Skill grinding

[Kryos]

So, in a few threads recently I've seen people admit, suggest they see it often, or attempt to justify behavior that's focused entirely around skilling their characters up. 

One common idea is that mages are 'devoted' to their element, so they should spam cast with no problem.  And people then note that the Byn, or other military clans, have training schedules that make them fight on a regular basis.

Mansa suggests making it harder to improve/branch magics.  This seems to be a fine point to discuss.  Physical classes have their combat skills rise *very* slowly.  In no way shape or form can they even be 1/10th as fast as a magick class in the rapidity of their growth.  So . . . two questions/requests come to mind.

1)  Would/should staff crack down on people with behavior that's focused on skilling up and metagaming?  The grinding mentality *does* need to be stamped out.  Its about role play, not about winning, and I've experienced people trying to cheat the code many times in my play.  I don't like it.  (I'm all over this.  Drop the hammer please.)

2) Should magick skills be tweaked to take much longer to improve?  If hammering down on the bad behavior can't be done, can this symptom be treated? If so, what does it achieve? (I don't like this, simply because mundane guilds can/do act in the grinding mentality too)

[mansa]

I don't think staff should ever step in and do something, as long as the code allows it to happen.

The reasoning behind this is that:

A) Staff can't watch everybody all the time and
B) Some people will slip through the cracks.


That really only leaves option 2, which is a code change.   Code changes are nice because they are impartial and they effect everybody the exact same.

[janeshephard]

Instead of going on this crusade, why not just file player complaints when you see it?

[MeTekillot]

Instead of going on this crusade, why not just file player complaints when you see it?

Did you even read the first part of this thread?

[janeshephard]

Instead of going on this crusade, why not just file player complaints when you see it?

Did you even read the first part of this thread?

Yep, and the other three threads that spawned this topic. Really, there's no need to be rude this way.

[Synthesis]

The OP is entirely wrong about the mechanics of skill improvement, with respect to magickers versus mundanes.

You can't say anything more about it without getting into too much mechanics-related detail.

There is no problem.

[X-D]

In no way shape or form can they even be 1/10th as fast as a magick class in the rapidity of their growth.

This is so Very Very VERY wrong, so wrong it makes the entire premise of the thread wrong.

And I really wish somebody would explain to me how skilling up is not roleplay?

Charles Barkely was NOT a talented basketball player, he had to train for 4-10 hours a day, every day of his childhood and beyond to make it. Tiger woods was brought up with golf clubs in his ass and the williams sisters the same in tennis. The desire to be great is something people have. Muk would not be the sun king if he did not skill up, the same for any of the other in game leaders.

Most people do not want to play PCs content with the lot they have drawn in life. And in order to become Great in something, one must devote massive ammounts of time to it. This is indeed roleplay.

[Gimfalisette]

I have experienced one systemic problem in game which does lead to skill-grinding and which I do think needs correction, for magickers. And that is the boredom that is often to be found, especially in the gemmed role. Once you have checked every temple in the Elementalists' Quarter for other gemmed (and found no one), visited all the taverns (and been ignored, or blatantly sexually hit on by mundanes), tried to find your bosses' minds (and gotten little to no help, if you're even fortunate enough to have bosses), tried to find your clanmates (if you're lucky to have any, in the one clan you're allowed to join), cased the bazaar for new stuff to buy, smoked your spice and drunk your drink, etc...then all that's left to do is to sit in your temple and cast. There is just a lot of built-in boredom, and not enough positive interaction potential, in the role of a magicker, so magickers often resort to casting simply in order to have something to do.

LoD has spoken elsewhere about how things could be different and positive or constructive interaction could be encouraged by the right system. As it stands now, I do not expect this problem to be fixed in the current version of ARM, so the system will continue to encourage spam-casting by magickers.

Skill-grinding for mundanes is a somewhat different beast, and is often curtailed nicely by clan rules.

[Salt Merchant]

In no way shape or form can they even be 1/10th as fast as a magick class in the rapidity of their growth.

This is so Very Very VERY wrong, so wrong it makes the entire premise of the thread wrong.

X-D is correct. In fact, I think it's set up so that trying too hard to advance at spellcasting is actually counterproductive.

[jhunter]

In no way shape or form can they even be 1/10th as fast as a magick class in the rapidity of their growth.

This is so Very Very VERY wrong, so wrong it makes the entire premise of the thread wrong.

X-D is correct. In fact, I think it's set up so that trying too hard to advance at spellcasting is actually counterproductive.

Heh, yeah. No matter how much someone practices there is still the limitation of the character's wisdom score to determine how often they advance in a skill. Magickers are no different except that compared to physical classes, they tend to end up with much higher wisdom allowing them to learn at a more rapid rate. If you created a combat-based pc with wisdom prioritized, they would likely suck out of the box but would progress very rapidly compared to those that focused on strength, agility, or endurance.

[Kastion]

I dont see whats so bad about training frequently. On any of my characters that are combat oriented that have joined a combat oriented clan I have been put into life threatening situations in the first 2 weeks of play, definently not enough time to get my skills up. I am also getting tired of the "awesome RPer" hypocrits that sit in the tavern for 4 days straight and then tell me my character is doing something "unrealistic" when their job is to be a soldier.

