Kicking

[Gar]

I saw that something was changed in the kicking code.  The problem is, things that I was kicking (gortok is a good example), now always bounces off their tough skin rendering kicking useless.  I noticed this just yesterday.  Do gortoks have tough of skin?  Was the change meant to be like this?

[UnderSeven]

Well bouncing off tough skin doesn't mean you're not doing anything.  If you notice when people fail to do damage to you, but actually still hit you (deflected off your codpiece or whatever) You might still lose some stun.  So the code isn't tring to tell you that the gortok isn't harmed, just that the gortok isn't harmed much.  I mean really a kick would be more effective to knock someone out than to kill them right off, so it kind of makes sense.. Besides which, gortoks got some nasty fur from all those halflings riding them and stuff, so if you arn't that strong (remeber you need strength to kick hard) Then you probably can't expect to get through that anti-halfling chastity shielding.

[SailorMars]

Well bouncing off tough skin doesn't mean you're not doing anything.

It doesn't? I would have thought 'partially absorbed' meant it did some but not all damage, and bouncing off meant no real damage, and only, maybe, some stun.

[Rindan]

I am not playing a character with kick now, but I am very glad they finally fixed kick.  I know that when I was a buffed up warrior fighting another buffed up warrior we would not beat each other to death with weapons, we would kick each other to death.  If kicks are more realistic in terms of how much damange they should do compared to a weapon, great!

[Anonymous]

All the above is understood but I think something went wrong.  Kicks should be able to hit without bouncing off a rats (or halflings or elves; I'm gonna try a tregil next) tough skin.  Come on.  And strength shouldnt be a problem for a dwarf.

I'd like to hear from someone who kick is working for.

[Plazgoth]

Kick works fine for me. The damage the opponent takes has been lessened, so you don't kill a silt horror with three kicks, but I am still able to succesfully kick things with pretty tough skin.

[chinwa]

I never saw Kick as just being you kicking someone, I saw it as an elbow, a knee to the gut, a headbutt even.

Umm... it's the "kick" skill, not the "go kung-fu on them" skill.

[kicking dwarf]

So, I decided to try something that shouldn't have tough skin.  Here's a dwarf who doesn't have exceptional strength but it's not bad.

Your kick at a black vestric bounces off his tough skin.
Ok, so I missed him the second time.
Your kick at a black vestric bounces off his tough skin.

Dang.  didn't know vestrics were so tough.  Maybe I'll try to find a tregil.

[Carnage]

Umm... it's the "kick" skill, not the "go kung-fu on them" skill.

Actually, it's generally accepted that 'kick' is like a strike with any part of your body.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I play a warrior guy, and I was suprised when I saw 'your kick bounces off the other warrior guy's tough skin'. I just shrugged it off, and assumed he found some way of evading the kick, or I hit him in his flabby love-handle and he didn't feel anything.

I think the echo is a little odd... But I don't mind the code change, over all. However, when people talk about how much damage weapons should do, I think they might be forgetting two things... 1) Many weapons are made of wood and bone, fairly blunt and ineffective materials 2) People and animals on Zalanthas are supposedly significantly tougher then those of us here on Earth.

I mean, if you wanted to be -real- realistic, you could have a one-hit-kills combat system. As in...

The buff warrior parries the dwarf's attack.
The buff warrior parries the dwarf's attack.
The buff warrior slices dwarf's head off with a single stroke.
>look in corpse
A chitinous breastplate
a pair of pants
a couple of obsidian axes
The severed head of a dwarf

Now, honestly, how much fun would that be? It's a fantasy game people... Don't be afraid to leave things, um... Fantastic. But anyways, I fully support the new kick code changes, I simply didn't realize they were so over-powered (I know kicking a silt horror to death in just three tries is impossible, but still, kicking -anything- bigger than a rat to death is just plain silly). Anyways, um... About the skin-bouncing... It sounds a little odd, I know. Just RP around it. Pretend you missed, or pretend they caught your kick, or pretend a billion other things. Heck, just pretend it didn't happen. Just RP around it, buddy.

