Poll: is the Red's Retreat socially above the gemmed?

[Salt Merchant]

It's been suggested that the Red's Retreat is socially above the gemmed. What do the players think?

[Gimfalisette]

It depends on the status of the gemmer, just like it would depend on the status of any commoner. If the gemmer is basically a grebber with few social connections and no connection to the templarate/nobility, then perhaps the Gaj is a more reasonable place for them to hang out. If the gemmer is well-known to have connections to the templarate or House Oash and is held in good regard by them, and able to afford decent clothing, then Red's makes complete sense.

Gemmed are just commoners, after all. They are not socially lower than other commoners, unless there is some reason they are lower--such as being from the 'rinth, being a breed or an elf, etc.

[Ghost]

Being a half burned wreckage as it is, I highly doubt it is above anything

[A Dry, Quiet War]

Being a half burned wreckage as it is, I highly doubt it is above anything

It was a melting pot even when it was "nice."  Mages, northerners, elves, northern elves.  Even bards.

[Gimfalisette]

I really would like to see more PCs using Red's. It's such a nice middle ground, where almost all of the PCs in the city can reasonably hang out.

[Cutthroat]

Depends on ... well, everything. Same could really be said for almost any person going to any tavern in any city anywhere, if you were asking if person X was too socially low to be going to Tavern Y.

I realize that's largely not answering the question but I don't think it is a question that has a yes or no answer.

[spawnloser]

I'm not going to comment too much on the Red's current state, but there is indeed a mix of good and crappy there.  It's a good middle ground, but since it got rebuilt, again, my experience is that it isn't used as much as it could/should.  I think people got in the habit of only using the Gaj or Trader's.

[A Dry, Quiet War]

It's a good middle ground, but since it got rebuilt, again, my experience is that it isn't used as much as it could/should.  I think people got in the habit of only using the Gaj or Trader's.

It's because of the incomplete renovation.  When I'm playing the sort of character who would favor the Red's over the Gaj, that bothers.

[Ghost]

Well, when it gets completed, unless it is going to take a turn and be something else as how it was before, it will still not be above anything.

Before, it was run by a northerner and had elves and halfies in it.  It could not be above anyone before, doubtful it can be above anyone now.  Unless the particular individual pissed off a templar/noble who kicked them out of the place indefinitely, they can hang out in the Red's without feeling it is above them in anyway.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Agreed, Spawnloser.

Back in the day the Bards Barrel (now the Red's Retreat for teh uber n00bz out there) was the bar you went to. The Gaj was this crappy dive bar for Bynners and rinthi's to get together in and fight. It used to be somewhat uncommon to see a GMH merchant, or a noble's aide in the Gaj. I can remember playing a Wyvern and having my Lieutenant specifically ban us from going to the Gaj because it was shitty, and we always got into fights there - ultimately embarrassing the House.

Being a half burned wreckage as it is, I highly doubt it is above anything

Unfortunately, this is the state of things now. Why they never rebuilt the upstairs is beyond me. I have a lot of fond memories in the Barrel, from my assassin who got his ass kicked by a unit of Bynners because they bet him hundreds of coins he couldn't hit 3 kings in a row (he did), numerous games of spice run, and of course fucking/getting subdue-released off the balcony. (Oof!) But yeah, since it was rebuilt, I haven't seen more than 3 PCs actively using the bar at any one time. Sad.

I really would like to see more PCs using Red's. It's such a nice middle ground, where almost all of the PCs in the city can reasonably hang out.

Agreed. And it's in a primo spot now, so when the snooty rich get sick of smelling the rest of us, they can just slink 3 screens over to the Azure Dragon.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'd like to see Reds be the starting location.

[A Dry, Quiet War]

Magickers are generally easily avoided, even in Allanak, if you aren't at the scumhole bar which they'd rightfully be at. Sure, I've had my share of mages go to Red's, but never, EVER to hang out downstairs in the bar. More like upstairs, out of general sight, for semi-private conversation.

With respect to Amanda, I strongly disagree.  Magickers are scum, but they're the wrong sort of scum for the Gaj.  If we had a middle class, they would be middle-class scum.

IRS agents are scum.  Bikers are scum.  IRS agents do not hang out at the biker bar.

[RogueGunslinger]

Err. I also believe that Red's is above common gemmers, yes. Anyone not working for the templarate or a GMH should probably stick to the Gaj or their quarter. And don't be surprised if people at even the Gaj acted scared of you, or surprised to see you.

[Pale Horse]

I've often thought that having a "gemmers only" bar in the gemmer quarter would be an excellent thought and idea and have seen it brought up a number of times both IG and on the GDB.

Unfortunately, pressure from both those sources (IG and OOC) have put a stop to it each time it's been attempted.  Even a casual meeting place IG for the general PC population of the Elementalists' Quarter was eventually broken up.  IC reasons behind it, but after so many times it does sort of make one think that there's something or someone out there that's determined to make being a gemmed as isolationist as possible..even within the part of the city where they're "teeming."

[a strange shadow]

I liked it when there were (essentially) only two bars in Allanak.

As for the original question, I don't think so, but as always, it depends on the gemmed in question.

(I hate the word 'gemmer'.)

[hyzhenhok]

I don't think there's a "class" distinction in terms of gemmers when it comes to the different bars. Gemmers in the Gaj make people uncomfortable, and might even make them leave. Gemmers in the Red's Retreat make people uncomfortable, and might even make them leave. Class has nothing to do with it.

