Prostitution - Expectations?

[Nahara]

Man, it's kind of funny to see people worked up about spending 100 sids on a fade.

Most hookers I've seen have gone anywhere from 300 to 1000.

Average seems to be 300-400.

... what... the fuck... are people doing charging over a month's wages for decently ranked employees in well-paid organizations?

Selling their bodies. The value of something is what someone is willing to pay. Can see a RL prostitute charging a few thousand dollars without any trouble. Can imagine one charging five dollars. Perhaps most folk would rather play the successful courtesan than the whore giving handjobs for pocket change in a back alley, and therefore the average is tilted rather to the high side.

At fifty sid, the 'sid will pay for enough food and water to last through the scene and not much more. At a small, you're affordable and maybe actually able to make a living on it. At two, you're respectable... three to a large seems to be moving into luxury-good territory, and any higher and I tip my hat to your reputation and talent for marketing among the rich circles.

Regardless of the profession of character I'm playing, most everyone I encounter in situations calling for it are kind enough to ask for consent, and I am often pleasantly surprised or pleasantly disappointed as the scene progresses. (On the lines of, I was expecting to be brutalized, where's my brutalizing?) But just because you ask for consent on something doesn't mean you -have- to continue on to do it, I can live with a little unpredictability.   And just because I'm in the mood to have my criminal tortured/prostitute sexed up/captive raped/mutant mutilated doesn't mean I can insist the person in control of the situation does so....
Player 1 OOC: Consent to mutilate me granted.
Player 2 OOC: Okay, I wasn't planning on it, but I'll remember if I decide I want to?

...Huh, I got from having a firm opinion to wandering off on idle daydreams involving the silliness of reverse consent.

[caellyndria]

I can't believe this thread is still going, and I can't believe I'm replying, but I think I have a point/suggestion that hasn't been mentioned!

As for my personal opinion part, as everyone in this thread is entitled to: I would never personally play a prostitute because I don't want to RP sex with players I don't have an OOC comfort zone built up with. However, if people want all the roleplay aspects of playing one (and there are very real and valid ones) without explicit sex roleplay, that's perfectly fine. It's not up to us to dictate comfort zones people -should- have, or tell people how to play the game. That's what documentation is for.

Now, my suggestion: Sex roleplay doesn't have to be all or nothing, down and dirty or not at all. People have mentioned that fading takes away putting PCs in vulnerable or compromising positions (no pun intended). It is very possible to do nicely done roleplay "glosses" without being explicit that still would leave opportunities for robbing, beating, stealing, crying during sex, etc. to be played out. OOC is a tool that can be used to communicate things like this also. You can say, for instance, that you're down to roleplay sex, but would like it to be vague and not cringe-worthy explicit because you're not comfortable with that. And the other person can go with it, or you two can just decide to fade, or whatever! It still leaves the opening for the whole "vulnerable" aspect of sex and sexuality, which in my opinion, can be excellent RP, all the actual sex act aside.

Just a tidbit!

[Zoltan]

I've paid for a fade or two in the past, happily. I can say that even though I've mudsexxxed it up with the best of them in the past, I'd probably never play a prostitute. The reality of the mindset is not something I'm interested in playing out (though it made for great background, once), and I personally like to avoid the "is selling sex IC actually selling mudsex?" question entirely.

As to pricing, gawd. Even my one rich, whore-hungry character could seldom bring himself to justify paying too much above a small for -anything- sexual. Not to mention -everyone- immediately seems to get their fingers in the whore (hur hur) as an informant, which seems odd for your average hooker, but what can I say? Even my average grebbers/dung-shovelers tend to be far from average. Just the nature of the game.

One thing that always kind of bugged me (and believe me, I'm not a super-conservative dude or anything), is how readily PCs seem to be to sell their bodies sometimes. In a world like Zalanthas, it seems to me that your body is sometimes the only thing you actually -own-. Giving up that last teensy shred of dignity and control seems like it should be incredibly damaging and tough, in my opinion. And you know what? It just may be for most of those PCs, and I don't see it because I'm out chopping up motherfuckers with bone swords.  And it could be that people tend towards an idealized look at prostitution. Though now that I think of it, I've seen some people illustrate the brutality of it wonderfully...

[Barzalene]

I've had pcs try to explain to my pcs that there was no reason they shouldn't whore. It was annoying. In some cases it felt like people were saying Hey look at me! I read the docs! Well, hello, I read the docs too, and not being a whore is as valid as not being a guard or a cook or hunter.

[Akaramu]

I've had pcs try to explain to my pcs that there was no reason they shouldn't whore. It was annoying. In some cases it felt like people were saying Hey look at me! I read the docs! Well, hello, I read the docs too, and not being a whore is as valid as not being a guard or a cook or hunter.

I've found that annoying too. Not only explanations, but very negative reactions to someone having reasons for not whoring.

