Economy

[Synthesis]

I don't see why it's a problem that some clanned characters lie, cheat, and steal to get ahead.  This is Zalanthas, after all.

[Rhyden]

Big meh on my part. The newb indies hoarding all the sids always meet their end, and their successors tend to claim their huge loot. On the flip side, I find playing a dirt-poor realistic Zalanthan much more enjoyable than the vastly successful wealthy merchant. That being said, clannies could afford to get some increased pay. When prices of items and food goes up, so should salaries.

[Lizzie]

I don't see why it's a problem that some clanned characters lie, cheat, and steal to get ahead.  This is Zalanthas, after all.

I don't see why it's a problem either. I don't think anyone has said it's a problem. No one has said that lying, cheating, or stealing to get ahead, is a problem. See, there's this perceived problem that independents have proportionately too much wealth, too easily, in comparison to their clanned counterparts. Mr. Goulet suggests that to counter this, clanned people get paid more, and then they won't need to go outside their clan for more. My rebuttal, is that paying them more won't prevent them from going outside their clan to get more anyway.

There's nothing wrong with clanned employees lying, cheating, and stealing to get ahead. I just don't think that rewarding characters with bonuses will prevent the lying, cheating, stealing, as Mr. Goulet suggests it will.

[Jdr]

I say money should go to the top, and trickle down. Both cities have a method similar to that kind of economy (northies and their partisans, Allanak with their emphasis on open corruption), and the higher ranked you are, the more able you are to take in money and hold onto it (less predators higher up the food chain). So with that said, in clans, the money starts at the top and trickles down. And that's how it ideally should be.

[Aaron Goulet]

I say money should go to the top, and trickle down. Both cities have a method similar to that kind of economy (northies and their partisans, Allanak with their emphasis on open corruption), and the higher ranked you are, the more able you are to take in money and hold onto it (less predators higher up the food chain). So with that said, in clans, the money starts at the top and trickles down. And that's how it ideally should be.

My concern is that, outside of the Great Merchant Houses, money really doesn't trickle down.  In most Noble House clans I've participated in, employees are expected to live off of their automatically paid wages, and bonuses are rarely (if ever) paid based on performance.  This amount is insufficient, given the actual price of goods in-game. 

Of course, this is based somewhat on anecdotal evidence, so if someone else can point to a few examples where Noble House employees did well for themselves without making money from grebbing or a side profession and explain how they did it, I'd like to hear about it.

I don't see why it's a problem that some clanned characters lie, cheat, and steal to get ahead.  This is Zalanthas, after all.

I don't see why it's a problem either. I don't think anyone has said it's a problem. No one has said that lying, cheating, or stealing to get ahead, is a problem. See, there's this perceived problem that independents have proportionately too much wealth, too easily, in comparison to their clanned counterparts. Mr. Goulet suggests that to counter this, clanned people get paid more, and then they won't need to go outside their clan for more. My rebuttal, is that paying them more won't prevent them from going outside their clan to get more anyway.

There's nothing wrong with clanned employees lying, cheating, and stealing to get ahead. I just don't think that rewarding characters with bonuses will prevent the lying, cheating, stealing, as Mr. Goulet suggests it will.

I don't think it will necessarily prevent it; shady or dishonest characters will always be shady and dishonest, and will do what they can to profit from a situation.  I'm merely saying that, as it stands now, clanned PCs have little option but to seek profit outside of their employment, if they hope to be able to afford, say, a set of armor, or a mount, or furnishings for an apartment.  This creates a situation where honest clanned PCs have the choice to either bend the rules, suffer without, or hope that their superiors are willing to spread the wealth.

As far as making a case for performance-based bonuses, let's take your prior example into consideration: If your hunter PC were to sell their hides to an NPC merchant rather than forking them over to the House, why would your PC's boss (who is also a PC) pay you a bonus?  Bob the miner, who always brings his obsidian home for the crafters, is far more likely to be selected for a bonus than your PC.  This is what I meant by performance-based bonuses encouraging good behavior.

