Burglary less tenable?

[Salt Merchant]

With increasing apartment rents, is burglary becoming even less tenable as a career?

[Malken]

I don't know, but I just learned a new word today.

Thanks!

[Cutthroat]

I think the rent increase won't make a difference for better or worse to burglars unless the change brings about a noticeable increase in vacant apartments, or a greater trend of people moving out of the rich apartments to the middling or poorer apartments.

Somehow I doubt the holders of these apartments will be struggling to make rent from a mere 100 sid increase or less. I also think they won't be terribly affected by a similar increase every RL month until things are suitably evened out. So I think some people will move and some people won't, leaving vacancies at about the same percentage, making some people an even easier target.

I think if anything related to this makes burglary less tenable as a profession, it's that so many PCs can hold onto apartments with strong doors fairly easily and that apartments many burglars can break into are deemed "useless" and often left alone, although they are not necessarily useless just because they can be broken into. There are most likely other reasons, but to explain them would be both off-topic and beating a dead horse.

You seem to think burglary is not very viable right now ("even less tenable"), and that you posed the question without an explanation seems to imply that you think it will get worse. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm not, I'm curious as to why you think that.

[FightClub]

Burglars and Assassins should be combined to form vultron -- no I mean thief. What a junk class anyway. Never played one, never intend to. I would be more inclined to make a combat only merchant.

Made another adjustment.  No more than 100 sid difference, again.

Oh and a small rant - you know -- cause 100 sid here or there isn't a big deal to people who play the game properly. Not that I'm one of them. These sort of things only encourage more people to spam forage, and MDK wildlife. You increase rates for a growing economy, higher demand. I'd imagine things haven't changed much from the last time I saw them.

[Akaramu]

I would like to see less burglary, not more... it is way too common. 

I remember a time when rooms would not get broken into twice per RL week.

[Vanth]

With increasing apartment rents, is burglary becoming even less tenable as a career?

If you mean, is it going to cramp the style of people who rent the cheapest apartment in a more expensive building so that they don't have to bother sneaking past the landlord, then... actually probably not.

If you mean, is it going to make even fewer people rent apartments, then again... probably not.

[Aaron Goulet]

Burglars and Assassins should be combined to form vultron -- no I mean thief. What a junk class anyway. Never played one, never intend to. I would be more inclined to make a combat only merchant.

You seem to think that ripping off apartments is the only way to play a successful burglar.  That's one way to do it, sure, but there are other ways to make a living when you're the best stealth class in the game.  A lot of people seem to forget that.

Also, while I'm against combining any guilds at this time, I'd sooner see pickpocket and burglar put together than assassin and burglar; the former two classes combined make a better "thief" than someone whose skills revolve around killing.  Besides, a good assassin is plenty powerful enough.

Made another adjustment.  No more than 100 sid difference, again.

Oh and a small rant - you know -- cause 100 sid here or there isn't a big deal to people who play the game properly. Not that I'm one of them. These sort of things only encourage more people to spam forage, and MDK wildlife. You increase rates for a growing economy, higher demand. I'd imagine things haven't changed much from the last time I saw them.

I agree that independents will probably still make rent by spending less time socializing and more time "producing" coin, and I'm not sure I like it.  And clanned people?  Well, any that could afford apartments before, probably won't be able to now, even the ghetto ones.  I've felt discouraged from playing in traditional clans lately because of the massive economic disparity, and this change only serves to widen the gap (unless clan pay has seen a massive increase as well).

Overall though, I'm not against increasing apartment prices, I just think that adjustments need to be made simultaneously to other areas of the game economy as well for balancing purposes.

[Salt Merchant]

You seem to think burglary is not very viable right now ("even less tenable"), and that you posed the question without an explanation seems to imply that you think it will get worse. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm not, I'm curious as to why you think that.

My impression is that burglary is sort of a cyclical thing. A burglar gets going, gets good enough to pursue his vocation. But there are only a limited number of PC apartments. PCs get pissed off at being robbed and stop keeping valuables in their places. The burglar then starves and dies, or at least gives up and does something else to support himself. After a long while, PCs start to relax again.

Higher rents means that casual players will have less ability to rent apartments, which means fewer marks, which means less viability.

[Bilanthri]

A burglar gets going, gets good enough to pursue his vocation. But there are only a limited number of PC apartments. PCs get pissed off at being robbed and stop keeping valuables in their places. The burglar then starves and dies, or at least gives up and does something else to support himself. After a long while, PCs start to relax again.

