But you're too tired to flee!

[Gunnerblaster]

So, I was just thinking to myself how much it sucks to have 1-3 stamina in a fight. Can't flee - Basically can't do anything except wait to die.

That's when a little idea hit me. What if we can still flee from combat with 1-3 stamina but our chances are greatly reduced and if we do successfully pull it off, we flee in a random direction and are automatically put into a sitting position - With appropriate lag. I mean, most people would say, 'wtf? You still are going to die.' Well - It breaks combat and maybe, if you're fighting with a PC, you can try to be reasonable. And there has been so many times where I have fallen exhausted infront of some safe place - I'd be willing to take that 25% chance that I'd flee in the right direction.

Meh. What are all of your thoughts on something like this? And it isn't like it could be easily abused since the guy would just follow you into the other room and start attacking you.

[Ampere]

So, I was just thinking to myself how much it sucks to have 1-3 stamina in a fight. Can't flee - Basically can't do anything except wait to die.

That's when a little idea hit me. What if we can still flee from combat with 1-3 stamina but our chances are greatly reduced and if we do successfully pull it off, we flee in a random direction and are automatically put into a sitting position - With appropriate lag. I mean, most people would say, 'wtf? You still are going to die.' Well - It breaks combat and maybe, if you're fighting with a PC, you can try to be reasonable. And there has been so many times where I have fallen exhausted infront of some safe place - I'd be willing to take that 25% chance that I'd flee in the right direction.

Meh. What are all of your thoughts on something like this? And it isn't like it could be easily abused since the guy would just follow you into the other room and start attacking you.

Naw, that's why disengage is there.  I've always extended the scene when my victim disengages, hell I've even let a couple go --- although it usually left them broke.

[Gunnerblaster]

But just think of all the moments you could enact where the blonde runs half-nude away from the knife-wielding killer and trips all the time.

[Synthesis]

Uh, no.

If you are too tired to move, you are too tired to move.  This isn't some movie where the good guy gets an "adrenaline rush" when he's on the brink of death and comes back to save the day.

You're lucky you don't go into negative stun and pass the fuck out.

[musashi]

This isn't some movie where the good guy gets an "adrenaline rush" when he's on the brink of death and comes back to save the day.

Actually when you're starving or dying of thrist the code does just this thing. You get an echo about having a burst of energy, it gives you some stamina back, and hopefully you can use that to haul your arse closer to some food or water.

I feel meh about the OP, I guess it would be alright, but like it's been said already, disengage works well in those situations. I've disengaged from PC raiders before and emoting giving up. They rolled with it.

[Synthesis]

This isn't some movie where the good guy gets an "adrenaline rush" when he's on the brink of death and comes back to save the day.

Actually when you're starving or dying of thrist the code does just this thing. You get an echo about having a burst of energy, it gives you some stamina back, and hopefully you can use that to haul your arse closer to some food or water.

I feel meh about the OP, I guess it would be alright, but like it's been said already, disengage works well in those situations. I've disengaged from PC raiders before and emoting giving up. They rolled with it.

I knew someone would point that out.  Not the same thing.

[Winterless]

This isn't some movie where the good guy gets an "adrenaline rush" when he's on the brink of death and comes back to save the day.

So, am I the only one who has had their PC puncture themselves in the heart with a shot of adrenaline?

Oh. Fuck. 

[Gunnerblaster]

I knew someone would point that out.  Not the same thing.

I thought to mention it but I knew this and that were two unrelated matters.

Sometimes, typing 'disengage' doesn't really help you much. And I am referencing to both NPC and PC encounters, not just PC encounters alone.

But I started thinking about it from a roleplaying perspective and it makes sense. In my OP, I had it in my head that you basically just stand there and refuse to move. But if you take into affect the whole roleplaying thing, being too tired to flee is being too tired to run fast enough to escape the guy/raptor slashing at you.

[Lizzie]

I think, if you know death is coming and just don't want to deal with 10 minutes of screen scroll, it might be nice for "surrender" to result in your character falling to the ground (becoming prone and losing all his defensive ability other than whatever his armor gives him), dropping his sword/weapon, and disengaging from offensive attack.

I've had a couple of characters killed in some really awesome scenes, however there have been a couple of times, where I really just wanted to log out and go to bed, or log out and submit a new character, or log out and take a pee...

If you KNOW your character is gonna die..I just wish there was a way to give up, ICly and codedly, and let the inevitable happen as quickly as possible.

Nosave defense or surrender or something.

[My 2 sids]

Adrenalin rushes are very real, not just movie hype.   Besides, nothing is more frustrating than waiting to die.


However, fleeing is simply running away where here we're talking about last-ditch-effort-to-stay-alive -- so I don't think the two commands should work exactly the same.


