Poll: is the Red's Retreat socially above the gemmed?

[Marc]

My major point is the karma restriction is not JUST coded power.  You are trusted to set the world mood by including a negative reaction from the npc/vnpc world.  You, as the gemmed/known gicker, must include these negative responses to set an example for the rest of the player population to follow.  If you, the Player, never emote people glaring/leering/spitting/shouting at your gemmed/known gicker then, IMHO, you are doing it wrong.  That is where the trust comes in. 

It is on you, not the other PC's, to set the mood.  Why?  Because you chose to bring the magickal element into the RP equation.  That is not to say other PC's wont help.  You will have players who have played similar roles and (hopefully) will add to the environment.  But you cannot expect mundanes to step up.  Why?  Because they might not know HOW to react.  They could be newbs to Armageddon and react in a totally inconsistent way to the documentation.  Is reacting against documentation wrong?  No, but you as the player of a gemmed/known magicker must counter act any exceptional reaction with one more along the documentations line.  This is to maintain the feel of the world, your responsibility with karma.

This all ties into the OP.  There is no definitive answer for the Red's, the Trader's.  Practically anywhere in Allanak.  Social rank and class determines everything and there are too many variables in that equation to have it black and white.  But if you do go there, you need to RP the appropriate reaction.  Let's just not assume that reaction is cutndry.

[Gimfalisette]

My major point is the karma restriction is not JUST coded power.  You are trusted to set the world mood by including a negative reaction from the npc/vnpc world.  You, as the gemmed/known gicker, must include these negative responses to set an example for the rest of the player population to follow.  If you, the Player, never emote people glaring/leering/spitting/shouting at your gemmed/known gicker then, IMHO, you are doing it wrong.  That is where the trust comes in. 

It is on you, not the other PC's, to set the mood.  Why?  Because you chose to bring the magickal element into the RP equation.  That is not to say other PC's wont help.  You will have players who have played similar roles and (hopefully) will add to the environment.  But you cannot expect mundanes to step up.  Why?  Because they might not know HOW to react.  They could be newbs to Armageddon and react in a totally inconsistent way to the documentation.  Is reacting against documentation wrong?  No, but you as the player of a gemmed/known magicker must counter act any exceptional reaction with one more along the documentations line.  This is to maintain the feel of the world, your responsibility with karma.

This all ties into the OP.  There is no definitive answer for the Red's, the Trader's.  Practically anywhere in Allanak.  Social rank and class determines everything and there are too many variables in that equation to have it black and white.  But if you do go there, you need to RP the appropriate reaction.  Let's just not assume that reaction is cutndry.

I just can't agree. I am not, myself, particularly good at environmental emotes, nor do I really enjoy doing them. However, I have earned some karma for my play, almost none of which has included doing environmental/VNPC emotes, but much of which has included the responsible wielding of power. I do not have some gimongous "responsibility" to emote the rest of the city reacting to me, whether I'm playing a gemmer, a bard, a noble, a soldier, or whatever. Sometimes I do it when I feel like it, but environmental emotes are not the be-all-end-all of responsible roleplay.

It's not my job to mood up the scene for you, because that's not what my job is in ARM, period. My job in ARM, personally, is to be a leader, to make things happen, to set creative plots into motion, and to make interesting scenes by interacting with other PCs in interesting ways. However, it might be your job to mood up the scene, if that is what you are good at. You probably have talents I don't, and don't have talents I do, so by all means--do your job. I'll do mine.

There's just no one-size-fits-all for responsible karma-PC roleplay.

When I'm playing a gemmer and I go to a tavern, I don't go there for the purpose of adding oooOOOOooooo to your PC's life, for the most part. And I never will, because that is just not what I do.

[RogueGunslinger]

Huh. That's the only reason I go into taverns.

I agree though, people play differently.

[Attana]

As was suggested, please take this entirely different argument to another thread.  People have veered completely off topic.