[Rhyden]

I say money should go to the top, and trickle down. Both cities have a method similar to that kind of economy (northies and their partisans, Allanak with their emphasis on open corruption), and the higher ranked you are, the more able you are to take in money and hold onto it (less predators higher up the food chain). So with that said, in clans, the money starts at the top and trickles down. And that's how it ideally should be.

I think Templars should be handed out stimulus packages.

[Synthesis]

I think the only GMH I've played in in the last...six years or so was Salarr.

They had two ways of giving performance-based bonuses:

1. Each hunter had a drop-box chest.  Instead of dropping your loot in the crafting hall, you dropped it in your chest.  When the Agent came around, he'd clean your drop-box out, and drop coins in it based on whatever you brought back.  He'd give you more if you brought back the specific things he was looking for...it might be tembo-hide one week, or carru the next.

2. Each crafter had the same sort of drop-box.  Anything you crafted went in the box, and when the Agent sold it, he'd kick back some of the coins to you.

I think that's the sort of system that should be in place for all the GMHs, honestly.  It still leaves pure "aide" and pure "guard" roles out, but those can probably be handled on a performance basis...e.g. pay for information recovered or whatever.

[Aaron Goulet]

I think the only GMH I've played in in the last...six years or so was Salarr.

They had two ways of giving performance-based bonuses:

1. Each hunter had a drop-box chest.  Instead of dropping your loot in the crafting hall, you dropped it in your chest.  When the Agent came around, he'd clean your drop-box out, and drop coins in it based on whatever you brought back.  He'd give you more if you brought back the specific things he was looking for...it might be tembo-hide one week, or carru the next.

2. Each crafter had the same sort of drop-box.  Anything you crafted went in the box, and when the Agent sold it, he'd kick back some of the coins to you.

I think that's the sort of system that should be in place for all the GMHs, honestly.  It still leaves pure "aide" and pure "guard" roles out, but those can probably be handled on a performance basis...e.g. pay for information recovered or whatever.

We may have had past disagreements, but I support this, one hundred percent. 

[Qzzrbl]

You're trying to use subsistence level activity for justification for profit-oriented economic activity, while they are completely different animals. 1000 years ago, in actual urban environments more comparable to what we have in Zalanthas, you had guilds monopolizing industries and utterly preventing any sort of independent activity. The GMH's are much, much more powerful than medieval industry guilds. My question would be, why are these opportunities even available to commoners? Wouldn't the GMH's have bought them all up to use them as cash cows? And used their political connections to enable that? (Same argument goes against player-rented warehouses, really).

Because PCs in the right positions to do so, aren't doing so.

[spawnloser]

You're trying to use subsistence level activity for justification for profit-oriented economic activity, while they are completely different animals. 1000 years ago, in actual urban environments more comparable to what we have in Zalanthas, you had guilds monopolizing industries and utterly preventing any sort of independent activity. The GMH's are much, much more powerful than medieval industry guilds. My question would be, why are these opportunities even available to commoners? Wouldn't the GMH's have bought them all up to use them as cash cows? And used their political connections to enable that? (Same argument goes against player-rented warehouses, really).

Because PCs in the right positions to do so, aren't doing so.

I can back this up.  I had a merchant guild character that was trying to get into any and every merchant house.  My character was racking up the coins and could afford an apartment in Tuluk, Allanak and Storm.  I still wanted into a GMH... and got shot down.  The GMH Agents and the like don't seem to understand how to maintain a monopoly besides outright murder, which is sad.

[Spoon]

The thing is, GMHs already pretty much have a virtual monopoly in their specialised area. I'm hoping in arm2 that the power of clans will be less virtual and much more dynamic.

This threads gone on for a good while since I last posted, but my general feeling is that upping GMH salaries would cause more of the same problem. The problem of commoners getting rich isn't too massive anyway, as many people have said they don't make a huge impact on the world with their bank accounts. I think current GMH salaries in my experience are suited to the game world, changing them will not help the fact that some filthy commoners are stinking rich from manual labour.