I'd could see that if one is in X proximity to any major civilization (and down to extremely low stam or hurt) they could >flee city   and run to the nearest city gate.   HOWEVER, there would be cost involved for this last-burst-of-energy.  Namely, everything in inventory is lost and a Stam cap (similar to how starving affects one) is put on the PC.   Not to mention the PC flees to the _nearest_ civilization -- so the elf who just fled the long arm of Nak's law may, in his "save-me-at-all-costs" mind-frame, end up right back at the gates of 'nak. 

[jhunter]

Nahh...if you're too tired to escape under your own power, you're too tired to escape under your own power.

[janeshephard]

Too tired to move == too tired to move.

Let's keep it that my. My two sids.

[Gunnerblaster]

Yeah, it was just a passing idea that I wanted to shoot up there for others to take a crack at.

[musashi]

I knew someone would point that out.  Not the same thing.

*shrug* People do, outside of the movies, get a second wind sometimes in dire situations. I was just pointing out that getting a second wind is already in place in the game, and while the circumstances are different, I'm pretty confident that the reason for it being coded is in fact, the same reason as the reason this OP was brought up: To give you one last chance to stay alive.

But like I said, I feel "meh" about the OP overall. Just playing devil's advocate.

[janeshephard]

I heart Gunnerblaster but I don't like changing this. You're too tired should even have massive combat penalties.

[Majikal]

I heart Gunnerblaster but I don't like changing this. You're too tired should even have massive combat penalties.

Though I do agree with this, I can see issues with rangers on foot and of course you're very loveable desert elves of the world.

[Synthesis]

I heart Gunnerblaster but I don't like changing this. You're too tired should even have massive combat penalties.

Though I do agree with this, I can see issues with rangers on foot and of course you're very loveable desert elves of the world.

If you don't think you get a pretty large combat penalty when you're tired, you should go try it out sometime.

[Kryos]

I find it entirely unrealistic that you can make yourself unable to move after traversing for an hour at a brisk walk.  I find it unrealistic that someone would be 'too tired' to try and escape the moving house of doom or psychotic armed-to-the-teeth killing machine coming for them.  I also find it annoying.  It'd be much, much, better if it was easy to 'tire yourself out' so you slow down, long long before you 'flop over exhausted.'  I'm in horrible shape compared to my peak self and I can still drag a 60 pound sled up a steep hill for 2 hours(it sucked though).  The type of zalanthian that's going to be out in the wastes makes me look even worse by comparison.  Now, onto the point that you 'don't get surge of adrenaline.'

Go look at the physiology of the fight or flight reflex.  In short, your body pumps speed into itself and you shut down mentally in favor of the instinct to live.  The diameter of your blood vessels change pinching off non-essential or peripherial ones, your skeletal muscles get a slap to the face to empower them, your heart rate skyrockets to pump oxygen and nutrients, and your eyes kick into overdrive.  In short, you become a running/beating machine to the absolute limit of what your body can do. 

If not in 1.arm, I really hope this is considered in 2.arm.  I do recognize, however, it'd be no small inquiry to figure out how to code, exactly, when a character perceives a threat such as this.

[musashi]

Sweet. Now we get to watch Synth talk about biology.

[evil_erdlu]

I find it totally realistic that the sand wears you down so easily, before you even know it. See, I also worked as an export manager for a firm for a brief period and once I got forced to move to the arabian lands.

I walked into the desert... Briefly. It's not snow. It's not grass. It's more tiring that anything _ever_ I felt. Before I could move barely equal of the distance to a local megamarket from home which path I take sometimes twice a day without much tire, I got deadly tired. I didn't have energy to walk back. If something attacked me, I would of course be able to rush a few dozen more steps in fear, maybe even more, but then?

Adrenaline rush is overrated. Because the hunter also has his own rush. Not only fatal danger, but rage and violence, in some accounts even sense of duty and determination also triggers it. So let's assume, the rush offers me twice my normal capability in bodily power. So what? It gives twice its normal capability in bodily power to the agreessor, too.

I can see why we're allowed to flee with 4 hp and live on. I've heard numerous stories of adrenaline rush making people forget broken legs with open breaks - bones jutting out of the flesh, that means - or sagging intestines. But when it comes to speed, I should say the agreessor is as 'accelerated' as you are with adrenaline rush and it cuts your path.

Codewise I am _against_ it. Why? Let's say you are given a rush of 10 stamina points. It's the equivalent of what, 3 rooms on the road? ('flee' takes away 5 because you're running, then if you type 'walk' - which is not _that_ realistic - you can walk two more rooms.) It's not enough to flee from PCs. It's not enough to flee from tracking NPCs. So what is it enough for? Not-so-well coded animals that do not pursue you if you're not in a neighbouring room. That's why I heartily vote against it. If it should be so realistic that we receive adrenaline rushes, NPCs, ALL NPCs should be coded clever enough to walk 2 rooms instead of one to catch you.

