Economy

[Sinna]

The immortals don't play against us, Salt Merchant, despite how it might feel.  I'm sure you know that - so why am I saying it?  It's a late night at work and I'm behind a darn firewall.

[musashi]

Just a little food for thought on the coin to weight ratio ... I did a little test.

Wth a poor strength human who was fully clothed and already carrying everything he normally carries, I picked up 3000 coins and left them in my inventory.

I was at no problem before picking them up, and at easily manageable after picking them up.

So I seriously doubt any fighting classes who have presumably prioritzed strength would even notice a dip in their fighting abilities or in their ability to pack and unpack it off of mounts if they had to carry a few large around in a backpack (where it would weigh them down even less) .

After putting the coins in a pack, my encumberance dropped down to light. So I still really doubt it would be the end of the world if people had to carry their coins around with them. It would only start to be an issue when people were getting into the disparity we talked about earlier in the thread. I think your average player who isn't contributing to that problem would barely even notice.

[Synthesis]

Encumbrance is only one part of the "pain in the ass" equation, musashi.

The individual components may be only small contributions, but taken altogether, they can amount to quite a large pain in the ass.  Sort of like encumbrance.

[Nyr]

Yes, sometimes I've even had the impression that someone is following me around, tweaking things to add difficultly or to be less frequent or generally just more of a hassle.

E.g. an easy climb that suddenly becomes impossible.

No offense, but I wish the staff would devote more time to putting new things (coded toys) into the game than taking things out.

Random number generators are random.

This is a case where it took an average of five tries. Then it became impossible. No number of tries would work.

We don't do this.  Ginka is a cold, heartless bitch without the help of staff.  We have a general "no harm" policy, and adjusting values or your skill on the fly for no reason whatsoever is contrary to this policy.

As for putting new things in vs taking things out, I don't think this is accurate.

Coded things added in the last 6 months

April:
Helper chat system, skill level aptitude added, nosave combat added

March:
Changes to darkness/storm navigation (improving/expanding direction sense skill), mount/dismount get command emotes, accents get a coded default for all starting locations

February:
Raise/lower get command emotes, merchants now show amount available in lists, things thrown can knock you off of your mount, you now sit when you fall off of a mount, karma players no longer repop, reroll undo added, mounts go on without you if you fall off

January:
Just bug fixes and stuff, but lots of NPCs/some objects/etc added to a region and not included (double-checked)

December:
Generic water seller fixes with syntax, added in several places, updated world to allow foraging ruins in certain areas, updated tax system in certain areas, 400+ rooms added (I consider these code, a hell of a lot of work was done), 50% increase in moons, 100% increase in volcanos, various scripts

November:
Tor Academy Doorguard Script updated, updated cotton fields (somewhat), autopayment script for clans -- bugfix, 30 rooms added by player initiative

October:
Autopayment system for clans added, Can't drag items into full rooms anymore

I can understand the feeling that one's cheese has been moved, but all of this other stuff is super awesome cheese.  I'd also like to point out that so far, the only move that staff have said they're making in relation to any of this discussion is a more proper enforcement of apartment weights (and even some improvements there with automatic furniture placement).

[AmandaGreathouse]

Just a little food for thought on the coin to weight ratio ... I did a little test.

Wth a poor strength human who was fully clothed and already carrying everything he normally carries, I picked up 3000 coins and left them in my inventory.

I was at no problem before picking them up, and at easily manageable after picking them up.

So I seriously doubt any fighting classes who have presumably prioritzed strength would even notice a dip in their fighting abilities or in their ability to pack and unpack it off of mounts if they had to carry a few large around in a backpack (where it would weigh them down even less) .

After putting the coins in a pack, my encumberance dropped down to light. So I still really doubt it would be the end of the world if people had to carry their coins around with them. It would only start to be an issue when people were getting into the disparity we talked about earlier in the thread. I think your average player who isn't contributing to that problem would barely even notice.

What about a poor strength elf?

[spawnloser]

What about a poor strength elf?

Maybe elves that want to tote a bunch of stuff about should prioritize strength higher.

[musashi]

Encumbrance is only one part of the "pain in the ass" equation, musashi.

The individual components may be only small contributions, but taken altogether, they can amount to quite a large pain in the ass.  Sort of like encumbrance.

