Kicking

[Anonymous]

I looked into it since reading this post and my char can no longer damage
-anything- with a kick anymore it seems, even an unconscious gortok Every kick that has landed with my char since the change, just bounces off apparently, completely uneffective even if the opponent is lying on the ground unconscious and/or dying.
I think some of the reasons for changing kick like the bahamet and mekillot things are great, but now it seems kick has been rendered useless for me as well.

[Dan]

Little damage, high stun. Just like an attack unarmed. May do 1-2 damage, but 10-15 stun.

It looks as though you aren't doing anything, when in fact, you are.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Hm... My vote is shifting slightly. It's rather lame that the vast majority of kick damage is in the stun category. Lowering your foe's stun is useless, unless you intend to knock him out. And the only way you can knock him out is if...
1. You both happen to be kick-boxing
2. You're a master warrior who is proficient with clubs
3. You spam the crap out of kick

All pretty unlikely, and questionable RP, except for #2... But what happens to the slashing-weapons expert who used to enjoy the occasional kick in combat? (aka, my character). I'd like to see a -little- more kick damage... Even just an average of 5-10 hp or something. I see a kick as the ability to sneak in an extra attack. So if you have two blades, you go *slash slash kick 'em in the shin* as opposed to just *slash slash*. Or, if you have an axe and shield, you go *hack hit 'em in the skull with your shield*, as opposed to just *hack*. Just an extra bit of flair, an extra bit of damage, to help bring down your foe quicker.

However, I think a lot of the code changes are good. If it is indeed true that people were stomping meks to death in the game, then obviously, a change was needed. In my personal opinion, the following two things need to happen:
1. The new 'kick' code changes need to be tweaked, taking into account the target's position (standing, sitting, resting, sleeping), perhaps the target's size, and maybe be a bit more generous with health damage for a proficient kicker, though stun damage is a bit more realistic, and should remain the main focus of the skill.

2. Players need to be more responsible, and consider what they're doing during combat. Is it wise to kick an animal covered in a thick exoskeleton? Is that realistic? Also, how exactly are you kicking? Do you EMOTE frequently? If you kick unfairly, you have no right to whine when some one steals unfairly, when some one bashes unfairly, when some one throws or shoots an arrow unfairly, when some one scans unfairly, or even when a templar locks you in a room and has guards kill you without a single EMOTE. Twinkism breeds twinkism breeds twinkism, so in order to stop the cycle, people need to be more responsible in their use of twink-sensitive commands.

All in favor, say aye!

*Five Disgruntled Monkeys scamper off into the trees, thoroughly pleased with, what they feel was, a helpful post, as opposed to their usual gibberish*

[Carnage]

5-10 HP? Gimme a break. 10 HP is usually more than a 10th of someone's life. Against anyone without kick, that's basically a free tenth of their life that you don't have to fight them down if you only use kick -once- over what could be a long fight.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Carnage is right. My bad. Wasn't thinking straight... The absolute max should 5, and that should spawn a 'you send the gortok to the realm of Drov with a brutal kick to his kidneys', as opposed to the normal hit message. But I still had some good points, right... Right?!?

*The monkeys retreat to the jungle lair after hastily editing their post*

[Anonymous]

Question: What about if the one doing the kicking was wearing boots with spikes on them?
That should realistically do health damage...I don't know if that was taken into account but if not it should be.
Here's what I propose, how about making kick do stun damage only unless the kicker is wearing spiked boots, clawed shoes...stuff like that?
And how about a chance of a strong enough kick against someone who isn't too much heavier than you of the kick knocking them down?
Maybe do that and get rid of the bash skill since charging someone and trying to knock them down when they are swinging weapons at you is a bit foolish anyway.
Just a few ideas on the whole thing, as it stands I'm not too happy with the change to the kick skill, I think it needed to do less damage, but not that much less...if you kick someone in the face or the chest, knees, and a few other places...you can break bone, cartilage, and generally mess them up really bad with a single kick.
I've won many fights in real life with a single kick to the chest or the inside of their knee.
Some of those guys are still feeling the knee injuries from it.

