Poll: is the Red's Retreat socially above the gemmed?

[jstorrie]

Traders has a half-elf serving drinks. They let tribals in. Gross.

[Pale Horse]

Traders has a half-elf serving drinks. They let tribals in. Gross.

I was going to point this out, as well.

[DustMight]

Is Red's Retreat socially above the gemmed?  You're talking about the tavern with the elf that sells stuff, right? 

[Thunkkin]

Is Red's Retreat socially above the gemmed?  You're talking about the tavern with the elf that sells stuff, right? 

It's not really an elf.  It's a human modeling the fake elf ears.

>.>

<.<

[Saellyn]

That dude looks -so- elvish, though! Must be a trick of the eyes. See necker ears, assume necker.

[Delstro]

Humans are damn near the only thing with round ears.

[Sinna]

Sure, I've had my share of mages go to Red's, but never, EVER to hang out downstairs in the bar. More like upstairs, out of general sight, for semi-private conversation.

This is an interesting idea.  What about Oashi mages?  Any different?

Edit to Add:

(This is off-thread I just realized)

Regarding the gemmed and bars - what if we look at it this way:  Why do characters (mages and not) hang out in bars?  To interact with other characters - moving them further and further away from the action makes it less and less interesting to play.  Playability is important so allowing them the freedom to move about the city from tavern to tavern is, I think, reasonable.

The immortals have never made any declarations on it, so it seems that mages are more then welcome in any tavern.  Otherwise it would be a simple matter to put a script in place to have a guard look for a gem and deny the mage.

I think it is fine the way it is now - though a little more fear and a little more hate (mixed together) is always nice.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Definitely different. They have house Oash backing them for one. Which means they're all human. But then above that, they're part of one of the most powerful entities in the city. They have more clout than the unaffiliated mage. They are more on a par with a normal commoner.

[spawnloser]

Taken from another thread:

You don't see gemmed in Red's Retreat. Because it's socially above them.

I cry bullshit.  You THINK it is above them.  The only gemmers it should be above are the gemmers that act like Bynners.  I'll point out that you are in the minority of people that would make such a blanket statement.  (14.5% minority to be exact.)

[Cutthroat]

Everyone can go in the Gaj. The Gaj is right next to the Elementalist's Quarter, making it the closest big indoors gathering spot for gemmed. It is near the gate which makes it a good first resting stop for travelers from faraway lands.

Everyone can go in Bard's Barrel. It is slightly nicer, and you don't have to step over vomit piles and passed-out people to get to the bar. You pay for that at the bar.

Everyone that can pass the bouncer can get into Trader's. If you can't pass the bouncer, go be an outcast somewhere else.

Everyone that can pass the bouncer can get into the Arboretum. If you can't pass the bouncer, go be a commoner somewhere else.

Sometimes social restrictions can be quite simple. In this case, we can just look at the basic NPCs, room descs and scripts we have to work with in the game world.

[Jingo]

I'm a bit leery of gemmed spending too much time with common folk in the open to begin with.

But other than that, no. At no point is it explicitly stated that The Red is anymore uncomfortable for gemmed than the Gaj or Trader's.

[RogueGunslinger]

Considering I never see gemmed in Reds. I'd say that most gemmers feel it's socially above them.

[spawnloser]

Considering I never see gemmed in Reds. I'd say that most gemmers feel it's socially above them.

This is something completely different, and I think you know it.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Considering I never see gemmed in Reds. I'd say that most gemmers feel it's socially above them.

This is kind of what I was referring to. Not to it being something written in the city laws or the bartender kicking them out. But something more like people generally feeling like they're above elves. Sure, it doesn't 'say' so, but people generally feel that way.

[Jingo]

This also assumes that gemmed operate on the same social spectrum as the rest of the city. Which doesn't really work imho. Like I said, gemmed should probably not be interacting with the population too much anyways. But otherwise, I really doubt that a gemmed sees things the same way as any other commoners.

But what really bothers me is that it assumes that The Red isn't already at the bottom of the heap to begin with. If someone IG tries to tell my pc one more time that elves aren't allowed in the Bard's Barrel....

[Sinna]

Red's is in the commoner's quarter, a block from a street full of shit, a half-block from a tenement, and masses of dirty, smelly people.

There are no guards outside.  If you have the coin and want to pay, seems you should feel free to go there. 
If someone bigger than you says leave, leave.

Shoulding all over without specific comments from Imms is fine for yourself - but for elves and mages that want to hang in Red's - I don't see a problem with it.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

In response to the original post - is the Red's Retreat socially above the gemmed?  Yes.  It is, and it was in times past.  I remember days back when you wouldn't see a gemmed stepping foot in the Bard's Barrel.  Not even one who had 'connections'.

