Economy

[mansa]

Who's crying?  I'm happy playing the way I play  and permadeath does fine in moderating the wealthy.  I just don't think it makes sense to have a game that says shit is rough when shit isn't that rough after all. 

It's sorta like playing a game in which you say water is rare when it plainly isn't.  Oh. Wait.

Casual Gaming has reared it's ugly, gigantic head.

[Sinna]

Casual Gaming has reared it's ugly, gigantic head.

I don't get it.

[Synthesis]

Your rewards for competition sound great Synth except that this is a desolute and ruined world.  Why should I give away ultra mind blowing spice when I half a brick of the regular shit should be priceless?  Aren't we just contributing to the runaway economy problem?

That's just one example, if you're a Kuraci. Really though, I'm assuming any Kuraci merchant worth his sandcloth would really have enough coins to actually offer a decent coin-based reward, since you know...merchant house power is kind of predicated on that.

And no, it doesn't "contribute" to it, if by "contribute" you mean "make it worse." Yes, it's a solution designed to take the perceived problem into account, but it's merely neutral in that regard.

Keep in mind, I'm not bitching (I really am not invested in this) I'm just curious how to solve a perceived problem. 

...but there's your problem, right there.  Perceived.  Someone on the GDB is always crying about how someone in-game isn't playing how they would like them to be playing.  One week it's magickers.  The next week it's elves.  The next week it's half-elves.  The next week it's half-giants.  The next week it's indies.  The next week it's GMH sponsored-role leaders.  The next week it's raiders.  The next week it's burglars.  The next week it's militia members.

I say:  if the Staff isn't kicking you in the nuts for what you're doing...guess what:  it's probably alright, man.  Let people make their coins, like it fucking MATTERS.  Coins won't keep your character alive when the shit hits the fan.  Nobody will ever read an original submission that consists of a character sitting alone in a room separating his 100k 'sid into neat stacks, after which he rolls around in them like Scrooge McDuck.  Veteran players/characters will not jump to do your bidding just because you throw ridiculous sums of money their way.  The best you can hope for with money alone is to sit in your expensive apartment typing 'l me' to examine your fancy gear, reveling in your 1337ness.  That is pretty much the extent of money's usefulness as far as the game is concerned. 

Really, every substantial relationship that develops in this game occurs because the other player likes playing around you primarily, and other IC considerations like how much coin you have to offer are only secondary concerns...because just about anyone can offer coins, dude.  If people are hanging all around someone with a lot of coins, it probably isn't just because they have lots of coins.  Trust me, nobody is winning Armageddon by virtue of the size of their character's bank account.

[Sinna]

I totally agree with all you said in your last post, Synth.  I guess I just wasn't understanding what you were getting at earlier. 

Regarding veteran player / characters (as you put it) not jumping to characters who throw around money: I gusess I don't play that way.  If I'm playing dirt poor who wants coin, she will jump for the coin.  Plenty of my characters, when approached by nobles or templars almost always say "Yes" not because I want them too, but because the environment makes it pretty damn difficult to say no. 

What I'm trying to say is that if the world is as really harsh as advertised and someone offers you 500 coins to slit your mother's throat, you really ought to consider it.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Well, lets take a mathematical approach:


CLANNED
*Benefits and compensation received or consumed within a month (2 IRL weeks.)

Salary                 + 300
Lodging/storage  + 500   (125 day apartment lease for 250 sid, x2 = 250 days (a month is 233ish?) for 500 sid.)
Water                + 315    (Figured as .5 flask per IRL day for 45 sid (roughly allanak price - tuluk would be significantly less.)
Food                  + 350  (We're going with a 25 sid meal per IRL day, (25 x 14))
----------------------------------
Total                 1,465

Non-concrete benefits:
- SAFE training. (You won't find an opponent willing to 'disengage' you out in the desert.)
- Some free gear. (It's quite common for clans to toss new characters a helmet, a gorget, or a breastplate for temporary use.)
- Discounts  on items within that clan. (Which could include that bad-ass gear the indie is bragging about buying.)
- Ability to earn within the clan via crafting, or bonuses for helping fill an order.