[jcarter]

I can back this up.  I had a merchant guild character that was trying to get into any and every merchant house.  My character was racking up the coins and could afford an apartment in Tuluk, Allanak and Storm.  I still wanted into a GMH... and got shot down.  The GMH Agents and the like don't seem to understand how to maintain a monopoly besides outright murder, which is sad.

How did you threaten their monopoly? Was your character able to work with metal? Did they turn the flecks of spice grebbers find into bricks? Did they dictate fashion trends and guide the world towards it? Your PC was absolutely no threat to the GMHs at all. They all own numerous compounds, have thousands of crafters, and keep a tight grip on their secret recipes. The quality and quantity of what they can make is nearly unmatched, and they have seemingly limitless funds and political ties backing them.

The idea that the merchant guild of the week PC is even going to be seen as a viable threat is ridiculous. The houses are trenched in deep, and no single merchant, or small team of people, so going to be able to knock them down.

[Lizzie]

The only time an independent is a threat to a GMH, is when the independent is a threat to the *individual member* of that GMH. Yes, House Kadius is a BIG DEAL, and your puny rich silk-selling merchant freak is no competition to the House.

However, you are in the way of my character doing business with my character's customers, when you interrupt a deal to tell them that you can sell them a red silk gown for less. The House as a whole might not give a damn. But you're stepping on the toes of the individual House Merchant. That House Merchant can either offer to hire you - or if they don't LIKE your character, or think he's too ambitious and _COULD_ become a threat to the house if he's given access to the secrets, he could kill you.

Maybe no one wanted to hire your character because your character was too cocky to accept starting out as an underling. Or maybe you were RPing someone who didn't like taking instruction. Or maybe House Kadius just really didn't need an armorsmith. Or perhaps you were playing F-Me #977 and Salarr didn't need yet another distraction to prevent their hunters from hunting.

There could be a myriad of reasons why your character didn't get into a GMH. Not valuing their monopoly, I am sure, was not one of them. Obviously, they're still there. And your character is not.

[Boggis]

I can back this up.  I had a merchant guild character that was trying to get into any and every merchant house.  My character was racking up the coins and could afford an apartment in Tuluk, Allanak and Storm.  I still wanted into a GMH... and got shot down.

Said character must have been horribly repulsive in some way as I have never, ever seen a GMH refuse to hire a merchant. What with the over-dilution of the pbase (in my opinion) across too many areas most clans are dying on their feet for people and will hire people on any sort of pretense.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I can back this up.  I had a merchant guild character that was trying to get into any and every merchant house.  My character was racking up the coins and could afford an apartment in Tuluk, Allanak and Storm.  I still wanted into a GMH... and got shot down.

Said character must have been horribly repulsive in some way as I have never, ever seen a GMH refuse to hire a merchant. What with the over-dilution of the pbase (in my opinion) across too many areas most clans are dying on their feet for people and will hire people on any sort of pretense.

Not true. I've had the same happen to me. Three in-game years, and it took the dying request of a fucking NOBLE to get my pc hired.

And it wasn't just 'one' GMH who refused. One laughed at the pc, another tried to hire them as a whore, and a third, due to reasons and circumstances beyond my control thought my pc was trying to kill the person interviewing her (which she wasn't, it was just ridiculously bad luck and timing).

[X-D]

I wish some of you that like playing dirt poor would STOP IT!!!

Start making fat loot dammit. I mean really, I have more newb boots then Synth or Ghost now and with the ones Shal gave me before leaving I don't need to raid for them anymore. Ath even yelled at me for taking up too much space with them and Vanth has set about fixing apartments and containers because of it as well.

So now I need to raid for coin and all you players not ammassing vast amounts of wealth are making that very hard to do!

Point being, people with lots of money really are targets.

[Aaron Goulet]

I wish some of you that like playing dirt poor would STOP IT!!!

Start making fat loot dammit. I mean really, I have more newb boots then Synth or Ghost now and with the ones Shal gave me before leaving I don't need to raid for them anymore. Ath even yelled at me for taking up too much space with them and Vanth has set about fixing apartments and containers because of it as well.

So now I need to raid for coin and all you players not ammassing vast amounts of wealth are making that very hard to do!

Point being, people with lots of money really are targets.

