get his power try to kill him.  This drives him to the brink of insanity.  Everything that happens after this is a bit too IC to discuss and a bit fuzzy, because even I don't completely understand the details. 

I am a terrible writer.  I wish someone would write his story.  I don't know if this is even possible.  I would buy the book, that's for sure.

you are not a terrible writer. that was an amazing story. i wish i could have seen it