In response to the original post - is the Red's Retreat socially above the gemmed?  Yes.  It is, and it was in times past.  I remember days back when you wouldn't see a gemmed stepping foot in the Bard's Barrel.  Not even one who had 'connections'.  The Gaj is the common drinking ground for riff-raff, gemmed, thugs and Bynners alike.  Just because your gemmer has connections or is in Oash, should really mean little when it comes to being more socially accepted than anyone else.  Why?  Because they're still a gemmer.  Would they be more accepted among -other- gemmers?  Possibly.  But the common populace as a hole?  No.

The Red's Retreat/Bard's Barrel is/was a step up from the Gaj.  Rinthi's and gemmers would most likely not be spotted in this environment.  IMHO.  As nobles are sometimes spotted there, if they were seeking to 'slum', those two bottom ranked on the Allanaki social scale (which gemmers aren't even listed on) would more than likely want to avoid it.

In times past, gemmers were often humiliated and sometimes beat in public for going into the Bard's while nobility or the Templarate were present there, along with tribal humans and rinthi's.  I have seen it, years ago.  I'd like to see more of it, actually.

[Marc]

Don't need to take it so far.  While I personally think it's cool when someone can really bring a room alive through creative emotes it's not within all of our creative powers.  Cool beans.  But you CAN still rp the world reacting to your character.  Add a sneer to the bartender when he hands you a drink.  If you don't want to include any npcs or vnpcs, just rp your character reacting to general distrust, stares, fear, glares etc.

The fact remains that you have to consider the environment with your RP.

It's not my job to mood up the scene for you, because that's not what my job is in ARM, period. My job in ARM, personally, is to be a leader, to make things happen, to set creative plots into motion, and to make interesting scenes by interacting with other PCs in interesting ways.

Your three examples of what YOU do all set the mood.  This might be nitpicking semantics, but by creating and roleplaying a believable character, you set the mood.  You can create a bearded dwarf who role plays summoning familiars and wears a wizard hat (possible!  or am I the only one who has seen the occasional hairy dwarf slip through chargen?), involve lots of people in wide-reaching plots, have a dynamic personality and be well liked.  That character, no matter how much people like him/her, would be wrong.  It does not fit with the game world.  

This is an over the top example but lines can be drawn to any character who ignores documentation in favor of being the exception.  We don't allow elves that ride.  We require dwarves to have a focus.  We enforce a muls (and much lesser extent, half-elves) internal struggle.  Why shouldn't we require that magickers respect and acknowledge overwhelming public opinion of them and role-play according?

You don't need flowery emotes to have a bartender refuse to serve you.  You don't need a masters in english to suggest that one of many many many npcs looked at you weird, crossed the street when they saw you coming or anything similar.

To draw on another post about engaging newbies THIS IS A MAGICKERS RESPONSIBILITY!  That newb is not going to know to spit on you.  RP that you're getting hassled!  Use it as a chance to educate a player about the role magickers fill in Armageddon.  These are not Gandolfs!

Then just take it one step further:  Do it with everyone, not just newbs.  Not everyone can keep emotes up constantly, but do what YOU can to reinforce the documentation.  To bring the hate, fear and distrust into the every day.  If you don't think that's your responsibility, mundanes might be a better route.

to the OP:  If your character would be accepted in the Red's, role play the reaction as YOU see it.  If they wouldn't, RP a believable reaction.  The heart of whether gemmed would or should be allowed is on whether it's the gemmed responsibility to segregate themselves or on other pc's to force them out.  Individual exceptions are just that, exceptions.

[Synthesis]

Basing your argument on how things were or weren't in the past is generally not a good idea, because things have been quite different at many different times in the past.

I think the Red's Retreat should be THE gemmer hangout, especially since it's right across the street from FIND OUT IC.

[Gimfalisette]

But you CAN still rp the world reacting to your character.  Add a sneer to the bartender when he hands you a drink.  If you don't want to include any npcs or vnpcs, just rp your character reacting to general distrust, stares, fear, glares etc.

The fact remains that you have to consider the environment with your RP.

I'm not interested in doing that, and I'm not going to do it. "Considering" the environment does not mean that I must roleplay what the environment does to me. It means only that I need to roleplay my reaction to and presence within the environment correctly.

But feel free to do it, as you are probably good at it, and probably enjoy doing it.

