Not So Random Wants related to Stamina (+ elf vs human pissing contest!)

[Drayab]

I wish stamina regeneration was greater than zero while standing.

I could do so much with just a little greater than zero.

Can't a person stand or hide behind a bush while they catch their breath?

[brytta.leofa]

I wish stamina regeneration was greater than zero while standing.

(Or riding, if the rider is very skilled.)

This would make human vs. elf ranger games so much more, well, possible.

[spawnloser]

I wish stamina regeneration was greater than zero while standing.

(Or riding, if the rider is very skilled.)

This would make human vs. elf ranger games so much more, well, possible.

Are you kidding me?  Sure, elves have their advantages, but the fact that the human has a mount with way more stamina than an elf has (and I promise you that this is true for nearly ALL mounts), meaning the human spends ZERO stamina moving along meaning s/he has all his/her stamina for combat skills while the elf has to conserve.

Human vs elf ranger is a strategy game with no clear winner.  Don't make it seem like d.elves are something twinky to play please.

[brytta.leofa]

Don't make it seem like d.elves are something twinky to play please.

No, that's not what I meant.  Elves are fine, but they have some advantages over humans in sneaky stalking mode: if rested, they have a larger stamina pool to work on...and their opponent isn't going to win by stealing or killing their mount.

Regenerating stamina while hidden would make hiding a more attractive tactic across the board.  There are lots of ways that could play out.

[Armaddict]

Don't make it seem like d.elves are something twinky to play please.

They can be.  I'd say they can be more than several other races or classes, but less so than a couple others.  I have my...small irritations with things with d.elves that I reserve the right to think (but will not go on a rant about), but suffice to say...there is a reason why very few outside the tribe ever get to see much of the tribe's actual culture.

[Malifaxis]

Don't make it seem like d.elves are something twinky to play please.

They can be.  I'd say they can be more than several other races or classes, but less so than a couple others.  I have my...small irritations with things with d.elves that I reserve the right to think (but will not go on a rant about), but suffice to say...there is a reason why very few outside the tribe ever get to see much of the tribe's actual culture.

It's player by player, man.  Just like every other faction.

Player A can play a d-elf for 30 days and not branch.

Player B can play a d-elf for 5 days and branch thrice... and then go on to the Byn to do the same, or Kurac, or Winrothol, or f'ing everywhere.

[LauraMars]

I wish stamina regeneration was greater than zero while standing.

I could do so much with just a little greater than zero.

Can't a person stand or hide behind a bush while they catch their breath?

I just wanted to express my agreement for this statement.

[Drayab]

My thought didn't have to do with any kind of d elf vs human ranger scenario. It's just that I've found human/half-elf rangers' wilderness stealth to be not particularly useful because the second you stop to rest, you're completely visible. It's a very risky position to put your character into. I wish human rangers could go out on foot and move through the wilderness unseen if they're willing to take it at a very slow pace.

[Gunnerblaster]

My thought didn't have to do with any kind of d elf vs human ranger scenario. It's just that I've found human/half-elf rangers' wilderness stealth to be not particularly useful because the second you stop to rest, you're completely visible. It's a very risky position to put your character into. I wish human rangers could go out on foot and move through the wilderness unseen if they're willing to take it at a very slow pace.

Perhaps they could change it to where you're able to hide while sitting. Just like scan - while sitting/resting, your ability to hide is greatly penalized but it isn't -impossible- to do. If someone attacks you while hidden/sitting, you're still stuck in a bad position. Anyone familiar with their surroundings, be it the desert or city slums, would be able to easily pick out someone who was attempting to hide while sitting but if you lack those necessary detection skills, you simply aren't observant enough to notice that person attempting to hide, crouched, within the group of gamblers or that hunter hiding within some scrub grass over yonder.

Examples of hiding while standing/sitting - Everything is completely hypothetical.

Standing

Code Select Expand

>stand
>hide
>You begin searching for a place to hide.
You wait 5-10 seconds, depending on your skill.
>You attempt to blend in.

Sitting

Code Select Expand

>sit
>hide
>You begin searching for a place to hide.
You wait the usual time PLUS an additional penalty time for hiding in a prone position.
>You attempt to blend in.

There are obvious pro's & con's to this. The benefits are obvious - You are able to gain a small measure of stamina back while attempting to keep yourself concealed from your average Amos riding past. Disadvantages are there to easily counter the benefits: You're a sitting target for anyone who -CAN- see you.

[bcw81]

WORDS

But I would take into consideration that one can generally be more silent/less visible in a prone/sitting position rather than leaning with his/her back to a tree.

[Synthesis]

My thought didn't have to do with any kind of d elf vs human ranger scenario. It's just that I've found human/half-elf rangers' wilderness stealth to be not particularly useful because the second you stop to rest, you're completely visible. It's a very risky position to put your character into. I wish human rangers could go out on foot and move through the wilderness unseen if they're willing to take it at a very slow pace.