[Is Friday]

Are character not allowed to have opinions anymore?

[a strange shadow]

Sometimes characters state their opinions as if it's an OOC lecture from the player.

Maybe that's not the way it's intended, but it comes across that way.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Man, it's kind of funny to see people worked up about spending 100 sids on a fade.

Most hookers I've seen have gone anywhere from 300 to 1000.

Average seems to be 300-400.

... what... the fuck... are people doing charging over a month's wages for decently ranked employees in well-paid organizations?

5 skins of water at the temple of the dragon.

Just sayin.

Or: 2 skins of water, 3 pieces of fruit, and 20 sid.

Seriously. It seems like a lot on that pay grade, but if you look at it in accordance to the price of living, it's really not much.

In ancient greece, it was average for the BOTTOM of the heap, absolutely hideous, worn-out prostitutes to charge the price of 2 loaves of bread, and it would typically range up to the price of ten loaves.

I think the pricing is realistic, in that sense. Most of the pc prostitutes who get any action are not going to be absolutely hideous, worn out, and bad at what they do.

Amanda is right - if you play a prostitute, you should be prepared to play the ensuing couplings.

No one is ever obligated to roleplay out sex.  Ever.  Posts like those can mislead people into believing otherwise.

I did not mean to imply that it was a necessity, only to share my opinion on the matter, personally. Hence the disclaimers.

To add to my previous post:

Use common sense.  Don't play roles that will put you in positions you will feel uncomfortable with.

If you don't like having strict guidelines and being responsible for other PCs and doing OOC reports, don't apply for leadership roles.
If you don't feel comfortable with racism being directed toward you, don't play a half-elf.
If you don't like being stuck in the wilderness for long periods of time, don't app a non-ranger.
If you don't like the confines of the walls, don't join the Byn.
If you don't like the tediousness of the crafting code, don't play a crafting merchant.
If you don't like roleplaying alone, don't play in Red Storm, the Sewers or Gielgias.
If you don't like the idea of torture, don't app a maniacal serial killer who likes to torture his victims before doing them in.
If you don't like being in virtual sexual situations, don't apply for a virtual sex dealer.

My opinion in all of the above. Hence why I don't play warriors or burglars. I don't enjoy sparring, and I don't enjoy breaking into other people's apartments.

Um, depends. A concubine's main job isn't sex..however a prostitute's is, pretty much by definition. And sex can vary from a night in someone's apartment, totally naked, exposed, avialable for easy backstabbing during the throbbing whatevers of sweaty lust, or as quick and easy as a blow-job in a back alley, which would leave the prostitute vulnerable, because she'd be the one on her knees (or he).

But yes, that IS the main function of a prostitute. To provide sexual services for his/her customers. That's what makes him/her a prostitute, and not a hunter, or an armor merchant, or a noble, or a bartender, or a clothier. A prostitute might make pretty silk clothing as a hobby, or on the side. And a hunter might sell sexual favors. But a hunter's primary job, is being a hunter. And a prostitute's primary job, is selling sex.

Couldn't agree more.

I don't disagree with that Lizzie. Again, a prostitute sells sex, but doesn't sell mudsex. That is my point. A prostitute can RP his/her trade without going into mudsex. It can be all about RPing the other aspects of being a prostitute, and fading through the sex. The sex is still there; it's just not roleplayed, because it doesn't have to be roleplayed, ever.

While I agree that it doesn't have to be, I think, as I said earlier, that you shouldn't pick a concept where you are uncomfortable plying the meat of their trade. Simply because it's not coded doesn't make it any less the meat of their trade.

Sure you don't have to roleplay it, ever. But I would be pissed at a prostitute's player who insisted on an FTB. Not because I didn't get to have mudsex, but because it would aggravate me. Much as hiring a hunter who never hunted. Or a merchant who never crafted anything.

I understand one results in a coded good and the other results in rp only. Now imagine taking the rp away, much as you would take the coded good away.

And THAT is what aggravates me about it.

No, it's not fair, and it's not right. But if I'm hiring a prostitute, which I have done on more than one occasion in the past, I generally request a fade, go afk for a cigarette, then hash the details out when I get back. But, personally, I DO feel it should be my option to choose to fade there, rather than an enforced option of the player of the sex worker to deprive the scene of RP that I may or may not want to play through. And yes, if you do fade, as a pc prostitute, my character's probably going to say 'Hey, they were mediocre. I'm gonna pay a different skank next time.'

[Booya]

What if the player of the prostitute just doesn't feel like mudsexing that day? Or thinks your mudsexing style is whack and doesn't want to do it with you? Or suspects you're fourteen years old?

But needs to the sids to keep alive their character/concept.

You're really saying they should do it anyway because they're playing a whore? Or log out? Or store?

Ludicrous.

