But you're too tired to flee!

[Gunnerblaster]

So, I was just thinking to myself how much it sucks to have 1-3 stamina in a fight. Can't flee - Basically can't do anything except wait to die.

That's when a little idea hit me. What if we can still flee from combat with 1-3 stamina but our chances are greatly reduced and if we do successfully pull it off, we flee in a random direction and are automatically put into a sitting position - With appropriate lag. I mean, most people would say, 'wtf? You still are going to die.' Well - It breaks combat and maybe, if you're fighting with a PC, you can try to be reasonable. And there has been so many times where I have fallen exhausted infront of some safe place - I'd be willing to take that 25% chance that I'd flee in the right direction.

Meh. What are all of your thoughts on something like this? And it isn't like it could be easily abused since the guy would just follow you into the other room and start attacking you.

[Ampere]

So, I was just thinking to myself how much it sucks to have 1-3 stamina in a fight. Can't flee - Basically can't do anything except wait to die.

That's when a little idea hit me. What if we can still flee from combat with 1-3 stamina but our chances are greatly reduced and if we do successfully pull it off, we flee in a random direction and are automatically put into a sitting position - With appropriate lag. I mean, most people would say, 'wtf? You still are going to die.' Well - It breaks combat and maybe, if you're fighting with a PC, you can try to be reasonable. And there has been so many times where I have fallen exhausted infront of some safe place - I'd be willing to take that 25% chance that I'd flee in the right direction.

Meh. What are all of your thoughts on something like this? And it isn't like it could be easily abused since the guy would just follow you into the other room and start attacking you.

Naw, that's why disengage is there.  I've always extended the scene when my victim disengages, hell I've even let a couple go --- although it usually left them broke.

[Gunnerblaster]

But just think of all the moments you could enact where the blonde runs half-nude away from the knife-wielding killer and trips all the time.

[Synthesis]

Uh, no.

If you are too tired to move, you are too tired to move.  This isn't some movie where the good guy gets an "adrenaline rush" when he's on the brink of death and comes back to save the day.

You're lucky you don't go into negative stun and pass the fuck out.

[musashi]

This isn't some movie where the good guy gets an "adrenaline rush" when he's on the brink of death and comes back to save the day.

Actually when you're starving or dying of thrist the code does just this thing. You get an echo about having a burst of energy, it gives you some stamina back, and hopefully you can use that to haul your arse closer to some food or water.

I feel meh about the OP, I guess it would be alright, but like it's been said already, disengage works well in those situations. I've disengaged from PC raiders before and emoting giving up. They rolled with it.

[Synthesis]

This isn't some movie where the good guy gets an "adrenaline rush" when he's on the brink of death and comes back to save the day.

Actually when you're starving or dying of thrist the code does just this thing. You get an echo about having a burst of energy, it gives you some stamina back, and hopefully you can use that to haul your arse closer to some food or water.

I feel meh about the OP, I guess it would be alright, but like it's been said already, disengage works well in those situations. I've disengaged from PC raiders before and emoting giving up. They rolled with it.

I knew someone would point that out.  Not the same thing.

[Winterless]

This isn't some movie where the good guy gets an "adrenaline rush" when he's on the brink of death and comes back to save the day.

So, am I the only one who has had their PC puncture themselves in the heart with a shot of adrenaline?

Oh. Fuck. 

[Gunnerblaster]

I knew someone would point that out.  Not the same thing.

I thought to mention it but I knew this and that were two unrelated matters.

Sometimes, typing 'disengage' doesn't really help you much. And I am referencing to both NPC and PC encounters, not just PC encounters alone.

But I started thinking about it from a roleplaying perspective and it makes sense. In my OP, I had it in my head that you basically just stand there and refuse to move. But if you take into affect the whole roleplaying thing, being too tired to flee is being too tired to run fast enough to escape the guy/raptor slashing at you.

[Lizzie]

I think, if you know death is coming and just don't want to deal with 10 minutes of screen scroll, it might be nice for "surrender" to result in your character falling to the ground (becoming prone and losing all his defensive ability other than whatever his armor gives him), dropping his sword/weapon, and disengaging from offensive attack.

I've had a couple of characters killed in some really awesome scenes, however there have been a couple of times, where I really just wanted to log out and go to bed, or log out and submit a new character, or log out and take a pee...

If you KNOW your character is gonna die..I just wish there was a way to give up, ICly and codedly, and let the inevitable happen as quickly as possible.

Nosave defense or surrender or something.

[My 2 sids]

Adrenalin rushes are very real, not just movie hype.   Besides, nothing is more frustrating than waiting to die.


However, fleeing is simply running away where here we're talking about last-ditch-effort-to-stay-alive -- so I don't think the two commands should work exactly the same.


I'd could see that if one is in X proximity to any major civilization (and down to extremely low stam or hurt) they could >flee city   and run to the nearest city gate.   HOWEVER, there would be cost involved for this last-burst-of-energy.  Namely, everything in inventory is lost and a Stam cap (similar to how starving affects one) is put on the PC.   Not to mention the PC flees to the _nearest_ civilization -- so the elf who just fled the long arm of Nak's law may, in his "save-me-at-all-costs" mind-frame, end up right back at the gates of 'nak. 

[jhunter]

Nahh...if you're too tired to escape under your own power, you're too tired to escape under your own power.

[janeshephard]

Too tired to move == too tired to move.

Let's keep it that my. My two sids.

[Gunnerblaster]

Yeah, it was just a passing idea that I wanted to shoot up there for others to take a crack at.

[musashi]

I knew someone would point that out.  Not the same thing.

*shrug* People do, outside of the movies, get a second wind sometimes in dire situations. I was just pointing out that getting a second wind is already in place in the game, and while the circumstances are different, I'm pretty confident that the reason for it being coded is in fact, the same reason as the reason this OP was brought up: To give you one last chance to stay alive.