I've always thought the tavern keepers should be scripted to make things uncomfortable for the gemmers, though. After all, they might be scaring off other customers. Jack up the prices for gemmers, make them sit at the shitty table in the corner and stay away from the bar, stuff like that. Gemmers should be allowed to hang out in taverns, but they shouldn't just be one of the many patrons sitting at the bar, having a good time. The other patrons shouldn't allow it, and the establishment owners shouldn't allow it.

[Gimfalisette]

I've always thought the tavern keepers should be scripted to make things uncomfortable for the gemmers, though. After all, they might be scaring off other customers. Jack up the prices for gemmers, make them sit at the shitty table in the corner and stay away from the bar, stuff like that. Gemmers should be allowed to hang out in taverns, but they shouldn't just be one of the many patrons sitting at the bar, having a good time. The other patrons shouldn't allow it, and the establishment owners shouldn't allow it.

Ugh. No. Seriously...no. It's already plenty "uncomfortable" enough for gemmed to be in public anywhere within Allanak. Having played a gemmer, having played around gemmers a lot over the last 3 years, there is no need for further reinforcement to the current environment. Gemmed is about the most socially-isolated role one can play within a city.

[WWYD]

I was typing up a post, but Gimf put it way better then I could have. It's seriously bad enough that some people are literally willing to deny you interaction (even the sort that involves shunning) because of what you wear on your throat location -- it doesn't need to get worse. The last time I played a gemmer, my only saving grace for interaction, inside Allanak, was the fact I was playing a Vivaduan, and most people passing through the elementalist's quarter would see me immediately and jump at the chance. To further exclude magickers on a coded level is kind of yuck.

[hyzhenhok]

I've always thought the tavern keepers should be scripted to make things uncomfortable for the gemmers, though. After all, they might be scaring off other customers. Jack up the prices for gemmers, make them sit at the shitty table in the corner and stay away from the bar, stuff like that. Gemmers should be allowed to hang out in taverns, but they shouldn't just be one of the many patrons sitting at the bar, having a good time. The other patrons shouldn't allow it, and the establishment owners shouldn't allow it.

Ugh. No. Seriously...no. It's already plenty "uncomfortable" enough for gemmed to be in public anywhere within Allanak. Having played a gemmer, having played around gemmers a lot over the last 3 years, there is no need for further reinforcement to the current environment. Gemmed is about the most socially-isolated role one can play within a city.

As they should be. Magickers are karma roles for a reason. I don't think we should accept that gemmers are more tolerated than they ICly should be just because Lonely McGemmer wants some interaction.

I was typing up a post, but Gimf put it way better then I could have. It's seriously bad enough that some people are literally willing to deny you interaction (even the sort that involves shunning) because of what you wear on your throat location -- it doesn't need to get worse. The last time I played a gemmer, my only saving grace for interaction, inside Allanak, was the fact I was playing a Vivaduan, and most people passing through the elementalist's quarter would see me immediately.

Playing a gemmed magicker is completely voluntary. If you don't like the stigma that comes with the role, don't play it.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't think there's a "class" distinction in terms of gemmers when it comes to the different bars. Gemmers in the Gaj make people uncomfortable, and might even make them leave. Gemmers in the Red's Retreat make people uncomfortable, and might even make them leave. Class has nothing to do with it.

I've always thought the tavern keepers should be scripted to make things uncomfortable for the gemmers, though. After all, they might be scaring off other customers. Jack up the prices for gemmers, make them sit at the shitty table in the corner and stay away from the bar, stuff like that. Gemmers should be allowed to hang out in taverns, but they shouldn't just be one of the many patrons sitting at the bar, having a good time. The other patrons shouldn't allow it, and the establishment owners shouldn't allow it.

I love this idea. The idea of code supporting the documentation in general is always good. I don't think any of the suggested ideas would make things more isolated for gemmers. It'd just add more flavor when playing them.

/opinion

[Gimfalisette]

Gemmed is about the most socially-isolated role one can play within a city.

As they should be. Magickers are karma roles for a reason.

Completely faulty logic. Magickers are not karma roles because of the social isolation. Magickers are karma roles because they are codedly powerful. The fact that gemmed are automatically so socially-isolated is a large part of the reason why players would prefer to play hidden or rogue mages.

Playing a gemmed magicker is completely voluntary. If you don't like the stigma that comes with the role, don't play it.

Unhelpful, and uncognizant of the true systems problems which lead to the unpalatability of the gemmed role.

[Marc]

Gemmed is about the most socially-isolated role one can play within a city.

As they should be. Magickers are karma roles for a reason.

Completely faulty logic. Magickers are not karma roles because of the social isolation. Magickers are karma roles because they are codedly powerful.

I can't say I agree Gimf.  Magickers are karma roles both because they are codedly powerful AND because they have the social restrictions.  If you are playing a known magicker and being buddy buddy with everyone, you're doing it wrong (IMHO).  It might be IC for you to kiss ass with everyone so you get shunned less, but it's the players responsibility to help maintain a certain level of fear and distrust with magick. 

That's where, IMHO, the karma comes in.  Trust enough not to drop thermal nukes on a tavern for the lols and trust enough to maintain a realistic representation and help reinforce 'DOCUMENTED' stereotypes.

P.S. This is not to say gickers all need to play stereotypes, not at all.  But it is the players responsibility to play their magicker based on a world reacting to those stereotypes.