[Gunslinger]

I'm against having any sort of equipment make the kick skill better than it is at the moment. I don't like the idea of who has the better equipment being such a deciding factor; a warrior with spiked gear can already beat an opponent who is more skilled due to the constant backhanding and whatnot. And Guest, the people you kicked likely weren't wearing suits of armor.

Another beef I had/have with the kick skill: try to kick someone with a suit of armor and dangerous melee weaponry while you have the same, and you're probably going to be losing that limb.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Gunslinger, you make a valid point, but the 'kick' skill is not actually a 'kick' to everyone. It could very well be hitting someone in the head with the flat or your blade, smashing them with your shield, or taking a sweep at their ankles or something. It's supposed to be an extra, somewhat under-handed attack. Of course, the code describes them as kung-fu like circle kicks... But up until a few weeks ago, the code would like to shout Banzai! during certain points in combat, and a few other silly things.

That silly, silly code!

[Gunslinger]

You're right, Monkeys; that had momentarily slipped my mind. I know that when I use the kick skill, I often emote hitting someone with the butt of my weapon or using an elbow or a headbutt, because I often feel that (especially with my character), kicking someone is silly in armed combat.

But my opinion on the importance of equipment still stands.

[Anonymous]

Those backhands and such you were speaking of don't really sway a fight that much, the damage is actually pretty damned minor from my experience.
It's more of a novelty thing than anything else.
I'd say how much the damage is but that's probably too IC.

[Anonymous]

Also, now that I think of it, you have to fighters with fairly equal skills...
one of them is better equiped than the other and would have a slight advantage.
You may not like it, but that's life.

[Rindan]

Equipment really is a minor factor in combat.  Don't be fooled into thinking that those Anakore gloves give you any sort of real edge once it is two skilled warriors at work against each other.  I snicker at the people who pay an organ for them thinking that it is any sort of edge.

I don't currently play a character with kick, but I have certainly played my fair share of skilled warriors.  If kick is acting like a melee attack and doing mostly stun damage, awesome.  That is exactly how it should be.  If you want to really hurt someone to the point where you are in danger of killing them, use a weapon.  Kick is a way to knock your opponent off balance, not an extra attack that code wise is more likely to hit when your weapon won't.  You have no idea how delighted I am at the though that Byn sparring won't be kick spamming any more.  

Further, it warms me to the bone to imagine that two skilled warriors no longer are going to be able to kick each other to death.  Anyone who has had a highly skilled warrior fight another highly skilled warrior knows that you beat the other guy by kicking him to death, as that is the only thing that slips through.  

Kicks might be 'an undered handed attack', but it is an underhanded attack with a part of your body that is not your weapon.  Unless you are a kung-fu master, that means that while you might knock with wind out of someone, they are not going to be any close to death.  That goes tripple if they are wearing armor.  If kick is doing mostly stun damage, then that simulates this perfectly.  Do your crazy underhanded attack, whatever it is, and knock them off balance.  If you want to hack off their head, use a sword.

[SailorMars]

Re: Rindan
Agree, agree agree, but...

I've seen some people that had a monster kick (good enough to reverse others) now bouncing off the unarmored, normal-looking elf's tough skin, or the plain-looking human's tough skin.

Just connecting good and solid with a booted kick against an unarmored foe -would- hurt.

I think something is off with the skill now... although the bug fix seems like a step in the right direction.

[Rindan]

I think that hitting most things should cause very minimal damage.  Most animals and most armor types would be fairly effective and deflecting any 'real' damage from a kick.   It might knock you off balance or knock the wind of out of you if the armor is light, but there would be no real damage, IE you might loose some stun points.

If kick isn't effective against a completely unarmored soft skinned opponent, then I tend to agree it needs to be fixed.  If you are good, you should be able to land that kick and have it be effective.  That said, I still feel it should be mostly stun damage, like any melee attack.  Kicking someone to death is very hard compared to killing them with a weapon.  If you kick someone (or any other unhanded attack with your body) unless you are doing ninja moves,  you are just going to knock the wind out of them or throwing them off balance.  You might be inflicting pain, but in terms of real 'make you bleed' damage, you are not doing much.  You can survive a guy kicking you for a minute while you are laying on the ground defenseless.  You might be a mess, but unless they get lucky and cause some internal bleeding in a bad spot, you will be ok.  If a guy works you over for a minute with a sword or a knife, you will be dead.