[Cutthroat]

Training frequently =/= training constantly.

It is perfectly reasonable to practice during acceptable times, but going beyond that or going for a long time without break is considered poor form.

For example, if you're training/spam-casting for the entire day... why isn't your PC taking a break from it when they need to?
It makes much more sense to follow a clan schedule or otherwise restrict training reasonably.

FAQ 9                                                              (Newbie)

How do I learn skills?
----------------------
   In almost every instance, skills and spells are learned by practice. If
your character has some basic knowledge of a skill or spell (i.e., if it
appears in your 'skills' list), then it will improve by doing it over and
over again. When you fail in an attempt to use a skill or spell, there is a
chance it will improve.
   Note that while repetition can improve skill, doing so to the exclusion
of other activities in the game is considered very poor role-playing, and
is looked on very negatively by the immortals (staff members). The aim of
the game is not just to accrue skills and skill points, although such will
normally be part of a character's life. As long as practice is done
realistically, no one will mind too much.
   It is when characters spar for several game days continuously, without a
break, or when characters cast spells again and again for several days,
that one must ask if such would be the case, realistically speaking.
Obviously, we are playing in a fictional game, but even so, would it be
realistic for someone to spar for days, without stopping to eat, sleep,
talk to friends, and so on? If in doubt, ask yourself if what you are about
to get your character to do is realistic.
   There are two exceptions to the practice rule. First, language skills
are learned only by listening to better speakers. It takes a very long time
to finally get the hang of a language (i.e., to have it appear in your
'skills' list), but after that the learning curve goes up very fast.
   Second, many spells and skills can be taught. You must already have some
basic knowledge for an expert to teach you. Experts are simply other
characters who are accomplished at the spell or skill you wish to learn. If
they agree to teach you, your ability can jump dramatically, with
instruction over time. When learning from another character, or teaching
another character, remember to role-play the lesson.

See also:
   skills, teach

Emphasis mine, and I think it spells out expectations very clearly.

[Kastion]

Getting drunk every day till you cant stand will eventually make you retarded, but no one RPs that. There are many other examples that no 1 RPs. But trying to get to a point where your character wont die to a gortok is sooooooooo unacceptable. Whatever.

[Kastion]

Actually I have another point to add to this discussion. This is another aspect of this game that makes it completely anti-newbie. All the veterans know what can kill them, how strong they have to be, what skills are good to get up, stuff along those lines which are completely OOC. So they can use their OOC knowledge to supplement lack of skills. A newbie walks into a room and sees a kylori which looks like a harpi and from every other game they have ever played harpies completely suck. So they try to kill it and end up dying. I do agree that training all day long is poor form, but the "elite rpers" twink out on none skill training aspects and then talk down to people who train frequently. Its stupid.

[jcarter]

This thread is extremely depressing, because I know that nothing will be getting changed. The same people will continue to min-max the best they can and recycle flimsy IC excuses, and will continue to get away with it due to the benefit of a doubt this game requires.

It's depressing to see that everyone wants to rush to being the best dude around, and that people just don't seem to realize the joy that can come from failing, or the opportunities that can arise from being weak.

It's depressing that people are putting so much worry and effort into how to grind out their characters skills and justify it, rather than come to the realization that if they don't throw away their characters, they'll become badass on a long enough timeline.

It's depressing that people want to rely on their character's coded skills to do everything for them, rather than interact with the playerbase and use intrigue, plotting, planning, and favors to get things done.

I'm speechless on some of these responses and attitudes in this thread and the others that have popped up over the last few days.

[Kastion]

This thread is extremely depressing, because I know that nothing will be getting changed. The same people will continue to min-max the best they can and recycle flimsy IC excuses, and will continue to get away with it due to the benefit of a doubt this game requires.

It's depressing to see that everyone wants to rush to being the best dude around, and that people just don't seem to realize the joy that can come from failing, or the opportunities that can arise from being weak.

It's depressing that people are putting so much worry and effort into how to grind out their characters skills and justify it, rather than come to the realization that if they don't throw away their characters, they'll become badass on a long enough timeline.

It's depressing that people want to rely on their character's coded skills to do everything for them, rather than interact with the playerbase and use intrigue, plotting, planning, and favors to get things done.

I'm speechless on some of these responses and attitudes in this thread and the others that have popped up over the last few days.

best way to live a long time A: never leave the city or b: get your skills up. thats the point of this debate. No one is saying they cant gain RP from failing, they are just saying that you have your point of view and it is that we are all twinks that just want to max out and pwn your character. You talk about all the plots and intrigues and stuff that we should get in but guess what my newbie bynner cant get into stuff like that cause he is not important. Then 2 weeks later when I find something cool out he gets killed by a gortok. So I make a new char and repeat the process and die once again. You have your point of view and refuse to even CONSIDER other peoples points of view, so practice what you preach brother.

[Synthesis]

This thread is extremely depressing, because I know that nothing will be getting changed. The same people will continue to min-max the best they can and recycle flimsy IC excuses, and will continue to get away with it due to the benefit of a doubt this game requires.