[AmandaGreathouse]

No, I'm not. I'm saying that if you want to ftb 90+% of the time, chances are, you are uncomfortable with mudsex. And if you are uncomfortable participating in sexual scenarios IC, it is MY OPINION that you should not, generally, be playing a prostitute.

Not that you should be FORCED to roleplay it out. Not that you should log out. And finally, not that you should store.

I never said any of those things.

[netflix]

I think in a scenario with a male client and a female whore, if the male wants to fade, let him do his fade emote. The as the whore does her fade emote, she should slip in that she was secretly packing a hefty tandu sausage.

The studly fellow drops his pants and rocks your world.

emote Dropping her pants as well, @ shows you a -big- surpise, and then proceeds to rock your world in return.

[Nahara]

Hmm. Another reason to keep around a bit of that starting gear.

[Barzalene]

What if the player of the prostitute just doesn't feel like mudsexing that day? Or thinks your mudsexing style is whack and doesn't want to do it with you? Or suspects you're fourteen years old?

But needs to the sids to keep alive their character/concept.

You're really saying they should do it anyway because they're playing a whore? Or log out? Or store?

Ludicrous.

That's pretty cogent. And things I had not thought of.

[BlackMagic0]

I do not think the issue here is that whores are over pricing.
I think everyone else is under paid. I always thought that though.

Then again those people get water and food for their work. Which is one reason they get paid crap.


Soo... Start paying hookers in food/water then guys!


"So.. how about a handjob, half a skin of water? Ad sex three skins of water, mm?"

[AmandaGreathouse]

I do not think the issue here is that whores are over pricing.
I think everyone else is under paid. I always thought that though.

Then again those people get water and food for their work. Which is one reason they get paid crap.


Soo... Start paying hookers in food/water then guys!


"So.. how about a handjob, half a skin of water? Ad sex three skins of water, mm?"

Done it.

And I'd like to see it more, even. I think it'd add a lot to the feel of the world. Though your spice addict whores might not be down so much for it.

[FantasyWriter]

I think in a scenario with a male client and a female whore, if the male wants to fade, let him do his fade emote. The as the whore does her fade emote, she should slip in that she was secretly packing a hefty tandu sausage.

The studly fellow drops his pants and rocks your world.

emote Dropping her pants as well, @ shows you a -big- surpise, and then proceeds to rock your world in return.

I think that's all good.  I just think that a PC prostitute that ALWAYS fades has it relatively easy compared to the people that have to actually spend TIME earning their sid.

[Lizzie]

Amanda brings up a point...

when you're a merchant, you have the code to show your customer that goods and sids were exchanged.

when you're a hunter, you have the code to show that critters are dead and you have meat/hides/bone or a failed attempt to show for your coded efforts.

when you're a prostitute selling sex, all you have, are emotes. There is no code to back up sex. If that is your main method of earning coded sids, then your customer isn't paying for a bit of turquoise, or a striped yellow and tan skin, or a gourd of water, or a glow-crystal, or a silk gown. The customer is paying for what can -only- be provided, via emotes.

If you fade, you deprive the customer of what they paid for. If you need to fade in such detail that the customer's player can easily describe exactly what happened, then you're not really fading at all. You're just narrating the details OOCly instead of using emotes.

It just seems pretty pointless to play someone whose primary job revolves around sex, if you are unwilling to -ever- actually act it out. If you go into the role knowing in advance that you will ALWAYS fade, then why bother at all? Why not just play something else, where you don't have to always fade, where you can feel comfortable actually roleplaying out what you're doing?

[Qzzrbl]

In summation, if you're gonna play a whore who doesn't play out the scenes....

Go right ahead.

Just don't expect much business from people who -want- to play them out.

[Barzalene]

I think, in case anyone wondered that my initial reaction was that choosing to play a whore but not expecting sex to be a part of that was counterintuitive. I think there are other roles where you would do many of the things that a whore might rp without the explicit expectation of sex.

That said, I'm not going to try to tell other people what to play or not to. And I think that fading should never preclude payment.

But mostly, I'm surprised that people are so invested in the argument. Some people will fade a lot, some people will mudsex a lot, and the mud will go out as it does, as it has, as it will. This doesn't seem like a big deal.

[Niamh]

I think in a scenario with a male client and a female whore, if the male wants to fade, let him do his fade emote. The as the whore does her fade emote, she should slip in that she was secretly packing a hefty tandu sausage.

The studly fellow drops his pants and rocks your world.

emote Dropping her pants as well, @ shows you a -big- surpise, and then proceeds to rock your world in return.

I think that's all good.  I just think that a PC prostitute that ALWAYS fades has it relatively easy compared to the people that have to actually spend TIME earning their sid.

ICly, they've both worked just as hard and spent time earning their money.