It's the only part you identified I believe, so it's what I took a look at just to make sure I wasn't talking bunk and coins weren't actually way way heavier than I thought they were. Double checking myself, as it were.

We can't discuss something to any thoughtful degree when the details aren't spelled out. So if there are other components, please bring them up so they can be examined.

What about a poor strength elf?

Maybe elves that want to tote a bunch of stuff about should prioritize strength higher.

I don't play elves so someone else would have to test that out and see how badly an elf is hurting from carrying a few large around but I have a feeling that they are probably able to as well, just with perhaps a manageable encumberance instead of an easily manageable one. Like, shift everything up a catergory. But I admit that's only a guess on my part.

But to me, 2-3k sounds like plenty for anyone. Especially given how quickly you can earn that 2-3k back again after you've spent what you were carrying.

[spawnloser]

An elf with below average strength wearing a fairly standard outfit and carrying about some stuff but not much starts at easily manageable, musashi, before picking up the coins.  Reconsider.

[Synthesis]

I'm really not interested in hearing you explain how exactly the playerbase would manage to cope with the nuisance of not having banks.  The fact that we will be able to cope doesn't mean it won't be a nuisance.

[Nyr]

We're not removing banks.

[Lizzie]

Yeah I was gonna say, no one has suggested we remove banks.

[spawnloser]

Actually, someone did, Lizzie.  I think that's a bit of an extreme measure, but I think it contains an element of truth.  I would rather see there be multiple banks instead of one global bank like it is now.  I would rather there be currencies for each of the major cities and people have to convert funds to another currency (fees involved, of course).  I would rather there be charges on bank accounts, not a fee that hits once every period of time, but one that hits whenever coins are deposited or withdrawn.

[musashi]

An elf with below average strength wearing a fairly standard outfit and carrying about some stuff but not much starts at easily manageable, musashi, before picking up the coins.  Reconsider.

Ouch. That's harsh.

[Nyr]

Its a broad range of items Nyr, and the fact that common NPC merchants treat them so valuable is silly because, honestly, most NPC's wouldn't realize them for what they are.  Should I still email you on this, or has my point been made?

Yes, e-mail me on it.

edit to add that I'd specifically like to know about which merchants offer these prices.

I've made adjustments to a few shops as well as some item values to better reflect the world.  If you notice anything supremely weird in your travels (specifically the three of you that e-mailed me with information), please let me know.

[ianmartin]

Personally, in speaking with banks, I think the banks should charge 5% on each deposit and maybe 1% on each withdrawal.

[spawnloser]

Personally, in speaking with banks, I think the banks should charge 5% on each deposit and maybe 1% on each withdrawal.

Either a withdrawl fee or a deposit fee, if you ask me.

[Sinna]

We're not removing banks.

Too bad, I think it's a good idea.  But it is what it is.

[Old Kank]

Here's a few ideas on how to fix the economy.  I'm throwing these out there as a unified solution, so most of these ideas may not hold much water on their own but together I think it could work, and I think they would require a minimal amount of new code.

1.  Make hunger/thirst obsolete in cities/camps.

Before you start lighting up your flame-throwers and crying heresy, hear me out.  Hunger and thirst punishes players for playing frequently.  As long as that remains true, you have to have a way for players to convert time played into money or food/water, and that's what caused the whole problem to begin with.  This was fixed for clan members years ago; all I'm suggesting is that if we want to stem the tide of money in the game, we should do the same for independent characters.

There are plenty of ways to do this, but I suggest:

• Set up "soup kitchens" that utilize the prison code, where players can go in and have their thirst/hunger values set to full. This way, food items can't be stored and hunger/thirst remains a problem for traveling in the desert.
• Make it so anyone can forage for food in the cities - or maybe just in taverns and places where food is cooked.  Make it the most disgusting food available, but still available.
• Make food so cheap that a PC can eat their fill for less than 5 'sids.  Right now the cost of food in some places is so high that it creates a very slippery slope in terms of profit:  If it takes 3-400 'sids to feed a character for 3 hours of play, then crafting/grebbing for 1,000 'sids doesn't seem like a huge amount of coins to the player.