[Kryos]

I agree pretty much exactly with Gimf's first post here.  Red's is for the middle class commoners to the upper class commoners.  Byn runners, unconnected gemmers, and indeps with few friends or a crude attitude belong in the Gaj.  It should be common to seeing the seasoned Troopers, connected gemmed, gmh employees, and the like over at Reds. 

[Pale Horse]

We all have our own opinions and seeing just how they're argued is great, but you know what would be even better?  Seeing it all in the game!  In there you can get all the social back-biting, hating, cross-actions and byplay of your characters' expressing themselves!

On topic, is the Red's Retreat socially above the gemmed?  Yes and No.  Very much so.

This IG year it might very well be socially above the gemmed.  Hanging out there would be bad for their health, connections, employment and all that.  Next month, or with a power shift in the city as such and such noble is replaced in rank by noble lord whoshisface or Templar of the Red Big Shot has been seen occasionally having pleasant conversations with some of the infrequent magickesr there, the Red may totally be the exact place for the gemmed to congregate.  Some soldier could think it might even be a great way to earn a promotion by swallowing a good chunk of their obvious resentment, fear and disgust towards a finger-wiggler and start to show enough tolerance towards one to show to their superiors that they can keep a level head above what those of their peers.  Then next month when the social power shifts again, it's time to run them hard to save face and show where your true allegiance is.

So, yes, the Red is socially above the gemmed..unless it's not.

[Marc]

There is another topic now.  Moved!

[A Dry, Quiet War]

I'll agree that the Retreat is probably not the best place to be both offensive and unsponsored.

Back, oh, circa 2007, the Bard's Barrel was kind of the big hangout for people who had aspirations of niceness: noble and merchant house employees, low-ranking militia officers, etc...and, yes, a good number of gemmed mages (primarily Oashi?).  This is the closest thing Allanak has to a middle class: people with good incomes and minor connections, but not a lot of actual power.  These are people who can get offended and start to make trouble for you, though less than they imagine.

So, true, if you're a member of an Inherently Offensive Minority (necks, gickers, half-ears), maybe you'd best be looking about for a sponsor before you go to meddling around nice folk.

But everybody else should keep in mind that magickers usually aren't poor and can be very, very useful to very, very important people.  Jane Unclanned Wiggler may be Great Lord Amos Nenyuk's favorite petbomination and bangmaker.

[Gimfalisette]

a good number of gemmed mages (primarily Oashi?)

Oash actually was not an open clan at the time. But yes, there were other gemmed mages that hung out at the Barrel, mostly CAM-affiliated.

[Spice Spice Baby]

Basing your argument on how things were or weren't in the past is generally not a good idea, because things have been quite different at many different times in the past.

This sums my feelings up nicely.

[Jenred]

Is it utterly impossible for people to leave derails out of a thread? - Seriously, just take it to private messages. It is unclassy, makes the players look like a bunch of ninnies, and doesn't advance the discussion any further. The fact that I have to read through 2 pages of garbage to read a few responses to the initial question is bullshit.


That being said - The Red's Retreat is -not- too classy for Gemmers. The place has been a Gemmers hangout for at least 5 years. It is filled with all kinds of personnel. Gemmers, elves, northerners, Gypsies at some points in the past, etc, etc. An elf even worked as a shop-keeper there.

What players choose to do in game is up to them. But the virtual world does not care if a gemmed magicker goes into the Barrel/Retreat/whatever. I've had magickers recruited there, and they did not seem to care that I was there prior to being an employee of their's.

Some characters, during different times have made life very uncomfortable in the city for gemmers, other times it was easy. I've had interactions as a gemmer with the bartender, animated by an IMM. There was no expressed unwelcome.

I spend money, they serve me. I am a citizen of Allanak that happens to be cursed with abilities that thousands of people, over the past several hundred years have also had. We are monitored and controlled, like slaves, with gems. Slaves money is good there. Elves money is good there.

So for the original question: no, the place is not "too classy" for Gemmers, of any kind. Even elvish-rinth gemmers.

