Skill grinding

[Twilight]

I find it very disheartening when people start talking about what is possible with magick, and hinting at how it is possible to do x or y.  There are a lot of nuances to it.  It is impossible to tell who knows what nuance.  You, with hundreds of hours behind a list of magickers, may not know all of them.  So lets not hint at those nuances, by explaining how quickly we can do x or y, or that someone else misunderstands because of z.

Coded power can't be looked at in isolation.  Isolation being a key difference in power between mundane and magicker, along with the routinely paraded litany of others.

[Pale Horse]

I find it very disheartening when people start talking about what is possible with magick, and hinting at how it is possible to do x or y.  There are a lot of nuances to it.  It is impossible to tell who knows what nuance.  You, with hundreds of hours behind a list of magickers, may not know all of them.  So lets not hint at those nuances, by explaining how quickly we can do x or y, or that someone else misunderstands because of z.

Coded power can't be looked at in isolation.  Isolation being a key difference in power between mundane and magicker, along with the routinely paraded litany of others.

What I am curious about is how everyone is able to tell which magicker, rogue or not, is really skill min and maxing.  Are they in a position to observe this first hand in the game now, or are they holding on to old memories and what they saw as "twinking?"

If they are observing it in game, why take the complaint to the GDB and not file a complaint as is asked we do in these situations?

[Synthesis]

I think the major issue is that some folks just haven't had enough time and experience to figure out how the skill-improvement system works, despite the fact that it's ridiculously simple.

[mansa]

in my opinion.

First spells should be branched around day 5.   Next should be day 10.   Next should be day 20.  Next should be day 30.

Same with skills.

You shouldn't be able to branch your skills/spells with less than 5 days played.

[musashi]

Gonna be honest, I didn't read much further than the OP, just wanted to chime in and say: Staff ARE watching ... and staff DO address players who are spam training. They have many different tools they use to monitor this game-wide and you will be noticed if you are sitting around not emoting/thinking/feeling at all and just typing in syntax. So I really don't think this is much of an issue in actuality.

[Bast]

Gonna be honest, I didn't read much further than the OP, just wanted to chime in and say: Staff ARE watching ... and staff DO address players who are spam training. They have many different tools they use to monitor this game-wide and you will be noticed if you are sitting around not emoting/thinking/feeling at all and just typing in syntax. So I really don't think this is much of an issue in actuality.

I agree with this the Staff are very good about taking note of players who skill grind. Personally I don't see an issue here. Speaking from personal experience I would rather role play then work on branching any day of the week. Normally the only time I go out an train my skills are when I don't have anyone else to interact with. In fact I played one character for over a year IRL and never branched once with her. As for mages  they are going to branch faster in general because they have a high wisdom. However they suffer in other  ways by not having a whole lot in the way of combat based skills.  People with the Karma to play these classes should be trust worthy enough to roleplay while training and from what I have seen most magicker players are -very- good about doing just that.

[RRiplash]

As a player who usually plays chars who actually leave the city walls on a regular basis, I'd like to put my two sids in.

I don't want my char to die.

I find that I'll act in a grind-like manner for the early stages of my char.  Once I have achieved a level of survivability, I have already gotten bored as hell with the 'grinding', and won't bother with it any more.

And by survivability, I mean survivability; not badassness.  If I can survive a low level encounter, without bleeding out, and can use secondary skills with at least a little consistency, I consider that survivable.  Grinding is fucking boring, and I want to get past it quickly.

Now, if someone was to grind through their whole career, I just don't know...  What's the point?  Now you've got all the skilz, but never got to play for that whole time?  That sounds pretty boring.

[hyzhenhok]

"Skill grinding" and roleplay aren't mutually exclusive. Bynners spar on a daily basis, but they also roleplay while doing so. My experience is that staff doesn't mind you following a rigorous training schedule, as long as its roleplayed realistically. Make your character's motivations clear, relate their actions to their motivation clearly, and don't push it too far (the docs say sparring/spam casting for many days at a time. Which is like 3+ hours RL time). Besides, practice-heavy characters aren't necessarily the most efficient at twinking their skills, as has been mentioned already. If my character is obsessed with practicing X, they might practice X far longer and harder than is codedly useful. For example, a dwarf with low wisdom whose focus is to become the perfect chef might not realize that chaining himself to a stove, cooking for 5 hours a day is not a terribly effective training method, but he'll do it anyway.