But like I said, I feel "meh" about the OP overall. Just playing devil's advocate.

[janeshephard]

I heart Gunnerblaster but I don't like changing this. You're too tired should even have massive combat penalties.

[Majikal]

I heart Gunnerblaster but I don't like changing this. You're too tired should even have massive combat penalties.

Though I do agree with this, I can see issues with rangers on foot and of course you're very loveable desert elves of the world.

[Synthesis]

I heart Gunnerblaster but I don't like changing this. You're too tired should even have massive combat penalties.

Though I do agree with this, I can see issues with rangers on foot and of course you're very loveable desert elves of the world.

If you don't think you get a pretty large combat penalty when you're tired, you should go try it out sometime.

[Kryos]

I find it entirely unrealistic that you can make yourself unable to move after traversing for an hour at a brisk walk.  I find it unrealistic that someone would be 'too tired' to try and escape the moving house of doom or psychotic armed-to-the-teeth killing machine coming for them.  I also find it annoying.  It'd be much, much, better if it was easy to 'tire yourself out' so you slow down, long long before you 'flop over exhausted.'  I'm in horrible shape compared to my peak self and I can still drag a 60 pound sled up a steep hill for 2 hours(it sucked though).  The type of zalanthian that's going to be out in the wastes makes me look even worse by comparison.  Now, onto the point that you 'don't get surge of adrenaline.'

Go look at the physiology of the fight or flight reflex.  In short, your body pumps speed into itself and you shut down mentally in favor of the instinct to live.  The diameter of your blood vessels change pinching off non-essential or peripherial ones, your skeletal muscles get a slap to the face to empower them, your heart rate skyrockets to pump oxygen and nutrients, and your eyes kick into overdrive.  In short, you become a running/beating machine to the absolute limit of what your body can do. 

If not in 1.arm, I really hope this is considered in 2.arm.  I do recognize, however, it'd be no small inquiry to figure out how to code, exactly, when a character perceives a threat such as this.

[musashi]

Sweet. Now we get to watch Synth talk about biology.

[evil_erdlu]

I find it totally realistic that the sand wears you down so easily, before you even know it. See, I also worked as an export manager for a firm for a brief period and once I got forced to move to the arabian lands.

I walked into the desert... Briefly. It's not snow. It's not grass. It's more tiring that anything _ever_ I felt. Before I could move barely equal of the distance to a local megamarket from home which path I take sometimes twice a day without much tire, I got deadly tired. I didn't have energy to walk back. If something attacked me, I would of course be able to rush a few dozen more steps in fear, maybe even more, but then?

Adrenaline rush is overrated. Because the hunter also has his own rush. Not only fatal danger, but rage and violence, in some accounts even sense of duty and determination also triggers it. So let's assume, the rush offers me twice my normal capability in bodily power. So what? It gives twice its normal capability in bodily power to the agreessor, too.

I can see why we're allowed to flee with 4 hp and live on. I've heard numerous stories of adrenaline rush making people forget broken legs with open breaks - bones jutting out of the flesh, that means - or sagging intestines. But when it comes to speed, I should say the agreessor is as 'accelerated' as you are with adrenaline rush and it cuts your path.

Codewise I am _against_ it. Why? Let's say you are given a rush of 10 stamina points. It's the equivalent of what, 3 rooms on the road? ('flee' takes away 5 because you're running, then if you type 'walk' - which is not _that_ realistic - you can walk two more rooms.) It's not enough to flee from PCs. It's not enough to flee from tracking NPCs. So what is it enough for? Not-so-well coded animals that do not pursue you if you're not in a neighbouring room. That's why I heartily vote against it. If it should be so realistic that we receive adrenaline rushes, NPCs, ALL NPCs should be coded clever enough to walk 2 rooms instead of one to catch you.

If you want realism, do as I do. I _never_ waste more than half my stamina on walking outdoors. That other half is the rush you need if something pursues you. If you're tiring yourself to the limit, you are indeed tiring yourself to the limit.

Note: Kyros' idea is a great idea to have full speed when you have 100% stamina and have your speed gradually decrease as you have less. It can be so made that you may even have negative stamina to a degree; only that you crumple and cannot even get up if you have negative stamina and do anything other than movement. You would also have severe cramps because of all the lactic acid in the muscles and be barely able to move the following few days.

[Synthesis]

It's entirely possible to walk to the point of exhaustion.

The only unrealistic thing is that on Arm, you can actually travel that distance while walking in less than an IC hour.

Keep in mind though, you are traveling a great distance.  The average human has about 110-120 stamina, and a regular "desert" room costs 3 to walk through (last time I checked), so you can spamwalk 37-40 rooms in very little time.

If each room is a mile, that's 37-40 miles.  If we use the archaic "league" per room, it's 110-120 miles.

If you walk that far in a single day, I think it is more than fair to expect that you have pushed your body to its physical limit.  Of course, nobody is ever -so- exhausted that they literally cannot move (at least, not as a result of ordinary physical activity), but the pertinent question is: can you move fast enough and agilely enough to escape from a better-rested, possibly much faster creature when you are already exhausted?

I think the fair answer is: no.  If you have just walked thirty miles, and a well-rested, warmed-up person of equal physical prowess is waiting at the finish line to sprint after you with an axe, he is going to catch you.  You might make it a few hundred meters before he closes the distance, but it is inevitable.

Realistically, it would be possible to walk for an entire IC day, sure, but you would have to do so very slowly.  So slowly that it would actually take you an entire IC day to use all that 120 stamina points.  Think about that for a moment.  90 minutes for 40 rooms, or 2 minutes and 15 seconds per room.  If you actually stopped and rested for 2 minutes and 15 seconds in every room you walked in, to accurately reflect the amount of time it would take to traverse that distance, I suspect you would have quite a bit of stamina left over at the end of the day, provided you weren't traveling in exceptionally poor conditions.