Sounds like a clear-cut case of over-hunting...er, over-burgling.

[Salt Merchant]

A burglar gets going, gets good enough to pursue his vocation. But there are only a limited number of PC apartments. PCs get pissed off at being robbed and stop keeping valuables in their places. The burglar then starves and dies, or at least gives up and does something else to support himself. After a long while, PCs start to relax again.

Sounds like a clear-cut case of over-hunting...er, over-burgling.

I'd call it a design flaw. I've yet to find a multi-player online game that supports thieving well.

[X-D]

Higher rents means that casual players will have less ability to rent apartments, which means fewer marks, which means less viability.

No, it means that casual players, the ones who kept little in the apartment to begin with will have to give the apartment up and players who put in a lot of time will get them and store more stuff, and so increasing viability.

[Salt Merchant]

Higher rents means that casual players will have less ability to rent apartments, which means fewer marks, which means less viability.

No, it means that casual players, the ones who kept little in the apartment to begin with will have to give the apartment up and players who put in a lot of time will get them and store more stuff, and so increasing viability.

You're assuming there has been far greater demand than supply, X-D. We'll see.

[spawnloser]

Whenever I've wanted an apartment with a character, demand has completely outstripped supply, except in the realm of the cheapest apartments around.

[Riev]

There was a time, before the December HRPT, where you had to go to Red Storm just to rent an apartment, because people were renting EVERYTHING. Even those "crap" places in Tuluk were full basically all the time.

Now that things are "harder", maybe there aren't as many people renting. Or, maybe people are making more clanned characters that just need a place to bang their whore for a night, and not a homestyle living.

[chuci]

I'd love to see multiple rooms for rent in taverns. Quit out in it, you wake up in the public quit-spot in the tavern. 30 'sid a night or something. That'd give those lovers and criminals and conspirators a place to meet without having to rent an entire apartment for a half-month. Most people don't keep crap in the "just to meet up in" places.

[Lizzie]

In the time I've been playing, with every character who has had reason to visit Red Storm, I have seen vacancies three times. I snagged a place two of those times; the third time it wasn't IC for my character to rent.

[FightClub]

OMFG Someone responded to my post, must be because he's an atonement buddy! *high five*

You seem to think that ripping off apartments is the only way to play a successful burglar.  That's one way to do it, sure, but there are other ways to make a living when you're the best stealth class in the game.  A lot of people seem to forget that.

Well, beyond ripping off apartments, you can be successful, or minorly successful at things that have nothing to do with your class selection. Like being in a combat clan. Sure you might be good at gathering intel, and getting into tight spaces, but when push comes to shove you're a wuss.  A 60 day burglar without massive twink action, is going to get destroyed by a 10 day warrior, or 15-20 day ranger. At least from what I've seen.

--

I agree that independents will probably still make rent by spending less time socializing and more time "producing" coin, and I'm not sure I like it.  And clanned people?  Well, any that could afford apartments before, probably won't be able to now, even the ghetto ones.  I've felt discouraged from playing in traditional clans lately because of the massive economic disparity, and this change only serves to widen the gap (unless clan pay has seen a massive increase as well).

One the second, wow someone agreeing with me -- gotta take a second to get a handle on myself here, really -- wtf?  No further input though, you said it better than I ever did. Look at Vanth saying absolutely nothing, cause she knows we're absolutely right. HAH!

[mansa]

I agree with cuchi.

[Armaddict]

I'd love to see multiple rooms for rent in taverns. Quit out in it, you wake up in the public quit-spot in the tavern. 30 'sid a night or something. That'd give those lovers and criminals and conspirators a place to meet without having to rent an entire apartment for a half-month. Most people don't keep crap in the "just to meet up in" places.

+1

[Qeynos]

I think keeping an apartment would be much more viable if there were other things for burglars to burgle than strictly PC-owned apartments. If there's three burglars and twenty apartments in one area, it's no wonder noone wants to turn their room into anything remotely resembling a home. If there were five or ten non-PC locations to rob, each "respawning" at intervals, then burglars wouldn't have to operate exclusively in a manner that happens to completely invalidate the only option for private PC housing, and people might be more inclined to actually leave something in their apartments which burglars could then occasionally prey on, hopefully seldom enough that it doesn't make said apartments useless. It's not as if there aren't dozens of otherwise completely purposeless locations in each city. It seems unfortunate and unnecessary that the burglar guild's premise has to be so prohibitively small.

