Expanding the 'Hit'

[Semper]

If your target is subdued, what would you all think if you're able to 'hit' them when unarmed, and it'll be like a regular brawl hit? Hit them in the guts, or across the face, so on. You just wouldn't have those echos where you're throwing drinks at them or tossing them over tables and stuff.

Unless this is already in place...?

[Synthesis]

> kill man;disengage

[mansa]

>mercy on

> kill man;disengage

Fixed.

[Synthesis]

Ha, well...if you can kill a man with two punches, maybe you ought not to be punching people you want alive at all.

[jhunter]

Ha, well...if you can kill a man with two punches, maybe you ought not to be punching people you want alive at all.

Lol, I've had characters that could kill in two punches.

[Kryos]

Moving along towards something topical, I'd love it if we could toss some extra pazzaz on subude, actually.  As in, a choking or ko'ing system.  I believe this has been talked of elsewhere, but the idea seems both reasonable and realistic.  If someone's got you in a rear naked choke, arm bar, etc, they can put your ass down.

crit failure:  subdue is reversed, target now has you subdued
failure: target gets free
success:  target looses stun based on your skill/str comparisons
crit success:  target looses most of their total stun

Maybe I like mma too much, but I can see many times ig when this would be useful.  That rinthy schmuck spamming flee after being taken by a burly guard?  Choke his scrawny but out.  Need to take someone alive somewhere?  Ditto.

[Marc]

Won't likely see an expansion of subdue.  It has found a balance between playability and realism.

In the past you were able to draw weapons with someone subdued.  Too powerful and was pulled out, even if holding a knife to someones throat seems realistic.

In the past you were able to hit people after you subdue'd them without releasing them first.  I.E. instead of needing a friend to put the hurt on, you could subdue/kill and pretty much fuck anyone up.  Call it neck-snapping, throat-slitting.  Too powerful and was pulled out, no matter how realistic.

At one time you could subdue and then backstab.  That was stupid powerful.

Its current state is based off past abuse.  The skill is too common and not scaleable.

With MMA, BJJ, Karate etc-eh the techniques are not necessarily intuitive.  How many people do you know that would just 'figure out' a triangle choke without ever seeing someone else do it?  Replace triangle choke with whatever you please.  To pull them off you need technique and that's not something universally intuitive to all peoples.

Armageddon does have specialized combat techniques.  Your zalanthasized (sic?!?) bushido, kendo etc.  They are highly prized and guarded secrets.  If you want to learn how to do special combat maneuvers you should seek some in game combat masters within organizations known for being master warriors and prove your worth many many many times over.  Cards played right, you might learn something.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Moving along towards something topical, I'd love it if we could toss some extra pazzaz on subude, actually.  As in, a choking or ko'ing system.  I believe this has been talked of elsewhere, but the idea seems both reasonable and realistic.  If someone's got you in a rear naked choke, arm bar, etc, they can put your ass down.

As Marc pointed out, yeah it's too powerful. I can remember in my good 'ol twink days using subdue/hit with a high STR character to obliterate warriors way better than me. When you can say, "Oh shit, it looks like I bit off more than I can chew! I'd better sheathe my weapons and get ready for a grapple." there's something wrong.

Also, this exact "choke" topic was discussed to exhaustion in another thread a couple years ago. (I might have even started it, but I'm not sure.) Sorry, don't have time to hunt it down right now.

As far as 'hit', I've always thought this code needed an overhaul for emotive properties. I believe in a certain generally accepted barfight "etiquette" of "emote, hit <target>, wait for them to do the same, emote, <hit target>." The problem with this is that I could always emote throwing a kick at your side, and end up hurling a beer bottle. PERSONALLY, what I would like to see is more like:

hit (going for the crotch punch!) And the mud would add something to it like,
The bearded black-haired young man moves to hit the annoying drunk guy, going for the crotch punch! He connects, doubling the annoying drunk guy over.
or
The bearded black-haired young man moves to hit the annoying drunk guy, going for the crotch punch! He misses, narrowly.

Quote from: Synthesis on March 03, 2010, 11:23:16 AM
>mercy on

> kill man;disengage

Yeah, well, this also releases them. I'm thinking of this as a command useful for jail cell interogation, or a good 'ol back alley beating. (Yeah right. Who beats you up and lets you live?) Not like a SUPRE MEGA DEATH PUNCH like the good 'ol bad days, but more like a knock the wind out of you, leave a bruise punch, circa 10-20 stun, 5-10 HP? Maybe with a small timer to ensure that it doesnt' become a have your buddy subdue, then
punch
punch
punch
punch
puhnc
punch
punch
punch
punch

[IAmJacksOpinion]

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,34309.0.html
\
There's the thread on the subdue "choke" idea, btw.

[jhunter]

You know, that has always bugged me.