Regarding the "fight or flight" response:  if the victim gains the benefit of it, why not the aggressor?  If you've ever been in a fight, you'll know that you get pretty much the same "adrenaline rush" whether you started it or not.  So this is effectively an outcome-neutral consideration.

Bottom line:  if you're not a d-elf, use a mount and manage its stamina scrupulously.  If you are a d-elf, manage your stamina scrupulously.

[Kryos]

It's entirely possible to walk to the point of exhaustion.

The only unrealistic thing is that on Arm, you can actually travel that distance while walking in less than an IC hour.

Keep in mind though, you are traveling a great distance.  The average human has about 110-120 stamina, and a regular "desert" room costs 3 to walk through (last time I checked), so you can spamwalk 37-40 rooms in very little time.

If each room is a mile, that's 37-40 miles.  If we use the archaic "league" per room, it's 110-120 miles.

If you walk that far in a single day, I think it is more than fair to expect that you have pushed your body to its physical limit.  Of course, nobody is ever -so- exhausted that they literally cannot move (at least, not as a result of ordinary physical activity), but the pertinent question is: can you move fast enough and agilely enough to escape from a better-rested, possibly much faster creature when you are already exhausted?

I think the fair answer is: no.  If you have just walked thirty miles, and a well-rested, warmed-up person of equal physical prowess is waiting at the finish line to sprint after you with an axe, he is going to catch you.  You might make it a few hundred meters before he closes the distance, but it is inevitable.

First:  I agree room size and travel is handled a bit(hell, more then a bit) queerly.  I highly doubt this will get fixed in 1.arm, but I sure hope in 2.arm it's very carefully examined.  Second, exhausting yourself to the point of 'not being able to move' over the course of a day would be. . .well damn hard.  How many times in our history have *armies* covered insane distances on forced marches only to clash and win later?  Several. 

Speaking of armies, those poor infantry soldiers have to lug around a huge pile of gear (say 50-60 lbs) and march though shit and storm while doing it.  They're not ever 'too tired to move.'  Its safe to say that someone 'conditioned for' the wastes would be in comparable shape to a tooth-cut Joe.  Even Killer isn't so exhausted he can't move after that two mile qualifying run.  He might not WANT to go anywhere, and he damn well would be slower doing it, but 'not being able to move' is the sign that the end is freaking neigh. 

Realistically, it would be possible to walk for an entire IC day, sure, but you would have to do so very slowly.  So slowly that it would actually take you an entire IC day to use all that 120 stamina points.  Think about that for a moment.  90 minutes for 40 rooms, or 2 minutes and 15 seconds per room.  If you actually stopped and rested for 2 minutes and 15 seconds in every room you walked in, to accurately reflect the amount of time it would take to traverse that distance, I suspect you would have quite a bit of stamina left over at the end of the day, provided you weren't traveling in exceptionally poor conditions.

Right.  Sneak versus Walk versus Run.  If I'm not running it should damn near impossible to tire myself out to the point I can't move, outside of dehydration/starvation/injury/lugging around the corpse of a dead braxat(I've hunted, I know the joy of dragging even only a 150 pound carcass). Tire, sure, slow down, alright, but sorry brah, you just *can't* keep walking:  Hell no.   With a run, damn skippy, you should tire and tire fast over long distances, humans just aren't built for sustained speed.  Even then they can slow to a walk/jog and keep moving until something more severe then muscle fatigue grips them.  Obviously, those huggable delves are able to do their own thing. 

Regarding the "fight or flight" response:  if the victim gains the benefit of it, why not the aggressor?  If you've ever been in a fight, you'll know that you get pretty much the same "adrenaline rush" whether you started it or not.  So this is effectively an outcome-neutral consideration.

I'm no doctor, but a brief bit of poking around shows that your assumption is just flat wrong.  Logic follows this conclusion as well, they aren't perceiving the same primordial fear of being expunged.  My experience in more then a hand full of fights of varying nature also tells me your assertion is wrong.  I've never been in a melee brawl for my life, sadly, so I'm limited to either brawls or martial arts.  I'd also be highly skeptical of someone posting they have been.  Typical 'sporting' or 'recreational fighting' doesn't really qualify. 

Bottom line:  if you're not a d-elf, use a mount and manage its stamina scrupulously.  If you are a d-elf, manage your stamina scrupulously.

Your opinion, and that's fine, but there honestly seems little to support it.  My opinion based on what I've known through my own many athletic experiences in life and a brief bit of reading on the subject is this take you have is not at all accurate. 

[Lizzie]

The problem Kyros is that you are comparing a fantasy text game's limitations to your own personal experiences. Armageddon isn't intended to mimic reality. If it did, it wouldn't take less than a game-hour to travel the game-equivalent of HALFWAY AROUND THE PLANET.

Zalanthas isn't earth. A zalanthan human isn't an earthling. Half-elves don't exist on planet Earth, neither does an entire race of bald, focus-driven dwarves, halflings, half-giants, muls, elves, or gith. Earth isn't a desert planet, an inix is not a horse, and even a zalanthan horse has only a vague resemblance to a terran equine.

The issue must..always..boil down to playability, when it's a tossup between what is realistic, and what is playable. Realistically, it should take several days to travel from one end of the planet to the other. Playability-wise, no one would bother trying, because it would require being logged in for several game-hours JUST to get from point A to point B, and once you're there, you still have to accomplish whatever you came to accomplish by arriving at the destination.