[Akaramu]

I'd love to see multiple rooms for rent in taverns. Quit out in it, you wake up in the public quit-spot in the tavern. 30 'sid a night or something. That'd give those lovers and criminals and conspirators a place to meet without having to rent an entire apartment for a half-month. Most people don't keep crap in the "just to meet up in" places.

That's an awesome idea.

+1!

[Ampere]

I don't know, I genuinely enjoy burglary. So long as it's executed as realistically as possible...which is why I feel classes with lockpick should grouped with delves under the single karma tier.

Re thread: I don't see this change changing much other than having the rent more accurately reflect the property.

[Dalmeth]

The only thing that makes burglars untenable is burglars that clean out apartments rather than just taking what they need.

[Vanth]

Look at Vanth saying absolutely nothing, cause she knows we're absolutely right. HAH!

[Fredd]

OMFG Someone responded to my post, must be because he's an atonement buddy! *high five*



A 60 day burglar without massive twink action, is going to get destroyed by a 10 day warrior, or 15-20 day ranger. At least from what I've seen.

PLayed a Burgler-Guard once. Got into a house as a House Guard Recruit. By the time I was done with the 30 days of training, I could not only kick the average new warrior butt (not by much, but i could) I could also rob peeps.

[jriley]

I think keeping an apartment would be much more viable if there were other things for burglars to burgle than strictly PC-owned apartments. If there's three burglars and twenty apartments in one area, it's no wonder noone wants to turn their room into anything remotely resembling a home. If there were five or ten non-PC locations to rob, each "respawning" at intervals, then burglars wouldn't have to operate exclusively in a manner that happens to completely invalidate the only option for private PC housing, and people might be more inclined to actually leave something in their apartments which burglars could then occasionally prey on, hopefully seldom enough that it doesn't make said apartments useless. It's not as if there aren't dozens of otherwise completely purposeless locations in each city. It seems unfortunate and unnecessary that the burglar guild's premise has to be so prohibitively small.

I suggested this a few years ago.  People liked the idea.  Nobody followed up, though. 

+1

[Fredd]

I beleave that if you are good enough, you can rob a merchant house.

Have fun.

[Thunkkin]

I think keeping an apartment would be much more viable if there were other things for burglars to burgle than strictly PC-owned apartments. If there's three burglars and twenty apartments in one area, it's no wonder noone wants to turn their room into anything remotely resembling a home. If there were five or ten non-PC locations to rob, each "respawning" at intervals, then burglars wouldn't have to operate exclusively in a manner that happens to completely invalidate the only option for private PC housing, and people might be more inclined to actually leave something in their apartments which burglars could then occasionally prey on, hopefully seldom enough that it doesn't make said apartments useless. It's not as if there aren't dozens of otherwise completely purposeless locations in each city. It seems unfortunate and unnecessary that the burglar guild's premise has to be so prohibitively small.

I suggested this a few years ago.  People liked the idea.  Nobody followed up, though. 
+1

Combat characters can hunt and kill npc critters.
Assassins can hunt and kill npc humanoids.
Pickpockets can steal from npcs.
Merchants can sell goods to npcs.
But burglars have nothing to burgle except for PCs.

NPC homes with the occasional, random aggro npc or even under the protection of certain crime syndicates, would add even more spice to the burgling life.

[Qzzrbl]

Burglars can spy, burglars can do pickpocket stuff, burglars begin to "learn the path of the assassin".

Fuck's sake people. Use your imagination.

Pickpockets don't -only- pickpocket.

Assassins don't -only- assass.

Warriors don't -only- war.

Rangers don't -only- range.

And burglars don't -only- burgle.

[Thunkkin]

Burglars can spy, burglars can do pickpocket stuff, burglars begin to "learn the path of the assassin".

Fuck's sake people. Use your imagination.

Pickpockets don't -only- pickpocket.

Assassins don't -only- assass.

Warriors don't -only- war.

Rangers don't -only- range.

And burglars don't -only- burgle.

This isn't about "gee, what do I do with my burglar."  This is about low-end apartment renting problems and how to solve them.

Edit:  You'll also note the OP was asking about whether burglary was tenable as a career, not whether guild burglar was tenable.  The discussion has now moved to how to balance making burgling fun while also encouraging people to treat low end apartments like real homes.

[Qzzrbl]

There are -alot- of locks to pick IG.

Some lead to bigger treasures than others.

Not all of them are PC apartments or "useless  areas" as someone put it.

[Thunkkin]

There are -alot- of locks to pick IG.

