Subguild with Warrior Skills?

[jmordetsky]

Pretty easy - try not to get caught up on the name - but should there be a subguild that gets disarm and bash with a reasonable cap?

[spawnloser]

Had to vote 'no' as any subguild that has both would basically turn any non-warrior combat class into a warrior, at least until they max out and the warrior keeps getting better.  A subguild that had one or the other, though, I could support.

[jmordetsky]

Had to vote 'no' as any subguild that has both would basically turn any non-warrior combat class into a warrior, at least until they max out and the warrior keeps getting better.  A subguild that had one or the other, though, I could support.

I was thinking on that as well but - I was thinking the most flagrant would be like burglar or ranger in short term vs longer term. Short term - you wouldn't have parry, so you would not be as good. Long term - the caps would get you and you would never be as good as a warrior. It would let you defend yourself against disarm a bit and get the ability to bash.

I'm split myself - voted yes because I think it would be neat, but I don't think the game suffers as a result.

[Xeran Van Houten]

Bash might make sense added to the Guard subguild... or either one, maybe, but considering the trend in pcs not lasting very long, to have both in the same subguild would be like having guild_1/warrior_lite.

[Spoon]

I'd say no, simply because warriors don't have anything going for them expect the fact they kick ass at combat. This isn't a problem, because they're warriors. I also don't think disarm (described in the docs as an 'expert' maneuver) or bash (just full on aggressive recklessness) fit in with any other guild. If you want to be a barbarian swordmaster, you've got to pick the warrior class. These are pretty much a warrior's unique skills.

[Thunkkin]

I think a subguild with a low-cap in each of the four major weapon types plus a low-capped parry would be awesome.

[A Dry, Quiet War]

I'd like to see some subguilds provide low-capped weapon skills.

Hunter, Nomad- piercing_weapons
(Hunters obviously aren't going out with nothing but a bow.  Most human tribals will be handling weapons from an early age, even if they never get that good.)

Thug- bludgeoning_weapons

Weaponcrafter- all weapon types, capped very low.

[jhunter]

I could possibly see bash added to the thug skillset but I wouldn't ever want to see anyone besides warriors using such a specialized combat skill as disarm.

[Twilight]

If bash worked the way it did ten years ago, I would say sure.

As it stands now, with the additional modifiers added in that borked up any sort of bash defense in the extreme cases, I would feel far more comfortable with a moderate disarm being added to a subguild than I would a moderate bash.

[FantasyWriter]

I voted straight-up NO on this one.

Like SpawnLoser said, it would turn any other combat guild into an almost warrior.

[Sephiroto]

I say yes because:

• Subguild skills aren't as robust as primary guild skills
• Warriors are better offensively and defensively than other guilds.
• Simple bashes and disarming movements shouldn't be so difficult to learn that only warriors will have a moderate success rate against an opponent of the same race.
• No matter how good subguild bash and disarm are, a warrior with the same stats, equipment, and off/def will almost always outclass the subguild skill.
  

[jmordetsky]

I say yes because:

• Subguild skills aren't as robust as primary guild skills
• Warriors are better offensively and defensively than other guilds.
• Simple bashes and disarming movements shouldn't be so difficult to learn that only warriors will have a moderate success rate against an opponent of the same race.
• No matter how good subguild bash and disarm are, a warrior with the same stats, equipment, and off/def will almost always outclass the subguild skill.
  

Agree. I don't think having these will allow you to be *near* a warrior. I stand behind:

Short term - you wouldn't have parry, so you would not be as good. Long term - the caps would get you and you would never be as good as a warrior.

I think what it would allow is that your ranger/burglar/assassin/merchant would have some understanding of a soldier skill and as X-D pointed out in the other thread - you would be better at defending yourself against both skills.

[Dar]

If some subguild offers bash, Someone will make a max height RF delf with (non-mundane guild)/thatsubguild, and go off sparring Jihaens. And that's just 'one' example. Please ... let's allow warriors keep their skills exclusive. They are a boring, limited guild as it is.

[Sephiroto]

If some subguild offers bash, Someone will make a max height RF delf with (non-mundane guild)/thatsubguild, and go off sparring Jihaens. And that's just 'one' example. Please ... let's allow warriors keep their skills exclusive. They are a boring, limited guild as it is.

Someone might just do that.  And they'll probably end a very dead RF non-mundane very quick, especially versus the ninja Jihaen class.

Non-mundande guilds + combat subguild skills aren't all they're cracked up to be, even with all sorts of crazy boosts to help.  Sap is a very dangerous skill, but I haven't heard of anyone complaining about certain subjobs using taking advantage of that skill in the same manner described above.   How many HG merchant or magickers do you see running around using a subguild that gives sap to take advantage of their coded strength?  None, most likely.  That's the same sort of argument as your D-elf non-mundane with bash.  Really?  As a non-mundane (your euphemism for magicker) the last thing you want is to fail a bash and end up on the ground!  And against a Jihaen no less....

It would be more benificial for people to devote energy explaining how we can expand the very limited number of skills that warriors class gets, since you seem to find it such a limited and boring class as is, instead of offering up every point possible, well thought or not, that counters the attempts that are being made my players and staff to allow more skill customization thorugh guild/subguild options.

[Bogre]

I think a 'Brawler' subguild that had a boost to starting unarmed, bash, and subdue might be a good one. Maybe the holding liquor, ala mercenary.

[Synthesis]

The only warrior skills I would care about in a subguild (that aren't already in a subguild) are weapon skills and parry.

No point in having disarm or bash if you're not a warrior.

Well...I suppose a non-warrior half-giant would like to have subguild bash, but that's about it.

[jstorrie]

Subguild bash would be pretty attractive to giants/muls, but then so is subguild subdue, which is already available. It's maybe kosher, but what other skills would you put in that subguild? You couldn't put subdue for reasons of balance. Shield use and armor maintenance, maybe, for a soldier subguild? Eh, I'm not sold.

I worry that if parry and disarm were subguild-takeable, the swarm of rangers and assassins with disarm would ensure no one would ever play warrior again. Can't really support that. Warriors need a bit more love, really.

[Synthesis]

I would create a "veteran" or "swashbuckler" subguild with low (pickpocket-style) capped parry, slashing weapons, and piercing weapons.

[number13]

I vote "yes" because it would assist in curtailing guild-sniffing.  The Guard sub-class already sucks enough that adding disarm at a low cap wouldn't hurt anything.

[Gunnerblaster]

Disarm is an amazingly scary skill. I, personally, would not like to see it made into an accessible skill for subguilds.

Bash, on the other hand, would be alright with me - If added to something like Thug or Mercenary. It's a skill that, should it fail - Always puts you at a very dangerous disadvantage. It's a solid hit or miss. Give it a low-ish, but still usable, cap.

I vote No for Disarm.

I vote Yes for Bash.

[Fnord]

Yes, because Pandora's box has been opened with Ranger's unique skills.

[jstorrie]

I vote "yes" because it would assist in curtailing guild-sniffing.  The Guard sub-class already sucks enough that adding disarm at a low cap wouldn't hurt anything.

guard rulz, u crazy

[X-D]

Not to mention, Failing Disarm can be as bad if not worse then failing bash.

[jhunter]

-If- disarm were added to any subguilds, I think that warriors should have a higher starting percentage as a base. I still see it as an advanced combat skill much like backstab for assassins.

[Conspiracy Theory]

I'm all for making the mundane classes less unique, personally. I don't really like the whole class based system thing as a whole in fact.