Granted, indies can often do away with much of the food and water cost from that list with their freedom to travel to nearby resource spawning points. (Though, with frequent desert travel, the water cost would easily double to the 650 ballpark.)

At the end of the day, if I were looking to get rich I'd go indie over guard/hunter any day of the week, however being in a clan does have more benefits than are readily apparent via your meager salary.

[Cutthroat]

Being clanned, or in an independent group, is far more appealing to me compared to constantly going it alone and making money. For some players, it's the opposite way. And that's fine too.

I feel the economy in Arm is self-repairing. Characters that involve themselves with other characters IG tend to prosper socially, skillfully, and financially. Although a noble or merchant house employee might make 400/month, they get a status boost in their city that no independent person or outsider making 4,000/month can ever claim. Characters that don't involve themselves with other characters will have whatever opportunities are left in game to make lots of money quickly, but they will never have the required assistance to get into plots, or even to survive for a long time. Most characters would and should treat these people like nobodies, because that is what they are.

The game fosters cooperation - not with everyone, but with who it makes IC sense to cooperate with - and rewards those players by giving them unique things to have fun with. At the same time, the game rewards spending time with money and skill boosts. However, the characters that play to hoard money always take a backseat to the characters that run and participate in the game's varied storylines. That is not to say that there isn't room for both kinds of characters, but in the grand scheme of things, rich independents tend to make little to no dent in the game world.

[Delstro]

Well, lets take a mathematical approach:


CLANNED
*Benefits and compensation received or consumed within a month (2 IRL weeks.)

Salary                 + 300
Lodging/storage  + 500   (125 day apartment lease for 250 sid, x2 = 250 days (a month is 233ish?) for 500 sid.)
Water                + 315    (Figured as .5 flask per IRL day for 45 sid (roughly allanak price - tuluk would be significantly less.)
Food                  + 350  (We're going with a 25 sid meal per IRL day, (25 x 14))
----------------------------------
Total                 1,465

Non-concrete benefits:
- SAFE training. (You won't find an opponent willing to 'disengage' you out in the desert.)
- Some free gear. (It's quite common for clans to toss new characters a helmet, a gorget, or a breastplate for temporary use.)
- Discounts  on items within that clan. (Which could include that bad-ass gear the indie is bragging about buying.)
- Ability to earn within the clan via crafting, or bonuses for helping fill an order.

Let us keep being mathematical.

I am going to pretend I am a Tuluki Salarri here:

I am selling one sword, relatively nice, that has a base price of 250.

There are three groups of people:
Unaffiliated commoner that is bound to disappear within the next week (A.K.A. hunters, grebbers, explorers, etc, and they are generally forgettable to a wealthy merchant), I want to make as much money from these types as possible, and don't care about repeat their repeat business.

Affiliated commoner that is bound to be a repeat customer at one time or another, I want to make money from these types, but I also want to leave a favorable impression on them.

Nobles are the third group. They are more than likely going to be repeat customers, and I don't care too much about making money from them directly as they are usually going to be the smallest of the three groups.


For our practices:
An unaffiliated commoner that may die or be forgotten within the next week: This sword would sell for 750+ coins. This is three times the price, and they can usually afford it. Sometimes this sword would be four times the price, if the PC looks like they can afford it or doesn't hassle much.

For an affiliated commoner: This sword would sell for 1.5 or 2 times the price, depending on if their house benefits me or mine.  Translation price is 325-500 coins. If this PC has a long record of buying from me, and I have a lot of coin, I may just gift them the sword.

For a noble: The sword may be anywhere from free to 1.5 times the price, depending on if this house is going to do more buying in the future, and they are agents for when the noble house wants to buy a new uniform weapon for an entire unit.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I say:  if the Staff isn't kicking you in the nuts for what you're doing...guess what:  it's probably alright, man.  Let people make their coins, like it fucking MATTERS.  Coins won't keep your character alive when the shit hits the fan.  Nobody will ever read an original submission that consists of a character sitting alone in a room separating his 100k 'sid into neat stacks, after which he rolls around in them like Scrooge McDuck.  Veteran players/characters will not jump to do your bidding just because you throw ridiculous sums of money their way.  The best you can hope for with money alone is to sit in your expensive apartment typing 'l me' to examine your fancy gear, reveling in your 1337ness.  That is pretty much the extent of money's usefulness as far as the game is concerned. 

