Economy

[Lizzie]

It isn't that clanned people don't have enough sids, Eldritch. It's that *anyone* (clanned or otherwise) has the ability of amassing such disproportionate amounts of riches that the economy ends up being totally out of whack. Some of us are saying the reason for this issue is because the NPCs are being treated like ATM machines. Some of us who are saying this, are proposing that something done about those "ATM machines" to add "withdraw fees." To not prevent people from getting rich, but to give people who are using those NPCs to get rich, to consider a little more carefully their choices.

If everyone learns that you can forage a shard of plastic in Red Storm, and sell that shard for 500 sids in Tuluk and 400 sids in Luir's and 600 sids in Cenyr, and a shard of plastic hardly weighs anything and once you get your forage skill up past novice you can get them very easily...

Then all of a sudden everyone who is claiming to be just some poor nobody grebber is getting filthy rich, just by selling *2* shards of plastic per RL week. It makes it pointless to be wealthy, if everyone is wealthy. It becomes pointless to be "someone influential" and try and pay for an assassination against Joe Nobody, when Joe Nobody has more sids than you and can easily buy that contract out from under your nose. It skews politics, and it also makes people look at rinthis wearing silks and wonder WTF.

[Sinna]

The question I have is how every character you have after the first knows that shard of plastic is worth 500 sids in Tuluk?

Do all of Synth's characters automatically now have the 900 recipes he's amassed in his excel file? 

I remember playing a burglar once and wandering into a room that had more greb in it than a GMH's warehouse. 

It isn't realistic and it violates the core of the game, IMO. 

But, it's alright.  It gives the burglar something to do over the course of the next few IG days - hauling that stuff to the fence then wasting the coin on tattoos and drinks.

Heh. Maybe that should be the concept of my next character - "the balance maker."   

[EldritchOrigins]

I doubt that suddenly all indenpendents become wealthy over night.  I'm sure several of them die trying.

I kind of like the idea that it's possible to make coins but maybe there should be danger involved, and there are always anomolous items out there that can make lots of coins.  These anomolies should probably be reported to staff so they can check and make sure that things are working as they should.

But for the most part, the problem of the economy has already been 'fixed' in a way that I think is better than fixing all the different ways to earn coin, and that is by limiting what coins (and coins alone) can get a person.  And by that I mean that coins will get you so far, but without entering the political arena, you can't get much.

[Lizzie]

Sinna again, you're missing the point. There are some awesome roleplayers in Arm who will adhere to knowing only what their current character -would- know at any given moment.

There are also power-gamers who don't care that you are sticking true to what your character knows, because THEY know that all of THEIR characters can sell that shard of plastic for 500 sids.

Then, there are the players whose characters just plain end up knowing this stuff, through the course of normal roleplay. These items you can get rich from aren't rare. They're common. They're things you will see when you go to those market shops and see that the shopkeeper is charging 1000 sids to sell it to you. And that is when your *character* learns - hey - this stupid useless piece of plastic is worth something. I'll have to pick up the next few I see instead of leaving them on the ground.

This is WHY it is so easy. Because the code is set up in a way that makes it easy. The methodology the code makes us of, to make it so easy, is the shopkeeper code. The "sid-dispensing" code. It makes it easy for people to learn what sells for stupid amounts of sids, It makes it easy for people to learn which items are the absolute cheapest to acquire, it makes it easy for people to get rich, who otherwise wouldn't have any IC interest or need to get rich. It makes it difficult, in fact, for people who WANT their characters to be poor, to allow their characters to be poor. It makes players have to actually work at it to keep their characters ignorant.

Because it's just too easy for their characters to learn, totally ICly, how easy it is to get rich.

No one has to cheat, or take knowledge from previous characters, or have a spreadsheet, or know the recipes for crafting items. Your burglar who fences a GMH-sized apartment full of crap is just one example of how easy it is for someone to get rich.

[tortall]

Why don't clans just pay people more then?  I'll answer.

Clans provide two things that can't be bought with money. Safety and Friends, diferent in some respects but they do overlap.

Sure, not all people in a clan like each other, but for the most part, for the sake of the clan functioning, they back each other up and help each other become stronger/more prominant (even the virtual members and npcs when it is appropriate.  Independents don't have any kind of structure backing them up.  Anything they do, they do alone and if they screw up, it usually costs their life. Friends also give people other people do things with to do things with (That they know that they can pretty much trust, for the most part).  These things are much more difficult to achive with an Indy character.  This sort of thing can't be bought with coins.

