Gemmed Treatment and Roleplay v.68468176981435

[X-D]

No such thing.

As a matter of fact, the classes you think of as "purely helpful" Are arguably the scariest.

[Malken]

No such thing.

As a matter of fact, the classes you think of as "purely helpful" Are arguably the scariest.

The scariest if they want to be. Also the most helpful if they want to be. Because they can do one thing doesn't mean that they aren't mostly known as people who can create what the masses mostly and currently need.

Anyone can destroy if they want to, but not anyone can also create water and food, out of nothing, as much as they want to.

But this thread is deja vu.. Someone will come and say that the old lady that you think is nice and helpful because she creates water for the poor could also be cursing your babies and blah blah.. Therefore, this thread will go nowhere.

Because we had this thread five years ago and we will have it again in five years.

Obviously, you can't convince people to fear magick, because, if you did, threads like this one wouldn't exist, so I'm just saying why I think it's hard/impossible to convince them. You can argue with me, but it won't change the fact that the majority of the players can't and won't role play fear of magickers.

[number13]

There's no difference except that people are choosing to disregard one part of the documentation over another. When they should follow them the same whether it is regarding templars, nobles, or magickers.

You tend to disregard my explanations, so you'll have to puzzle it out for yourself. Why do people short that aspect piece of documentation, even if they follow all the others?  When you can come up with an honest answer, you'll understand why the gemmed role doesn't work as advertised.

It's no one's fault. It's just a system that doesn't work out the way it's supposed to.  Fixing it means more than saying "Be scared of my Vampire gemmed mage, or else the Storytellers will give you bad notes," because that tactic has been tried, for years, and doesn't work.

[jhunter]

There's nothing to puzzle out. It is a plain and simple matter of you making the choice to either follow the documentation or not. There's nothing else to it. No amount of explaination (read excuses) makes it proper to do so. You can rationalize it any way you choose, it does not make it correct to disregard it.

Why shouldn't my elf ride mounts? I can think of many excuses to use to say that my elf would right mounts. It doesn't make it proper roleplay to do so. The same applies to having your characters all be exceptions to the documentation in regards to magick.

I don't have any problem adhering to the documentation regarding elves, nobles, templars, or magickers. Why is it that it's okay for you or anyone else to inentionally make a decision to disregard it? Does everyone get their own customized version of the documentation to follow tailored to their personal preferences and I just wasn't told about it in all the years I've played?
You do not wish to follow the documentation to the dismay of your fellow players because you don't -like- to rp your characters having fear of magick? That's how it's coming across to me.

[Myrdryn]

What would make players roleplay being more afraid of magickers?

[Malken]

What would make players roleplay being more afraid of magickers?

Coded effects, for sure. Spells backfiring, spells leaving undesirable effects.. Random curses..

Someone mentioned Final Fantasy 13 and how they had the "Magicker hatred" perfectly down.. If someone is near the magicker when they cast a spell, they could get the bad luck of getting cursed for a period of time..

If you stay outside for too long, the sun hits you hard at some point. Why not do the same thing for magickers? If you hang around one for too long, something bad could happen..

Also, make sure not to allow every single new gemmers to be a bunch of angsty teenagers who appear more eager to discover their sexuality than they are with discovering their magick. 

Without coded effects, NOTHING will change. I am sure about that.

[Spoon]

I think if you told people they could get good account notes and possibly karma for roleplaying a fear of magick they'd jump on it.

[number13]

There's nothing to puzzle out. It is a plain and simple matter of you making the choice to either follow the documentation or not.

Me?  Except the one case where I explicitly played an insane guy who styled himself a witch hunter, I generally go for fear of magickers -- overt fear when plausible. But it's often forced, and if someone is making it hard for me to continue, say planting himself at the Gaj and casually shooting the breeze with everyone, or delivering a Vampire-esque "I'm so dark" soliloquy, I drop fear in favor of hate.

Also, if you happen to be playing in an area that's thick with gickers, or a time when Nak is thick with gemmers, it's self-isolating to play up the fear angle too heavily. You end up the lone mundane against the world, and while that can be fun at first, it's not sustainable.

Why shouldn't my elf ride mounts?

I don't know. It really doesn't make much sense -- it's a hold over from Dark Sun -- but it's binary, and so really easy to judge whether a person is breaking that particular rule.

You do not wish to follow the documentation to the dismay of your fellow players because you don't -like- to rp your characters having fear of magick? That's how it's coming across to me.

