Discussion for Change to Storm/Darkness navigation

[Bogre]

This is awesomesauce.

[RogueGunslinger]

I never remember losing direction while in cities before. Why is this happening now?

[Kol]

 

My favorite guild is now ruined.

The reason I loved the Ranger uniqueness has now been stripped away.

I could just as easily app a warrior, with one of the subguilds that get this, and be just as effetive, if not more at playing a ranger, minus the wilderness quit.

Personal views.

-Kol

[Nyr]

Moderated a couple of posts that were beginning to stray into IC-sensitive areas regarding magick.

Please ask those kinds of questions via the request tool (or find out in-game).

[Cavaticus]

Some folks in here seem to have come to the conclusion that because the change revealed a certain piece of IC information (rangers and other classes can move in storms) it's now OK to discuss the intricacies of other classes. Please stop.

[Agent_137]

I could just as easily app a warrior, with one of the subguilds that get this, and be just as effetive, if not more at playing a ranger, minus the wilderness quit.

Personal views.

-Kol

Initially, I agreed with you. But then I realized the difference between a warrior/stormnavigator and ranger is more about where you are based than your guild name. Rangers are still masters of the desert, able to live out in the desert for weeks, months, forever if they want. Hell, they could even probably survive if they lost their mount.

But warriors are still deeply city-based, regardless of the change. If you played your rangers as city based warriors with stormnavigation, maybe you should consider what you've gained! Now you can truly play the rough sand-caked solo warrior you've always wanted.

What i'm saying is, yes, Rangers are a little less unique, but if you played them for storm navigation you were missing A LOT. Maybe you should play a warrior/stormnavigator for awhile and see just what's different.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Personally, I think everyone should be able to do this as a "hidden skill" type thing, as to not make navigation through the city aggravatingly impossible. (As it stands as of this posting, I'm predicting a slew of link-deads standing around in the street. I know I have a hard time finding more than an hour at a time to sit down and play, and now a trip from the Gaj to the bazaar and back could be that entire hour.)

OR, city storms should at least be a lot easier to navigate. I mean, you're in a city. You can only go so far until you bump into a wall. And AFTER you've bumped into said wall, you can pretty much just follow it all the way down the street. (At least this is how I've always emoted it in these situations.) I don't know about you guys, but when stumbling down a dark hallway from my bedroom to the bathroom in the middle of the night, I've NEVER accidentally ended up back at my bedroom.

Think about it. How do you have a skill in real life? From experience in dealing with something. (Or even, how do you justify your class choice in your background? Your pickpocket learned to steal out of trial and error, and necessity for survival, right?) Who has to navigate a storm in the desert world of Zalanthas? EVERYBODY. Just a thought....

I would've liked to see only certain other classes get this ability; such as whirans and rukkians, and the hunter subguild (for example) - and everyone else remain as is.

I'd like to see Rukkians get a spell that is beneficial to this. Whirans don't need it - nough said. As far as subguilds go, I personally think hunter, nomad, caravan guide, scavenger, and forester should get it. (Maybe rebel.) Also, THE ENTIRE RACE OF DESERT ELF.[/u] I know a d-elf is already practically a ranger already, but that's sorta realistic, no?


Claiming that this is a nerf to rangers is, in my opinion, unfounded. Lets face it, this is officially the easiest skill to grind EVER, and you can't even get accused of being a twink. Dis-pleased rangers, give your character 5 hours played in less-than-ideal weather, and you'll forget what you were blabbing about.

I like the reference back to skinning. I remember when skinning became an EVERYBODY skill. People cried, "there's no reason to be a ranger anymore!" and they were proven utterly wrong. This is the same thing. The EXACT same thing.

[Marc]

Knee-jerk reactionaries, all of you.

It was an all or nothing ability.  You could either perfectly get through the storm, without fail, every time, or you failed, every time.  EVERY TIME.  How is that good?

Rangers have been the most useful class in the game for a long long time.  Nothing has changed.  They have skillsets everywhere mundane and their max skill levels are hardly in the range of "jack of all trade, master of none".  They ARE master archers.  They ARE master trackers.  They ARE master healers, master brewers, master poisoners, master tamers, master campers, master skinners.  Their weapon skills are second only to warriors.  They have the ability, with three other classes, to gain parry, a cornerstone of combat.  They are one of the most aware classes, the most aware outside the city.  They can climb, they can craft WITHOUT subguilds.  They can be stealthy gits and do very well at it.  Oh, right.  Charge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And now you can't ride through a blinding sandstorm perfectly, guaranteed.  You now might have to use some equipment to help make it flawless.  HOLY FUCKING SHIT!  CALL THE PRESSES THE CLASS IS RUINED!

Calm down   This change hurts no one.  Your rangers will have to consider the weather and turn traveling into an event.  No more "s;s;s;s;s;s;say We made it!" You might get tossed around and YOU have to actually know the terrain to correct.  Learn the land and navigating it becomes easier, albeit slower in a horrible storm.  Anyone here drive slower in a blizzard?