So, unrealistically, and completely playable, it takes 10 minutes to get from one side of the planet to the other (barring unforseen circumstances such as being raided, or attacked, or magickered, or killed). However, to give the -facade- of realism, you cannot do this on foot, and your mount -will- become too tired to move, if you go too far, too fast.

It isn't supposed to be realistic. It's supposed to be believable, AND playable. I don't see any problem with being "too tired to flee" though I also feel that even in the desert, if you're capable of sitting, have food and water with you, your stamina should be able to rise enough to move a few rooms every few minutes, if only to get the -player- to a point where his non-ranger character gets to a quit-safe room and doesn't get stuck being linkdead in the middle of nowhere.

As for fleeing when you're in combat - what's already been said - I think disengage handles that well enough though I really REALLY would love the opportunity to "surrender" and give up and become prone so as to not prolong combat if I know my character's gonna die anyway. Using "kick" if you don't have the skill, and "disarm" when you don't have the skill, will probably result in the same thing, but it's kinda twinky and doesn't really feel like it's the most appropriate option.

[spawnloser]

Everything Synthesis and evil erdlu said.  Kryos, it is entirely possible to tire yourself while simply walking to the point of being further unable to walk.  You missed what erdlu said about sand.  Read it.

[Kryos]

Spawn, I didn't miss it.  

Lizzie, you're creating a false dichotomy and I don't buy it even slightly.  First, in both my posts I specifically noted the differences between life on earth and Zalanthas.  Unrealistic = playable realistic !- playable is absolutely a false constraint.  Further, realistic, if done right, can even be fun.

Disengage doesn't nearly handle it when a 6 ton house is trying to bite your head off.

[RogueGunslinger]

lol It's clear you're reading, but not comprehendiong, or caring to comprehend what others are saying.


My propose solution? A heavily delayed "crawl" command. Not enough to get you away from any NPC or otherwise, but you can still move, albeit very slowly, if your PC is dying of thirst out in the wastes and has no Stam.


Edit: And of course you cant "crawl" away from a fight.

[Khorm]

I don't like ideas like this. Making it easier to survive out in the wastes isn't a direction I think that the game should take.

There are situations that PCs are put in that should result in their death. If you are getting tracked by a tembo and run out of stamina.. I guess that's one of those situations.

I get concerned about a "domino effect" where all of a sudden NPCs in the 'rinth don't beat your ass for wearing silk, they ask you kindly if you'd like to sell it to them for approx. 1.3x market value.

I propose introducing code to raptors, tembos, and other wasteland predators that makes them actively search and eat prey.

[RogueGunslinger]

lol It's clear you're reading, but not comprehendiong, or caring to comprehend what others are saying.


My propose solution? A heavily delayed "crawl" command. Not enough to get you away from any NPC or otherwise, but you can still move, albeit very slowly, if your PC is dying of thirst out in the wastes and has no Stam.


Edit: And of course you cant "crawl" away from a fight.

You know, thinking about it. This would be useless, as the code already handles this situation.


Yeah, no fleeing with zero stamina. Instead I offer you this:

Protip: Don't fight creatures when you don't have stamina.

[Synthesis]

I think you have slightly unrealistic expectations as to what exactly the results of increased sympathetic nervous stimulation would be.

As to the armies thing:  you neatly ignored the fact that it is a comparison.  No, you will not be so exhausted that you cannot move (I even stated this quite clearly).  However, in comparison to someone who is fresh, you -will- be unable to move fast enough to escape, because they are not nearly as exhausted.  I think this point is pretty much self-evident.

So, yes, the system is unrealistic in that you can be literally unable to move.

However, the system is also unrealistic in that you can move much faster across the world than you should be able to.

Thus, hitting "0" on your stamina is the game's way of telling you "you are moving too quickly to be considered even remotely realistic."  It is also the game's way of telling you, "there is no way you can escape this situation under your own power."

Also, I think you have a somewhat unrealistic expectation as to what the result of increased sympathetic nervous stimulation would be.  Yes, it increases your heart rate and respiratory rate and increases the rate of lipid and glucose mobilization while decreasing blood flow to the skin and very distal extremities.  Yes, it increases relative blood flow to skeletal muscle.  However, the net result of this will not be to suddenly make you Lance Armstrong:

"The major target for many illicitly used drugs in sport is the β2-AR that is found in the heart, lungs and skeletal muscle where it controls rate and force, relaxes tone and stimulates growth, respectively. β2-AR agonists are demonstrably powerful bronchodilators, anabolic agents and, in combination with corticosteroids, powerfully enhance their anti-inflammatory actions. However, there is little evidence from animal or human studies that these effects translate into an improvement in performance."  Br J Pharmacol. 2008 Jun;154(3):584-97.

It is also worth noting here that the supposed performance-enhancing aspect of these drugs is over the long term, having to do with their anabolic effects, not their short-term effects.  In fact, the only short-term drugs used to modulate the sympathetic nervous system are antagonists that reduce trembling and shaking for sports such as archery and target shooting.

It is also worth noting again that the system activates in response to "stress," which encompasses a very wide range of potential situations.  It is not merely activated when one is in fear of one's life.  Additionally, I think it is going much too far to assume that the mere activation of the sympathetic stress response would make the difference in a fight between an exhausted victim and a fresh attacker.

[evil_erdlu]

.....
I'm no doctor, but a brief bit of poking around shows that your assumption is just flat wrong.  Logic follows this conclusion as well, they aren't perceiving the same primordial fear of being expunged.  My experience in more then a hand full of fights of varying nature also tells me your assertion is wrong.  I've never been in a melee brawl for my life, sadly, so I'm limited to either brawls or martial arts.  I'd also be highly skeptical of someone posting they have been.  Typical 'sporting' or 'recreational fighting' doesn't really qualify. 
.....

