Moons, going up or coming down?

[spawnloser]

You know, I don't think this needs too much elaboration.  The thing that annoys me the most of late is that you can't tell if a moon is rising or setting.  You see it high in the sky or low in the sky, with low in the sky being used to describe both rising and setting.  Why not get a 'low in the eastern sky' for rising and 'low in the western sky' for setting?  It's all determined by the spin of the planet, so they'd rise the same east/west as the sun.  We could then play with where they come in north/south for realism, making the season determine how far north/south as the moons themselves orbit the planet, stuff like that.

Anyway, the real reason to have the 'eastern' vs 'western' differentiation is so that people can predict dark nights without having to watch the moons on a regular basis.  It simply makes sense that they wouldn't have to be a wandering astrolabe to know if the moons are rising or setting.

[Gimfalisette]

Agreed. This would be a helpful change.

[Zoltan]

This would be very cool.

[Salt Merchant]

The moons are messed up.

They don't appear to have phases, for starters. They're just high or low.

Both Jihae and Lirathu stay high in the sky for many days at a time, which is astronomically absurd. To do this, they'd need orbital periods that approximate the planet's own rotation. If they did have such orbital periods, they'd rapidly pass through all the phases and be new moons (invisible) sometime during the midday instead of begin constantly visible.

They never eclipse each other? Impossible. It should happen at least once in a while, even if their orbits are relatively skewed.

I don't even know about the new black moon. Why is it visible at all? If it's visible through reflected light (i.e. it's not a perfect lightsink), then it should be most visible at night, rather than disappearing at night and being visible in the day.

EDIT: I suppose Jihae and Lirathu could be partly explained if they emit their own light instead of reflecting the sun's light. They'd have to be extremely bright to be able to compete with Suk-Krath in the day, though.

[Zoltan]

It's... MAGICK! *wiggles fingers*

Yeah, I know, it's all messed up.

[Gimfalisette]

I don't think it's a good idea to discuss moon mechanics further than what was in the OP's post. "Find out IC," etc.

[Nyr]

The moons are messed up.

They don't appear to have phases, for starters. They're just high or low.

Can this not be explained by Zalanthas never passing between Suk-Krath and the moons, however unlikely it may seem?  I'm genuinely curious, since that seems as though it is a possibility that would explain the situation.

Both Jihae and Lirathu stay high in the sky for many days at a time, which is astronomically absurd. To do this, they'd need orbital periods that approximate the planet's own rotation. If they did have such orbital periods, they'd rapidly pass through all the phases and be new moons (invisible) sometime during the midday instead of begin constantly visible.

Astronomically absurd, maybe, but is it astronomically impossible?  If Zalanthas never passes between Suk-Krath and the moons (however absurd or unlikely that premise be), you never get any moon phases.  Again, not saying it makes the absolute best sense (after all, it is far more likely to have moon phases, one would think), just playing devil's advocate.  I am not an astronomer, astrophysicist, or anything like that.

They never eclipse each other? Impossible. It should happen at least once in a while, even if their orbits are relatively skewed.

Impossible, or just unlikely?

I don't even know about the new black moon. Why is it visible at all? If it's visible through reflected light (i.e. it's not a perfect lightsink), then it should be most visible at night, rather than disappearing at night and being visible in the day.

This was explained elsewhere (I hope).  If you assume the black moon is indeed a moon, you can compare many of its attributes to our moon.

The moon itself is actually made of rather dark stuff, and moon rocks brought to earth actually look a lot blacker than white. The reason the moon looks like it reflects a lot of light is really just that the space outside it reflects none (and thus is very very dark) and that makes the small amount of light reflected by the almost black moon make it look like a pale white. "White" here just means that there is no color that is really preferentially reflected to make it appear colored.

If the moon appears grey or dark or black, can't the same be said?  (Genuine question, and if the answer is genuinely "no," then obviously you the player can assume something is fucked up with this "moon.")

EDIT: I suppose Jihae and Lirathu could be partly explained if they emit their own light instead of reflecting the sun's light. They'd have to be extremely bright to be able to compete with Suk-Krath in the day, though.