This is wholly untrue, in my experience. Not only was it a common spot for Oashi's (being so close to FIND OUT IC), but since I started playing in 2004-5ish til when it was destroyed, it seemed like I saw more gemmers in there than in the Gaj. Lets not forget, it used to be DECORATED WITH SKULLS ALL OVER! Claaaaaaaaaaassy!

the Bard's Barrel was kind of the big hangout for people who had aspirations of niceness: noble and merchant house employees, low-ranking militia officers, etc...and, yes, a good number of gemmed mages (primarily Oashi?).  This is the closest thing Allanak has to a middle class: people with good incomes and minor connections, but not a lot of actual power.

This is kind of the way I see the Barrel / Reds. I don't see it as being a hang out for rinthi's, feral tribals, and elves. However, I definitely don't see it as excluding those types by any means unless:

people who can get offended and start to make trouble for you, though less than they imagine.

I say this because, really, anyone with enough power to make actual trouble for you, isn't going to bother doing so in the Reds. (At least, I wouldn't think so, but, ya know.)


In the end, the Reds is not the Barrel. The Reds has a nicer downstairs (no skulls on the walls!), but a sucky upstairs. (This really needs to be restored. I miss spice run.) Like many have said, it's not determined codedly, so it will be determined at the IC discretion of anyone who gives half a shit.

This week, it might be for Noble House Employees, and silk-wearers only. Next week, the elves, rinthies, and gemmers may drive the silkies back to the Gaj where they belong.

[Malken]

Man, a three pages thread just for a simple answer: No.

Next thread!

[Akaramu]

Considering I never see gemmed in Reds. I'd say that most gemmers feel it's socially above them.

This is something completely different, and I think you know it.

I agree with spawnloser there, I feel the reason isn't what you think it is. The Gaj is simply MUCH more populated with PCs... why would anyone sit in the Red's alone when there are 5 PC's in the other tavern?

[RogueGunslinger]

You're both missing my point. Reason is reason. Whatever rationality my pc gives is what he gives. The reality still is; gemmers aren't playing in the reds or the Gaj and treating it a sociably acceptable. If they were, they would be; but they are not. So how about we stop trying to quantify negatives and start realizing that hey: gemmers might be treating Reds Retreat as sociably acceptable(but I'm not sure). So if you want them to, start role-playing it.




Edit: I was clearly drunk when I posted this.

[Akaramu]

You must have missed my gemmed that hung out in both places quite a bunch over the years.  Thing is, gemmed really don't have a reason to solo idle in taverns for hours, they have other things to do. One reason why I enjoy playing them is that they don't have to tavern idle and desperately wait for people to RP with so they can do anything.

[spawnloser]

This also assumes that gemmed operate on the same social spectrum as the rest of the city. Which doesn't really work imho. Like I said, gemmed should probably not be interacting with the population too much anyways. But otherwise, I really doubt that a gemmed sees things the same way as any other commoners.

They ARE interacting on the same social spectrum in many ways.  That's what the gem means, that a gemmer is a commoner with all the rights due a commoner.  Sure, the lowest gemmer is beneath and lowest non-gemmer.  Sure, the grandest gemmer isn't as grand as the grandest non-gemmer.  Still, take an Oashi gemmer, and it is 100% fully acceptable socially for that gemmer to walk into Traders.  Gemmers can interact socially outside the Elementalists' Quarter all they want, to be perfectly honest.

The keyword in all that, though, was 'want' from that last sentence.  Something that Akaramu touched on without explaining.  Why would they want to?  My gemmers preferred to hang out at the Vivadu temple so that I could watch other gemmers coming in and out of the Quarter to interact with and socialize with them.  My gemmers always had things to do because they're all indies (when it comes down to it) unless they join Oash... and a half-elf or dwarf or (gods forbid) a city elf is going to have a hard time doing that.  I always have stuff to do when I'm playing a gemmer and no rules against leaving the city and blah blah blah.  Why hang out in the tavern with a bunch of feeble normals when I could be doing something awesome?

No tavern is socially above the gemmed as a whole.

Oh, and what the hell is with you people discussing the Bard's Barrel?  Play in Allanak.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

A) This thread is going nowhere, and will never get anywhere.

B) The absolute BEST answer that has or will come from this thread, once again, is: Find out IC.

By code or intention, the Reds is NOT above gemmers of any kind (even elves) until someone IC decides that it is, and makes it unwelcoming to these people.

If it was above the gemmed, our mean cruel staff would have programmed it that way, with a bouncer, or an unwelcoming bartender. (The code for these sorts is actually pretty detailed. I had a Bynner once that couldn't get into a certain place because he was too dirty. I had to spend 5 minutes cleaning, and eventually just remove some dirty EQ, and walk in without my fancy Nekrete boots. If it was absolutely unacceptable, it could easily have been programmed.) 
Or, in the very least, there would be a post in Staff Announcements called: "Attn Gemmers: Stay out of the Red's!" 

So, FIND OUT FUCKING IC, cause this is going nowhere.

(Alright, ignore me and continue to bicker now. I will pester you no longer.)