Type "adrenaline rush" in in a search engine and read a few of the more serious results. (Better to type something medical beside - I tried <"adrenaline rush" gland> to ensure I don't see warcraft spells and eminem songs any more)

So; you'll see, the cause of adrenaline rush in the body is fear, anger or stress, as Synthesis mentioned. There are supposed to be trained, artificial adrenaline rushes because of competitive behaviours and conditioning, too. I mean, an athlete secretes more adrenaline as he works out regularly, but it is not a 'rush', it just encourages growth and repair of skeletal muscles. But in the main event in olympics? The stress indeed causes adrenaline rush. A soldier's body secretes adrenaline as the sergeant orders push-ups again when he could barely stand. But only in a real war, even if he's in a tank and feeling relatively safe, adrenaline rush kicks in.

From what I read it seems people get confused and misinterpret adrenaline rush with 'fight-or-flight' instinct, because even in med schools the primary example given is "a tiger in the room". But actually, "Rage occurs when oxytocin, vasopressin, and corticotropin-releasing hormone are rapidly released from the hypothalamus. This results in the pituitary gland producing and releasing large amounts of the adrenocorticotropic hormone, which causes the adrenal cortex to release corticosteroids...bla bla bla bla bla.......... Rage is also a state of mind in which large amounts of epinephrine are released and the body, as previously stated, reverts to a more primal instinct.". Epinephrine is just another fancy name for adrenaline. So people in rage have adrenaline rushes. Have I poked enough?

I'd like to quote you once more, I'm often kind but I have an adrenaline rush whenever someone debates in vain, ignoring facts.

I'm no doctor, but a brief bit of poking around shows that your assumption is just flat wrong.

[Winterless]

Epinephrine is just another fancy name for adrenaline. So people in rage have adrenaline rushes. Have I poked enough?

When I get stung I have to take shots of epinephrine... RAWR, I RAGE!

[Kryos]

Stuff

I wish just one GDB thread could go without someone resorting to strikes at the author instead of ideas.  Really is a pity people didn't take up Olgaris on his offer. (hey look, I can use pathos too!) But seriously, I really do wish it.  So, ignoring the blatant ad hominem fallacy laced into what you wrote, we'll just take a look here.

First, you agree, there's a distinction between adrenal release versus the flight or fight instinct.  Glad we could come to terms there.  Malik the raider, he's probably got some adrenaline pumping, but Amos the might-be-dead, he's well beyond a adrenal release.  His body is simply ignoring everything save the need to live.  Especially true of Malik is really a mekillot and Amos is a unlucky elf. 

So, there's a distinction, and one is far more severe then the other.  Well, maybe.  I read the article Synth quoted from, and its not as relevant as he'd like, I fear(doping trained athletes).  I'll have to get back to it later, as I'm not able to access the school's massive medical db's from where I am now.  This is a problem because a few standard searches couldn't turn up any studies on bodily performance increases during the flight or flight reflex.  I'm fairly inclined to believe the reflex allows people to ignore previous fatigue for short periods of time.  We'll see if I find anything.  Now, why did I write it in the first place?  Synth said this isn't some movie where the good guy gets an adrenaline rush and saves everyone.  Well no, he's not saving everyone, but he sure as shit has a shot at saving himself.  Right, point made, I think.

Regarding the sand/desert environment.  Zwalenburg, with a whole pile of sources regarding heat/extreme conditions/fatigue writes in a medical journal that(surprise surprise) its lack of water that makes us exhausted.  Dehydration is what makes you unable to move, not just walking around the desert.  To further kick this in the ass, I asked my old friend, a civilian but former Sergeant Frist Class.  He says, "You do need to hydrate, and wet sand sucks.  Dry sand isn't that bad.  Wet sand is like really bad snow or mud.  Dry sand, more work than normal but not that bad." Eagle Scout turned infantry man who hiked around the desert for the lolz, that pretty much sells it for me. Now, imagine people who have lived for centuries if not more in a world full of suck and heat.  They are going to handle it a lot smoother. 

So, to sum it up.  If this is done right, people get tired, they want to rest.  But its nearly impossible to make someone literally 'unable to move' from fatigue unless they are poorly nurished and stressed over days time(I hate to say this, but look at the various 'death marches' humans have inflicted on each other.  People walked till they died, in cases.  Or ancient runners who would run till they delivered a message, then some times die).  What really happens is they slow, they need lots of water.   What really gets you when plodding on foot from one place to another is improper protection from the elements, injury, or lack of hydration.

This applies to this discussion quite simply, in the end.  The code handles dehydration well, fatigue in combat well, but handles fatigue and overland travel poorly.  Not being able to move while in 'walk' is simple bollocks.  I'll say it again, since we've been told major changes won't go into place in 1.arm, I hope this concept is sincerely evaluated in 2.arm.

[Aaron Goulet]

I'm not a fan of suddenly getting a burst of additional stamina points when attempting to flee at 0, because it renders <certain IC things> useless.  That, and I see poorly-played scenarios happening, like, "Shit son, you're tired?  Let me beat you with this sparring sword to give you an adrenaline rush!"  In fact, I'm not too fond of any change in this regard altogether.

Opinions and speculation aside, however, if something like this were to make it into the game, I'd like to see it done via one of the two solutions below:

1. If you still have stamina, but not enough to move a room away under normal circumstances, maybe you could flee ONE more room, completely depleting your stamina altogether.  This would only be usable in combat situations.

2. You can flee from combat without stamina, but it consumes health instead, representing the strain you're putting on your body.

[X-D]

If it did, it wouldn't take less than a game-hour to travel the game-equivalent of HALFWAY AROUND THE PLANET.

I'm only going to comment on this because it has been some years since anybody has asked or staff has commented on the subject.

The entire game world that we play in is called "The known world" It is only a tiny tiny section of the entire world. About the size of Connecticut.