[Cutthroat]

I don't think restricting gemmers codedly makes sense. If a patron in a tavern feels uncomfortable, they'll learn to suck it up and deal with it if they don't have any position in society. An elf, a mutant or a 'rinther could make people uncomfortable too but would it really make sense to start kicking them out?

I say this because if a tavern doesn't have a bouncer or a guard, it's safe to assume that are all are welcomed (by the establishment owner) - and their money, too. As a gemmer, whether the unique company you find within the tavern reacts properly to your gem is entirely up to them, and up to various things you identify with other than being a gemmer.

[Gimfalisette]

If you are playing a known magicker and being buddy buddy with everyone, you're doing it wrong (IMHO).  It might be IC for you to kiss ass with everyone so you get shunned less, but it's the players responsibility to help maintain a certain level of fear and distrust with magick.

Please do not twist what I have said to make it sound like I am advocating for magickers "being buddy buddy with everyone." That is not what I said, and it is not what I would say. In fact, there are potential options along the roleplay continuum other than "complete social outcast" or "everyone's favorite fuckbuddy."

Currently, however, the game environment does not lend itself to those other options being played by gemmed. I would like to see more subtlety and less stupidity in interplay between mundanes and magickers, and that is the responsibility of each player, regardless of their PC's guild.

[jcarter]

The Retreat comes across as the kind of place that would be acceptable for the middle-range of people. Independent commoners that are well off for themselves, employees of merchant houses, definitely employees of noble houses, and so on. Your scum of the street 'Rinthi probably wouldn't be messing around in there, as the area itself seems to be under more Militia/templarate scrutiny. I don't think it would be necessarily a place where nobility would be lounging around, but there's plenty of valid reasons they could have to sit there for a bit, such as needing to keep an eye out for someone to hire and so forth.

Do gemmers belong? It depends on if they fit into one of the categories above. If it's a well-mannered one, then probably. If it's one that's constantly threatening to curse everyone and their family, then no.

I can't say I agree Gimf.  Magickers are karma roles both because they are codedly powerful AND because they have the social restrictions.  If you are playing a known magicker and being buddy buddy with everyone, you're doing it wrong (IMHO).  It might be IC for you to kiss ass with everyone so you get shunned less, but it's the players responsibility to help maintain a certain level of fear and distrust with magick.

That's where, IMHO, the karma comes in.  Trust enough not to drop thermal nukes on a tavern for the lols and trust enough to maintain a realistic representation and help reinforce 'DOCUMENTED' stereotypes.

P.S. This is not to say gickers all need to play stereotypes, not at all.  But it is the players responsibility to play their magicker based on a world reacting to those stereotypes.

I agree with some parts and disagree with some parts. I think this would be better off being discussed in a separate thread though, or one that's existing now.

[Marc]

My major point is the karma restriction is not JUST coded power.  You are trusted to set the world mood by including a negative reaction from the npc/vnpc world.  You, as the gemmed/known gicker, must include these negative responses to set an example for the rest of the player population to follow.  If you, the Player, never emote people glaring/leering/spitting/shouting at your gemmed/known gicker then, IMHO, you are doing it wrong.  That is where the trust comes in. 

It is on you, not the other PC's, to set the mood.  Why?  Because you chose to bring the magickal element into the RP equation.  That is not to say other PC's wont help.  You will have players who have played similar roles and (hopefully) will add to the environment.  But you cannot expect mundanes to step up.  Why?  Because they might not know HOW to react.  They could be newbs to Armageddon and react in a totally inconsistent way to the documentation.  Is reacting against documentation wrong?  No, but you as the player of a gemmed/known magicker must counter act any exceptional reaction with one more along the documentations line.  This is to maintain the feel of the world, your responsibility with karma.

This all ties into the OP.  There is no definitive answer for the Red's, the Trader's.  Practically anywhere in Allanak.  Social rank and class determines everything and there are too many variables in that equation to have it black and white.  But if you do go there, you need to RP the appropriate reaction.  Let's just not assume that reaction is cutndry.

[Gimfalisette]

My major point is the karma restriction is not JUST coded power.  You are trusted to set the world mood by including a negative reaction from the npc/vnpc world.  You, as the gemmed/known gicker, must include these negative responses to set an example for the rest of the player population to follow.  If you, the Player, never emote people glaring/leering/spitting/shouting at your gemmed/known gicker then, IMHO, you are doing it wrong.  That is where the trust comes in. 

It is on you, not the other PC's, to set the mood.  Why?  Because you chose to bring the magickal element into the RP equation.  That is not to say other PC's wont help.  You will have players who have played similar roles and (hopefully) will add to the environment.  But you cannot expect mundanes to step up.  Why?  Because they might not know HOW to react.  They could be newbs to Armageddon and react in a totally inconsistent way to the documentation.  Is reacting against documentation wrong?  No, but you as the player of a gemmed/known magicker must counter act any exceptional reaction with one more along the documentations line.  This is to maintain the feel of the world, your responsibility with karma.

This all ties into the OP.  There is no definitive answer for the Red's, the Trader's.  Practically anywhere in Allanak.  Social rank and class determines everything and there are too many variables in that equation to have it black and white.  But if you do go there, you need to RP the appropriate reaction.  Let's just not assume that reaction is cutndry.

I just can't agree. I am not, myself, particularly good at environmental emotes, nor do I really enjoy doing them. However, I have earned some karma for my play, almost none of which has included doing environmental/VNPC emotes, but much of which has included the responsible wielding of power. I do not have some gimongous "responsibility" to emote the rest of the city reacting to me, whether I'm playing a gemmer, a bard, a noble, a soldier, or whatever. Sometimes I do it when I feel like it, but environmental emotes are not the be-all-end-all of responsible roleplay.