Occam's razor is the best way to approach any of these issues with Zalanthan physics, astronomy, and astrophysics.  If you can think of a way that something could legitimately occur with the physics of our universe...

[mansa]

Some good help files to read are:

http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?jihae

http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?lirathu

http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?moon

http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?time

Suk-Krath rises in the east, sets in the west.
Lirathu rises in the southeast, sets in the northwest.
And, as far as I can tell, Jihae also rises in the east, and sets in the west

...as per this log: http://www.armageddon.org/rp/logs/log.guild.html

Thank goodness for a google site search.

I think it would be cool if weather was expanded more.

[Ampere]

heh

In a world of magick, these things concern you?  Especially the black moon--a moon you watched come into being during a magickal cataclysm. There are so many flaws in technological continuity, but no, it's the moons that make no sense. Well done.

[Salt Merchant]

heh

In a world of magick, these things concern you?  Especially the black moon--a moon you watched come into being during a magickal cataclysm. There are so many flaws in technological continuity, but no, it's the moons that make no sense. Well done.

I feel quite justified in mentioning these inconsistencies. You know, when other people raise subjects such as wounds healing too quickly (in a fantasy world where dwarves and elves run about) and claim "realism" for removing "who c" (in a fantasy world where people can perform telepathy) and go on about realism in many other cases and without being sneered at. Thanks for asking, though.

[Salt Merchant]

They don't appear to have phases, for starters. They're just high or low.

Can this not be explained by Zalanthas never passing between Suk-Krath and the moons, however unlikely it may seem?  I'm genuinely curious, since that seems as though it is a possibility that would explain the situation.

No.. if they didn't, they wouldn't be orbiting Zalanthas. They can't just hang there and obey gravity at the same time.

Both Jihae and Lirathu stay high in the sky for many days at a time, which is astronomically absurd. To do this, they'd need orbital periods that approximate the planet's own rotation. If they did have such orbital periods, they'd rapidly pass through all the phases and be new moons (invisible) sometime during the midday instead of begin constantly visible.

Astronomically absurd, maybe, but is it astronomically impossible?  If Zalanthas never passes between Suk-Krath and the moons (however absurd or unlikely that premise be), you never get any moon phases.  Again, not saying it makes the absolute best sense (after all, it is far more likely to have moon phases, one would think), just playing devil's advocate.  I am not an astronomer, astrophysicist, or anything like that.

Even if they could hold in near-geosynchronous orbits (which truthfully should result in their interfering with each other gravitationally or even breaking apart), they'd have to pass through rapid phases as described.

They never eclipse each other? Impossible. It should happen at least once in a while, even if their orbits are relatively skewed.

Impossible, or just unlikely?

Impossible. There would be two points in the inner moon's (Jihae's) orbit in which it would occlude the outer moon (Lirathu), regardless of how tilted their orbits are.

EDIT: Actually, it isn't impossible, technically. One would have to have an orbital period that is a precise multiple of the other though. Which I suppose, in-game, they do.

[Ampere]

heh heh

Moons are up there, and wounds are down here.  I would say discussing the mechanics Zalanthan moons is like discussing the mechanics of god.  Best of luck.

؟...

Oh...and we sneered.

[Salt Merchant]

heh heh

Moons are up there, and wounds are down here.  I would say discussing the mechanics Zalanthan moons is like discussing the mechanics of god.  Best of luck.

؟...

Oh...and we sneered.

Your personal opinion is noted.
For what it matters.

[Nyr]

Good points; I'll be sure that this is looked at for Armageddon Reborn at the very least.  As for the OP, it is also a good idea.  I do not know how feasible either item would be, but they are cool ideas.

heh heh

Moons are up there, and wounds are down here.  I would say discussing the mechanics Zalanthan moons is like discussing the mechanics of god.  Best of luck.

؟...

Oh...and we sneered.

Your personal opinion is noted.
For what it matters.

Get a room, or read this:

We are going to start removing posting privileges for those that deliberately flame, bait or otherwise go against the rules of this board. This includes both the initiator AND responders.