Which, according to Wiki is about 70 miles wide and 110 miles long.

The transaltion would be that going from the southern most end of the known (Somewhere in the silt sea) To Luirs (roughly the middle) would be between 35 and 45 miles.

Which is a far cry from "Halfway around the world" Assuming the world is close to the size of earth, halfway around would be around 9,000 miles.

[RogueGunslinger]

There were no ad-hominem  attacks in evil_erdlu's post.


Thank you.

[evil_erdlu]

I wish just one GDB thread could go without someone resorting to strikes at the author instead of ideas.  Really is a pity people didn't take up Olgaris on his offer. (hey look, I can use pathos too!) But seriously, I really do wish it.  So, ignoring the blatant ad hominem fallacy laced into what you wrote, we'll just take a look here.

And the attack is? Saying totally the same thing you said to some other poster? Quoting you? Strikes at the author? Where? Read the first page. I liked your idea. When 'adrenaline rush' is out of it. Adrenaline rush is the illogical part of it.

First, you agree, there's a distinction between adrenal release versus the flight or fight instinct.  Glad we could come to terms there.  Malik the raider, he's probably got some adrenaline pumping, but Amos the might-be-dead, he's well beyond a adrenal release.  His body is simply ignoring everything save the need to live.  Especially true of Malik is really a mekillot and Amos is a unlucky elf.

Nuh uh.. No sir, I do not agree. Adrenaline rush is... as the name implies, "adrenaline" rush. A lot of things from fear of life to unstoppable rage triggers it. Adrenaline rush is not 'only' fight-or-flight instinct. And second, have you ever read anything about one person beating another to death? I read many. Why weren't they saved by 'adrenaline rush'? Because, adrenaline rush is not 'hand of god'.. It's not a belt of giant strength. It makes you last because muscles may last a bit more with more oxygen and less feel of the stingy lactic acid. It doesn't make you cover the whole desert.

So, there's a distinction, and one is far more severe then the other.  Well, maybe.  I read the article Synth quoted from, and its not as relevant as he'd like, I fear(doping trained athletes).  I'll have to get back to it later, as I'm not able to access the school's massive medical db's from where I am now.  This is a problem because a few standard searches couldn't turn up any studies on bodily performance increases during the flight or flight reflex.  I'm fairly inclined to believe the reflex allows people to ignore previous fatigue for short periods of time.  We'll see if I find anything.  Now, why did I write it in the first place?  Synth said this isn't some movie where the good guy gets an adrenaline rush and saves everyone.  Well no, he's not saving everyone, but he sure as shit has a shot at saving himself.  Right, point made, I think.

Find some, on your own. "google", "yahoo", even "altavista"... Type them in your browser then hit CTRL+Enter. Your school's massive medical db may wait. Read only the ones which have an adress of "edu".

Regarding the sand/desert environment.  Zwalenburg, with a whole pile of sources regarding heat/extreme conditions/fatigue writes in a medical journal that(surprise surprise) its lack of water that makes us exhausted.  Dehydration is what makes you unable to move, not just walking around the desert.  To further kick this in the ass, I asked my old friend, a civilian but former Sergeant Frist Class.  He says, "You do need to hydrate, and wet sand sucks.  Dry sand isn't that bad.  Wet sand is like really bad snow or mud.  Dry sand, more work than normal but not that bad." Eagle Scout turned infantry man who hiked around the desert for the lolz, that pretty much sells it for me. Now, imagine people who have lived for centuries if not more in a world full of suck and heat.  They are going to handle it a lot smoother.

Yes, desert dries up your throat, damn it even dries up your eyeballs. That hurts, you feel like your head's swelling even if you take sips from your huge bottle of water thrice a minute. Zwanenburg, you meant, I guess. Near Amsterdam? Where average heat is what, 25 Celcius degrees? 'Wet' sand? When you spit in Sahara, it evaporates in moments. I'm speaking about a true desert; with camels, yellow scorpions, people gowned in bedsheets etc.. (It's a joke, no offense to arabians.. I'm a muslim too, don't shoot me :p )

I had to attend to a doctor there for two days because my migraine would not stop. And I'm told dehydration gives you the headache in a desert area and you dehydrate, as you drink, even if you drink as much water as you can in a desert. So, desert tires you out, be it dehydration or walking, right? What's the difference?

So, to sum it up.  If this is done right, people get tired, they want to rest.  But its nearly impossible to make someone literally 'unable to move' from fatigue unless they are poorly nurished and stressed over days time(I hate to say this, but look at the various 'death marches' humans have inflicted on each other.  People walked till they died, in cases.  Or ancient runners who would run till they delivered a message, then some times die).  What really happens is they slow, they need lots of water.   What really gets you when plodding on foot from one place to another is improper protection from the elements, injury, or lack of hydration.

Yes, I agree.. A person may be forced to walk slower and slower, but someone seasoned in desert atmosphere - not a fatass tourist trying to take a hike like me - would walk. As I mentioned in the first page, I'm all in for having our movement rate be in correlation with our remaining stamina. What I don't agree is, adrenaline rushes and never being completely fatigued. After you tire yourself out past the limits, you must be exhausted for days, if worse doesn't happen. Anyone working out in sports knows that.

[Khorm]

What is far more important to me than wondering whether or not it is "realistic" to flee just one more, or two more rooms, is... is this really a necessary addition to the MUD?

I think it's dangerous to take things away from the MUD that have the potential to get you killed - the more you start doing that, the more it's going to become a MUSH.. which will be sorta like the consistency of the vomit I produce at the idea of that. Why do we need code put in place to make absolutely certain that you survive that dangerous encounter, whilst eliminating any sort of personal responsibility for having put your character in that spot to begin with?  You do something stupid, you die (sometimes).