You can still hide from NPCs while your mount rests.  You can even sneak by them with your mount in tow, since 99.9% of NPCs won't attack mounts.  Since you only have to make it four rooms to get by any aggro NPC, 100+ stamina is plenty, for even the most heinously stamina-draining of terrains.  You can get attacked by a roboraptor, run your mount until it's -dead-, rest it, hide, then basically go AFK if you want (and you're confident in your skill level), because even when the raptor catches up with you, it will just hunt in place, unable to find you.  I mean, what's not to like about that?  It's one nice advantage human rangers have over d-elves.

If you could regenerate stamina while hiding, it would basically be giving every desert-elf, ranger, assassin, pickpocket, and burglar in the world the equivalent of an invisibility spell.  Having to go visible to recover stamina points is a huge factor in the PvP game, and that's exactly why so many people are clamoring, and have been clamoring so long for the ability to recover while hiding.

[DesertT]

The ability to quit out while sleeping.

Perhaps if it was made where this was possible if you had 3/4 stamina?

Hmmm...

[Rhyden]

I wish stamina regeneration was greater than zero while standing.

I could do so much with just a little greater than zero.

Can't a person stand or hide behind a bush while they catch their breath?

I just wanted to express my agreement for this statement.

Same. Even if you gained half as much stamina, half as quickly, and couldn't regain over 50% stamina without sitting/resting.

[Armaddict]

I wish stamina regeneration was greater than zero while standing.

I could do so much with just a little greater than zero.

Can't a person stand or hide behind a bush while they catch their breath?

I just wanted to express my agreement for this statement.

Same. Even if you gained half as much stamina, half as quickly, and couldn't regain over 50% stamina without sitting/resting.

I'm...undecided.  I'm not so sure I want people without scan to be even -more- worthless in the desert without a ranger.

[Drayab]

You can still hide from NPCs while your mount rests.  You can even sneak by them with your mount in tow, since 99.9% of NPCs won't attack mounts.  Since you only have to make it four rooms to get by any aggro NPC, 100+ stamina is plenty, for even the most heinously stamina-draining of terrains.  You can get attacked by a roboraptor, run your mount until it's -dead-, rest it, hide, then basically go AFK if you want (and you're confident in your skill level), because even when the raptor catches up with you, it will just hunt in place, unable to find you.  I mean, what's not to like about that?  It's one nice advantage human rangers have over d-elves.

If you could regenerate stamina while hiding, it would basically be giving every desert-elf, ranger, assassin, pickpocket, and burglar in the world the equivalent of an invisibility spell.  Having to go visible to recover stamina points is a huge factor in the PvP game, and that's exactly why so many people are clamoring, and have been clamoring so long for the ability to recover while hiding.

Well, burglars and assassins get to use their 'invisibility spell' without having to worry about catching their breath. D elves get to use their spell, too, because stamina isn't as much of a concern for them for widely known reasons, but human rangers have theirs crippled because wilderness rooms take stamina to move. Even if you hide in the shade trees for a whole week, you'd still be panting. As you pointed out, human rangers have to resort to using their stealth situationally, usually in tandem with a mount, but this requires knowing the little quirks of the code like the NPCs not attacking mounts.

Also, I never had PvP in mind when I had this thought. There are in fact things to do out there that are hindered by having a mount along, and they don't all involve PvP.

Besides, since when was PvP balance a primary concern here? You seem to be concerned that giving humans a small standing stamina regen would change the PvP balance of d elf versus human ranger battles, am I right? First of all, they would both be getting the same new little perk, though admittedly the human would benefit more from it. Nevertheless, I humbly submit that even with a small standing stamina regen, the best tactical choice for human rangers is still going to be mounted combat if they expect to run into d elves. In the one on one, on foot and otherwise equal match up, the d elf would still have the advantage because he is much more mobile due to his large stamina pool and his inherent quickness. What d elves wouldn't be able to do any more is see a resting inix off in the distance and OOCly know that there is probably a helpless round ear nearby.

[Synthesis]

My point was more along the lines of the fact that it would make tracking down and catching a d-elf (or human ranger) when you don't have the scan skill impossible, since they could simply hide and recover their stamina.

Even if you're a warrior/hunter who tracks them right to the point where their footprints stop, they could just sit there hidden, recovering stamina, and you'd never be able to see them.  Then they stand, sneak out, hide again...and you're back to square 1.

People could also cut logs and mine obsidian/glass with very little risk, since you could just sit there and hide to recover the stamina you lost.

And yes, city-folk get to use sneak+hide with no stamina penalty, but once you get them running (if they aren't a city-elf), they start losing that stamina and they have to recover it while visible.