2. Change most shop-keepers so that they don't buy from players.

Again, heresy, I know.  The idea that almost any item should be able to be sold for some kind of profit has always struck me as a video-game artifact that had no real place in Zalanthas.  If the GMH are all about high-quality goods, then why would they ever buy shoddily-made goods from any elf off the street?  They aren't a fence or a pawn-shop. 

This would immediately suck a lot of money out of the game, so here are a few caveats to make this work:

• Leave raw-material merchants alone.  Hunters still need to be able to sell their pelts and things.
• Set up a few pawn-shop/fence type shops, especially close to seedier parts of town.  Make them buy really low, and sell low, so that thievery is still a viable option, but also so players have some access to really cheap goods.
  
• Create GMH "buying agent" roles for PCs to fill, and don't limit them to fancy-pants high-born merchants.  Set up routinely-cleared merchant NPCs inside GMH clan compounds, so that the buying agents can buy from PCs, and then turn around and sell them to "private" NPCs.  This empowers PCs and PC interaction - now crafter hobbyists have to make nice with GMH personnel - and creates two bottle-necks (one player and one staff) where the market for cheap, useless crap can be regulated.
• Create NPC "buying agents" that utilize trade code seen in some parts of the game world, rather than the shop-keeper code that seems to be far less discriminatory.  For example, set up a Salarri NPC that is only interested in buying arrows this week, but next week he changes to only buying obsidian longswords.  Or maybe a Kadian agent that buys only plain silk shirts - red, white, blue, black, etc., but nothing with fancy buttons or leather fringes.  This way, some commerce can continue when PC buying agents are unavailable.
• If possible, fix the barter code so that one item can be traded for another at the market value of the traded item.  If you have a sword that an NPC will sell for 100 'sids, you should be able to trade that sword for an item the NPC is selling for roughly 100 'sids.  This way, people can do some haggling/trading without always losing on the deal and without introducing more money into the game.

3. Set up "newbie" shops.

It seems there's been some resistance to this idea for years, but I think its time has come.  Unless you plan on playing a beggar or a 'rinther, it's gotten incredibly difficult to gear up a character right out of char gen.  If you buy the cheapest arms/armor available, you can usually manage to cover the soft spots - head, neck and body - for under 500 'sids.  But throw in the mandatory hooded cloak, a sword, a shield, and another item or two, and your character is broke.  Good luck trying to get starting gear if you set aside your 300 'sid Byn fee, or the 400 'sid price of a mount, and god help you if you want to play an archer in Allanak.

• Create newbie shops that characters can access right out of the Hall of Kings.  Fill them with really cheap, generic, low-quality items so that players can enter the game with some ability to play out their class how they see fit.
• Otherwise, simply make really cheap, generic, low-quality items available to the playerbase as a whole so that players can get their characters equipped without spending their entire bag of starting coins.

4. Adjust the value of goods.

This falls in line with what's already been going on, but I'm proposing it be done for the items that have an unlimited supply.

• Adjust the value of hunted goods.  Things coming off common animals (scrab, goudra, gurth, duskhorn) should be relatively worthless, while things coming off rare/dangerous animals (meks, 'mets, and rocs) should be more valuable.
• Low-risk occupations should have low-rewards.  A full sack of salt should bring in maybe 35 coins.  Mining is slightly more risky, so a full pack of 'sid should bring in about 50 coins.

5. Create jobs that have value over time.

Instead of jobs where time-involved=money, create jobs where time-passed=money, and allow money earned to be re-invested into the job for higher profits later down the road.  Rather than keeping their money in banks, most indie/commoner PCs should be keeping their money tied up in their job, spending their income on making the job more valuable or more reliable.  For example, you could use the apartment code and the 'sid mining code to create a Zalanthan version of FarmVille. 

Allow players to rent a plot of land and buy wool-producing escru to keep on that land.  Have the escru produce wool on a randomized, or timed schedule, but set it up in such a way that characters can shear and accumulate roughly 50 'sids worth of wool each RL day.  Allow a PC to make 350 'sids per RL week off a single escru, then charge the PC 300 'sids per week to rent the land.  If an escru sells for 500 'sids, then a player will have to save for roughly two months in order to buy a second escru.  As long as the first escru continues to pay the rent, the second escru will provide money for a third and fourth escru within the next month, and after 3-4 RL months, you can be playing a bona fide escru farmer making 1,000 'sid per RL month.  Then, because it's Armageddon and not Facebook, throw in diseases that kill the escru off if you have too many on a single plot of land, or the occasional gortok in the pens to keep players from sitting on a perpetual cash cow.