Having said that, I don't think I've -ever- died to any critter that tracks. Well, I've never died due to the fact that they tracked me down and ate me... headshots and lost links don't count. It probably isn't wise to walk around with your character ~10 stamina points, and if you die due to this, I'd chalk it up to the learning curve. If you're walking around with anywhere from half to max stamina and can't find a way to evade the creature that's basically walking in a straight line til it finds you, chalk it up to the learning curve.

Failing that, spec app a mul.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm in the line of reasoning that making the "non-tracking" beasts easier to flee away from (because that's the only thing this change would do) is bad as well.

[Zoltan]

If it did, it wouldn't take less than a game-hour to travel the game-equivalent of HALFWAY AROUND THE PLANET.

I'm only going to comment on this because it has been some years since anybody has asked or staff has commented on the subject.

The entire game world that we play in is called "The known world" It is only a tiny tiny section of the entire world. About the size of Connecticut.

Which, according to Wiki is about 70 miles wide and 110 miles long.

The transaltion would be that going from the southern most end of the known (Somewhere in the silt sea) To Luirs (roughly the middle) would be between 35 and 45 miles.

Which is a far cry from "Halfway around the world" Assuming the world is close to the size of earth, halfway around would be around 9,000 miles.

Actually, didn't the staff say at one point that the Known as a whole covers about the area of Ohio?

[BlackMagic0]

The state's total area is 41,330 sq mi (107,044 sq km), of which land comprises 41,004 sq mi (106,201 sq km) and inland water 326 sq mi (823 sq km). Ohio extends about 210 mi (338 km) E-W; its maximum N-S extension is 230 mi (370 km).

If so the KNOWN world is roughly 250 miles e-w and 250 miles n-s?

Assuming would not count the sea, since not land. Which could be up to a couple hundred more miles wide and long. o.0

[Kryos]

So, you think there's no difference between say, the adrenaline I had pumping in my veins before my team played for the district title and say, the reaction that shuts off your mind and reduces you to pure instinct?

Additionally, I never claimed that's going to let you trek the desert.  I claimed it'd let you spring out of tiredness to try and evade a mega-predator or psychopath, you know, as per the thread's op.  I also just added a few grumbles like, how its inane you become sessile after walking for an hour with no additional circumstances.

Additionally, to link it together for you.  The name I offered is an author.   Next, if you've got water when you're getting dehydrated, you can keep walking.  Considering we've been sending soldiers into the desert for more then a decade now, its amazing the plethora of studies that have been done there.  And, as for your patronizing about seraches, yeah, wonder what that is?  

No, not scholar.google.com not regular google, not even the ever amazing(lol) Bing brings up studies on the effects of flight or fight in fatigued subjects.  I guessed based on my returns its not a wildly popular subject for research.  But I didn't spend more then two minutes looking, honestly, I'd rather use a superior resource.

[X-D]

Shrug, either way, 110, 250, still a wee bit smaller then 18k+

I find it more realistic to be smaller considering how fast you travel and the numbers of people in the area.

[Fathi]

I find it unrealistic that someone would be 'too tired' to try and escape the moving house of doom or psychotic armed-to-the-teeth killing machine coming for them.

You can still try to flee. The amount of stamina points you have left will determine whether your attempt is successful. If you do not have enough stamina points, you don't have to interpret it as simply being tired enough that you stand there and get munched on. It could be your PC is so tired that he simply can't move quickly enough to escape. I think the code handles this in a satisfactory, realistic manner.

[spawnloser]

First, iirc, I believe the staff have said the Known World is about the size of Michigan minus the upper peninsula... which isn't far off from Ohio, in the grand scheme of things.  Still, the point remains, mister Strawman, that any distance in this game is hardly half-way around the planet.

Second, this 'adrenalin rush' idea would do what?  It would give you enough stamina to move a few rooms?  Oh, good job.  Realistically, you get that far and should then be even more exhausted and still easy prey for the individuals trying to kill you... because it is unrealistic to move 2n1e and thus be proof from attack by non-tracking NPCs, which can work with the code restrictions.  You should die.  This 'adrenalin rush' idea would only be a way to unrealistically avoid NPCs.

[Lizzie]

The point remains, that if it's the size of Michigan, OR Ohio, OR Connecticut, the argument of "realism" is invalid because walking the entire state of Connecticut, Ohio, or Michigan would not take the average human being the game-equivalent of a single day. Especially if you pick any of those states up and stick them in the middle of the Mohave Desert, toss a few salt flats in the middle, and add a silt sea at the end, with constant, sudden, 4-hour-long sandstorms you would have to walk -through- to get from point A to point B.

Halfway around the world, all the way through Connecicut, I mean how many nits can a person pick? If your character is walking many many many MANY MANY miles through desert and scrub wilderness with big bad monsters that he has to watch out for, and mean nasty raiders who he has to watch out for, while carrying a pack filled with stuff, while using a weapon and/or shield he may/may not have any idea how to use...

then it wouldn't "realistically" take a game-day to get through an area approximately the size of Ohio. Connecticut, or Michigan, on foot. Further, if one were to ride a horse (or game equivalent) that size, said mount would also "realistically" not be able to get through the entire state without rest, food, and water.

At some point, said walker and/or said mount would -need- to rest. Would require the activity of -not travelling- for a length of time. With or without said adrenaline rush, the body can only go so far. At some point, the body will simply stop.

[evil_erdlu]

So, you think there's no difference between say, the adrenaline I had pumping in my veins before my team played for the district title and say, the reaction that shuts off your mind and reduces you to pure instinct?

One way or other.. Adrenaline in blood, adrenaline doing the work. They are the same.. So.. yep.

