Not So Random Wants related to Stamina (+ elf vs human pissing contest!)

[Armaddict]

Good thing human rangers require no karma to play, whereas desert elves do. Otherwise you might have a point.

Don't get snarky.  I was pointing out that the way desert elves use stealth is tremendously more powerful, and to not try to play a human ranger the same way.  Stealth on a human ranger is still powerful but must be utilized differently.

[Drayab]

The way I've always played it, and had decent success with it, is don't bother trying to use it like a desert elf ranger does.  They're completely different.  A human ranger uses it as I think it should be...short distances to stalk, short distances to scout, to lay ambushes, and so on.  In that case, sure, the stealth skills are not so overpowered, but they're reasonable in that way.  It's the desert-elf stealth that broke it, so that they can essentially move over -enormous- distances without ever coming out of stealth, and in the case of pursuit, can simply disappear using it, or at the very least, get to a place where no one else can go for whatever reason.

Human ranger stealth = awesome.  Desert elf stealth = broken, and whenever I encounter it I feel like the other is cheating or abusing something even when they're not.

Yeah, what you're describing is the way your garden variety human ranger will make use of his stealth skills on a daily basis, and yeah, I do agree it seems like a more realistic way for stealth to work, though I am not a hunter myself. When I think of d elf running abilities, the closest RL example I think of is persistence hunting. That is, people who have developed the ability to run and hunt on foot over long distances. These people are hardly hidden from their prey though. However, I think what d elves have is meant to be beyond this; it's actually a biological adaptation to desert survival. They take to running like a horse.

In the end, it's a fantasy game so I don't sweat it too much.

[Kiara]

Stealth on a human ranger is still powerful but must be utilized differently.

You're absolutely correct. A race that has lived in the wastes for countless generations will have adapted to the harsh living conditions in some fashion.

I guess I don't see what your beef with the inherent differences is.

I cringe at what you might say if desert elves were still capable of having 400+ mvs 

[Armaddict]

You mean before you could stay hidden while moving?

I don't...know where you're going with your responses.  You're agreeing but in the most accusatory way I've ever been agreed with.

[Kiara]

You're agreeing but in the most accusatory way I've ever been agreed with.

We agree that you have to play human rangers differently. I disagree with your contention that this is a problem.

[Drayab]

I disagree that giving everyone a small standing stamina regen is going to homogenize how human and d elf rangers stealth abilities are utilized.

Human rangers will still prefer mounts for combat, hunting and otherwise. The mount is a powerful ally for the human ranger with the recent changes to mounted combat, and a smart human will need very good reasons to give that up. D elves will still have the advantage of being able to choose whether to fight, flee, or watch. If a mountless human ranger is discovered by a d elf ranger, he is still shitting himself because that elf can still run much further and much faster than him. The elf is still in control of that situation.

What I would expect to change is that human rangers would be able to walk into the wilderness with acceptable odds of being able to pass through undetected, however slowly they are forced to travel. Human rangers would have a better chance of seeing the elf before the elf sees him since the resting inix is no longer a dead giveaway, but elves would still have an advantage in this regard because they can go much further without stopping.  And yeah, you'd no longer be able to camp a tired, hidden ranger while you wait for friends to come or else he gets bored and tries to fight his way out. Actually, you would still be able to camp him, but you wouldn't be able to do it indefinitely.

[janeshephard]

Recovering stamina should be a function of time with your stance a modifier. It shouldn't be simply turned off when you're not sitting/resting/sleeping.

Makes no sense.

[Blackisback]

Jane Shephard, it actually makes perfect sense. What doesn't make sense is the idea that you need to stop and lay down or sit somewhere to catch your breath, especially for characters who are (presumably) in good physical condition.

[brytta.leofa]

Compromise:

Stance becomes a modifier, not an on/off switch.  However, in most terrain (including the most fabled regen-friendly regions) your only chance of regenerating stamina while standing is after the sun goes down.

If you don't catch that ranger before sunset, you've probably lost him you're crow bait.  Kah?

[Drayab]

Well, I wouldn't go with a night/day toggle on whether you can catch your breath while standing. I think that over simplifies the situation. Whether or not you can catch your breath should depend on things like ambient temperature, weather conditions, the endurance statistic, and terrain. I mean, that's how it is already, yeah? It's intuitive, and I wouldn't want to see that changed. Presumably, there would be some set of conditions whereby you could regain stamina by resting but not standing. For example, you're a pretty tough guy that can soldier on in even the searing heat, but with this sandstorm up, even you have to huddle down to catch your breath. Even better, get the tent out! And if the tent is tall enough, you can stand in it while you catch your breath. 

[brytta.leofa]

Well, I wouldn't go with a night/day toggle on whether you can catch your breath while standing. I think that over simplifies the situation. Whether or not you can catch your breath should depend on things like ambient temperature, weather conditions, the endurance statistic, and terrain.

Agreed, in principle.  I don't mean it should be a toggle; I do mean that it should be calibrated so that daytime is almost invariably a no-regen time unless you're resting.  That's a way to reduce the possible impact of the change on "balance."