Some lead to bigger treasures than others.

Not all of them are PC apartments or "useless  areas" as someone put it.

And somehow the idea of increasing the number of npc homes in order to spread out the risk to PCs and encourage realistic use of apartments offends you.

Why?

[Qzzrbl]

There are -alot- of locks to pick IG.

Some lead to bigger treasures than others.

Not all of them are PC apartments or "useless  areas" as someone put it.

And somehow the idea of increasing the number of npc homes in order to spread out the risk to PCs and encourage realistic use of apartments offends you.

Why?

The idea of NPC homes with "respawning" loot doesn't seem terribly realistic.

Especially if you think there's going to be anything worth selling in your average npc/vnpc common filth dwelling.

[Thunkkin]

The idea of NPC homes with "respawning" loot doesn't seem terribly realistic.

How is this different from, say, duskhorn respawning?  Or flowers on a plant respawning?  Or shop keepers replenishing their income to provide opportunities for merchants/sellers?

Especially if you think there's going to be anything worth selling in your average npc/vnpc common filth dwelling.

Possibly not.  But it still spreads out the risk.  Make the average apartment as valuable as the average tregil or duskhorn.  Mix them in with the PC apartments so it's impossible to know whether you're breaking into a PC or NPC apartment.  It would provide a reason for certain groups to keep close tabs on what and how much is being broken into, just like there are groups that keep tabs on over-hunting and will bring down wrath on those who flaunt the natural system.

More RP opportunities?  More variety and interest?  More realistic apartment use?  Sounds like a win/win to me.  I'm not sure what's being lost.

[Qzzrbl]

So basically give burglars a few more rooms to break into before they score a PC's apartment?

It hardly seems like a solution.

It's only a matter of moving a room and typing, "Pick <door>".

[brytta.leofa]

So basically give burglars a few more rooms to break into before they...

...break into the apartment of an irritable off-duty soldier?

Adding NPC apartments with a decent variety of well-scripted NPCs could make burglary vastly more challenging.  PCs often don't spend much time in their apartments; for instance, none of the time they're logged off.  NPCs probably would.

[Qzzrbl]

Any burglar I've ever seen worth their salt remains hidden with a hood up before opening the door and looking into the room before entering with scan on.

It's too easy to flee situations like that with half-decent stealth skills.

So unless NPC apartment renters are actually secretly ninja assassins who get their rocks off by hiding in their apartment waiting to maim an unsuspecting burglar, I don't see how there will be much of a change.

[Thunkkin]

So unless NPC apartment renters are actually secretly ninja assassins who get their rocks off by hiding in their apartment waiting to maim an unsuspecting burglar, I don't see how there will be much of a change.

I did this as a PC once ... >.>

[X-D]

Not the only one.

[Fredd]

Not the only one.

I'de do it if I found shet missing from my apartment regularly.

[Qzzrbl]

Instead of just adding a few random NPC rooms to apartments that won't do much to make burglary any more/less tenable. I think it'd be cool to expand upon burglary some more.

Here's something I posted a couple of years back:

It would be nice if burglary were expounded upon.

It's always bugged me that all you need is a lockpick to get a door open.

No torsion wrenches?

No slim jims?

How does -everyone- have a lock made of wood? You'd think more people would trust just barring their door, and other options for locking.

And more options for locking would open up for an arsenal of tools to circumvent the security.

I see incompetent burglars messing up and breaking the lock to the point to where they can't be used anymore, alerting everyone to the presence of a break-in.

I see tools for removing the hinges or knobs of doors entirely, for the burglar who doesn't care.

It would also be neat to have the option to prop a chair up against a door, or barricading the door with heavy stuff, or trying to hold a door shut with your own weight.

Would be neat if it were possible to kick flimsy doors down, with critical fails (or particularly sturdy doors) injuring the kicker's foot and giving them more movement delay for a few days, that would also give a sound echo to a few room radius that would alert apartment/house guards.

[Fredd]

My problem with burglery comes with the fact you MUST have a lockpick to pick locks.

In order to make a lockpick, you have to be a master at picking locks.

But how do you master it, if you have no lock picks?

Which came first, the thief, or the lockpick? LOL

[Ampere]

My problem with burglery comes with the fact you MUST have a lockpick to pick locks.

In order to make a lockpick, you have to be a master at picking locks.

But how do you master it, if you have no lock picks?

Which came first, the thief, or the lockpick? LOL

Never had a problem finding lockpicks.  Just ask your friendly neighbourhood celf.