If you want realism, do as I do. I _never_ waste more than half my stamina on walking outdoors. That other half is the rush you need if something pursues you. If you're tiring yourself to the limit, you are indeed tiring yourself to the limit.

Note: Kyros' idea is a great idea to have full speed when you have 100% stamina and have your speed gradually decrease as you have less. It can be so made that you may even have negative stamina to a degree; only that you crumple and cannot even get up if you have negative stamina and do anything other than movement. You would also have severe cramps because of all the lactic acid in the muscles and be barely able to move the following few days.

[Synthesis]

It's entirely possible to walk to the point of exhaustion.

The only unrealistic thing is that on Arm, you can actually travel that distance while walking in less than an IC hour.

Keep in mind though, you are traveling a great distance.  The average human has about 110-120 stamina, and a regular "desert" room costs 3 to walk through (last time I checked), so you can spamwalk 37-40 rooms in very little time.

If each room is a mile, that's 37-40 miles.  If we use the archaic "league" per room, it's 110-120 miles.

If you walk that far in a single day, I think it is more than fair to expect that you have pushed your body to its physical limit.  Of course, nobody is ever -so- exhausted that they literally cannot move (at least, not as a result of ordinary physical activity), but the pertinent question is: can you move fast enough and agilely enough to escape from a better-rested, possibly much faster creature when you are already exhausted?

I think the fair answer is: no.  If you have just walked thirty miles, and a well-rested, warmed-up person of equal physical prowess is waiting at the finish line to sprint after you with an axe, he is going to catch you.  You might make it a few hundred meters before he closes the distance, but it is inevitable.

Realistically, it would be possible to walk for an entire IC day, sure, but you would have to do so very slowly.  So slowly that it would actually take you an entire IC day to use all that 120 stamina points.  Think about that for a moment.  90 minutes for 40 rooms, or 2 minutes and 15 seconds per room.  If you actually stopped and rested for 2 minutes and 15 seconds in every room you walked in, to accurately reflect the amount of time it would take to traverse that distance, I suspect you would have quite a bit of stamina left over at the end of the day, provided you weren't traveling in exceptionally poor conditions.

Regarding the "fight or flight" response:  if the victim gains the benefit of it, why not the aggressor?  If you've ever been in a fight, you'll know that you get pretty much the same "adrenaline rush" whether you started it or not.  So this is effectively an outcome-neutral consideration.

Bottom line:  if you're not a d-elf, use a mount and manage its stamina scrupulously.  If you are a d-elf, manage your stamina scrupulously.

[Kryos]

It's entirely possible to walk to the point of exhaustion.

The only unrealistic thing is that on Arm, you can actually travel that distance while walking in less than an IC hour.

Keep in mind though, you are traveling a great distance.  The average human has about 110-120 stamina, and a regular "desert" room costs 3 to walk through (last time I checked), so you can spamwalk 37-40 rooms in very little time.

If each room is a mile, that's 37-40 miles.  If we use the archaic "league" per room, it's 110-120 miles.

If you walk that far in a single day, I think it is more than fair to expect that you have pushed your body to its physical limit.  Of course, nobody is ever -so- exhausted that they literally cannot move (at least, not as a result of ordinary physical activity), but the pertinent question is: can you move fast enough and agilely enough to escape from a better-rested, possibly much faster creature when you are already exhausted?

I think the fair answer is: no.  If you have just walked thirty miles, and a well-rested, warmed-up person of equal physical prowess is waiting at the finish line to sprint after you with an axe, he is going to catch you.  You might make it a few hundred meters before he closes the distance, but it is inevitable.

First:  I agree room size and travel is handled a bit(hell, more then a bit) queerly.  I highly doubt this will get fixed in 1.arm, but I sure hope in 2.arm it's very carefully examined.  Second, exhausting yourself to the point of 'not being able to move' over the course of a day would be. . .well damn hard.  How many times in our history have *armies* covered insane distances on forced marches only to clash and win later?  Several. 

Speaking of armies, those poor infantry soldiers have to lug around a huge pile of gear (say 50-60 lbs) and march though shit and storm while doing it.  They're not ever 'too tired to move.'  Its safe to say that someone 'conditioned for' the wastes would be in comparable shape to a tooth-cut Joe.  Even Killer isn't so exhausted he can't move after that two mile qualifying run.  He might not WANT to go anywhere, and he damn well would be slower doing it, but 'not being able to move' is the sign that the end is freaking neigh. 