It's not my job to mood up the scene for you, because that's not what my job is in ARM, period. My job in ARM, personally, is to be a leader, to make things happen, to set creative plots into motion, and to make interesting scenes by interacting with other PCs in interesting ways. However, it might be your job to mood up the scene, if that is what you are good at. You probably have talents I don't, and don't have talents I do, so by all means--do your job. I'll do mine.

There's just no one-size-fits-all for responsible karma-PC roleplay.

When I'm playing a gemmer and I go to a tavern, I don't go there for the purpose of adding oooOOOOooooo to your PC's life, for the most part. And I never will, because that is just not what I do.

[RogueGunslinger]

Huh. That's the only reason I go into taverns.

I agree though, people play differently.

[Attana]

As was suggested, please take this entirely different argument to another thread.  People have veered completely off topic.

In response to the original post - is the Red's Retreat socially above the gemmed?  Yes.  It is, and it was in times past.  I remember days back when you wouldn't see a gemmed stepping foot in the Bard's Barrel.  Not even one who had 'connections'.  The Gaj is the common drinking ground for riff-raff, gemmed, thugs and Bynners alike.  Just because your gemmer has connections or is in Oash, should really mean little when it comes to being more socially accepted than anyone else.  Why?  Because they're still a gemmer.  Would they be more accepted among -other- gemmers?  Possibly.  But the common populace as a hole?  No.

The Red's Retreat/Bard's Barrel is/was a step up from the Gaj.  Rinthi's and gemmers would most likely not be spotted in this environment.  IMHO.  As nobles are sometimes spotted there, if they were seeking to 'slum', those two bottom ranked on the Allanaki social scale (which gemmers aren't even listed on) would more than likely want to avoid it.

In times past, gemmers were often humiliated and sometimes beat in public for going into the Bard's while nobility or the Templarate were present there, along with tribal humans and rinthi's.  I have seen it, years ago.  I'd like to see more of it, actually.

[Marc]

Don't need to take it so far.  While I personally think it's cool when someone can really bring a room alive through creative emotes it's not within all of our creative powers.  Cool beans.  But you CAN still rp the world reacting to your character.  Add a sneer to the bartender when he hands you a drink.  If you don't want to include any npcs or vnpcs, just rp your character reacting to general distrust, stares, fear, glares etc.

The fact remains that you have to consider the environment with your RP.

It's not my job to mood up the scene for you, because that's not what my job is in ARM, period. My job in ARM, personally, is to be a leader, to make things happen, to set creative plots into motion, and to make interesting scenes by interacting with other PCs in interesting ways.

Your three examples of what YOU do all set the mood.  This might be nitpicking semantics, but by creating and roleplaying a believable character, you set the mood.  You can create a bearded dwarf who role plays summoning familiars and wears a wizard hat (possible!  or am I the only one who has seen the occasional hairy dwarf slip through chargen?), involve lots of people in wide-reaching plots, have a dynamic personality and be well liked.  That character, no matter how much people like him/her, would be wrong.  It does not fit with the game world.  

This is an over the top example but lines can be drawn to any character who ignores documentation in favor of being the exception.  We don't allow elves that ride.  We require dwarves to have a focus.  We enforce a muls (and much lesser extent, half-elves) internal struggle.  Why shouldn't we require that magickers respect and acknowledge overwhelming public opinion of them and role-play according?

You don't need flowery emotes to have a bartender refuse to serve you.  You don't need a masters in english to suggest that one of many many many npcs looked at you weird, crossed the street when they saw you coming or anything similar.

To draw on another post about engaging newbies THIS IS A MAGICKERS RESPONSIBILITY!  That newb is not going to know to spit on you.  RP that you're getting hassled!  Use it as a chance to educate a player about the role magickers fill in Armageddon.  These are not Gandolfs!

Then just take it one step further:  Do it with everyone, not just newbs.  Not everyone can keep emotes up constantly, but do what YOU can to reinforce the documentation.  To bring the hate, fear and distrust into the every day.  If you don't think that's your responsibility, mundanes might be a better route.

to the OP:  If your character would be accepted in the Red's, role play the reaction as YOU see it.  If they wouldn't, RP a believable reaction.  The heart of whether gemmed would or should be allowed is on whether it's the gemmed responsibility to segregate themselves or on other pc's to force them out.  Individual exceptions are just that, exceptions.

[Synthesis]

Basing your argument on how things were or weren't in the past is generally not a good idea, because things have been quite different at many different times in the past.

I think the Red's Retreat should be THE gemmer hangout, especially since it's right across the street from FIND OUT IC.

[Gimfalisette]

But you CAN still rp the world reacting to your character.  Add a sneer to the bartender when he hands you a drink.  If you don't want to include any npcs or vnpcs, just rp your character reacting to general distrust, stares, fear, glares etc.

The fact remains that you have to consider the environment with your RP.

I'm not interested in doing that, and I'm not going to do it. "Considering" the environment does not mean that I must roleplay what the environment does to me. It means only that I need to roleplay my reaction to and presence within the environment correctly.

But feel free to do it, as you are probably good at it, and probably enjoy doing it.