Independents are only limited by the amount of time they want to put in.  If they forage salt, or do whatever for 10 hours a day, then they will have something to show for it.  But again, anyone that does anything alone out in the desert is taking a great risk.

If it's a matter of clan people not having enough coins, maybe it is just that people in those roles don't know how to make money.  I've seen some clanned people that seem to be very well off.  But for those that don't know how to make a little on the side, maybe clans should offer special tasks for members to earn extra coins (and want to put the time and effort into something to make that extra coin)?

First off, if you're an indept and want to have said structure.... You can have it without ever joining a clan. What do you think the partisan system is supposed to be? Said independent does something for you, you give them something in return. They end up working with your actual employees, make friends, get drunk, have lovers..... Not all independents are ISO.

[Sinna]

All I know is that creating a working economy would be hard as heck to do in a game.  In the end I guess it doesn't really matter, except that it makes rewarding characters difficult. 

[EldritchOrigins]

Why don't clans just pay people more then?  I'll answer.

Clans provide two things that can't be bought with money. Safety and Friends, diferent in some respects but they do overlap.

Sure, not all people in a clan like each other, but for the most part, for the sake of the clan functioning, they back each other up and help each other become stronger/more prominant (even the virtual members and npcs when it is appropriate. Independents don't have any kind of structure backing them up.  Anything they do, they do alone and if they screw up, it usually costs their life. Friends also give people other people do things with to do things with (That they know that they can pretty much trust, for the most part).  These things are much more difficult to achive with an Indy character.  This sort of thing can't be bought with coins.

Independents are only limited by the amount of time they want to put in.  If they forage salt, or do whatever for 10 hours a day, then they will have something to show for it.  But again, anyone that does anything alone out in the desert is taking a great risk.

If it's a matter of clan people not having enough coins, maybe it is just that people in those roles don't know how to make money.  I've seen some clanned people that seem to be very well off.  But for those that don't know how to make a little on the side, maybe clans should offer special tasks for members to earn extra coins (and want to put the time and effort into something to make that extra coin)?

First off, if you're an indept and want to have said structure.... You can have it without ever joining a clan. What do you think the partisan system is supposed to be? Said independent does something for you, you give them something in return. They end up working with your actual employees, make friends, get drunk, have lovers..... Not all independents are ISO.

Would a -partisan- really be an independent?  The act of being a partisan automatically makes them affiliated, and in my book, not an independent.  I guess it depends on how one defines 'independent'.

[AmandaGreathouse]

If one defines 'independent' as : "Not part of a contract guaranteeing me food, water, and a posh footlocker where only other clannies can rip me off," then yes, that's pretty much independent in many cases.

Same thing with: Not wearing a uniform, not having access to clan boards, and not being guaranteed extended employment.

[flurry]

I find this topic endlessly depressing and frustrating.

Why do people amass absurd, nearly gameworld-contradicting sums of coins? Personally, I think there are two reasons. First, because it gives a sense of accomplishment to some. Second, because it makes the game easier.

Ginormous gobs of coins are not inevitable, even for long-lived characters. Keeping a modest Nenyuk balance is not difficult, in my experience. If there's a need for a guide on how to not accumulate preposterous piles of 'sid, I'd be happy to write it.

Now that I've gotten all that out of the way (and feeling better for it), I'll add that generally I feel that people should play the way they want to play, as long as they're  being true to their characters and staying within the bounds of Zalanthas-realistic behavior.

However, how one person engages with the economy does influence others' experiences with it. As other people have said, jaw-dropping quantities of coins at the disposal of the average Amos devalues coins for everyone. What is a three small bribe worth when some grebber can drop five large without batting an eye?

So where am I going with all this? Personally, I don't mind if independents continue to be able to out-earn clanned folks. However, I'd rather that it were much, much more difficult (by which I mean impossible) to generate the truly massive amounts of coins. I'd be happy to see an end to the Zalanthan archetype of the humble independent who can buy and sell every PC noble.

[Salt Merchant]

What really is a "disproportionate amount of riches" anyhow?

Maybe a thousand 'sid sounds like a lot, but when kalan fruit cost 40 'sid each, that's only 25 fruit. It won't be that long until the character is hungry again.

If you're drinking and eating in a tavern, it'll last a lot less time than that.