...

Really, every substantial relationship that develops in this game occurs because the other player likes playing around you primarily, and other IC considerations like how much coin you have to offer are only secondary concerns...because just about anyone can offer coins, dude.  If people are hanging all around someone with a lot of coins, it probably isn't just because they have lots of coins.  Trust me, nobody is winning Armageddon by virtue of the size of their character's bank account.

I completely agree with you regarding the state of the game.

But it's the state of the game that's exactly the problem (and it's been this way for a long time, and we've gone over possible fixes, and we've beaten that dead horse):

(1)  It is relatively easy for a player that knows how to make money, to make money.
(2)  Since many players can make substantial sums of money, the value of money goes down the drain for the players.
(3)  Since money does not have worth to most veteran players, this creates a discontinuity with the game world, which is supposed to be harsh, desolate, resource-poor, etc, wherein players are no longer playing their characters as we would expect them to be played in that environment.

In short, what I'm saying is that money should matter. 

If you've got 100k in the bank, you're 1000x (or more?) richer than your average commoner.  Sure, PC's are the exception.  But when you've got that kind of a wealth gap, that should mean something in the world.  What about comparing indie PC's to clanned - 100k in the bank?  That's a lifetime of saved up salary for your average clannie. 

The way to solve this problem?  Take away the ability to make money so easily, and players will come to value money again.

[Kryos]

I think NPC merchants should also adjust their prices based on clanned+rank vrs indep/unclanned.   If you're joe blow, they are going to stiff you.  That obsidian sword:  definiely a 400 sid item.  But if Joe, Borsail Wyvern or Tenneshi Aide, walks in.  Suddenly that sword is worth 100.

Though, to make this fall in to place correctly, there would need to be a char-gen shopping place to get some basic equipment for all characters, as the balance of starting coins is just about perfect right now.

[AmandaGreathouse]

They already do that to a degree. I don't think it's too IC to say that with most GMH's at least, when you shop in one of their stores, you get a HEFTY discount, almost wholesale, if you belong to them.

[Kryos]

Yes, but they aren't stiffing indeps or offering lesser discounts to other clanned.  If you factor the economy by a scale of 2-3 this way, suddenly things get a lot more real.

Note: This is for what they will PAY for things, too.  This is where a number of indeps 'grind' out their money.

[AmandaGreathouse]

They ARE stiffing independents. The fact that they're not giving other clanned pcs the same discount is realistic. Your life is sworn to S'larr, buddy, not Kadius. You are S'larr's bitch, so why should Kadius sell you jewelry cheap? Sure, your Kadian agent or merchant may well cut you a deal, but I don't think it would be realistic to draw that line guaranteed, all the way across the board.

And when someone's buying for 2 small and selling for a large, I think that's enough of a mark-up to say that you ARE stiffing the shit out of indies on your buying price.

[Spoon]

How about Nenyuk heavily taxing accounts with more than a few thousand? Maybe this would only apply to commoners. I know it would be more of a OOC workaround, but the whole Nenyuk bank is already a kind of OOC workaround. Basically I see the problem at the moment is that commoners can acquire huge amounts of money with no consequence for having it. I never understood why the city states don't tax the balls off rich, un-affiliated commoners. Just a few VERY basic ideas that need work, critique and elaboration. Directly the problem is that once you play the game a while, you can make too much coin. It's like super-liberal-golden-paved-milk-and-honeyville when you have the know how, which I don't feel reflects the world in the docs.

[Sinna]

How about Nenyuk heavily taxing accounts with more than a few thousand? Maybe this would only apply to commoners. I know it would be more of a OOC workaround, but the whole Nenyuk bank is already a kind of OOC workaround. Basically I see the problem at the moment is that commoners can acquire huge amounts of money with no consequence for having it. I never understood why the city states don't tax the balls off rich, un-affiliated commoners. Just a few VERY basic ideas that need work, critique and elaboration. Directly the problem is that once you play the game a while, you can make too much coin. It's like super-liberal-golden-paved-milk-and-honeyville when you have the know how, which I don't feel reflects the world in the docs.