[Kryos]

I agree pretty much exactly with Gimf's first post here.  Red's is for the middle class commoners to the upper class commoners.  Byn runners, unconnected gemmers, and indeps with few friends or a crude attitude belong in the Gaj.  It should be common to seeing the seasoned Troopers, connected gemmed, gmh employees, and the like over at Reds. 

[Pale Horse]

We all have our own opinions and seeing just how they're argued is great, but you know what would be even better?  Seeing it all in the game!  In there you can get all the social back-biting, hating, cross-actions and byplay of your characters' expressing themselves!

On topic, is the Red's Retreat socially above the gemmed?  Yes and No.  Very much so.

This IG year it might very well be socially above the gemmed.  Hanging out there would be bad for their health, connections, employment and all that.  Next month, or with a power shift in the city as such and such noble is replaced in rank by noble lord whoshisface or Templar of the Red Big Shot has been seen occasionally having pleasant conversations with some of the infrequent magickesr there, the Red may totally be the exact place for the gemmed to congregate.  Some soldier could think it might even be a great way to earn a promotion by swallowing a good chunk of their obvious resentment, fear and disgust towards a finger-wiggler and start to show enough tolerance towards one to show to their superiors that they can keep a level head above what those of their peers.  Then next month when the social power shifts again, it's time to run them hard to save face and show where your true allegiance is.

So, yes, the Red is socially above the gemmed..unless it's not.

[Marc]

There is another topic now.  Moved!

[A Dry, Quiet War]

I'll agree that the Retreat is probably not the best place to be both offensive and unsponsored.

Back, oh, circa 2007, the Bard's Barrel was kind of the big hangout for people who had aspirations of niceness: noble and merchant house employees, low-ranking militia officers, etc...and, yes, a good number of gemmed mages (primarily Oashi?).  This is the closest thing Allanak has to a middle class: people with good incomes and minor connections, but not a lot of actual power.  These are people who can get offended and start to make trouble for you, though less than they imagine.

So, true, if you're a member of an Inherently Offensive Minority (necks, gickers, half-ears), maybe you'd best be looking about for a sponsor before you go to meddling around nice folk.

But everybody else should keep in mind that magickers usually aren't poor and can be very, very useful to very, very important people.  Jane Unclanned Wiggler may be Great Lord Amos Nenyuk's favorite petbomination and bangmaker.

[Gimfalisette]

a good number of gemmed mages (primarily Oashi?)

Oash actually was not an open clan at the time. But yes, there were other gemmed mages that hung out at the Barrel, mostly CAM-affiliated.

[Spice Spice Baby]

Basing your argument on how things were or weren't in the past is generally not a good idea, because things have been quite different at many different times in the past.

This sums my feelings up nicely.

[Jenred]

Is it utterly impossible for people to leave derails out of a thread? - Seriously, just take it to private messages. It is unclassy, makes the players look like a bunch of ninnies, and doesn't advance the discussion any further. The fact that I have to read through 2 pages of garbage to read a few responses to the initial question is bullshit.


That being said - The Red's Retreat is -not- too classy for Gemmers. The place has been a Gemmers hangout for at least 5 years. It is filled with all kinds of personnel. Gemmers, elves, northerners, Gypsies at some points in the past, etc, etc. An elf even worked as a shop-keeper there.

What players choose to do in game is up to them. But the virtual world does not care if a gemmed magicker goes into the Barrel/Retreat/whatever. I've had magickers recruited there, and they did not seem to care that I was there prior to being an employee of their's.

Some characters, during different times have made life very uncomfortable in the city for gemmers, other times it was easy. I've had interactions as a gemmer with the bartender, animated by an IMM. There was no expressed unwelcome.

I spend money, they serve me. I am a citizen of Allanak that happens to be cursed with abilities that thousands of people, over the past several hundred years have also had. We are monitored and controlled, like slaves, with gems. Slaves money is good there. Elves money is good there.

So for the original question: no, the place is not "too classy" for Gemmers, of any kind. Even elvish-rinth gemmers.

But like all activities, ensure your character has IC justification for THEIR actions. Just because the place is not too classy for your character to be there, doesn't mean you have reason to be there. If you are an Elvish Rinth Magicker... why do you want to be in there? Is it OOC driven or IC driven? (i.e. Looking for PC interaction, or accomplishing something IC?)

[Jdr]

In every city in the world there's a dive where the cops hang out. The Red's Retreat is the cop dive in my mind.

Militia go there because it's the place where historical things happened for them, it's right there on the walls depicting what happened. It's even NAMED after Red Robes resting up in there, so it's by every means a place for the most VAUNTED of Allanaki Nobility to slum there if they so desire it (and it would be completely acceptable, too). I imagine I'd see Militia hoping to avoid the Templars who dominate and frequent the tavern in the Templar's Quarters, House Guards and even signed mercenaries to GMHs who are a little more clean-nosed than the types you'd normally get in the profession.

And of course those few who are the artists, mummers and bards of Allanak would ply their trade there the most.

In short, it's basically as close to the Sanctuary as Allanak has. If the Gemmed go in there they would be completely aware that their presence may offend the whims of a particularly moody Noble and they'll suffer the ramifications. That being said, the same could be said for ANY citizen. Heck, a particularly irate Red Robe might decide to toss out a junior Noble he or she might dislike.

[Synthesis]

In every city in the world there's a dive where the cops hang out. The Red's Retreat is the cop dive in my mind.

Is the Red's Retreat a dive or a snazzy place? You seem to have conflicting opinions about the quality of the establishment.  Also, the Gaj is Allanak's sportsbar, and if there's one thing cops unanimously enjoy, it's sports.  (Bloodsports!)