[flurry]

In my opinion, a prostitute character who routinely fades is perfectly valid. Let me explain why. Think about another form of roleplay, namely film acting. There are numerous examples of prostitute roles which have resulted in Oscar nominations and awards. I bet in most cases there was nothing beyond a FTB, if even that much. Is a prostitute role in a movie pointless if there's no on-screen sex? I think the answer is no. (On a side note, I'm not suggesting that awards are the best measure of quality acting. What I am saying is that there is a history of substantial prostitute roles that needn't depict sex at all.)

My point is there may be other reasons the role is worthwhile other than roleplayed sex. Maybe the occupation is essential to the role, but the depiction of the intimate scenes is not.

Finally, on the issue of payment. It's natural to wonder how can anyone expect a prostitute character to be paid if they're always going to fade. But as others have said, the payment is not in exchange for mudsex. I have a feeling some people find the payment part objectionable because the prostitute character is getting something for nothing. In other words, it might seem like that character is somehow gaming the system by getting paid without "earning" it. What I'd say to that is that being paid is a necessity to a character's survival. As I said before, there may be valid reasons to play that kind of role that have nothing at all to do with sex. Yet for the role to continue on, at some point some actual coins (or food and water) have to be entering the picture.

No one's going to play a prostitute to try to game the economy somehow. Some coins are just necessary to keep the role going forward. When I hear talk about "virtual coins" it just sounds like an effort to punish other players, or even manipulate them into not fading. And really what that means is a player is being punished for opting to play something outside of the typical palette of characters. (It's like people wondering why there aren't more bards, and then they don't pay bards, but I digress.) In any case, utilizing the services of a prostitute character is always optional. Still, I think it's good to support players who want to play something different.

[Synthesis]

Everyone knows prostitutes are just a way to get people behind locked doors so you can PK them.

[Is Friday]

If I hire a prostitute and they don't mudsex with me, I'm going to start filing player complaints. Just like I file player complaints on people that don't agree to torture scenes.

[FantasyWriter]

I think in a scenario with a male client and a female whore, if the male wants to fade, let him do his fade emote. The as the whore does her fade emote, she should slip in that she was secretly packing a hefty tandu sausage.

The studly fellow drops his pants and rocks your world.

emote Dropping her pants as well, @ shows you a -big- surpise, and then proceeds to rock your world in return.

I think that's all good.  I just think that a PC prostitute that ALWAYS fades has it relatively easy compared to the people that have to actually spend TIME earning their sid.

ICly, they've both worked just as hard and spent time earning their money.

So are these also kosher?

Code Select Expand

>south
East of the Scion Gates
Some figures in Kadian hunting abas are hear riding various mounts.

>weather west
The weather looks pretty rough out there.

>ooc Um.  I don't feel comfortable putting myself in a position that my PC might get lost
or eaten by a pack of kryl, so peace out.. see you when you guys get back for payday.

>north

Code Select Expand


The eloquently dressed noble sits at a small table near the door.

>tell noble (dipping his head respectfully) Are you ready Chosen Lord?

The eloquently dressed noble nods simply removing the cord from his ponytail to let his hair fall down about his shoulders.

>emote cuts %noble hair and holds his hand out for payment.

The eloquently dressed noble just blinks.

OOC: sorry, I don't really have time to cut emote out cutting your hair today.

Should these two people get paid the same as someone who had 1. gone out hunting with the group and took the same chances they did or 2. actually spent a few minutes to describe how they were fulfilling their non-code-supported trades and sent the PC a short Tdesc describing their hair?

Apart from the requirement that people roleplay realistically here, there are few restrictions on roleplay in Armageddon. If you choose to roleplay adult situations, that is fine. However, before instigating such an act with another player, please OOC to make sure that the roleplay is consented to. If someone is instigating roleplay that makes you (the player) uncomfortable, please OOC that they should stop. If they continue despite being told to stop, please wish up. This rule is not meant to be abused in order to allow characters to escape death/torture/etc., but is intended for adult situations, such as torture or rape, which some players and staff may not wish to witness. If you act out a graphic sequence without first obtaining the other player's consent, and the player then complains within a reasonable amount of time (so that the runlogs can be checked and the complaint verified), you will be permanently banned.

Do I expect for a prostitute to act out a scene if they don't want to? No, I don't.  It would be wrong of me to expect otherwise and I should be permanently banned as the rules state.
Should ANYONE (be they prostitutes, hunters, barbers, assassins, grebbers, magickers or persons of any other trade) expect to be paid every time for virtual services rendered when there are other PCs of the exact same trade out there spending the time and taking the risk to earn the same sid for the same job? No, it would be wrong of them to take advantage of Players like that.

[Delstro]

I always have been entertained by the length of Mudsex. It doesn't have to last a day and night. It can just be a down and dirty alleyway ballfest, if that is what you want.