Realistically, it would be possible to walk for an entire IC day, sure, but you would have to do so very slowly.  So slowly that it would actually take you an entire IC day to use all that 120 stamina points.  Think about that for a moment.  90 minutes for 40 rooms, or 2 minutes and 15 seconds per room.  If you actually stopped and rested for 2 minutes and 15 seconds in every room you walked in, to accurately reflect the amount of time it would take to traverse that distance, I suspect you would have quite a bit of stamina left over at the end of the day, provided you weren't traveling in exceptionally poor conditions.

Right.  Sneak versus Walk versus Run.  If I'm not running it should damn near impossible to tire myself out to the point I can't move, outside of dehydration/starvation/injury/lugging around the corpse of a dead braxat(I've hunted, I know the joy of dragging even only a 150 pound carcass). Tire, sure, slow down, alright, but sorry brah, you just *can't* keep walking:  Hell no.   With a run, damn skippy, you should tire and tire fast over long distances, humans just aren't built for sustained speed.  Even then they can slow to a walk/jog and keep moving until something more severe then muscle fatigue grips them.  Obviously, those huggable delves are able to do their own thing. 

Regarding the "fight or flight" response:  if the victim gains the benefit of it, why not the aggressor?  If you've ever been in a fight, you'll know that you get pretty much the same "adrenaline rush" whether you started it or not.  So this is effectively an outcome-neutral consideration.

I'm no doctor, but a brief bit of poking around shows that your assumption is just flat wrong.  Logic follows this conclusion as well, they aren't perceiving the same primordial fear of being expunged.  My experience in more then a hand full of fights of varying nature also tells me your assertion is wrong.  I've never been in a melee brawl for my life, sadly, so I'm limited to either brawls or martial arts.  I'd also be highly skeptical of someone posting they have been.  Typical 'sporting' or 'recreational fighting' doesn't really qualify. 

Bottom line:  if you're not a d-elf, use a mount and manage its stamina scrupulously.  If you are a d-elf, manage your stamina scrupulously.

Your opinion, and that's fine, but there honestly seems little to support it.  My opinion based on what I've known through my own many athletic experiences in life and a brief bit of reading on the subject is this take you have is not at all accurate. 

[Lizzie]

The problem Kyros is that you are comparing a fantasy text game's limitations to your own personal experiences. Armageddon isn't intended to mimic reality. If it did, it wouldn't take less than a game-hour to travel the game-equivalent of HALFWAY AROUND THE PLANET.

Zalanthas isn't earth. A zalanthan human isn't an earthling. Half-elves don't exist on planet Earth, neither does an entire race of bald, focus-driven dwarves, halflings, half-giants, muls, elves, or gith. Earth isn't a desert planet, an inix is not a horse, and even a zalanthan horse has only a vague resemblance to a terran equine.

The issue must..always..boil down to playability, when it's a tossup between what is realistic, and what is playable. Realistically, it should take several days to travel from one end of the planet to the other. Playability-wise, no one would bother trying, because it would require being logged in for several game-hours JUST to get from point A to point B, and once you're there, you still have to accomplish whatever you came to accomplish by arriving at the destination.

So, unrealistically, and completely playable, it takes 10 minutes to get from one side of the planet to the other (barring unforseen circumstances such as being raided, or attacked, or magickered, or killed). However, to give the -facade- of realism, you cannot do this on foot, and your mount -will- become too tired to move, if you go too far, too fast.

It isn't supposed to be realistic. It's supposed to be believable, AND playable. I don't see any problem with being "too tired to flee" though I also feel that even in the desert, if you're capable of sitting, have food and water with you, your stamina should be able to rise enough to move a few rooms every few minutes, if only to get the -player- to a point where his non-ranger character gets to a quit-safe room and doesn't get stuck being linkdead in the middle of nowhere.

As for fleeing when you're in combat - what's already been said - I think disengage handles that well enough though I really REALLY would love the opportunity to "surrender" and give up and become prone so as to not prolong combat if I know my character's gonna die anyway. Using "kick" if you don't have the skill, and "disarm" when you don't have the skill, will probably result in the same thing, but it's kinda twinky and doesn't really feel like it's the most appropriate option.

[spawnloser]

Everything Synthesis and evil erdlu said.  Kryos, it is entirely possible to tire yourself while simply walking to the point of being further unable to walk.  You missed what erdlu said about sand.  Read it.

[Kryos]

Spawn, I didn't miss it.  

Lizzie, you're creating a false dichotomy and I don't buy it even slightly.  First, in both my posts I specifically noted the differences between life on earth and Zalanthas.  Unrealistic = playable realistic !- playable is absolutely a false constraint.  Further, realistic, if done right, can even be fun.

Disengage doesn't nearly handle it when a 6 ton house is trying to bite your head off.