Militia go there because it's the place where historical things happened for them, it's right there on the walls depicting what happened.

Plenty of historic things have happened at the Gaj, too.  Even more historic and awesome, if you ask me.

It's even NAMED after Red Robes resting up in there, so it's by every means a place for the most VAUNTED of Allanaki Nobility to slum there if they so desire it (and it would be completely acceptable, too). I imagine I'd see Militia hoping to avoid the Templars who dominate and frequent the tavern in the Templar's Quarters, House Guards and even signed mercenaries to GMHs who are a little more clean-nosed than the types you'd normally get in the profession.

It has its name, I believe, because a certain red-robed templar was instrumental in saving it from complete destruction and/or had a large stake in its reconstruction.  It doesn't have anything to do with red-robes in general, or even templars in general.

In short, it's basically as close to the Sanctuary as Allanak has. If the Gemmed go in there they would be completely aware that their presence may offend the whims of a particularly moody Noble and they'll suffer the ramifications. That being said, the same could be said for ANY citizen. Heck, a particularly irate Red Robe might decide to toss out a junior Noble he or she might dislike.

No, the Trader's Inn is the closest thing Allanak has to the Sanctuary.  All the nice people should hang out there.

[Shalooonsh]

This discussion needs to stay on topic.

[spawnloser]

The gem doesn't define you social standing.  Just like any other commoner, as others have said, it depends on the gemmer.

[Spoon]

Also, OOC opinion doesn't really govern what happens in game unless you do something about it. Social standing should be entirely IC with IC consequences. It's also dynamic rather than set in stone. One week the gemmers might be hanging around the Gaj, the next week a bunch of mercenaries might take over and start to hassel them... the next week a militia unit might start hanging out there causing people who want to avoid them to move on. If you PC doesn't like the bar's population they can do something about it or move on.

[Twilight]

Social caste is a northern thing.

In the South, its about who you know and how useful you are to them.  Sure, there is some progressive changes as time has gone on changing how things "should" be.  Which makes historical examples...interesting.

The first Oashi mage I knew exclusively used Traders as far as I ever saw, and had his own house provided by Oash.

However, what hasn't changed is that templars have a very real impact on what is "appropriate" for the gemmers of their time.  If a templar has decided that it is appropriate for Gerry Gemmer to hang out in Traders for his own devious ends, it is appropriate.  Until such time as he dies or decides it is no longer appropriate or some other templar comes along to screw with his carefully laid plans.

[AmandaGreathouse]

IMO, currently: You're much more likely to see middle-management types, aides, and house hunters in Red's than the Gaj currently (or recently). And because of the general status of a mage as a second class citizen, I personally feel that it does kind of put it above them. Though I grant there are of course exceptions (Oash mages and those working for the templarate), I think in a general way, they should at the very least be FAR more shunned in Red's, if not outright thrown out. After all, upper-middle class House Merchant Trainee Talia doesn't feel like associating with scum (The Gaj) and she knows better than to overstep her own rank (pissing around the trader's casually), so she goes to the middle class bar. I personally really like the division it offers as well. You want to idle in a tavern and talk to your other middle-class homies without gemmed scum underfoot, go to Red's. Or slum it at the Gaj much like nobles and templars would be slumming it at Red's.

*shrug* Just my two sids.

[Gimfalisette]

upper-middle class House Merchant Trainee Talia doesn't feel like associating with scum (The Gaj) and she knows better than to overstep her own rank (pissing around the trader's casually), so she goes to the middle class bar.

There's no reason Talia can't hang out at Trader's, actually. In fact, business-wise, she should be hanging out at Trader's so that she can get comfortable and familiar with the active PC nobles / templars / aides, be ready to take messages or relay orders for her boss, polish her social skills, and so on. The name of the tavern is "Trader's Inn," which pretty much openly states that it's for the merchant class.

If nobles/templars want to hang out somewhere else that's public but not available to the merchantly riff-raff, they can head for the Arboretum. Trader's, however, is not a private nobility enclave, nor should anyone act like it is.

[AmandaGreathouse]

upper-middle class House Merchant Trainee Talia doesn't feel like associating with scum (The Gaj) and she knows better than to overstep her own rank (pissing around the trader's casually), so she goes to the middle class bar.

There's no reason Talia can't hang out at Trader's, actually. In fact, business-wise, she should be hanging out at Trader's so that she can get comfortable and familiar with the active PC nobles / templars / aides, be ready to take messages or relay orders for her boss, polish her social skills, and so on. The name of the tavern is "Trader's Inn," which pretty much openly states that it's for the merchant class.

If nobles/templars want to hang out somewhere else that's public but not available to the merchantly riff-raff, they can head for the Arboretum. Trader's, however, is not a private nobility enclave, nor should anyone act like it is.

I didn't mean to imply that it was exclusively for nobles/templars, though it does reflect a higher class (by far) of patronage than the Gaj, and higher (by some) than Red's. Not only in the NPC's representing its population, but in the menu, echoes, and pricing, not to mention decor.

[musashi]

Honestly ... I'm so very tired of the "should the gemmers/rinthis/breeds/aides/hunters/nobles/templars/merchants/squirrels/badgers/snakes be going to <insert whatever bar is the flavor of the week here>" threads that keep popping up every so often.

Near as I can tell every area in the game that is supposed to be restricted to a certain social class/guild/race ... is, and it's coded.