A thousand 'sid? One or two pieces of armor, after fitting. A couple of mounts. Not even a tent.

Characters aren't so rich as they may sound.

[ianmartin]

All of you who want to earn a modest amount of money only, please step to the rear of the running of the mekillots line and let the rest of us get to the front please.

[Sinna]

I find this topic endlessly depressing and frustrating.

Why do people amass absurd, nearly gameworld-contradicting sums of coins? Personally, I think there are two reasons. First, because it gives a sense of accomplishment to some. Second, because it makes the game easier.

Ginormous gobs of coins are not inevitable, even for long-lived characters. Keeping a modest Nenyuk balance is not difficult, in my experience. If there's a need for a guide on how to not accumulate preposterous piles of 'sid, I'd be happy to write it.

Now that I've gotten all that out of the way (and feeling better for it), I'll add that generally I feel that people should play the way they want to play, as long as they're  being true to their characters and staying within the bounds of Zalanthas-realistic behavior.

However, how one person engages with the economy does influence others' experiences with it. As other people have said, jaw-dropping quantities of coins at the disposal of the average Amos devalues coins for everyone. What is a three small bribe worth when some grebber can drop five large without batting an eye?

So where am I going with all this? Personally, I don't mind if independents continue to be able to out-earn clanned folks. However, I'd rather that it were much, much more difficult (by which I mean impossible) to generate the truly massive amounts of coins. I'd be happy to see an end to the Zalanthan archetype of the humble independent who can buy and sell every PC noble.

I think I love you.

[Spider]

Yeah, to me most, if not all of the problems in game pertaining to economy, can be fixed by realistic play with our PCs.

Traveling to the end of the Known World and back in a couple of IG days to sell that four hundred sid thing that was grebbed, isn't very realistic.

Taxes and such have never been needed to keep down my PCs financially, they are always broke!

Those who I have seen as rich in game, are those long-lived PCs with many stories to tell about all their jobs and what not. They probably have a large bank account too.

[ianmartin]

The old D&D rules apply here I believe.  Let's take things in perspective for a moment and think.  I believe that the PC base covers maybe what 0.05 - 0.1 % of the total population of the world?

Maybe the figures are wrong, but in D&D, your pc's represent the best of the best, you are the ones fortunate enough to have jobs, smarts, special skills and what have you.  You are NOT the norm, therefore for each rich PC, Grebber or what have you, there are thousands other poor people, it's just like the world we live in now.  I think it's grossly unfair to find fault with the pc's that happen to be very rich because of their efforts.  If there is a problem with a grebber walking the length and breadth of the land to sell that very expensive item, then make travel longer, more obstacles, longer roads.  Let's stop harassing or being upset because there are a few people that can beat the system, we have them in this day and age, we call them Donald Trump, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet.

[musashi]

Well not exactly limiting it to the same city but, perhaps, restricting.

If you're from Tuluk and you're in Allanak and need to use the bank, Nenyuk would charge a fee for "transport services." No waiting time, just a fee. It wouldn't even need to be a big fee - 5%-10% of the transaction (ever use those change machines in supermarkets? You put in $400 worth of quarters/dimes/nickels/pennies and they give you $370 in bills).

And a Nakki using the bank in Tuluk would have a fee. Everyone using the bank in Luir's Outpost would have a smaller fee, except for Kuracis and "official citizens" of Luirs (there's a citizen office in the Post, no idea if it's ever been used).

The point of all these ideas is to provide a money sink, because it's too easy to hoarde wealth, and not have any need to spend it, thus devaluing the wealth and all it can buy. You want to know why some of my characters have taken up apartments in every single building in every location where rentals are available? That's why. Because they've been TOO rich and needed something to spend it on. If Nenyuk had skimmed from the account, my characters would've had to be more careful with their spending, AND their earning.
Earn too much, it'll cost ya. Spend too little, it'll cost ya.

Synthesis is right - what he says is how things SHOULD be. But they're not that way. You -cannot- rely on shelling out protection money to the Guild, the rogue magicker, the local temparate, the local police department, and Amos Borsail. In the 3+years I've been playing, I've had to bribe with just one character. With that character, it made sense for her to stuff several pockets. But she searched..actually tried sending word to the different organizations to let them know she had sids and was willing to pay them. The Guild wasn't active. The templar retired. The other templar got killed. The local unaffiliated assassin didn't play when I did. The raiders liked my character and didn't demand sids.