[FightClub]

I wish stamina regeneration was greater than zero while standing.

Realism dictates that standing up, you catch your breath quicker, but you're all mud nerds, wouldn't know anything about running.  
Oh, and this is a fantasy world, forgot that.

[spawnloser]

Actually, walking allows you to catch your breath faster after running... but that's catching your breath and not allowing the muscles to re-oxygenate.

[Aaron Goulet]

This is one of those things that, I think, requires some sacrifice in the realism department, though I always found it odd that there is absolutely no stamina regeneration while standing.  Giving back 1 point per 'tick' (assuming the character isn't in combat) regardless of race or endurance seems pretty harmless to me, given the number of points it takes to move anywhere in the desert.

[Drayab]

Realism dictates that standing up, you catch your breath quicker, but you're all mud nerds, wouldn't know anything about running.  
Oh, and this is a fantasy world, forgot that.

Nerd jokes aside, I know that how tired I am from running determines how much I want to change my posture to help rest up. You know, it goes like: hands on hips -> hunched over hands on knees -> sitting on the bench -> laying on the ground.

Whether or not there are medically sound reasons the body wants to do that? I dunno, but everybody seems to have the same natural reaction to being out of breath.

But yeah, it's a fantasy game. I don't argue in favor of this for the sake of realism, but because it would enable me to have more fun.

[FightClub]

Realism dictates that standing up, you catch your breath quicker, but you're all mud nerds, wouldn't know anything about running.  
Oh, and this is a fantasy world, forgot that.

Nerd jokes aside, I know that how tired I am from running determines how much I want to change my posture to help rest up. You know, it goes like: hands on hips -> hunched over hands on knees -> sitting on the bench -> laying on the ground.

Whether or not there are medically sound reasons the body wants to do that? I dunno, but everybody seems to have the same natural reaction to being out of breath.

But yeah, it's a fantasy game. I don't argue in favor of this for the sake of realism, but because it would enable me to have more fun.

Your body also tells you to put your penis in everything you see.

[manipura]

I've always thought that if you're going to be a ranger heading any significant distance out into the wilds -without- a mount, then it's definitely in your best interest to make sure you've got a tent with you...

[spawnloser]

I've always thought that if you're going to be a ranger heading any significant distance out into the wilds -without- a mount, then it's definitely in your best interest to make sure you've got a tent with you...

I don't think you should teach people how to play a certain class over the GDB by using specifics like this.

If you want to play a successful, unmounted ranger, it will not be easy.  You will need patience.  You will need to ALWAYS pay attention and be careful, making sure to prepare better than any other character need prepare.  Also keep in mind your encumbrance, because you want to carry a bunch of stuff with you but still don't want to be weighed down.  Playing a successful, unmounted ranger will also take game knowledge, so if you're not very experienced with the game world's geography, you will find it harder than one that is experienced.

[manipura]

By no means am I wanting to enter into any sort of pissing contest with you, spawnloser..but how was my response a lesson in playing certain classes?  If the character I am playing is a ranger-type who will be out of a city for an extended period, isn't it just common sense that some sort of portable shelter (which is readily available IG) would be helpful?

(And all I'm doing here is asking a question, so please don't take this as some huge opportunity to bash me...)

[chuci]

Spawnloser, you bash her for mentioning tents and then lecture about endurance?

[Lizzie]

Leeloo is a maxed out assassin/vivaduan desert elf.

I think that's what Chuci is trying to tell you all.

/random elf post

[spawnloser]

I mentioned no specifics, only general concepts that everyone should be worried about.  I only mentioned those general concepts that someone should be especially mindful of in one sort of situation.  The first line of my post was, by no means, me trying to have a pissing contest.  I was just making a comment.  I'll explain it better below...

So, that comment and the sentiment behind it:  specifics, I think, are best learned in game and are more fun when learned in game.  Specifics get all sorts of complicated when it comes down to roleplay and individuality.  A tent, for example is one of those things that you actually could debate the usefulness of, and whether it is useful for your character or not really is something that comes down to multiple factors, not just if you're playing a non-riding ranger.  Non-riding rangers will all differ when it comes to stats and sub-guilds, so what will be best for one may not be best for another.  In cases like this, I think general advice is best, instead of giving specific (possibly character- or style-specific) advice which may not apply.  How much water should your character carry, what sorts of weapons, what sorts of gear, where should s/he operate out of, blah, blah, blah.  These are all specifics and you shouldn't tell people how to do this, because when one specific thing changes, others can become non-relevant.

[Qeynos]

Allow resting after a few ticks of having been hidden. Any further movement takes you out of hiding, and you can't actually begin to hide while resting and sitting. That would allow recovery in hiding, which should totally be possible, while preventing things like sitting down on a chair and then hiding.

[FightClub]

Spawnloser just posts for the sake of posting, and argues for exactly the same. He has no real belief in anything. It's why you catch him being hypocritical constantly.

[jstorrie]

inb4 threadlock