Only input:  Add this ability to animals and npcs.  In a horrible, blinding storm the gith and halflings should be slowed down too.

[jhunter]

I think that it's about time such ability was available for certain other guilds/subguilds. I do disagree with removing the ranger's ability to do it flawless out of the box though. If they haven't been given it already, I can think of two magicker guilds that should get the ability as well since sandstorms are connected to their elements. I'm interested in seeing how this goes.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I feel like a newb now. I have no idea what 'properly equipped' refers to.

And that's not going to detract from the likeliness of my playing a ranger at all ever.

As to the 'dealbreaker' skills from guilds given to subguilds: Good. If it makes sense, allows flexibility, and keeps players from seeing their pcs as a guild instead of a person, I'm all for it.

(Then, I'm still in the camp of giving EVERYONE the ability to quit anywhere.)

That said: I am a bit upset to hear that this is resulting in people getting lost inside cities... As cramped as they ought to be, I don't see someone getting lost easily in a city at ALL. Anyone. With or without the skill. Even at night with no moons, truthfully. Yeah, maybe one room out of 10, at night with no moon in perfect darkness. But with all the storms in the south, I can imagine this is going to be very, very aggravating to work around.

[Morgenes]

I still haven't received a log of any issues with this.  If you are having trouble getting around in a city, mail me a log.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I haven't personally, Morg, I admit I'm going off what I've heard in the thread so far. I'm going to try and log in tonight, and I'll send a log if I am.


Not trying to derail the thread.

[jmordetsky]

The change needed to happen. Objectively - storm nav should be a skill. Warriors don't start with perfect disarm and burglars don't start with perfect pick.  The change is good for the game. I think it sucks to be a 40 day ranger and now have to deal with this, but a) There is equip for you - which is realistic and b) That'll last what a week?

As for calling it a "nerf", meh well - okay, sure. But - it was a nerf that adds to the realism and playability to the game in one swoop. Nerf or not - I'm in love with the change.  (A max desert elf ranger is still the most powerful character in game hands down, so lets call this a "little baby nerf" it's not that big a deal).

For the record though - While I don't I agree the game will suffer without it - I think the suggestion of having other "main" guild skills available as sub guild skills with the proper caps is probably a valid one.

A soldier/gladiator sub with disarm and bash is a great idea.
Adding backstab to thug (or creating another sub)
Adding pick/peek to thief

Are all great ideas. (Mundanes only - mind you - no fire mage subs pls).

[FantasyWriter]

The change needed to happen. Objectively - storm nav should be a skill. Warriors don't start with perfect disarm and burglars don't start with perfect pick.  The change is good for the game. I think it sucks to be a 40 day ranger and now have to deal with this, but a) There is equip for you - which is realistic and b) That'll last what a week?

Agreed.  Loved the change.

PS: As for the other sub changes you sugested... thieves without the ability to "peek" always made me think, "WTF?"

[jmordetsky]

The change needed to happen. Objectively - storm nav should be a skill. Warriors don't start with perfect disarm and burglars don't start with perfect pick.  The change is good for the game. I think it sucks to be a 40 day ranger and now have to deal with this, but a) There is equip for you - which is realistic and b) That'll last what a week?

Agreed.  Loved the change.

PS: As for the other sub changes you sugested... thieves without the ability to "peek" always made me think, "WTF?"

I'm going to post them as polls so not to derail.

[KankWhisperer]

I don't mind the change that much in theory. What I do mind is that a ranger who has been alive for about a RL year is now unable to do what he has spent this time actually doing! Say he was dumb as a brick and learned slow now all the high wisdom rangers going to be better at what the old ranger should be much better at. I -wonder- why people grind skills, we are forced to. How does one explain suddenly becoming less competent? Oh I used to be a master of the sands but naw you better take that new guy to guide you. And what is -really- aggravating is nor knowing what the hell this equipment you need. Go ahead and censor me but what are you talking about?! I mean you could role play a face wrap, a stormcloak, a hood...all as helping? Why is this some more super secret "Find out IC" crap? Every one lives in a practically perpetual sandstorm but oh no we need to keep teh noobs from knowing the common knowledge of what helps you walk in a sandstorm.

[A Dry, Quiet War]

I never remember losing direction while in cities before. Why is this happening now?

Would definitely happen in sand-swirlin' darkness...if you weren't playing a ranger.

[A20B]

Hell...I remember (just once) loosing my sense of direction AS A RANGER, IN A CITY, in his clan's compound (an area he should know better than the area outside the gates he's only been to a handful of times) during a sandstorm at night before this change...Rangers never were PERFECT, from my experience...just close enough to it.

As for this "properly equipped" everyone keeps spouting...I'd hope this info becomes more accessible IG, as I haven't the damnedest of what it is...other than the help files say holding a light source (torch, lantern, whatever) helps in darkness, but I doubt this is what everyone's alluding to.

[Twilight]

I imagine rangers will deal with it IG the same way they had to deal with suddenly not being able to skin perfectly, when that went in.  Or other classes dealt with...things...when changes were made to them.