As for the tribal situation yeah..I know the IC story. I also know it isn't spread among every non-city tribe, and every PC belonging to those tribes, nor is it done in a way that allows tribals to HAVE accounts, but simply be required to pay a fee for the privilege. I know all about the incident. It is totally and utterly NOT what I'm talking about.

Nenyuk should be skimming from anyone who is using a branch of their bank in a city they don't belong to, and it should be a legitimate standard policy of Nenyuk to do so.

No no. I would really rather you just not be able to withdraw from your Tuluki account while in Allanak, and vice versa. That would increase the risk of making these large profit drives where folks take a lot of item x from location z and sell it in location y. Being able to leave your coin safely tucked away in your global account while you make the ride home from your latest cash run never sat right with me.

Actually to be honest I think that the economy (and the realism of the game world while we're at it) could be greatly helped if only nobles, templarate, and GMH folk had access to bank accounts to begin with. It'd be a bit more difficult for a homeless indie crafter to amass a ton of wealth if he was forced to carry it all on his back.

[Akaramu]

Actually to be honest I think that the economy (and the realism of the game world while we're at it) could be greatly helped if only nobles, templarate, and GMH folk had access to bank accounts to begin with. It'd be a bit more difficult for a homeless indie crafter to amass a ton of wealth if he was forced to carry it all on his back.

I'd totally agree with this if it was also easier to rent apartments with DECENT locks that aren't broken into every IG month.

If someone is willing to pay two large a month in rent, they should be able to keep their things reasonably safe, and not even need to use the bank.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Actually to be honest I think that the economy (and the realism of the game world while we're at it) could be greatly helped if only nobles, templarate, and GMH folk had access to bank accounts to begin with. It'd be a bit more difficult for a homeless indie crafter to amass a ton of wealth if he was forced to carry it all on his back.

I'd totally agree with this if it was also easier to rent apartments with DECENT locks that aren't broken into every IG month.

If someone is willing to pay two large a month in rent, they should be able to keep their things reasonably safe, and not even need to use the bank.

This precisely.

[Sephiroto]

I think that [a specific IC item] should be harder to sell....  A lot of OOC knowledge is going into profiting from these items.

I like that certain material (wood/obsidian/bone) items sell for less value in certain cities than they used to, because you used to be able to make a killing by simpy buying/reselling to and from NPC's.  There still seem to be a few items that require balance though, but I could be mistaken.

[Nyr]

If an item is being sold easily in-game for high profit, perhaps posting about it on the board in a specific fashion isn't the best way to address this.  Send me an e-mail and I'll take a look.

[Sephiroto]

Its a broad range of items Nyr, and the fact that common NPC merchants treat them so valuable is silly because, honestly, most NPC's wouldn't realize them for what they are.  Should I still email you on this, or has my point been made?

[Thunkkin]

I fully agree with Sephiroto.

[Synthesis]

The only thing I've found in this thread so far that could be damaging to the in-game economy is hyperbole.  You guys should stop listening to your OOC buddies brag about their bank accounts and just play the damn game.

[Thunkkin]

You guys should stop listening to your OOC buddies brag about their bank accounts and just play the damn game.

You just won a troll brownie.

[MarshallDFX]

Personally, I'm inclined to believe that Synthesis' assessment contains a fair bit of truth.

On the original topic:  It is a bit of a funny moment sometimes, but the poor and powerful clanned characters don't really need to flaunt their (lack of) wealth. I'd think that if the clanned character wants something enough, they can convince a noble of their need and get things done.  All the bonuses to playing clanned have been well talked about, methinks.

[Salt Merchant]

Part of the problem (if it really is a problem) is a lack of money sinks.

Commoners can't buy land.
Commoners can't build even pitiful mudbrick houses.
Commoners can't set up shops more permanent than an open backpack.
Commoners can't buy slaves or hire NPCs.

I don't see any in-game reason a commoner shouldn't be able to afford a modest home and a couple of NPCs to tend it. There are plenty of NPC commoners that seem that well off. Let's face it, mostly it's not been done for OOC concerns (demand on staff). Maybe with some automation and the designation of a PC or two to run a land office it might be within reason.

People like to suggest taxes, but taxes are just a disincentive to do more than tavern sit, in my opinion. Nevertheless, every now and then (irregularly) the templarate could announce a land/head tax and come around to collect, which could result in some interesting times.