This is one piece of documentation we've had problems with for years. And it keeps coming up. Why not come up with a solution other than, "The same thing we've always done, regardless of effectiveness?" Telling me how terrible it is that everyone tends to disregard a piece of documentation is lamenting; not building a real solution.

-------------------------

What would make players roleplay being more afraid of magickers?

It's a tough nut to crack with the magick system and social systems set up as they are.  There's balances to consider as well, including the personal fun of magicker players.

Best idea I got, aside from infeasible massive system changes, is to transfer magickers to a sponsored role and provide instructions, oversight over a limited population.  I'm fairly certain a player who can play a Lady Tor as the scariest thing on the MUD can do the same thing for any gicker class, without casting a single spell even, if that's the mandate and expectation.

[Marc]

What would make players roleplay being more afraid of magickers?

Coded effects that can get around the crim-code.

Evil-eyes/curses that are subtle enough that the militia might not pick up on it but will screw with people.

If people know that they are not(entirely) safe in lawful areas, it'll make a difference.  If the line for criminal-free castings gets fudged to include more than cantrips, mages will have a coded way to remind people why they should be feared without risking dead characters.  It works the other way to:  there are coded effects.  The authorities can see those and respond accordingly.

PC's WITH these abilities (most magickers) would have to be bitch slapped hard for abuse.

Dry eyes
The runs
Hallucinations
Uncontrollable sneezing
Not having the ability to CONTROL THE VOLUME OF YOUR VOICE

Fun fun fun fun fun

[spawnloser]

Go spend time around a magicker outside the city gates and piss him/her off.  I can guarantee you, if that magicker has 15 days played, your death will be swift and sure.

Also, there is no such thing as a magicker that is built only to be helpful.  Sure, some have ways to be VERY helpful, and a few have several ways in which they can be helpful too.  However, every single one of them has a way to GUARANTEE your death with only one spell.  I don't think anyone that can do that can be described as purely helpful.  That's like saying that a dude wrapped in dynamite and carrying a mini-gun that also happens to have a backpack that produces food, water, poison cures and a place to live, all upon demand is purely helpful... just because four of the six things s/he can do is helpful means they're purely helpful?  I think that's bull.

Also, I think that your idea to make magickers only sponsored roles will do exactly the opposite of what you expect.  It will do little beyond limit the number of magickers, and make it even harder for them to socialize with anyone.  The only way I can think that this would make them scarier is if they got coded bumps (being that sponsored roles do get this, depending on the type of sponsored role) as well and every player knew this was the case.  This usually comes in the form of bumps to starting skills, though, which would only mean they branched faster from their first tier spells and wouldn't make them any scarier overall.  It may limit the number of non-bad-guy magickers, if that's the goal, but that is like saying that noone can play a friendly thief or warrior, which is to say, a pile of crap.

Regarding people not being safe in lawful areas, I should remind you that places that are not heavily populated at night may just allow you to cast without being crim'd.  Don't assume you're safe just because you're in lawful areas, as most people do when they start getting up in gemmers' faces.

[number13]

Go spend time around a magicker outside the city gates and piss him/her off.  I can guarantee you, if that magicker has 15 days played, your death will be swift and sure.

Sorry, man, but that concept right there why gickers tend not to be as scary as Lady Tors or Lord Templar Fales.  That situation doesn't inspire fear. It inspires hate.  Getting pwned is not fun, and the reaction tends to be "revenge."

Think of how the best of our southern nobles inspire fear, or the nearly cliched crime-lord (who turns out to be an unpracticed pickpocket or merchant.) They don't tend to waltz around blasting people in the face. It's sheer presence, you might even call it bluff, not sheer pwnage.

[AmandaGreathouse]

What would make players roleplay being more afraid of magickers?

Coded effects that can get around the crim-code.

Evil-eyes/curses that are subtle enough that the militia might not pick up on it but will screw with people.

If people know that they are not(entirely) safe in lawful areas, it'll make a difference.  If the line for criminal-free castings gets fudged to include more than cantrips, mages will have a coded way to remind people why they should be feared without risking dead characters.  It works the other way to:  there are coded effects.  The authorities can see those and respond accordingly.

PC's WITH these abilities (most magickers) would have to be bitch slapped hard for abuse.

Dry eyes
The runs
Hallucinations
Uncontrollable sneezing
Not having the ability to CONTROL THE VOLUME OF YOUR VOICE

Fun fun fun fun fun

THIS.