My two 'sids: Next time someone feels the urge to make a post like this, why not go to the request tool and select the "Question" feature. Then one can ask the staff directly, discreetly, about whether or not person x should really be going into area y, before they make a post that, in the best of circumstances, is just going to make another player feel chastised.

Because I mean really ... it doesn't take much of a leap in logic to figure out that a gemmed PC must have walked into Red's Retreat while the OP's PC was in there. It comes off to me as more or less being an OOC attack against someone tossed up on the forums. About the same as if someone got mindbended and hopped on the GDB to start up a "psions are too powerful" thread.

[Cavaticus]

The doorman at the Trader's already keeps out those who shouldn't really be there.

I'll put it like this: The Trader's Inn is -just barely- nice enough that junior nobles and blue-robed templars don't have to feel completely embarrassed to be there. They probably don't want to be there. They probably want to be in their estate or in the various other areas that are off-limits to 'regular' folk. But they can't. They have to be visible and that means rubbing shoulders with the filthy, disease-ridden trash that populate Allanak. And if they're going to do that, they may as well do it somewhere with a clean floor.

But if you're the type of citizen who thinks the Trader's Inn is totally sweet and posh and upper-crusty, you're probably not a noble or templar.

[jstorrie]

Traders has a half-elf serving drinks. They let tribals in. Gross.

[Pale Horse]

Traders has a half-elf serving drinks. They let tribals in. Gross.

I was going to point this out, as well.

[DustMight]

Is Red's Retreat socially above the gemmed?  You're talking about the tavern with the elf that sells stuff, right? 

[Thunkkin]

Is Red's Retreat socially above the gemmed?  You're talking about the tavern with the elf that sells stuff, right? 

It's not really an elf.  It's a human modeling the fake elf ears.

>.>

<.<

[Saellyn]

That dude looks -so- elvish, though! Must be a trick of the eyes. See necker ears, assume necker.

[Delstro]

Humans are damn near the only thing with round ears.

[Sinna]

Sure, I've had my share of mages go to Red's, but never, EVER to hang out downstairs in the bar. More like upstairs, out of general sight, for semi-private conversation.

This is an interesting idea.  What about Oashi mages?  Any different?

Edit to Add:

(This is off-thread I just realized)

Regarding the gemmed and bars - what if we look at it this way:  Why do characters (mages and not) hang out in bars?  To interact with other characters - moving them further and further away from the action makes it less and less interesting to play.  Playability is important so allowing them the freedom to move about the city from tavern to tavern is, I think, reasonable.

The immortals have never made any declarations on it, so it seems that mages are more then welcome in any tavern.  Otherwise it would be a simple matter to put a script in place to have a guard look for a gem and deny the mage.

I think it is fine the way it is now - though a little more fear and a little more hate (mixed together) is always nice.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Definitely different. They have house Oash backing them for one. Which means they're all human. But then above that, they're part of one of the most powerful entities in the city. They have more clout than the unaffiliated mage. They are more on a par with a normal commoner.

[spawnloser]

Taken from another thread:

You don't see gemmed in Red's Retreat. Because it's socially above them.

I cry bullshit.  You THINK it is above them.  The only gemmers it should be above are the gemmers that act like Bynners.  I'll point out that you are in the minority of people that would make such a blanket statement.  (14.5% minority to be exact.)

[Cutthroat]

Everyone can go in the Gaj. The Gaj is right next to the Elementalist's Quarter, making it the closest big indoors gathering spot for gemmed. It is near the gate which makes it a good first resting stop for travelers from faraway lands.

Everyone can go in Bard's Barrel. It is slightly nicer, and you don't have to step over vomit piles and passed-out people to get to the bar. You pay for that at the bar.

Everyone that can pass the bouncer can get into Trader's. If you can't pass the bouncer, go be an outcast somewhere else.

Everyone that can pass the bouncer can get into the Arboretum. If you can't pass the bouncer, go be a commoner somewhere else.

Sometimes social restrictions can be quite simple. In this case, we can just look at the basic NPCs, room descs and scripts we have to work with in the game world.

[Jingo]

I'm a bit leery of gemmed spending too much time with common folk in the open to begin with.

But other than that, no. At no point is it explicitly stated that The Red is anymore uncomfortable for gemmed than the Gaj or Trader's.

[RogueGunslinger]

Considering I never see gemmed in Reds. I'd say that most gemmers feel it's socially above them.

[spawnloser]

Considering I never see gemmed in Reds. I'd say that most gemmers feel it's socially above them.

This is something completely different, and I think you know it.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Considering I never see gemmed in Reds. I'd say that most gemmers feel it's socially above them.

This is kind of what I was referring to. Not to it being something written in the city laws or the bartender kicking them out. But something more like people generally feeling like they're above elves. Sure, it doesn't 'say' so, but people generally feel that way.

[Jingo]

This also assumes that gemmed operate on the same social spectrum as the rest of the city. Which doesn't really work imho. Like I said, gemmed should probably not be interacting with the population too much anyways. But otherwise, I really doubt that a gemmed sees things the same way as any other commoners.

But what really bothers me is that it assumes that The Red isn't already at the bottom of the heap to begin with. If someone IG tries to tell my pc one more time that elves aren't allowed in the Bard's Barrel....

[Sinna]

Red's is in the commoner's quarter, a block from a street full of shit, a half-block from a tenement, and masses of dirty, smelly people.

There are no guards outside.  If you have the coin and want to pay, seems you should feel free to go there. 
If someone bigger than you says leave, leave.