So, let kick me effective and taking away some stun points if it hits an unarmored spot.  Other wise, bouncing off armor should be a common thing.  Fix it so that you can kick an unarmored man while he is down and do some stun damage, and I think kick will be perfect.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Stun damage may be realistic, fine. But my big beef is that now kick is a useless skill. Unless I spam the crap out of kick, there is no way I'm going to get some one to fall unconscious. And, if I'm correct, spamming was why this code change was brought up.

You -can- damage some one when you kick them (punch, hit 'em with an elbow, hit 'em with a shiled, hit 'em with the blunt side of a weapon, what-have-you). You can bust a nose, cause internal bleeding, crack a rib or toe or finger, poke out or scratch an eye... You hit some one hard enough in the head, and they can suffer some serious brain damage, and quite easily, death. As my health teacher used to say, "Don't hit some one unless you want to kill them."

However, you're not going to splinter some one's spine every time you toss out a kick. Therefore, these code changes are a -good- thing. I honestly think so. But I'd really rather see this skill retain at least -some- usefullness, and to me, usefullness is health damage. If you want to up the difficulty for the skill, fine, but the difficulty should be even with it's rewards. It would be, for example, changing the stonecarving skill, making it nearly impossible to make an item. And, when you did manage to make an item, it's only worth 2 'sid. What's the point? I'm starting to wonder 'what's the point' with kick, myself... Whatever, I won't get into it.

I'd like to see the skill 'kick' retain some of it's usefullness.

[flurry]

Just offering my 2 cents...

Kick for me has been completely normal*, at least the last two RL days.   And I don't have an exceptionally experienced kicker, by any stretch.    

So it sure sounds like a bug for certain PCs and not a global thing.



* I should point out that when I say "completely normal", I don't actually know if the effect in terms of hp/stun damage is the same.    The messages don't seem to be different though - I'm not bouncing off tough skin.   It's usually either a miss or some kind of solid blow.

[X-D]

Well, since saturday kick seems to be working basicly normaly though I have no idea on damage.

[Pungee]

You know... I was avoiding this thread. I thought it was a little too drawn out for the 'kick' skill since in like a day it hit 3 pages of replies  :shock:

Then someone brought up the obvious about the skill, that it was melee damage and it takes some time to get really hurt from it. Weeeel now its time for everyones favorite show, My Two Sids!!!  

I'm a big guy. 5'10", 200 lbs. A weightlifter, very amateur boxer, played a lot of sports and been in a few fights. In short, I'm not new to getting the shit knocked out of me by various methods. I've even had a moron for a spotter a few times and ended up with 200+lbs of metal pounding into my chest. So, I'd like to think I know what it's like to be hurt.

I almost completely agreed with, Rindan I think it was, until I realized what -I- can do with my legs. I've done a couple of kickboxing classes, thats it. So I know the BARE minimum physics for kicking. Everytime the game tells me 'your slow kick is easily avoided' I think of me doing a hip-kick IRL. Slow, clumsy. The thing is, I can apply about 500-600 lbs of slow force from each leg. I've never had my kicking force measured, but I bet its a bit more than what I can lift with my leg. Slow, yes, clumsy, god yes, a bit goofy looking, of course. Painless and undamaging, not in the least. A kick to the face, when landed, by someone like me would probably snap your neck back hard enough to make you say 'what the hell just hit me?'. To the ribs, your entire ribcage would buckle pretty easily. Not saying it would break, ribs are flexible for a reason, but you'd be hurting and it'd give me a few seconds to put you on the ground. If you're on the ground and I decide to kick you... well it's over because I'll probably stomp your head into a pancake. Now, keep in mind... that's me. Someone who can't kick very well and compared to a big-ass war-hammer wielding warrior is a weak little pansy.

Now lets think about what an experienced warrior could do to you with a couple of well-placed kicks. He'd be really strong, stronger than I am for sure, and probably would be aiming for your sternum (which could kill you in one good shot) and your head and neck (which would knock you senseless or unconcsious or maybe even kill you).