[A Dry, Quiet War]

What would make players roleplay being more afraid of magickers?

Coded effects that can get around the crim-code.

Sums it up.

Lady Fale is scary because she can make ungodly trouble for you even if--especially if--you never leave the city.  The common OOC perception is that the average gemmed mage cannot touch you as long as you stay inside Allanak, or at least not without getting killed or exiled himself.

Magicker-fear, unlike kank-riding elves, can have many shades of expression.  When players have lots of options, their play is likely to be colored by what they think is codedly possible.

[Ghost]

What would make players roleplay being more afraid of magickers?

Coded effects, for sure. Spells backfiring, spells leaving undesirable effects.. Random curses..

Someone mentioned Final Fantasy 13 and how they had the "Magicker hatred" perfectly down.. If someone is near the magicker when they cast a spell, they could get the bad luck of getting cursed for a period of time..

If you stay outside for too long, the sun hits you hard at some point. Why not do the same thing for magickers? If you hang around one for too long, something bad could happen..

While Marc's idea is a very good one, Malken here puts another point.  With the above post, mundane-magicker friendly levels can be brought in accordance with the documentation. 

So... Both of them added to the code would do wonders.

[Synthesis]

A powerful disgruntled magicker could easily kill every living soul in the Gaj before anyone was able to come to the rescue.

I'm just sayin'.  You push a fellow too hard, and he just might push back.  That's why you should be afraid.  Anyone who was at the gates during the last HRPT in Allanak knows what's up with that.

Every commoner in Allanak should be afraid of magick right now, because there have been at least two events in every currently living PC's lifetime that demonstrated exactly how dangerous magick is, in a very real, in-your-face way, right in the Gaj, even.

[Ghost]

A powerful disgruntled magicker could easily kill every living soul in the Gaj before anyone was able to come to the rescue.

But he will not be able to live in Allanak anymore.  I doubt there is a bribe big enough for a templar to forget that kind of "out-in-the-open-magick" especially given the current state of Allanak.  If everyone knows this, the mage has to hate the guy enough to live in the wastes or enough to have himself killed as a result of it.  So, that does not really cut it.

[Synthesis]

A powerful disgruntled magicker could easily kill every living soul in the Gaj before anyone was able to come to the rescue.

But he will not be able to live in Allanak anymore.  I doubt there is a bribe big enough for a templar to forget that kind of "out-in-the-open-magick" especially given the current state of Allanak.  If everyone knows this, the mage has to hate the guy enough to live in the wastes or enough to have himself killed as a result of it.  So, that does not really cut it.

Yeah, because people never commit suicide by cop in real life.

[Ghost]

I am not saying it is impossible.  But to piss someone off enough for them to take a highly possible death is not a common occurrence and will not help to the fear of magick.

Coded minor effects that that go around crime code, also coded backfire/badluck chances on the other hand could be more frequent.

[Synthesis]

I fear sharks, and I have never so much as seen a shark in the wild.

No shark has ever subtly bit me without me knowing it, causing me to have bad luck for days, yet I still fear them.

The problem is with shitty roleplayers, not with the code.

[musashi]

While I don't normally agree with Gimf ... err wait.

I fear sharks in the wild too.
I do not fear sharks at Sea World or the Aquarium, because they can't get at me.
I think there is a comparble analogy there to be had for the gemmed in Allanak.

[A Dry, Quiet War]

Yeah, because people never commit suicide by cop in real life.

The documentation does state that Zalanthans commit suicide at extremely low rates compared to fictional characters in real life.

[Synthesis]

While I don't normally agree with Gimf ... err wait.

I fear sharks in the wild too.
I do not fear sharks at Sea World or the Aquarium, because they can't get at me.
I think there is a comparble analogy there to be had for the gemmed in Allanak.

The appropriate comparison is this:

There is a man sitting in a bar with a loaded AK-47.
There is also a cop sitting in the bar.

Do you spit on the AK-47 guy and kick his stool out from under him, just because you know the cop will kill him if he kills you?

[LoD]

What would make players roleplay being more afraid of magickers?

If universal fear/hatred of magickers is really your MO:

Make magickers rare enough that encountering one is SO much of a surprise that you have no idea ICly or OOCly what to expect or how to react.  I've always felt this should be the sole province of sorcerers and psionicists, because otherwise you basically alienate a good portion of the game's class choices (elementalists) due to this artificial fear factor, which I still consider an errant mission.