Shoulding all over without specific comments from Imms is fine for yourself - but for elves and mages that want to hang in Red's - I don't see a problem with it.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

In response to the original post - is the Red's Retreat socially above the gemmed?  Yes.  It is, and it was in times past.  I remember days back when you wouldn't see a gemmed stepping foot in the Bard's Barrel.  Not even one who had 'connections'.

This is wholly untrue, in my experience. Not only was it a common spot for Oashi's (being so close to FIND OUT IC), but since I started playing in 2004-5ish til when it was destroyed, it seemed like I saw more gemmers in there than in the Gaj. Lets not forget, it used to be DECORATED WITH SKULLS ALL OVER! Claaaaaaaaaaassy!

the Bard's Barrel was kind of the big hangout for people who had aspirations of niceness: noble and merchant house employees, low-ranking militia officers, etc...and, yes, a good number of gemmed mages (primarily Oashi?).  This is the closest thing Allanak has to a middle class: people with good incomes and minor connections, but not a lot of actual power.

This is kind of the way I see the Barrel / Reds. I don't see it as being a hang out for rinthi's, feral tribals, and elves. However, I definitely don't see it as excluding those types by any means unless:

people who can get offended and start to make trouble for you, though less than they imagine.

I say this because, really, anyone with enough power to make actual trouble for you, isn't going to bother doing so in the Reds. (At least, I wouldn't think so, but, ya know.)


In the end, the Reds is not the Barrel. The Reds has a nicer downstairs (no skulls on the walls!), but a sucky upstairs. (This really needs to be restored. I miss spice run.) Like many have said, it's not determined codedly, so it will be determined at the IC discretion of anyone who gives half a shit.

This week, it might be for Noble House Employees, and silk-wearers only. Next week, the elves, rinthies, and gemmers may drive the silkies back to the Gaj where they belong.

[Malken]

Man, a three pages thread just for a simple answer: No.

Next thread!

[Akaramu]

Considering I never see gemmed in Reds. I'd say that most gemmers feel it's socially above them.

This is something completely different, and I think you know it.

I agree with spawnloser there, I feel the reason isn't what you think it is. The Gaj is simply MUCH more populated with PCs... why would anyone sit in the Red's alone when there are 5 PC's in the other tavern?

[RogueGunslinger]

You're both missing my point. Reason is reason. Whatever rationality my pc gives is what he gives. The reality still is; gemmers aren't playing in the reds or the Gaj and treating it a sociably acceptable. If they were, they would be; but they are not. So how about we stop trying to quantify negatives and start realizing that hey: gemmers might be treating Reds Retreat as sociably acceptable(but I'm not sure). So if you want them to, start role-playing it.




Edit: I was clearly drunk when I posted this.

[Akaramu]

You must have missed my gemmed that hung out in both places quite a bunch over the years.  Thing is, gemmed really don't have a reason to solo idle in taverns for hours, they have other things to do. One reason why I enjoy playing them is that they don't have to tavern idle and desperately wait for people to RP with so they can do anything.

[spawnloser]

This also assumes that gemmed operate on the same social spectrum as the rest of the city. Which doesn't really work imho. Like I said, gemmed should probably not be interacting with the population too much anyways. But otherwise, I really doubt that a gemmed sees things the same way as any other commoners.

They ARE interacting on the same social spectrum in many ways.  That's what the gem means, that a gemmer is a commoner with all the rights due a commoner.  Sure, the lowest gemmer is beneath and lowest non-gemmer.  Sure, the grandest gemmer isn't as grand as the grandest non-gemmer.  Still, take an Oashi gemmer, and it is 100% fully acceptable socially for that gemmer to walk into Traders.  Gemmers can interact socially outside the Elementalists' Quarter all they want, to be perfectly honest.

The keyword in all that, though, was 'want' from that last sentence.  Something that Akaramu touched on without explaining.  Why would they want to?  My gemmers preferred to hang out at the Vivadu temple so that I could watch other gemmers coming in and out of the Quarter to interact with and socialize with them.  My gemmers always had things to do because they're all indies (when it comes down to it) unless they join Oash... and a half-elf or dwarf or (gods forbid) a city elf is going to have a hard time doing that.  I always have stuff to do when I'm playing a gemmer and no rules against leaving the city and blah blah blah.  Why hang out in the tavern with a bunch of feeble normals when I could be doing something awesome?

No tavern is socially above the gemmed as a whole.

Oh, and what the hell is with you people discussing the Bard's Barrel?  Play in Allanak.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

A) This thread is going nowhere, and will never get anywhere.

B) The absolute BEST answer that has or will come from this thread, once again, is: Find out IC.

By code or intention, the Reds is NOT above gemmers of any kind (even elves) until someone IC decides that it is, and makes it unwelcoming to these people.

If it was above the gemmed, our mean cruel staff would have programmed it that way, with a bouncer, or an unwelcoming bartender. (The code for these sorts is actually pretty detailed. I had a Bynner once that couldn't get into a certain place because he was too dirty. I had to spend 5 minutes cleaning, and eventually just remove some dirty EQ, and walk in without my fancy Nekrete boots. If it was absolutely unacceptable, it could easily have been programmed.) 
Or, in the very least, there would be a post in Staff Announcements called: "Attn Gemmers: Stay out of the Red's!" 

So, FIND OUT FUCKING IC, cause this is going nowhere.

(Alright, ignore me and continue to bicker now. I will pester you no longer.)