[kicking dwarf]

Listen I understand all that about tough skin, having to tweak it down, etc.  I'm just saying that it seems like a dwarven warrior should be able to do even a little damage to a rat or vestric or tregil with a kick.  Isn't it silly not to?


OOC:  I'm smacking my head with my hand, but it keeps bouncing off my thick skull.

[kicking dwarf]

Yes, I did find a tregil and I kicked that small 24 inch long herbivore several times.  The thing is basically a rabbit.  I missed several times but all my kicks that hit bounced off his tough skin.  I wanted to see if it was the echo so I assessed him before and after the kick bounced off him.  He was relatively fit before and after.

I can't believe you think this is how kick should work unless it's intended only to be a stun weapon.

[Guest]

Kick currently is useless, and this is coming from someone who kicked at a mortaly wounded gortok with a AI str dwarf warrior way over 30day who can knock out a mul warrior in a few blows unarmed and the kick bounced off. And against an armored pc/npc definitly forget it, I'm not even sure it's doing stun.

[CindyLou]

maybe its just a bug from when they changed things to kick

since practice kick on a sparring dummy does the same thing already so maybe the code just confused critters with dummies and made them all the same by mistake

[X-D]

No, I've damaged sparring dummies with kicks many many many times

[Anonymous]

Kick currently is useless, and this is coming from someone who kicked at a mortaly wounded gortok with a AI str dwarf warrior way over 30day who can knock out a mul warrior in a few blows unarmed and the kick bounced off. And against an armored pc/npc definitly forget it, I'm not even sure it's doing stun.

Thank you!!!

I tried the same thing on a tregil that had been knocked out, bounced off him.  Then I tried it after he woke up, bounced off (my susbsequent punch ko'd him).

OOC: Stops smacking his head with his hand.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I'm thinking that the people who are having trouble with kick may be bugged. My character can still kick, with more or less the same effectiveness that he used to have (he's fairly proficient in this skill, it's probably his 3rd or 4th highest). Right now, most of my kick either land, or miss. I only got the 'bounces off his tough skin' message once.

Anyways... It sounds like it might be a bug. Not sure. I'll have to log in some time today, spar with someone, and kick 'em in the shin a few times, and study the effects... I think adding possible stun damage to kick was a great idea, toning down it's strength is good if some people saw it neccasary... But rendering it entirely useless? Let's hope not!  :shock:

[Carnage]

As a note, I've had a LOT of kicks miss me lately. My character doesn't have the kick or parry skill and has low defensive abilities. I've been kicked at by a ten day oldish warrior character, too, along with another 3-5 dayish old warrior.

[kicking dwarf]

I'm the dwarf who kicked the knocked out tregil and had it bounce off his skin.  I did this several times to test it and it always did the same thing.  And no, my strength is not AI, but it's not shabby.  Like the other dwarf, I have chosen not to post my name for several IC reasons.  

I had been kicking for several months as a warrior/ thug (6 day + character) and although I don't always hit, I usually do damage.  This just begin happening yesterday that everything (not some or most, everything) bounces off anyones skin.  I have tested tregil, gimka rats, vestrics, gortoks and halflings.  Some of the aforementioned have been unconscious when I kicked them, including the tregil, rat and vestric.

I think there is a bug.

[creeper386]

Well... It seemed to me the only thing kick matter before was either you hit, or you missed. Armour would get in the way most the time, but even when you are completely unarmed and unarmoured... Kicks normally don't do a WHOLE lot, unless your really strong/really skilled or the other person is really weak/really unskilled.

I tend to take the bouncing of their tough skin, as their defense kicking in. For larger, hard shelled creatures it might acctually mean your foot bounced off... For smaller creatures, they could of moved with the kick making the damage so minimum to be non exisant... Might still have stun damage but I don't know. Haven't seen kick in awhile.

Personally I think it's a really good change from what I've seen. Warriors always relied completely on kick it seems. I've been in several groups going against silt horrors... And no weapons would hit but we'd take it down with kicks for the most part.