Keep it up and you'll both be banned for a week.

[Salt Merchant]

I don't even know about the new black moon. Why is it visible at all? If it's visible through reflected light (i.e. it's not a perfect lightsink), then it should be most visible at night, rather than disappearing at night and being visible in the day.

This was explained elsewhere (I hope).  If you assume the black moon is indeed a moon, you can compare many of its attributes to our moon.

The moon itself is actually made of rather dark stuff, and moon rocks brought to earth actually look a lot blacker than white. The reason the moon looks like it reflects a lot of light is really just that the space outside it reflects none (and thus is very very dark) and that makes the small amount of light reflected by the almost black moon make it look like a pale white. "White" here just means that there is no color that is really preferentially reflected to make it appear colored.

If the moon appears grey or dark or black, can't the same be said?  (Genuine question, and if the answer is genuinely "no," then obviously you the player can assume something is fucked up with this "moon.")

No.. again, it depends on whether the moon is visible by reflected light. A dark moon would just have a lower albedo and reflect less light. Something that is dim would be more visible at night than during the day. A totally black moon (albedo of 0.0) shouldn't be visible except when it blocks out the background.

[LauraMars]

It would be interesting to have a more realistic and detailed astronomy for the world.  Even if it's just a little bit, like moon phases or where celestial bodies happen to be rising or setting.

[hyzhenhok]

I always treat astronomy in fantasy as something you cannot assume has much correlation to real life.

As far as I know, there's not any basis for assuming the Zalanthas is a round planet, or that the Zalanthas-Suk-Krath system and Zalanthas-Moons system are even based on gravity and orbit. You should probably not be upset by the idea that your fantasy world might follow a fantasy physics model.

On-topic, I'd say detail on whether the moons are rising or falling would be damn helpful. Given that the moons do provide light codedly in certain circumstances, it would be nice if we simply glance, see whether the moon is rising or falling (our characters would have noticed over the course of the hours), so we can predict. As an example, if I'm an assassin or something, I'd like to know if Lirathu is going to set and allow me to commit this brutal crime in the middle of Caravan Road under cover of darkness.

[spawnloser]

As for the OP, it is also a good idea.  I do not know how feasible either item would be, but they are cool ideas.

Hey, the rest was a dream, but the main points the sticker. 

[Sephiroto]

What if: Zalanthas is actually a moon of Jihae or Lirathu.
What if: Zalanthas orbits Jihae or Lirathu and the remaining "moon" actually orbits Zalanthas.  And, no matter how unlikely, the other moon orbits the same body that Zalanthas orbits.
What if: Zalanthan moons orbit in a highly elliptical pattern, which would cause them to remain in the sky for long periods of time.
What if: Zalanthas it not a planet, but a flat world magickally constructed by a being with god-like powers.

Also, I agree with LauraMars.  Astronomy is an important tool for time keeping and terrestrial navigation.  I've often been amazed by the profound complexity of Zalanthan geography, yet disappointed that astronomy was neglected.

[Chettaman]

Have you guys seen the moons move yet?

[Aaron Goulet]

What if the "black moon" really isn't a moon at all, but a constantly moving hole in the sky? 

[Thunkkin]

What if the "black moon" really isn't a moon at all, but a constantly moving hole in the sky? 

I KNEW I dropped my bag of holding somewhere!

[Oleupata]

Why are you all so comfortable assuming that the moons obey ballistically-determined trajectories?

[Gagula]

Why are you all so comfortable assuming that the moons obey ballistically-determined trajectories?

You all heard it, straight from the storyteller's mouth! To steal a line from Star Wars: "That's no moon!"  and how apt!  It's really the deathstar! That's right, Lord Vader is on his way, and it's too late to try to pay the empire.....besides, who really wants some obsidian chips?  Our only hope lies in the fact that the rebel alliance and starfleet have stationed orbital platforms above our planet in an attempt to up hold the prime directive!   
_{nah, really, it's just where the imm's are hiding....think flying nimbus from DBZ}