Why is it that realistic and powerful = a problem to be fixed/done away with?

And realistic but adds nothing but to make play a pain in the butt/more difficult = the way to do things?

The way it used to be, I had been subdue/Ko'd or killed and I had escaped attempts to do so. I had subdued/KO'd or killed others and also had them escape. I mean, it's not a guarantee, so how was it overly powerful?

[Marc]

Same reason staff decided charge was over powered.

Gameplay balance.  It might be realistic that you can choke someone out, subdue/ko or however you envision that code to work.  It might be realistic that an 18 ton lizard could crush an elf without the elf having much of any chance.

Probably the same reason Sap was neutered after anyone with decent agility could knock out anyone at anytime (anyone else play an elf warrior/thug right after subclasses were put in?  ).

If subdue was a mul or sorcerer only skill that was rare, being super realistic and powerful.  No problem.

When any noob from CircleMud2319 or WoW can get the ability from conception, it needs to have training wheels on it.

[Kryos]

Using weapons on someone while you've got them in a lock is . .. not realistic.  you've no power generation, and if you're using a knife, they could knife you back.  If both could, no worries.  

Hitting someone you're holding in place with a grapple is similarly problematic, its very, very hard to get power generation.  Its why you get 'ground and pound' in mma bouts.  They are pinning their opponent with their legs,  after having completely positioned them while the victim is on their back, in order to be a threat that way.  

However, its a natural progression to go from a hold to a choke or limb break.

edit to add:  However, subdue in general should meet with terrible, painful results when you try to close for a grapple on an armed target.  Massive failure chance at best.

[evil_erdlu]

Normally I hate D&D grappling rules with a passion. But, maybe in our case, they may be a bit useful? Let's say:

Note: I'm simply making up possibilities.

1. You can use a light weapon, but you get -X to all your subdue-related rolls. You need one hand free. If you get subdued while wielding an unusable weapon or with both hands full - see 5 - you can always 'drop' it as a free action.
2. There are two new commands - choke and pin which can only be used while you subdue someone or you're subdued. Choke tries to damage opponent with a large delay. Pin tries to make him helpless with a HUGE lag.
3. When you subdued someone or are subdued, you can move. There's a skill contest and if you fail, you can't move and lose some movement points. If you do not fail, it's more complicated. If you're opponent's awake and has 'nosave subdue', you move as normal. If he's resisting or unconscious, you move as if encumbered with your opponent's weight. (I hate that you can easily subdue unconscious NPC and move freely, while you would never be able to drag the opponent's corpse.)
4. You can 'pin' opponent or you can get 'pinned'. When pinned, you can only use 'flee' to get back to normal grappling. The pinning person has +X to his checks for 'choke' and movement but he always carries you as an encumbrance. There may be another command, 'haul', to remove the pin from the opponent and haul him to his feet.
5. If your opponent wields ANY weapon, he gains a free 'flee' with a large bonus and no penalties even as the subdue starts.
6. There is no 'release' command. Either person, even if he initiated the grapple, should 'flee' out of the grappling.

So...

.... Why can the subdued also enter commands? Because if a half-giant starts dragging me, I can try pelting him with my puny punches. An experienced wrestler may roll with the idiot trying to strangle him and pin him instead of backing away after he gets grappled. Just because you managed to type the command fast and initiated a grapple, you shouldn't be the winner all the time.

.... Why are weapons allowed? Only if you're the one initiating the subdue. The large penalty should dissuade the people from using this if they're not experienced but hell, if I'm experienced, I should manage to pin someone easily. If you're not the one initiating the subdue, you try to back away if possible, because otherwise you'll have a penalty in your subdue checks and we don't want people run around typing 'subdue;pin' at armed folks.

.... Why am I allowed to 'choke', to let me run around typing 'subdue X;choke;choke;choke'? Eh.. We have delays for each command during which someone can 'flee' and you have to win another 'subdue' check for each hit. Also each command will tire you even more.. And if you still can do it, let's visualize it. Experienced warrior suddenly lunges forward, holds the f-me aide in a bear hug and starts constricting. I view it as a realistic possibility.

.... So if I 'pin' someone, he's helpless, this is certain death!! For the command 'pin', there should be some additional gimping penalties to your opposed skill check. But eh, if you can subdue someone with great ease - having so much more skill than him... Eh kill him. Imagine a half-giant wielding clubs and attacking instead. Even though I am not that experienced about half-giants, my limited experience shows it's nearly certain to keep someone in a reel-lock. It's death either way, but you have to work on your subdue along with fighting for the first.

.... No 'release' command? Yes.. No release command. After you lunge at the experienced warrior and start to get pelted by his fists, you can't say "I'm bored, I'm not playing" and back away. You can win your way out of the grappling just like your opponent does.

Ah.. this is all.. Later I'll be able to check for responses.