This is interesting because it might lead to more people keeping coin on their person and this would lead to more theft / murder, maybe.

[Lizzie]

Non-City-Based Tribals should be taxed big-time by Nenyuk if they have accounts at the bank.

Allanak should impose a percentage fee on all goods sold by Tulukis to shopkeepers in Allanak.
Tuluk should impose the same on all goods sold by Nakkis  to shopkeepers in Tuluk.

Anyone should have the same chance to get the "local price" when they BUY..because buying is providing income to the shop, which pays a tax, which provides income to the city.

But people who don't live in that city should have to pay for the privilege of selling in that city, above and beyond the customary merchant's token. There are plenty of people who don't bother getting those tokens, because they never try to sell anything to PCs, so no one gives them any grief for selling stuff to the NPC shops.

[Delstro]

I agree completely.

[Synthesis]

Non-City-Based Tribals should be taxed big-time by Nenyuk if they have accounts at the bank.

Nenyuk doesn't need to tax accounts, because they are getting what amounts to interest-free loans from anyone with more than a few 'sid to rub together.  If they put a fee on accounts, more people would keep their 'sid locked up in their backpacks, and that would be less 'sid for Nenyuk to use for their own purposes.

Allanak should impose a percentage fee on all goods sold by Tulukis to shopkeepers in Allanak.
Tuluk should impose the same on all goods sold by Nakkis  to shopkeepers in Tuluk.

The city-states -do- impose fees.  They're called bribes (or gifts) to your friendly local templar or militiaman.  Generally, you also have to pay taxes to your local Guild agent, and taxes to your local desert-elves, and taxes to the resident rogue magicker as well.  Not paying them is exceptionally unwise, over the long term. 

Anyone should have the same chance to get the "local price" when they BUY..because buying is providing income to the shop, which pays a tax, which provides income to the city.

Selling also provides an income to the shop.  That breastplate you just sold to Salarr for 200 'sid?  They turn right around and sell it for nearly 600.  Sure, the profit margin isn't as good as it would be if they had their own crafters make it, but that's 400 'sid they just made by doing nothing but letting it take up a little space in the shop.

But people who don't live in that city should have to pay for the privilege of selling in that city, above and beyond the customary merchant's token. There are plenty of people who don't bother getting those tokens, because they never try to sell anything to PCs, so no one gives them any grief for selling stuff to the NPC shops.

The GMHs would not like to see indie crafters get hammered on, see above.  Indie crafters do a shitload of work that the GMHs don't have to coordinate, worry about, or even spend a second thought on.  The only time indie crafters become a nuisance is when they are selling directly to the populace.  Even then, the amount an indie crafter can impinge on Salarr or Kadius' profits is really quite minimal.  Pretty much all the cool shit that PCs want is based on House-only crafting recipes that indies can't even attempt to craft.

[jstorrie]

If you aren't making a bunch of coin on the side to add to your clanned role, well, that's your problem. If it entices you to go indie to get sweet loot, go for it; that just means you won't have any friends to protect or avenge you when my clanned PC comes a-knockin' for your boots.

I also would not overestimate the value of hard sid; my last clanned PC died with like 90k in liquid assets. The coin did not matter very much. As a commoner, there are many things you simply can't buy no matter how rich you are–if you don't believe me, play a merchant house agent and try to buy some metal or a mul.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Synthesis, I think that's about the best post so far in this thread.

Jstorrie: Entirely too true regarding assets vs coin in wealth.

Lizzie: Tribals: Find out IC.

[tortall]

Synthesis, I think that's about the best post so far in this thread.

Jstorrie: Entirely too true regarding assets vs coin in wealth.

Lizzie: Tribals: Find out IC.

This. This so VERY much.

[Spoon]

Non-City-Based Tribals should be taxed big-time by Nenyuk if they have accounts at the bank.

Nenyuk doesn't need to tax accounts, because they are getting what amounts to interest-free loans from anyone with more than a few 'sid to rub together.  If they put a fee on accounts, more people would keep their 'sid locked up in their backpacks, and that would be less 'sid for Nenyuk to use for their own purposes.