Also, had a dwarven ranger who was acctually really quick for the most part. Skilled warriors couldn't touch him with weapons, do to dodge and parry, but they'd slaughter him with kick, which was rather unrealistic. If kick is no longer relying completely on the the kick skill in terms of defending against it, I'm really happy. If it's been toned down so that kick isn't the main power of warriors... Thats even better.

If people want to complain that warriors have had this the whole time and thats the only way they could stay alive... I'll refer you to the whole delf threads about the stamina being changed. Delves had that for along time, but it was also a major bug giving them much more power then was originally intended. Finally playing a delf, and I think if I had twice as much stamina... Holy crap... It'd be crazy. And I've played warriors, I've played against warriors, and kick really was way overpowered.

Creeper

[kicking dwarf]

I tend to take the bouncing of their tough skin, as their defense kicking in.... For smaller creatures, they could of moved with the kick making the damage so minimum to be non exisant...
Creeper

See my above post regarding kicking unconscious tregil, rats and vestric.  Come on.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Kick does seem to be a tad underpowered these days, from my observations.  But maybe it should be.

[Edit]
This doesn't make as much sense in the post as it did when I was writing it in my head...

[creeper386]

Yes, well I don't remember seeing that post when I posted. It seems alittle bugged. Perhaps noone included a check to see if the creature is unconcious, and it's just a straight check against defense or something?

It's new, there is supposed to be bugs. It's part of coding. But if kick is toned down, and made so that it isn't a warriors main way of killing quick, or high defense creatures(Including PCs, warrior and non warrior) then I'm in favor of the changes. Now if bash hasn't been tweaked I'd like to see that changed as it still doesn't really help anything. And with good endurance it's still possible to recover when fighting.

Now, I can see how not being able to damage a little creature while it's not out being alittle odd... but it's probably a bug of something that was forgotten in the first revamping of the kick code, or just a mistake.

Creeper

[5 day lifespan]

Id like to add, that for those who werent sure what the new kick was doing:  I was sparring an experienced warrior with a good kick skill, they kicked me and did no damage, which weve already figured out, but also no stun, and this after the echo of "So and so hammers you with a brutal circle kick- you see stars."  Hunh?  No stun damage?  I was confused.  but then, read my posts, I often am.  BTW, a kick can kill you, counter to what some people were saying.  Do I expect to kill a 15 foot high turtle that just ate my kank with my foot?  No.  Good change.  Do i expect to be able to mess up a guy when I plant my boot up along side his face?  Yep.  You can break a neck that way or cause a serious concussion.  It wont happen all the time, mind you, but if I get kicked by 4'5" of 300 lbs of dwarvish muscle I expect to have something get broken.

[creeper386]

It wont happen all the time, mind you, but if I get kicked by 4'5" of 300 lbs of dwarvish muscle I expect to have something get broken.

Hmm... I think the code only allows dwarves up to like... 230 pounds.

Now if someone thought I meant kick should do nothing at all, no I'm not saying that in my previous posts. I'm just saying that before, it was a decide all most the time of rather or not you won. When fighting with weapons, a kick isn't going to be the main offensive point. Even in any sort of Oriental Style of martial arts, when your using a weapon, a kick isn't meant to injure or incapacitate, it's meant normally to gain the advantage in terms of knocking them slightly off balance or protecting yourself in one way or another. Sure a kick can be dangerous... But if someones going to be able to do a kick, and be able to REALLY put power into it while I'm going at them with weapons... They well have to be so much better then me that they won't need that kick anyways.

My guess is... Defense was included too much into the skill, and positions weren't included at all(IE: sitting, resting, sleeping(Unconcious)).

Creeper who thinks it might need some more tweaking, but most the time new things aren't always perfect to start with, and recomends that if anyone hasn't done so... They email the MUD account with their logs and such. Some ideas/suggestions of what you think is going on/what you think should be going on might be helpful as well.[/quote]