Here are some other jobs that could be added where players could accumulate wealth over time:

• Chalton lizard farming, just like escru farming except maybe they produce eggs instead of wool.
• Wheat farms.  You rent a plot of land and plant a few bushels of wheat, let it grow for a few IG weeks, harvest and mill the wheat, then you turn around and dump your profits back into buying more wheat.
  
• Land lords.  For an astronomical sum of 10,000 'sids, let players invest in apartments and become land lords that reap a share of profits off each apartment unit rented out.  In a perfect market, land lords could deal with (or ignore) the criminal element and use that as incentive for other players to stay there, instead of someone else's apartment.
• Bar maids.  Again, using the apartment code, let one or two players rent access to the back room of taverns, where a special NPC shop could be set up to either buy old glass bottles or to sell special alcohols.  PC barmaids could collect used mugs and bottles and return them for a small profit, or they could sell alcohol from Vennant/Clint's special stock.
• Spice traps.  Rather than risk life and limb out by the sea of silt, rent a plot of land and set up spice sifts and nets that filter spice from the winds coming off the sea.
• Gladiator sponsors.  Spartacus, anyone?  It might take some extensive coding, but I would love to see players able to invest in a sort of stock market for gladiators: Buy low, contribute money to training and gear, and hope that your gladiator wins enough matches to start returning a lot of money.
  

OK

[Thunkkin]

You've made enough suggestions here, Old Kank, that I'm sure you'll find a few people to argue with every point.  However.  That was a great post with excellent food for thought.  Well done. 

Also:  Escru farming = win

[Aaron Goulet]

For chalton leather being such a common thing in Allanak, it seems very hard to get ahold of as a crafting material.  I think Old Kank's suggestion kills two birds with one stone!

[Sephiroto]

Stuff.

Great suggestions.

[musashi]

I like the suggesons as well.

[Rhyden]

I like the suggesons as well.

Especially this.

Here are some other jobs that could be added where players could accumulate wealth over time:

• Chalton lizard farming, just like escru farming except maybe they produce eggs instead of wool.
• Wheat farms.  You rent a plot of land and plant a few bushels of wheat, let it grow for a few IG weeks, harvest and mill the wheat, then you turn around and dump your profits back into buying more wheat.
  
• Land lords.  For an astronomical sum of 10,000 'sids, let players invest in apartments and become land lords that reap a share of profits off each apartment unit rented out.  In a perfect market, land lords could deal with (or ignore) the criminal element and use that as incentive for other players to stay there, instead of someone else's apartment.
• Bar maids.  Again, using the apartment code, let one or two players rent access to the back room of taverns, where a special NPC shop could be set up to either buy old glass bottles or to sell special alcohols.  PC barmaids could collect used mugs and bottles and return them for a small profit, or they could sell alcohol from Vennant/Clint's special stock.
• Spice traps.  Rather than risk life and limb out by the sea of silt, rent a plot of land and set up spice sifts and nets that filter spice from the winds coming off the sea.
• Gladiator sponsors.  Spartacus, anyone?  It might take some extensive coding, but I would love to see players able to invest in a sort of stock market for gladiators: Buy low, contribute money to training and gear, and hope that your gladiator wins enough matches to start returning a lot of money.
  

[Synthesis]

Chalton leather isn't difficult to get ahold of in Allanak.

The butcher shop sells an infinite amount, in case you hadn't noticed.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I don't really like it, honestly. Not unless the price of water drops drastically. Already, a bag of salt is only worth that much after the cost of food and water to go and get it. Not to mention what that would do to the merchant class. (AKA making it completely pointless to play one outside a clan.)

Edit to clarify, before someone harps on this point: Makes it pointless outside a clan with an OFFPEAK merchant unless you magickally line your playtimes up with a PC GMH 'buyer'. Considering how often I see PC agents IG, it makes it pointless for ME. And I love the merchant class. So that would piss me off a bit, yes.