Musashi: Using syntax and coded commands is roleplaying just like emotes, thinks and feels are. They're nice, but the only time I would say they are necessary is when your character is doing something that an outside observer might not understand. Generally if my character is doing something weird, I'll use a lot of emotes, thinks and feels to justify their actions for the first few times. I'll include that weird thing in an email to the staff, and eventually when it becomes business as usual with an established motive, I won't feel pressured to use the same thinks and feels over and over again.

[musashi]

Musashi: Using syntax and coded commands is roleplaying just like emotes, thinks and feels are. They're nice, but the only time I would say they are necessary is when your character is doing something that an outside observer might not understand. Generally if my character is doing something weird, I'll use a lot of emotes, thinks and feels to justify their actions for the first few times. I'll include that weird thing in an email to the staff, and eventually when it becomes business as usual with an established motive, I won't feel pressured to use the same thinks and feels over and over again.

That's nice. And I agree with you. I'm just telling you that if you show up on staff radar as say ... having used the cast command 300 times in the past few RL hours but the emote/think/feel commands 3 times ... you will get an email from staff. You may very well be able to explain  yourself and have no problems. But you will be flagged for it.

The thing I'm saying is simply this: staff don't have to catch someone "red handed" to catch them. They have lots of ways to monitor the player base's training activities and they are doing so. So I really don't think the OP's concern is actually much of a problem. I think people who spam train are usually quickly caught doing so and encouraged to change their tune accordingly.

[LoD]

"Skill grinding" and roleplay aren't mutually exclusive.

It's possible that some people in this thread are using the term skill grinding to mean an unrealistic focus on coded progression through excessive or deliberate attempts to raise one's skills, especially when paired with an anemic history of interaction with the rest of the game world.

Working on skills and roleplay aren't mutually exclusive, that's true.  However, skill grinding, as defined above, is usually devoid of any elements that would indicate the person is really playing the character vs. making obvious and deliberate attempts to simply raise skills.  An example of the former would be an elementalist that spent the morning channeling his/her element, casting, studying what they've accomplished, and then spending the afternoon/evening either seeking RP or interaction, or doing non-skill-oriented RP.  And example of the latter would be someone sitting in a temple doing rinse and repeat cast/rest/stand/cast/rest/stand for IC days.

No one is saying you cannot practice your skills, because that's part of the game.  What they are saying is that people who place an obvious focus on skill progression over character progression (which is more of a combination of skill and non-skill use gameplay) can cause negative ripples in the player pond.

-LoD

[hyzhenhok]

"Skill grinding" and roleplay aren't mutually exclusive.

It's possible that some people in this thread are using the term skill grinding to mean an unrealistic focus on coded progression through excessive or deliberate attempts to raise one's skills, especially when paired with an anemic history of interaction with the rest of the game world.

Working on skills and roleplay aren't mutually exclusive, that's true.  However, skill grinding, as defined above, is usually devoid of any elements that would indicate the person is really playing the character vs. making obvious and deliberate attempts to simply raise skills.  An example of the former would be an elementalist that spent the morning channeling his/her element, casting, studying what they've accomplished, and then spending the afternoon/evening either seeking RP or interaction, or doing non-skill-oriented RP.  And example of the latter would be someone sitting in a temple doing rinse and repeat cast/rest/stand/cast/rest/stand for IC days.

No one is saying you cannot practice your skills, because that's part of the game.  What they are saying is that people who place an obvious focus on skill progression over character progression (which is more of a combination of skill and non-skill use gameplay) can cause negative ripples in the player pond.

-LoD

I doubt many people do this, and if they do, as noted above they probably get called on it quickly. I was responding in general to those who expressed the sentiment that there's something wrong with characters advancing their skills quickly. For example, Mansa's suggestion on time restrictions in terms of time played to branch. Not only are some skills very easy to branch (and rightly so) to the point where that would be silly, I don't think there's anything wrong with a character who is hard working and dedicated quickly (relatively) gaining power. There is already plenty of coded and uncoded discouragement when it comes to extreme "skill grinding."

[Riev]

I had a warrior PC once who took like 40d to branch his weapon skill due to having low wisdom. By the end of it, I was doing some REALLY weird things to get those last few ticks to branching, but all of it was IC to not outright murder the people sparring with me. I still feel that 40d was -forever-, but I heard of a PC doing it in 15d which made me outright rage.

One PC achieved some cool things in the game, another just became another name.

[Synthesis]

I had a warrior PC once who took like 40d to branch his weapon skill due to having low wisdom. By the end of it, I was doing some REALLY weird things to get those last few ticks to branching, but all of it was IC to not outright murder the people sparring with me. I still feel that 40d was -forever-, but I heard of a PC doing it in 15d which made me outright rage.