As for stuff, I imagine that it would be stuff you would realistically use in a sandstorm.  I know I've used certain things on most of my outdoors characters for well over ten years now to "deal with sandstorms".  It is actually very nice to know they now provide some benefit.  I just hope all such instances of such items are updated.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

How does one explain suddenly becoming less competent? Oh I used to be a master of the sands but naw you better take that new guy to guide you. And what is -really- aggravating is nor knowing what the hell this equipment you need.

Old age got to ya!    
It's Arm, we're always making up excuses that wouldn't work IG, with the OOC understanding that it has to be accepted as something else.
Example:"I would love to train hard, Sarge, but I'm really tired and I have to sleep for 12 days straight." = "Screw you guys, I'm loggin' off!"
A simple, "Wow! Haven't seen a storm this bad in a while!" is acceptable. Nobody is gonna think your maxxxed ranger is a dumb newb, and try to take away your big boy boots. We all know you just got "OMGWTF NERFED 3000!" and just need a moment to recalibrate.  

And really, it's not unrealistic that, even after being so studdedly awesome for so long, he simply made an oopsy. If maxxxed people never failed, we would have a lot fewer car accidents from people 30 years of age and older, and I wouldn't have gotten mildly disoriented trying to get from point A to point B last weekend in the same 40 acre woods I've flawlessly navigated since I was old enough to walk and wander.

And what is -really- aggravating is nor knowing what the hell this equipment you need. Go ahead and censor me but what are you talking about?! I mean you could role play a face wrap, a stormcloak, a hood...all as helping? Why is this some more super secret "Find out IC" crap? Every one lives in a practically perpetual sandstorm but oh no we need to keep teh noobs from knowing the common knowledge of what helps you walk in a sandstorm.

Really, I don't like the idea of this one supers3kret item. (If it is indeed 1 item, because it's only ever been referred to as "gear" which is vague and possibly plural.) I think a multitude of items should add small bonuses to aiding desert navigation. Facewraps, sunslits, veiled surmacs, and a variety of hooded, desert-style cloaks. (Has anyone ever READ the stormcloak's mdesc?? That thing is bad-ass, and seriously under-powered!)

[jmordetsky]

Really, I don't like the idea of this one supers3kret item. (If it is indeed 1 item, because it's only ever been referred to as "gear" which is vague and possibly plural.) I think a multitude of items should add small bonuses to aiding desert navigation. Facewraps, sunslits, veiled surmacs, and a variety of hooded, desert-style cloaks. (Has anyone ever READ the stormcloak's mdesc?? That thing is bad-ass, and seriously under-powered!)

That is probably a valid point. We (as players) can help that along though by idea/bug it in game on the web site if you find an item that should have a boost. Remember dudes, there are a lot of items. It's not a trivial task, but it's something that could collaboratively get done.

[Dar]

I remember reading that 300+ sid worth stormcloak mdesc and going all "whoaa" a stillsuit! And then I worn it, looked at the stamina boost it gives me and was .... dissapointed, to say the least.

[evil_erdlu]

Why are people so repulsed by the change? I can't get my mind wrapped around it. Rangers will be less needed? Yeah right.

They're still more observant than warriors. They're still better riders than warriors can ever become and that includes taming wild mounts. They're still the only ones that can 'wilderness-quit'. They still, though modest, receive healing and poisoning abilities. They're still the best skinners. They are still the only class that can 'forage food'. They're still the masters of wilderness-stealth and counter-stealth. They receive additional crafting abilities that warriors can't get.[edited to add]They have maxxed archery, a.k.a wilderness backstab.[/edited to add]

[sarcasm]You are right. Now that folks with 'caravan guide' subguild can find their way in the storms, rangers are nerfed to the point of no recovery. I cannot think of a single other reason rangers can be useful and distinctive. Staff could rather remove the guild altogether.[/sarcasm]

[janeshephard]

Not sure where to put this, but I disagree with this change -- I still don't agree with the spam threads that just popped up in this forum. Please stop posting them.

[Xagon]

My two cents:

I believe a moderate skill-bump should be grandfathered in to current rangers with a modicum of experience about them. While I must admit I'm for the change in general, there are some people who decided to make a ranger to explore, relying on 'uber-awesome storm sense'. There's also the entire idea of an experienced ranger suddenly losing most of their ability, but that's already been beaten to a pulp.

If it hasn't already, I'd like to have this mysterious piece of equipment that helps be revealed, especially seeing that it's only one piece. Over the coming days, it'd also be nice to make sure all the kinks are worked out so the new skill actually works as intended. How does the skill work if people follow in a chain? (A>B>C) If you have a hitched mount, will it fail and go a different direction, even though you could feasibly have your hands on its reins?

While I personally think Ranger has lost some appeal with storm trekking being distributed to other subguilds, I think those subguilds have earned more appeal, enough to make up for the perceived loss. Rangers still have wilderness quit, just as Merchants are the only ones capable of master craftsmanship, or Warriors excelling at combat. Burglars, Pick-Pockets, and Assassins all have their respectable benefits as well.