Not if it's all in the bank.. 

[X-D]

Buy NICER BOOTS!

[Niamh]

I personally like it when leader PCs are being picky about who they hire, rather than hiring every person who comes along.

[jstorrie]

Said character must have been horribly repulsive in some way as I have never, ever seen a GMH refuse to hire a merchant.

Smart GMH agents usually try to get their hands on merchants whenever possible; but not all GMH agents are smart. The last time I played one, I flipped the bird to many an applicant for nary a reason. It's fun. Also your clan is cooler if you're harder to get into.

[Lizzie]

I've refused to hire people before while I was in a leadership position. With some would-be hirelings, there were a lot of reasons combined. With others, there might've been just one or two reasons.

Reasons why I didn't hire you (you, meaning, whoever I didn't hire):

1. My character doesn't want or need the competition in her own clan, and having to share a cut of the commission is something she doesn't want to do.
2. I don't play the same time you do, and the timing is just really wrong OOCly.
3. Your character is being portrayed as needy and whiny. I work for needy whiny people. I really don't want to be stuck being the boss of needy whiny peopl in-game, even if you're playing it brilliantly.
4. You aren't merely a new player - that, I can handle. But you are a player who has no understanding of syntax, who hasn't read the docs, and who needs a helper desperately. I am not a helper. I don't mind giving a hand now and then with OOC syntax, but I really don't want to spend a couple of hours every time I log in, having to remind you about talking, and saying, and sitting, and look tables, and enter stables, and hitch mount, and draw and sheath and all those wonderful things that you should be looking up on your own time, or asking a helper to help you with.
5. You are playing delicate-featured, waist-haired, F-me warrior/thug #744. Not interested in that kind of roleplay, not interested in the drama that goes along with my character's entire crew slacking off to stare at your character's tits.
6. My character has heard yours might be a rogue magicker. Not hiring, sorry.
7. My character suspects yours of being a rogue magicker. Not hiring, sorry.
8. You're asking to be a merchant for Kadius, but when I ask what you can do, all you can come up with is "I dunno, I'm  sure I can be of use." Or.."I can make armor." a) - come back next week when you've discovered what you can do for Kadius. b) try Salarr.
9. You're asking to be a merchant for Kadius, and expecting to be allowed to buy and sell from the start, without having to prove yourself first. Not gonna happen.
10. You want to join my house just for the training. Unless I'm the Tor Academy or the Byn, not gonna happen.

I can come up with another 10 but I need to make supper.

[musashi]

And the hiring criteria of GMH leader PC's towards would be merchants has what to do with the game's economy again?

Just saying.

[Lizzie]

It has to do with the issue of clanned employees not as much/easy an income as unclanned, and how it's easy or difficult to -be- a clanned employee, and how people are making it rich as unclanned employees, because clan leaders won't hire their merchants, thus encouraging more rich independent merchants who don't join clans.

I think.

[musashi]

I believe that typically virtual assets are virtual, and real assests are real and there is almost never any overlap. This is why a noble with no PC hunters or guards will be unable to provide escourt for their PC merchant who wants to go greb in the wilds. Because they can't actually turn one of their vNPC hunters or guards into a real NPC and send it on out with their PC merchant.

So in my opinion, saying that "Well the GMH's don't have to care about one or two rich indie merchants because they are really super even richer virtually" is not really saying a lot at all. As was stated by Lizzie fairly early on: Sure. One rich indie merchant is not going to take down clan Kaidus, but they can pose a large threat, or on the flip side a large boon, to whoever is currently running the PC side of things in clan Kaidus ... because the profits and goods they are amassing are all real, not virtual.

[Aaron Goulet]

I wish we had hard statistics on the economy for a day/week period.  Things like:

• Total value of goods sold to NPCs.
• Told value of goods purchased from NPCs.
• Total value of materials turned into salt/cotton/dung/obsidian buyers.
• Average independent PC wealth (bank accounts/inventory).
• Average clanned PC wealth (bank accounts/inventory).

Even the last two pieces of data would help considerably.  Without this data, every argument made on this subject is largely anecdotal.