One PC achieved some cool things in the game, another just became another name.

"Days Played" may be an insufficient metric to judge how fast someone branches something.

If, as at least one staffer has hinted, the "skill timer" counts down while you are offline as well as when you are online, it is theoretically possible to get a skill from base to max in less than 2 or 3 hours played, if all you do is log in, practice the skill until you fail, then immediately log out, and only log in until the next RL day or a few RL hours, or whatever the minimum time for skill timer expiration is.

So, if you are someone who plays several hours every RL day, your "days played" counter might tick up very high, because you spend a lot of time doing things that aren't related to skill-gain.  On the other hand, there may be people who only have 1 hour a night to spend playing the game, and they make sure that every night they at least get some training in.  This type of player (assuming the skill timer counts down when you are offline) will have a disproportionately low "days played" time compared to the player who has three or four hours a day to spend playing.  Over the long run, though, the RL time it takes would ideally be about the same.  That is, after 3 or 4 months, both characters would be roughly equal, despite one character having 24 "days played" and the other only having 8.

However, the player who plays more often will probably have many more IC contacts/friends/etc., which in the end are vastly more important than skills, anyway.

[Riev]

Well, what I meant was more that the 15d branch was done though extraordinary means, involving some heavy OOC tactics, and played basically as often as I did. It was just to show that he did it in 15d, and made no real progress other than personal coded progress.

However, the player who plays more often will probably have many more IC contacts/friends/etc., which in the end are vastly more important than skills, anyway.

This. A thousand times, this. So many warrior PCs that think they are the Cat's Meow because they win in spars, but all it takes is one important contact...

[Sephiroto]

in my opinion.

First spells should be branched around day 5.   Next should be day 10.   Next should be day 20.  Next should be day 30.

Same with skills.

You shouldn't be able to branch your skills/spells with less than 5 days played.

I agree.  But unfortunately I branched a spell at 17 HOURS without even trying to branch it.  My character was simply trying to earn enough coins to eat and outfit himself.  Now, I might be crazy, but 17 hours is way too fast.

Not everyone plays their magickers 2,3,5 days before casting their spells.  If you use your magicks with any regular frequency and fail at a regular frequency, which is often necessary for survival, branching magick classes can be entirely too fast.  I'd rather see magickers branch at a rate more consistant with the psionicist class.

[Synthesis]

in my opinion.

First spells should be branched around day 5.   Next should be day 10.   Next should be day 20.  Next should be day 30.

Same with skills.

You shouldn't be able to branch your skills/spells with less than 5 days played.

I agree.  But unfortunately I branched a spell at 17 HOURS without even trying to branch it.  My character was simply trying to earn enough coins to eat and outfit himself.  Now, I might be crazy, but 17 hours is way too fast.

Not everyone plays their magickers 2,3,5 days before casting their spells.  If you use your magicks with any regular frequency and fail at a regular frequency, which is often necessary for survival, branching magick classes can be entirely too fast.  I'd rather see magickers branch at a rate more consistant with the psionicist class.

You guys are making assumptions about magickers, spells, and branching that just aren't true.

There is a very specific reason you branch from tier 1 spells so quickly, and it has nothing to do with spamming or learning faster.

And, I might add, it was changed to be this way for the specific reason that magickers would branch faster off their tier 1 spells.

[Sephiroto]

Please do not assume you know more or less about the code than any of the other players.  The only thing I am willing assume in this case is that you have never been a staff member, and thus should be in no position of authority to explain how the code does or does not work.  17 hours is too fast, plain and simple.  I don't need to see the code to know that's too quick for comfort, but it is my opinion and may not be yours.

There are things we can do to avoid quick branches and skill ups in magicker classes, such as using skills as often or spending more time roleplaying with other PC's.  I really think that's why the classes are currently balanced the way they are, but everyone can't be expected to follow that same flow.  While this is a roleplaying game, not everyone plays this game to tell a fantastic story or sit around the taverns swigging ale all day.  There are a great number of us (many of my mages included) who use magicks frequently from the start for survival and/or do not have the IC social outlets to spend time on.

Another thing to keep in mind all together is the fact that the more proficient we become with the way things work, the easier it is to make things happen, so to speak.  For that very reason I think it might be necessary to consider balancing upper-teir classes for player experience.  A newb mage player with a sorc is bound to have great difficulty branching and surviving due to sheer ignorance of mechanics, but someone with 5 or 10 years of experience might find that they can survive very easily or even indefinitely, barring PvP death.  With the sort of destruction that magick classes can do even at low levels, I would expect it to be IMPOSSIBLE to grow very powerful as quickly as it can be done.