Yes this makes sense, but my post Lizzie was responding to was about limiting commoners hoards of sids. As a Nenyuk business plan it sucks, sure. But for RP, if people had to actually carry their coins across the desert/city when they wanted to makes large purchases there would be massive employment opportunities for thieves, thugs muggers and bodyguards. People would start to pay the consequence of having a lot of money, rather than having the highly convenient ATM of Nenyuk.

[musashi]

I would be totally in favor of bank accounts being limited to the city that they are in instead of being like a large global network.

[Lizzie]

Well not exactly limiting it to the same city but, perhaps, restricting.

If you're from Tuluk and you're in Allanak and need to use the bank, Nenyuk would charge a fee for "transport services." No waiting time, just a fee. It wouldn't even need to be a big fee - 5%-10% of the transaction (ever use those change machines in supermarkets? You put in $400 worth of quarters/dimes/nickels/pennies and they give you $370 in bills).

And a Nakki using the bank in Tuluk would have a fee. Everyone using the bank in Luir's Outpost would have a smaller fee, except for Kuracis and "official citizens" of Luirs (there's a citizen office in the Post, no idea if it's ever been used).

The point of all these ideas is to provide a money sink, because it's too easy to hoarde wealth, and not have any need to spend it, thus devaluing the wealth and all it can buy. You want to know why some of my characters have taken up apartments in every single building in every location where rentals are available? That's why. Because they've been TOO rich and needed something to spend it on. If Nenyuk had skimmed from the account, my characters would've had to be more careful with their spending, AND their earning.
Earn too much, it'll cost ya. Spend too little, it'll cost ya.

Synthesis is right - what he says is how things SHOULD be. But they're not that way. You -cannot- rely on shelling out protection money to the Guild, the rogue magicker, the local temparate, the local police department, and Amos Borsail. In the 3+years I've been playing, I've had to bribe with just one character. With that character, it made sense for her to stuff several pockets. But she searched..actually tried sending word to the different organizations to let them know she had sids and was willing to pay them. The Guild wasn't active. The templar retired. The other templar got killed. The local unaffiliated assassin didn't play when I did. The raiders liked my character and didn't demand sids.

As for the tribal situation yeah..I know the IC story. I also know it isn't spread among every non-city tribe, and every PC belonging to those tribes, nor is it done in a way that allows tribals to HAVE accounts, but simply be required to pay a fee for the privilege. I know all about the incident. It is totally and utterly NOT what I'm talking about.

Nenyuk should be skimming from anyone who is using a branch of their bank in a city they don't belong to, and it should be a legitimate standard policy of Nenyuk to do so.

[Sinna]

Bribes are not taxes.
Two different things. 

Bribes fill the pockets on an individual and are not enforced by law.
Taxes fill the state's coffers and are enforced by law.

It may seem like the two are related because to the person paying they still loose out, but one is based on corruption and one is based on the rule of law.

[EldritchOrigins]

Why don't clans just pay people more then?  I'll answer.

Clans provide two things that can't be bought with money. Safety and Friends, diferent in some respects but they do overlap.

Sure, not all people in a clan like each other, but for the most part, for the sake of the clan functioning, they back each other up and help each other become stronger/more prominant (even the virtual members and npcs when it is appropriate.  Independents don't have any kind of structure backing them up.  Anything they do, they do alone and if they screw up, it usually costs their life. Friends also give people other people do things with to do things with (That they know that they can pretty much trust, for the most part).  These things are much more difficult to achive with an Indy character.  This sort of thing can't be bought with coins.

Independents are only limited by the amount of time they want to put in.  If they forage salt, or do whatever for 10 hours a day, then they will have something to show for it.  But again, anyone that does anything alone out in the desert is taking a great risk.

If it's a matter of clan people not having enough coins, maybe it is just that people in those roles don't know how to make money.  I've seen some clanned people that seem to be very well off.  But for those that don't know how to make a little on the side, maybe clans should offer special tasks for members to earn extra coins (and want to put the time and effort into something to make that extra coin)?