Edited to add: Learned reflexes.. Spinal cord doing to work instead of brain.... A footballer can reach to the edge and play with a huge rush of adrenaline, using his learned reflexes to control the game, being even unaware of his surroundings in his high-brain functions. Let me tell before you try to dig deeper into this primal instict stuff, because every time I read it something inside me shouts "Super robot monkey team hyper force go!"

Additionally, I never claimed that's going to let you trek the desert.  I claimed it'd let you spring out of tiredness to try and evade a mega-predator or psychopath, you know, as per the thread's op.  I also just added a few grumbles like, how its inane you become sessile after walking for an hour with no additional circumstances.

So the predator will let you because you could suddenly charge with adrenaline instead of crumpling? I'm sure they'll pursue, they'll receive the excitement of the pursue - adrenaline. Why wouldn't the pursuer have adrenaline in its blood?

Additionally, to link it together for you.  The name I offered is an author.

So? I see it and raise: Tolkien. I win now? [Note: I managed to debug a buggy customer program moments ago. I'm cheerful and in a joking mood. But really. Just because an author said "Yes, in our semi-desert I can walk easily and without tiring.", I won't start to believe in Adrenaline Rush, the savior.]

Next, if you've got water when you're getting dehydrated, you can keep walking.  Considering we've been sending soldiers into the desert for more then a decade now, its amazing the plethora of studies that have been done there.

I should still insist a desert can be bothersome, with water, even if you sip thrice a minute.

And, as for your patronizing about seraches, yeah, wonder what that is?  

No, not scholar.google.com not regular google, not even the ever amazing(lol) Bing brings up studies on the effects of flight or fight in fatigued subjects.  I guessed based on my returns its not a wildly popular subject for research.  But I didn't spend more then two minutes looking, honestly, I'd rather use a superior resource.

I should repeat. Only read ones ending with 'edu'.. They are.. y'know.. universities. With libraries full of massive docs! Or you end up learning how 'adrenaline rush' warrior skill works in some H&S MUDs. Internet is a cesspool. One needs google-fu to go through all the junk.

[FantasyWriter]

Second, this 'adrenalin rush' idea would do what?  It would give you enough stamina to move a few rooms? 

There is one an instance of the code where this does happen (getting a sudden stam burst to keep you from dying).
It's saved me at least twice before. 

[RogueGunslinger]

That has to do with thirst code, not stamina code.

[spawnloser]

@Lizzie:
- Distance across, 250 miles.  Half the distance across, 125.  Average walking speed of an adult human, 6 miles an hour (real time).  2/3 of the day is 16 hours worth of travel time.  16*6=96 miles can be traveled in one day.  Sorry.  You're right, someone could only make it 96 of the 125 miles, 3/4 of the way.  Yeah, I don't think this is too bad, actually.  Calm down.

@FantasyWriter:
- Yes, but that wasn't getting your ass away from someone trying to kill you that should follow and continue to try to do so.  I'm sorry, but I'm against the 'adrenalin surge gives you stamina' idea because I can detect no other reason to have this than so that people can twink.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm in the line of reasoning that making the "non-tracking" beasts easier to flee away from (because that's the only thing this change would do) is bad as well.

[Cavaticus]

Average walking speed of an adult human, 6 miles an hour (real time). 

Six mph is actually well into competitive "racewalking" speeds. Average human walking speed across a flat and unhampered surface is closer to three.

[Synthesis]

Yeah, the hiking standard for Marine Corps infantry is 3 miles in an hour, minus a 10 minute rest every hour.  3 miles in 50 minutes is about 3.6 mph when you're moving.

But it's more like a series of 8mph sprints if you're stuck at the back of the column, heh.

Edited to add: this doesn't sound like much of a pace, but when you're in hilly terrain and packing 60+ lbs. of gear, 20 miles is brutal.

[evil_erdlu]

[joking, this has become way too serious]We were chatting in tinyMUD and an author agreed with me, too. See?

[0:39] fantasywriter: I agree with erdlu.

Yey!
[/joking, this has become way too serious]

[FantasyWriter]

Granted, I had just logged in and had no idea what I was agreeing with.

[original]

The way I see it, you are moving still even while to tired to flee. You are not "frozen" You are to tired to traverse the distance of the next room. I could go into how you got into this situation, since you obviously ran to almost no stam to get away from something, playing below 25% is a stamina rush in a way, but instead I will point out the room.

In a city you can flee quite a distance without running out of stamina, so it was a fair chase I think before you wore out.

In the desert, unable to move just means you can't make it to 'Nak, you can stumble down the side of the dune battling with that scrab chasing you, but you can't do it for a mile, league or whatever else we have.

Just my OP, but an adrenaline, stamina, duty, hunger, bloodlust, or whatever, rush should be roleplayed anytime you drop below 25..maybe 15%.

Now... offer me a perm, unrecoverable and noticeable penalty to my HP to push my body to damaging limits and get stamina to flee, and I'll jump on 100% (especially if you have to kick it in before losing say 50 or 25% of your HP, basically while you are strong enough to push yourself, and so people would seriously have to make that choice earlier then 4hp)

[spawnloser]

You all know that the whole walking speed thing was a derail, don't you?  Still, if you're walking slowly, you should be entering the commands slowly... if you're entering the commands quickly, you're walking quickly, so yeah, you aren't far from racewalking if you're spamwalking, in my eyes.

Back on topic, of course you're not sitting there immobile while in combat.  Just because you're able to move doesn't mean you're able to make it any distance, and that's what having 0 stamina in the desert means.  You aren't getting far enough to get away from anything... so let's keep it that way.  That means that idiots that spam away all their stamina and then get in combat get their just desserts.  Play smart to represent your characters' smarts.  The smart survive and those that don't take those precautions don't.  It's that simple.

[MarshallDFX]

James Bond can still flee, despite being stamina depleted.