[chavo]

A lot of ideas about training skills are weird in the mud. They say don't practice backstab on a dummy but really you would do that. Someone might paint some vital areas on it and you practice hitting it correctly. But for an assassin you should practice by trying it out on someone first? That seems pretty stupid. Normally when someone is a professional, they practice whatever they are a professional at. If you are a soldier and never train you are not going to be a good soldier and that's fine. If you are trying to be a member of an elite group or a professional whatever, not training would be just as bad as over training.

[Krath]

This thread is extremely depressing, because I know that nothing will be getting changed. The same people will continue to min-max the best they can and recycle flimsy IC excuses, and will continue to get away with it due to the benefit of a doubt this game requires.

It's depressing to see that everyone wants to rush to being the best dude around, and that people just don't seem to realize the joy that can come from failing, or the opportunities that can arise from being weak.

It's depressing that people are putting so much worry and effort into how to grind out their characters skills and justify it, rather than come to the realization that if they don't throw away their characters, they'll become badass on a long enough timeline.

It's depressing that people want to rely on their character's coded skills to do everything for them, rather than interact with the playerbase and use intrigue, plotting, planning, and favors to get things done.

I'm speechless on some of these responses and attitudes in this thread and the others that have popped up over the last few days.

I believe the cause of this is directly related to the EOTWP and knowing the game is going to end soon. No body wants to be a weak character that dies or has no depth before the "last battle happens" is the feeling I get

[Synthesis]

Please do not assume you know more or less about the code than any of the other players.  The only thing I am willing assume in this case is that you have never been a staff member, and thus should be in no position of authority to explain how the code does or does not work.  17 hours is too fast, plain and simple.  I don't need to see the code to know that's too quick for comfort, but it is my opinion and may not be yours.

There are things we can do to avoid quick branches and skill ups in magicker classes, such as using skills as often or spending more time roleplaying with other PC's.  I really think that's why the classes are currently balanced the way they are, but everyone can't be expected to follow that same flow.  While this is a roleplaying game, not everyone plays this game to tell a fantastic story or sit around the taverns swigging ale all day.  There are a great number of us (many of my mages included) who use magicks frequently from the start for survival and/or do not have the IC social outlets to spend time on.

Another thing to keep in mind all together is the fact that the more proficient we become with the way things work, the easier it is to make things happen, so to speak.  For that very reason I think it might be necessary to consider balancing upper-teir classes for player experience.  A newb mage player with a sorc is bound to have great difficulty branching and surviving due to sheer ignorance of mechanics, but someone with 5 or 10 years of experience might find that they can survive very easily or even indefinitely, barring PvP death.  With the sort of destruction that magick classes can do even at low levels, I would expect it to be IMPOSSIBLE to grow very powerful as quickly as it can be done.

I don't have to assume you know less about the code when I have evidence: you and other players are making statements and arguments that they wouldn't make if you all knew what I know.  No, I haven't been a staffer, but I have been playing for a very long time, and I pay very close attention to code-related things...not because I am a twink or trying to get the power-up and win the game, but because my brain just kind of gravitates toward picking problems like this apart.

If the Staff wanted to make magickers branch from their first-tier spells more slowly, I suspect it would be a very simple change to something, because this very simple change has already happened, albeit in the opposite direction, as I said before.  The fact that they deliberately made it easier probably reflects prevailing staff opinion on the matter.

Staff opinion aside, I think it makes perfect sense, given that a) magickers are almost universally feared and hunted and b) they are utterly defenseless without spells and c) most (not all, I know...so please don't try to use this for ammunition) first-tier spells are pretty useless when it comes to PvP. The game is not packed with rogue mages going berserk, nor is it packed with ancient gemmed mages pwning all.  Right now it seems like there is a very decent balance, so I'm actually a little confused as to why this topic is generating so much angst.

The proposed solutions don't even make sense, given the nature of the problem as it's been presented.  If you want mages to interact more and solo spamcast less, the last thing you want to do is make their "newbie" period longer...because what will they do?  They'll sit around and do nothing but spam-cast EVEN MORE to get past it.  It's like pouring gasoline on a fire.

[Sephiroto]

I don't have to assume you know less about the code when I have evidence: you and other players are making statements and arguments that they wouldn't make if you all knew what I know.  No, I haven't been a staffer, but I have been playing for a very long time, and I pay very close attention to code-related things...not because I am a twink or trying to get the power-up and win the game, but because my brain just kind of gravitates toward picking problems like this apart.

