[Ignore this one]C-elvrangerstuff

[Qzzrbl]

Why aren't these allowed?

What happened to "play the character, not the guild"?

[Rhyden]

I've never really understood this.

Though to be fair, any city elf ranger tribe would be considered a desert elf tribe, technically.

I say let city-elves be rangers. I doubt they would survive much longer than other city-elf classes. Maybe exchange their ride skill for something else. And a city-elf in the desert? C'mon, that's going to provide at least a few hilarious results.

[Ashes]

I've never really understood this.

Though to be fair, any city elf ranger tribe would be considered a desert elf tribe, technically.

I say let city-elves be rangers. I doubt they would survive much longer than other city-elf classes. Maybe exchange their ride skill for something else. And a city-elf in the desert? C'mon, that's going to provide at least a few hilarious results.

There's some serious hilarity in the desert-dwelling city-elf stories I've heard.

[spawnloser]

City elves are, by definition, people that grew up in the city.

Rangers are, by definition, people that grew up going out into the wilds.

They don't mix.  Just like d.elves can't be a 'city guild' like pick pockets, burglars or assasins, those c.elves can't be rangers.  That's just how it is.  You missed playing a halfling too, didn't you?  They were even more restricted.  (Well, except back during the early early days of Arm when it was still H&S.)

[Jingo]

Assassin/rebel is an extremely versatile guild combo. Especially with city elves.

[Spoon]

City elves already kick ass with their guild options compared to d-elves. Elaborating on "play the character, not the guild": Rangers are masters of the wilderness, having spent most of their life travelling through it. A city elf who did this is no longer a city elf, so I'd suggest special apping a solo d-elf. City elves get bonus skills because they have spent their life in the city, and it makes no sense for a ranger to have developed these skills.

It's perfectly possible to play a city elf that spends some time in the desert. Lots of people have snide guffaws at the idea, but their city elves obviously weren't harcore enough. They certainly have a major handicap though.

[RogueGunslinger]

That's the thing though. Staff would never accept a solo d-elf app. So where are all the elves alone, in the wilderness? Surely there are some?

[Spoon]

I guess they're virtual. I also guess not having playable solo d-elves is a work around to cosolidate d-elves and avoid abuse?

[solera]

Aren't there city wildernesses too?

[jmordetsky]

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that C-Elf shouldn't be rangers. My feeling/understanding is that there was more to being a c-elf vs a d-elf then where you "grew" up. I've thought it more as an evolutionary branch. C-Elves lost the ability to run the way D-elfs do genetically. Ie, a C-Elf who sprinted every day in the desert would not eventually build d-elf abilities. I could be wrong on that though, staff opinion invited.

From a playability point of view I don't see a C-Elf ranger as a threat. To be fair - it'd probably be the hardest life you've ever had. Desert life with no mount and no desert run? Ouch.  And it would make logical sense the after seeing a few of his buddies butchered for stealing an elf might consider mining as a viable alternative.

I can't really see any objective reason why this wouldn't be allowed.

[mansa]

I think the class+guild combination hasn't changed in over 10 years, and since you now have SUBCLASSES, it doesn't really matter anymore, in my opinion.
Same with DELF being assassins.

[jhunter]

I'm fine with it the way it is but I wouldn't complain if those class limitations regarding city/desert elves were changed. *shrugs*

[jmordetsky]

I'm fine with it the way it is but I wouldn't complain if those class limitations regarding city/desert elves were changed. *shrugs*

Yea, same. I don't think the game is suffering, but meh, why is it even there?

[Thunkkin]

My first character was the son of a failed Allanaki rug merchant.  He grew up all his life in the city and he wanted to get away, sometimes.

Strangely, I was allowed to pick guild ranger, even though he'd lived all his life in the city.

[jstorrie]

If c-elves could be rangers and d-elves could be city-sneaks, there wouldn't be much differentiation between the two other than d-elves' racial perks. The separation is pretty important, I think.

I'm told that once, long ago, you could pick c-elf ranger during character creation and sometimes staff wouldn't notice to reject your app. Then X-D got a city elf ranger-thief and won at the game so hard that Muk cried and now staff know not to let it happen ever again.

[Qzzrbl]

It's not exactly like any c-elf rangers would be by any means "masters of the wilderness", considering they can't ride mounts, and they can't run in the desert like d-elves can.

People have found workarounds to make pseudo-rangers with c-elves using certain guild/subguild combinations anyhow, so I don't see why you can't just go ahead and make a city-bound elf with ranger skills.

Saying rangers are only "wilderness masters" is like saying only pickpockets and burglars are thieves, when a warrior can be just as much a thief as anybody else.

C-elves can already go out and hunt within their range of a safe place as it is anyhow, so it's really not like giving them ranger skills would change terribly much. They'd still -never- stack up to d-elves or rangers of any other race.

::Edit:: I'm gonna add a couple of poll options to see what some of the less-vocal folks on the GDB think.