But like all activities, ensure your character has IC justification for THEIR actions. Just because the place is not too classy for your character to be there, doesn't mean you have reason to be there. If you are an Elvish Rinth Magicker... why do you want to be in there? Is it OOC driven or IC driven? (i.e. Looking for PC interaction, or accomplishing something IC?)

[Jdr]

In every city in the world there's a dive where the cops hang out. The Red's Retreat is the cop dive in my mind.

Militia go there because it's the place where historical things happened for them, it's right there on the walls depicting what happened. It's even NAMED after Red Robes resting up in there, so it's by every means a place for the most VAUNTED of Allanaki Nobility to slum there if they so desire it (and it would be completely acceptable, too). I imagine I'd see Militia hoping to avoid the Templars who dominate and frequent the tavern in the Templar's Quarters, House Guards and even signed mercenaries to GMHs who are a little more clean-nosed than the types you'd normally get in the profession.

And of course those few who are the artists, mummers and bards of Allanak would ply their trade there the most.

In short, it's basically as close to the Sanctuary as Allanak has. If the Gemmed go in there they would be completely aware that their presence may offend the whims of a particularly moody Noble and they'll suffer the ramifications. That being said, the same could be said for ANY citizen. Heck, a particularly irate Red Robe might decide to toss out a junior Noble he or she might dislike.

[Synthesis]

In every city in the world there's a dive where the cops hang out. The Red's Retreat is the cop dive in my mind.

Is the Red's Retreat a dive or a snazzy place? You seem to have conflicting opinions about the quality of the establishment.  Also, the Gaj is Allanak's sportsbar, and if there's one thing cops unanimously enjoy, it's sports.  (Bloodsports!)

Militia go there because it's the place where historical things happened for them, it's right there on the walls depicting what happened.

Plenty of historic things have happened at the Gaj, too.  Even more historic and awesome, if you ask me.

It's even NAMED after Red Robes resting up in there, so it's by every means a place for the most VAUNTED of Allanaki Nobility to slum there if they so desire it (and it would be completely acceptable, too). I imagine I'd see Militia hoping to avoid the Templars who dominate and frequent the tavern in the Templar's Quarters, House Guards and even signed mercenaries to GMHs who are a little more clean-nosed than the types you'd normally get in the profession.

It has its name, I believe, because a certain red-robed templar was instrumental in saving it from complete destruction and/or had a large stake in its reconstruction.  It doesn't have anything to do with red-robes in general, or even templars in general.

In short, it's basically as close to the Sanctuary as Allanak has. If the Gemmed go in there they would be completely aware that their presence may offend the whims of a particularly moody Noble and they'll suffer the ramifications. That being said, the same could be said for ANY citizen. Heck, a particularly irate Red Robe might decide to toss out a junior Noble he or she might dislike.

No, the Trader's Inn is the closest thing Allanak has to the Sanctuary.  All the nice people should hang out there.

[Shalooonsh]

This discussion needs to stay on topic.

[spawnloser]

The gem doesn't define you social standing.  Just like any other commoner, as others have said, it depends on the gemmer.

[Spoon]

Also, OOC opinion doesn't really govern what happens in game unless you do something about it. Social standing should be entirely IC with IC consequences. It's also dynamic rather than set in stone. One week the gemmers might be hanging around the Gaj, the next week a bunch of mercenaries might take over and start to hassel them... the next week a militia unit might start hanging out there causing people who want to avoid them to move on. If you PC doesn't like the bar's population they can do something about it or move on.

[Twilight]

Social caste is a northern thing.

In the South, its about who you know and how useful you are to them.  Sure, there is some progressive changes as time has gone on changing how things "should" be.  Which makes historical examples...interesting.

The first Oashi mage I knew exclusively used Traders as far as I ever saw, and had his own house provided by Oash.

However, what hasn't changed is that templars have a very real impact on what is "appropriate" for the gemmers of their time.  If a templar has decided that it is appropriate for Gerry Gemmer to hang out in Traders for his own devious ends, it is appropriate.  Until such time as he dies or decides it is no longer appropriate or some other templar comes along to screw with his carefully laid plans.