I made a generally vague statement about the code because a) speaking in such code-specific terms has gotten me in trouble before, b) discussing how the code actually works is poor GDB conduct, c) making such statements about how one really knows what's going on with the code only reinforces third party perception that one does, in fact, engage in regular twinkish behavior, and d) might make others think you've had access to staff-only information through some OOC means.  I'm not saying this to be accusatory, but rather as a helpful statement to help you avoid any undue, negative attention.

Derailment aside, I think magicker classes can be played responsibly by most players.  You have very valid points about how the game isn't overrun with rampant, berserk rogue mages.  Most of my discomfort comes from my OOC perception of how people are playing mages, such that I feel the average branching time is between 1 day 12 hours and 3 days (or faster) for every race except half-giant, and then a bit longer for upper-level spells.  It isn't fair for those who are playing their mages at a reasonable rate to be forced to branch their spells even slower, but I really believe that number of players adhering to stringent guidelines is in the minority.  I am no less guilty.  I've tried to branch spells before for various reasons.  Some were justifiable, others were not.  In the end, if the staff decides to tune down skill rate of magick spells for all or some classes/players/karma levels, I won't be complaining.  I nearly branched out a sorcerer in 20 or 25 days.  I could do with it taking twice as long.

[Synthesis]

Okay, so maybe I should replace "know" with "strongly suspect, based on extensive experience and observation."

I didn't realize I was submitting this for peer review.

Anyway:  like I said earlier, "days played" may be an insufficient metric, if a certain assumption holds.

Furthermore, I've never felt a "need to branch" that was based on the performance of other PCs.  Usually this desire is innate...e.g. "I need to branch detect trolls so I don't get trolled."  Usually the only "skillgain races" I've been in are PvP spy vs. spy backstab competitions in the 'rinth.

[hyzhenhok]

I'm just not getting this thread. Let's see if I can't work through it here.

Is this about a problem specifically with people who game the system, to get ahead of others? If so, slowing things down universally won't do anything about that. You'll have people who constantly practice still getting better than people who don't, only you're spreading out the timeline.

There seems to be the assumption that twinks are a serious problem. Staff hasn't said anything to that affect. I don't see any real evidence here except for passing anecdotes about how one PC surpassed or branched faster than another PC. The only "twinkish" behavior I've really seen in my time playing is sometimes overly eager use of the teach command, and that's helping other PCs advance quickly, not your own PC.

And there's the assumption that branching is universally supposed to be difficult and take a long time. I really don't think this is the case. Magickers and mundane guilds alike have the capacity to branch quickly without a whole lot of effort, depending on the skill.

The fact that you can easily branch when you aren't even trying is proof that the system works, and is not dominated by twinks. You don't need to be a twink, you just need to use your skills on a regular basis. This is how the system is supposed to work. There's nothing wrong with branching quickly if you are using your skills on a regular basis as long as your character has a reason to be doing so. A ranger living off the land, making use of his skills to survive, will rightfully branch quickly. So will an isolated magicker who is living off of their abilities.

At the same time, there's nothing wrong with not branching, either. Presumably your character has been doing other things with their time that are worthwhile to them as a character. If you think it's unfair that a character who doesn't use their abilities frequently can't keep up with one who does...tough. A character with low wisdom also has a hard time keeping up; it's a basic reality of the game. As with Synthesis' experience, I've never experienced this OOC pressure to branch, or keep up with others.

[jhunter]

The fact of the matter is that all pcs are not created equal. This bugs some people. The fact of the matter is that some players will focus more on different parts of the game than others. This bugs some people. The fact of the matter is that the staff watch us play. Especially those playing karma roles. The fact of the matter is that alot of players cannot stand someone going about the game differently or having a different preference as to what they enjoy doing when playing the game. This is the true problem that needs to be solved and it can only be solved by each of us focusing on our own play, letting the staff deal with any problems, and having the attitude of: "To each his/her own."

[allieday1]

If I want to change something in my life and it causes me to learn something. I go at it full speed and learn it. So if I was a mage in real life and I had a set of spells that would in turn make my life easier, you better believe I be grinding them. Same as when I had test coming up in school, work and so on. Now role play is the biggest part of the game but remember when you pick a class from the start you are building from that class. So make life as it, if a mage then live some and the grind some. Because that WOULD be a way of life. I have always seen how people down grinding on mages, hunters, warriors and even to foraging, but think if you get paid to dig then you pretty much dig all day in your job with small breaks. It really should be in the players mindset and them going off of who the character is. And not just a IMM or other pc that happens to see you foraging or grinding, but has missed the fact you left a tavern and had a blast with people there and they had a blast with you.