That's just three examples.  I'm sure there are plenty more.

[X-D]

I've had several non-delf rangers that were highly succesful and never rode.

[Drayab]

Even if you're a warrior/hunter who tracks them right to the point where their footprints stop, they could just sit there hidden, recovering stamina, and you'd never be able to see them.  Then they stand, sneak out, hide again...and you're back to square 1.

Rangers ought to pwn warriors in the stealth game in the wilderness. It really should take scan to beat it, not a combination of subguild tracking and OOC knowledge of how stamina regen rates work. The warrior should be scratching his head, saying, 'Well, I dunno, guys! The trail leads here, but I don't see him anywhere!' Not, 'Okay guys, he's out of breath and in those bushes over there. Let's all pile up in this clearing and wait for him to get bored.'

People could also cut logs and mine obsidian/glass with very little risk, since you could just sit there and hide to recover the stamina you lost.

Well, yeah. They should be able to get there safely if they are wilderness stealth masters, but the wisdom in dragging bags of obsidian or agafari logs by hand when it could be better accomplished by an inix or friendly half-giant is debatable. However, I don't think it is twinkish or unreasonable to leave your logs out in the open while you scramble into the bushes to rest up out of sight.

And yes, city-folk get to use sneak+hide with no stamina penalty, but once you get them running (if they aren't a city-elf), they start losing that stamina and they have to recover it while visible.

True! And I think human thieves ought to be able to stick with the crowd, walking along slowly to catch their breath once the heat isn't right on their tails anymore!

[Synthesis]

If maxed stealth skills didn't completely outclass every mundane form of detection, I would tend to agree.

However, I've successfully used sneak+hide to move all the way from the Blackwing Outpost to Tuluk without being detected.  I once used sneak+hide in the city for 100 consecutive rooms without breaking my hide status.  Maxed scan is basically useless against anyone with decent agility or using camouflage.  You can shadow people right past clan guards, right through their apartment doorways, and you can get into places that by all rights nobody should be able to get into, no matter how sneaky they think they are.

Stealth skills are already ridiculously overpowered, man.  There is absolutely no sense in making them even more powerful.

[AI Fashion and Swag]

Stealth skills are already ridiculously overpowered, man.  There is absolutely no sense in making them even more powerful.

[Armaddict]

Yeah.  What Synthesis said.

[Drayab]

Well, I do agree that the city form of stealth is especially powerful. Wilderness stealth is crazy powerful if you are a d elf. And yeah, it is possible to move long distance stealthy as a human ranger if you play a few tricks to ameliorate the dangerous situation of resting in the open on a clear day, but the tricks again are situational. What's more, they are certainly not obvious to casual players! I don't want to reveal IC information, but I think you know what I am talking about. Still, the fact is, a human ranger, master of wilderness survival and stealth, can't safely cut a straight path through open wilderness without taking a chance that somebody might happen by while he's cooling his heels.

We can agree to disagree. I think it would open up new possibilities more than make existing ones more powerful. It is true that scan is rather weak against stealth at high levels, but I don't think this is a good argument for why people should be forced out of hiding to rest.

[Armaddict]

Still, the fact is, a human ranger, master of wilderness survival and stealth, can't safely cut a straight path through open wilderness without taking a chance that somebody might happen by while he's cooling his heels.

The way I've always played it, and had decent success with it, is don't bother trying to use it like a desert elf ranger does.  They're completely different.  A human ranger uses it as I think it should be...short distances to stalk, short distances to scout, to lay ambushes, and so on.  In that case, sure, the stealth skills are not so overpowered, but they're reasonable in that way.  It's the desert-elf stealth that broke it, so that they can essentially move over -enormous- distances without ever coming out of stealth, and in the case of pursuit, can simply disappear using it, or at the very least, get to a place where no one else can go for whatever reason.

Human ranger stealth = awesome.  Desert elf stealth = broken, and whenever I encounter it I feel like the other is cheating or abusing something even when they're not.

[Kiara]

Good thing human rangers require no karma to play, whereas desert elves do. Otherwise you might have a point.

[Drayab]

Good thing human rangers require no karma to play, whereas desert elves do. Otherwise you might have a point.

Um, what does karma have to do with whether or not people of all races and guilds can regen stamina while standing? Are you suggesting that I should play a d elf ranger if I want to walk alone in the wilderness? Because yeah, no shit, but no matter how much karma you have, you can't have a character that can slowly catch their breath while standing.

Besides, d elfs are not karma restricted because they are powerful. Dwarves are similarly powerful, but any noob gets to play them. Heck, humans are plenty powerful, too! And they are the race that you would throw all the noobs in, if one were to make such a tight restriction. D elves are karma restricted because they are held to a higher standard as far as adherence to documentation. Just think, what if a noob could roll up a d elf and then accidentally wander into a city?