If you want mundanes to have an IC reason to fear magick despite the current climate:

Make being near a magicker codedly uncomfortable, disconcerting, or dangerous. Forcing something like "fear" on an entire section of the playerbase requires an environment capable of reinforcing that emotion or maintaining a source of that fear.  Right now, magickers are like guns.  You don't fear them unless they point at you with the ability and intent to fire.  The criminal system in Allanak muzzles them to the point of impotence.  And simply being a magicker, especially one that shares an ale with you at the bar as they chat about their family, hopes, and dreams, isn't enough by itself. 

If you want people to have a somewhat realistic choice:

Remove the universal hatred and fear of magick, and allow PC's to fear the character that chooses to use their powerful magicks in a negative fashion toward their PC and/or civilization.  Asking PC's to fear something that is so prevalent (in Allanak) and where a significant portion of the characters consistently seek non-violent or cooperative interaction with the playerbase sends mixed signals and makes it extremely difficult for both sides to keep honest.

It's like going to a haunted house where the owner tells you, "Be very scared of the people inside, they're CRAZY!"  Except, the people who are "supposed" to be scary not only -don't- scare you, but ask if they can hang out with you or if they can work for you.  After about 5 rooms of people just wanting to be involved with you in some non-scary way, the behavior begins to change your perception.

I still question the motives to maintain this universal fear and hatred for magick wholesale, since it really narrows and limits the social potential for magicker characters.  Why is there such a strong push to maintain this, in spite of it being difficult to maintain amongst the player base as many of these magicker characters strive for employment, tolerance, peace, and social acceptance?  Why can't we fear the character instead of the class?  Making the classes with the highest potential for coded power the one with the least propensity for cooperative, peaceful, and positive social interaction only seems like it will achieve more threads like this.

-LoD

[janeshephard]

Make being near a magicker codedly uncomfortable, disconcerting, or dangerous. Forcing something like "fear" on an entire section of the playerbase requires an environment capable of reinforcing that emotion or maintaining a source of that fear.  Right now, magickers are like guns.  You don't fear them unless they point at you with the ability and intent to fire.  The criminal system in Allanak muzzles them to the point of impotence.  And simply being a magicker, especially one that shares an ale with you at the bar as they chat about their family, hopes, and dreams, isn't enough by itself. 

There are magickers not wearing a gem and remaining as incognito as they can. If "bad" things happened around them they would be revealed pretty quickly.

[number13]

I still question the motives to maintain this universal fear and hatred for magick wholesale, since it really narrows and limits the social potential for magicker characters.  

Class balance, I suspect, may be why things are set up as they are.

If elementalists were brought in-line with their mundane cousins in terms of potential and advancement rate, if their super powers were much less overt, then you could mix the two more readily without as much whining.  At least without as much whining from me. As it stands, the fair trade of playing an ele is a severe social stigma -- which is not enforced via code and therefore barely extant.  (In fact, from a purely coded perspective, the gemmed have superior social options to a mundane.)

Note to magicker players -- the fact that your PC is feared is not supposed to be an advantage. It's flavor or it's class balance. I don't think the intended purpose of magicker fear is to extend the size of e-peens.  Besides, templars and nobles are supposed to have the swaggering, swinging, massive e-peens. That's how the game works, and it's a good thing.

The root of the problem: Too many people have karma to allow elementalists to be a clearly superior class choice over mundanes, or else you end up with Captain Planet rather than Armageddon MUD.  However, the social trade off for choosing to be an elementalist is bad for a game with a small population of players and has proven itself difficult to enforce besides.  

It would require some serious nerfing of elemental potential for it work, or an alternative balancing mechanic put in place, along with in-game changes to how Allanaki society deals with the gemmed.  Changes like that are difficult. In addition to the design and coding work, there would be a shitstorm of complaints from the magick-as-epeen faction.  Probably it's all been thought about and addressed over in Arm.2-land.

Question is then, what, if anything, to do about the Eternal-Problem in arm.1.  The one thing we can categorically say is that, "Roleplay better, you shitty roleplayers," doesn't work.  Arm really does have just about the best roleplayers you're going to find anywhere. If magicker-hate as class balance without supporting code doesn't work here, then it's just not going to work.  That isn't anyone's fault -- so assigning blame and trying to berate people into behaving differently is futile. I know it's futile, because it's been tried for years and years, with practically no success.