[AmandaGreathouse]

IMO, currently: You're much more likely to see middle-management types, aides, and house hunters in Red's than the Gaj currently (or recently). And because of the general status of a mage as a second class citizen, I personally feel that it does kind of put it above them. Though I grant there are of course exceptions (Oash mages and those working for the templarate), I think in a general way, they should at the very least be FAR more shunned in Red's, if not outright thrown out. After all, upper-middle class House Merchant Trainee Talia doesn't feel like associating with scum (The Gaj) and she knows better than to overstep her own rank (pissing around the trader's casually), so she goes to the middle class bar. I personally really like the division it offers as well. You want to idle in a tavern and talk to your other middle-class homies without gemmed scum underfoot, go to Red's. Or slum it at the Gaj much like nobles and templars would be slumming it at Red's.

*shrug* Just my two sids.

[Gimfalisette]

upper-middle class House Merchant Trainee Talia doesn't feel like associating with scum (The Gaj) and she knows better than to overstep her own rank (pissing around the trader's casually), so she goes to the middle class bar.

There's no reason Talia can't hang out at Trader's, actually. In fact, business-wise, she should be hanging out at Trader's so that she can get comfortable and familiar with the active PC nobles / templars / aides, be ready to take messages or relay orders for her boss, polish her social skills, and so on. The name of the tavern is "Trader's Inn," which pretty much openly states that it's for the merchant class.

If nobles/templars want to hang out somewhere else that's public but not available to the merchantly riff-raff, they can head for the Arboretum. Trader's, however, is not a private nobility enclave, nor should anyone act like it is.

[AmandaGreathouse]

upper-middle class House Merchant Trainee Talia doesn't feel like associating with scum (The Gaj) and she knows better than to overstep her own rank (pissing around the trader's casually), so she goes to the middle class bar.

There's no reason Talia can't hang out at Trader's, actually. In fact, business-wise, she should be hanging out at Trader's so that she can get comfortable and familiar with the active PC nobles / templars / aides, be ready to take messages or relay orders for her boss, polish her social skills, and so on. The name of the tavern is "Trader's Inn," which pretty much openly states that it's for the merchant class.

If nobles/templars want to hang out somewhere else that's public but not available to the merchantly riff-raff, they can head for the Arboretum. Trader's, however, is not a private nobility enclave, nor should anyone act like it is.

I didn't mean to imply that it was exclusively for nobles/templars, though it does reflect a higher class (by far) of patronage than the Gaj, and higher (by some) than Red's. Not only in the NPC's representing its population, but in the menu, echoes, and pricing, not to mention decor.

[musashi]

Honestly ... I'm so very tired of the "should the gemmers/rinthis/breeds/aides/hunters/nobles/templars/merchants/squirrels/badgers/snakes be going to <insert whatever bar is the flavor of the week here>" threads that keep popping up every so often.

Near as I can tell every area in the game that is supposed to be restricted to a certain social class/guild/race ... is, and it's coded.

My two 'sids: Next time someone feels the urge to make a post like this, why not go to the request tool and select the "Question" feature. Then one can ask the staff directly, discreetly, about whether or not person x should really be going into area y, before they make a post that, in the best of circumstances, is just going to make another player feel chastised.

Because I mean really ... it doesn't take much of a leap in logic to figure out that a gemmed PC must have walked into Red's Retreat while the OP's PC was in there. It comes off to me as more or less being an OOC attack against someone tossed up on the forums. About the same as if someone got mindbended and hopped on the GDB to start up a "psions are too powerful" thread.

[Cavaticus]

The doorman at the Trader's already keeps out those who shouldn't really be there.

I'll put it like this: The Trader's Inn is -just barely- nice enough that junior nobles and blue-robed templars don't have to feel completely embarrassed to be there. They probably don't want to be there. They probably want to be in their estate or in the various other areas that are off-limits to 'regular' folk. But they can't. They have to be visible and that means rubbing shoulders with the filthy, disease-ridden trash that populate Allanak. And if they're going to do that, they may as well do it somewhere with a clean floor.

But if you're the type of citizen who thinks the Trader's Inn is totally sweet and posh and upper-crusty, you're probably not a noble or templar.