:::Edit::: Couldn't figure out how to change this one into a poll, so go here. http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,38596.0.html

[number13]

Pick half-elf.  Choose the elf appearance.  Give yourself an 'elf' sdesc. Ranger guild, linguist subguild if you want to speak perfect alludean from the start.  Refuse to ride mounts.

[Oleupata]

That's the thing though. Staff would never accept a solo d-elf app. So where are all the elves alone, in the wilderness? Surely there are some?

They're dead.

[Gagula]

That's the thing though. Staff would never accept a solo d-elf app. So where are all the elves alone, in the wilderness? Surely there are some?

They're dead.

Aww.....you didn't give me time to queue up the appropriate music....we'll just have to settle for a dun-dun-duuuuun!

[Pale Horse]

From what I can remember of the past discussions concerning C-elves and D-elves, there is no genetic difference between the two.  They are the same race, just brought up in different environments.  Due to a d-elf's "growing up years" spent outside all the time, they develop the ability to run as all d-elves do.  It has to be done while as a youngster or an elf will never develop the ability.  "C-elves" that leave the city at such a young age and manage to somehow join a d-elf tribe could theoretically develop the elvish running prowess.  But, then, they would be coded as a desert elf.

[Sinna]

I always enjoyed the thought of a young city elf kind of staring out of the gates of a city wishing he were able to keep up with the rugged tribals he meets, knowing her legs aren't strong enough and that knowing hurting her pride.  In dejection she would return to her city-tribal life and the things she does know, impoverished in spirit but struggling on for the people she calls family.

It's one of the ways I like to separate the city from the desert elves.  I think their mentality is quite different.  Perhaps the city elf feels himself to be far more urbane and educated compared to those hicks infested with sand-lice and dust lung.  The city elf is superior, perhaps, because he has adapted.  Another way.

In any case, I think it's far more than about running ability.  The mentality that comes from either lifestyle must color that elf significantly.

[Jingo]

What I don't get is why there is no inbetween? The docs would suggest that elven tribes are constantly on the move, entering cities, leaving cities, fragmenting and reformulating.

So why aren't there any first generation desert elf immigrants around? Why aren't there any desert elves that have family that moved to the city?

[Synthesis]

I'm not going to argue about cultural differences between city-elves and desert-elves, because I don't think any of that has anything to do with a ranger's skillset.

Guild Ranger     (Character)

A ranger possesses two primary abilities: to aptly find their way even in storm or darkness, and to stalk and kill prey (for food). Because of the emphasis on these two things, rangers are often greatly sought after as companions in the desert.

Storms aren't unique to the desert, and neither is darkness.  Stalking and killing prey isn't unique to the desert, either.

Ranger skills involve hunting persons or animals, exceptional powers of observation, a strong aptitude for archery, and some moderate skill with weapons. Exceptional rangers are able to move silently and remain unseen in the wilderness, detect sounds from far away, work with poisons, and parry enemy blows. Rangers are also often able to rescue friends from deadly situations, bandage serious wounds, and have a well-known rapport with animals, and can ride beasts of burden from the beginning.

The only thing in this paragraph that a city-elf couldn't do in the city is ride, since wilderness sneak and hide (supposedly, at least) also work to a certain extent in the city.  Furthermore, since a city-elf wouldn't be exceptionally good at running, it seems like they might have a little extra incentive to be stealthy when outside the city.

While apparently an astonishing array of abilities, rangers are far poorer at combat than warriors, and their skills with poisons and healing powers are actually quite modest.

Rangers are usually the second easiest persons to employ, next to warriors. Any traveller would be a fool to neglect to take a ranger along as a guide, and good rangers can make large sums of money in this profession. In addition, rangers are excellent scouts and spies, able to eavesdrop without being noticed. If nothing else, rangers are superior hunters and can typically feed themselves in such places as the Grey Forest (q.v.), and can bring back skins of animals to sell.

See also:
   forage, Grey_Forest, guilds, skin

Here is one possible solution:  allow city-elves to pick the ranger guild, but change the hunt, sneak, hide, scan, and listen skills to their city-based versions.  Let everything else remain the same, and all of a sudden you have a useful guild that makes sense.  Basically, they would be assassins minus backstab (although the thug subguild would perhaps be an appropriate choice) with better archery, instead (which can be just as devastating, really).

Looking at the ranger skill tree, the only two skills that a city-elf wouldn't ever have a reason to use inside the city are charge and trample, for obvious reasons.  I think that is a strong enough case for letting them pick ranger, regardless of whatever the "ranger" guild is supposed to entail from a roleplay perspective.  Not all assassins assassinate, not all burglars burgle, not all pickpockets pick pockets, not all warriors go to war, and not all rangers range.

[Sinna]

Synth, that's a great idea!  +1

[RogueGunslinger]

Synth, that's a great idea!  +1

+2