What's my point to this little rant about how the big bad guy could maim you with a kick? I'd say keep kick as it is now (I've used it and don't see a problem with the changes) until you get it to high levels of skill. Once there, you should be able to do some hardcore damage if you have enough strength.

That's all for now folks!

[Flaming Ocotillo]

The kick skill now appears to be fixed and is once again doing HP and stun damage.

PCs and NPCs can still be killed by a kick attack, as usual.

I believe the major changes were only related to kicking against armor.

and probably would be aiming for your sternum ... and your head and neck

Said badass warrior though, would probably be wearing mekillot leather pants, bone greaves, or any other assortment of heavy leg wear. I do martial arts (Granted, I'm not big in any sense, except for tall, skinny, ya ya, or even very good) and when I kick in say... no pants, to gi pants, to jeans, it makes a very big difference in speed, and -especially- in height. I can normally kick to people's heads, just by virtue of my height, but put a heavy, tight(ish) pair of jeans on me, I'm going to have trouble reaching the head of someone my own size. Put bigass leather jeans on me, or ten pounds of bone on each leg, you can bet your bippy I'm not kicking past the groin. But then again... that's always a good shot to the groin...

Anyway, my point, these badass Zalanthan warriors that are uberArnolds, can and often do wear -much- heavier armor, because they can, and this I think would impede their kicking ability. If this is coded in, that's fantastic, if it's not, then you'll have to assume this armor stuff is the reason you don't kick to the head much, or do whollops of damage.

[Twilight]

I didn't read quite all of the responses but...

Personally, I'd like size, rather than strength, to be factored into kick damage using size bands.  So a human kicking a tregil might get a damage bonus, no bonus against another human, a disadvantage against a half giant, and a huge disadvantage against a silt horror.  Scale it so that the half giant has relative advantages/disadvantages to the same size scale etc.  By using size in conjuction with armor values like they just implemented, you can tone down the armor value side of the equation, and have them work together to account for the relatively thick armor of most larger beasts, and the thinner armor of say, a tregil.

[Pungee]

Well, I'd think that Tony has an extremely valid point about what causes your speed and damage abiltiies to be slowed except that I know a girl who's a blackbelt (she's a cowgirl too... go figure) and she's snapped a few kicks at my face when she was playing around (yes, she pulled them and no I hadn't pissed her off   ) and well she was wearing a pair of extremely tight wranglers (blue jeans) at the time and she didn't have a problem getting her kick delivered with extreme speed and the appropriate height to knock me in the forehead if she'd connected. Not to mention she had on boots too... This impressed me and makes me think that if you're good enough and strong enough (she rode horses in some rodeo comps sometimes so she had VERY strong legs) that it's not going to matter too much what you're wearing.  

of extremely tight wranglers (blue jeans) at the time

While those would stop me, a... well, average kicker as far as martial arts go, no, they don't stop her, the better you get, the less leg encumbrance will matter, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Joe Newbie, or even Joe Upper-average would probably still have a tough time landing higher kicks in heavy leg armor. Of course, as they improve, the armor matters less and less, to a point.

[Callisto]

I didn't read quite all of the responses but...

Personally, I'd like size, rather than strength, to be factored into kick damage using size bands.  So a human kicking a tregil might get a damage bonus, no bonus against another human, a disadvantage against a half giant, and a huge disadvantage against a silt horror.

This is a fantastic idea, actually. It would suck if NPC's got the same type of values though, since NPCs can kick every round and those half-giant soldiers - or god forbid the guardians - have super huge strength and moderate to high skill levels.

Still, I like the idea.

I've deleted several posts in this thread for being wildly off topic.  Flipping people shit for how they post has no place on the GDB, and comparing package size can go into the OOC forum or to private messages.

The kick skill was not changed to stop people spamming it.  I don't believe that was every said in a staff post, weekly update, or MOTD.

It was changed because natural armor wasn't being taken into account.  In fact the more natural armor a character had the more damage they were taking from kick - so the exact opposite of what was intended.

Minor changes were made to damage blocked by worn armor, as well.

-the Shade of Nessalin