It's depressing to see that everyone wants to rush to being the best dude around, and that people just don't seem to realize the joy that can come from failing, or the opportunities that can arise from being weak.

It's depressing that people are putting so much worry and effort into how to grind out their characters skills and justify it, rather than come to the realization that if they don't throw away their characters, they'll become badass on a long enough timeline.

It's depressing that people want to rely on their character's coded skills to do everything for them, rather than interact with the playerbase and use intrigue, plotting, planning, and favors to get things done.

I'm speechless on some of these responses and attitudes in this thread and the others that have popped up over the last few days.

Dude, you don't have to "grind" to become badass quickly.  If you have decent wisdom, all you need is maybe one or two failures an IC day to actually improve.  The idea that this takes some sort of game-breaking myopic nose-to-the-grindstone mentality is absurd.

[X-D]

Dude, you don't have to "grind" to become badass quickly.  If you have decent wisdom, all you need is maybe one or two failures an IC day to actually improve.  The idea that this takes some sort of game-breaking myopic nose-to-the-grindstone mentality is absurd.

QFT

And to add, same for mundanes.

[Cutthroat]

Even if it's impossible to advance unnaturally quickly (and I agree that it is) I think jcarter's post was directed at those who think it is still possible. Those people act on their thoughts the way you might expect, and detract from the overall setting of the game, and I think that could be considered depressing.

[Jingo]

Dude, you don't have to "grind" to become badass quickly.  If you have decent wisdom, all you need is maybe one or two failures an IC day to actually improve.  The idea that this takes some sort of game-breaking myopic nose-to-the-grindstone mentality is absurd.

QFT

And to add, same for mundanes.

Hate to say it, but my own expierience is otherwise.

I played a long lived hidden mage that practiced her skill almost every play session but only for a short period. She would cast all six of her starting spells and then get up and leave since she had a prominent social role.

It took fifteen days to branch and died soon afterwards.

[Synthesis]

Dude, you don't have to "grind" to become badass quickly.  If you have decent wisdom, all you need is maybe one or two failures an IC day to actually improve.  The idea that this takes some sort of game-breaking myopic nose-to-the-grindstone mentality is absurd.

QFT

And to add, same for mundanes.

Hate to say it, but my own expierience is otherwise.

I played a long lived hidden mage that practiced her skill almost every play session but only for a short period. She would cast all six of her starting spells and then get up and leave since she had a prominent social role.

It took fifteen days to branch and died soon afterwards.

The key is FAILURE.

Everyone knows you have to -fail-.

Also, not all failures are created equal, when it comes to spells.  So yeah, call that a "learning experience" and try something different next time.

[janeshephard]

Hate to say it, but my own expierience is otherwise.

I played a long lived hidden mage that practiced her skill almost every play session but only for a short period. She would cast all six of her starting spells and then get up and leave since she had a prominent social role.

It took fifteen days to branch and died soon afterwards.

My own experiences have been similar to this. It's not easy-mode by any means.

[jcarter]

Dude, you don't have to "grind" to become badass quickly.  If you have decent wisdom, all you need is maybe one or two failures an IC day to actually improve.  The idea that this takes some sort of game-breaking myopic nose-to-the-grindstone mentality is absurd.

Even if it's impossible to advance unnaturally quickly (and I agree that it is) I think jcarter's post was directed at those who think it is still possible. Those people act on their thoughts the way you might expect, and detract from the overall setting of the game, and I think that could be considered depressing.

The point of the post was that people seem to be putting way too much concern into their skills than should be for a game that's supposed to be roleplaying first, code second.

The same people will continue to min-max the best they can and recycle flimsy IC excuses, and will continue to get away with it due to the benefit of a doubt this game requires.

I have no doubt that people can find IC justification to practice their skills down to within the exact millisecond that is optimal to get it raised again. Or that they can find an IC reason to practice hide, climb, basketweaving, scan, slashing, piercing, chopping, and bludgeoning weapons within five minutes of each other.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't think the problem is as big as you're making it to be.


Off topic but:

The point of the post was that people seem to be putting way too much concern into their skills than should be for a game that's supposed to be roleplaying first, code second.

We're a RPI which means you have to roleplay. That doesn't mean that some people won't enjoy the coded aspects of the game moreso that the roleplaying, or that roleplaying is supposed to come "first" before code.

The truth is it's usually a mix of battling with the frustration of the coded grind, and the pleasure of the roleplay, and depth to your character that your coded abilities add. That's what makes the game for me. And yes, often times I'll focus more on coded play, so that when it comes time for my character to shine, he's not just a bag of hot air.

You say playing the inept, the weak, and the unpowerful can be fun. While I don't necisarilly disagree, everyone starts out underpowered. As soon as you start the game you are as inept as you can possibly be. And the truth of it is, I'm sick of being inept after 50+ characters, and am sick of role playing that ineptitude for each and every one.

[FantasyWriter]

I'm sick of being inept after 50+ characters, and am sick of role playing that ineptitude for each and every one.

This does get old.