Guild/Subguild skills

[RogueGunslinger]

Why are these so goddamn vague? Why can't it just tell me what skills I will get with each class or subclass? Why doesn't it tell me all the skills a sub-guild or guild will have? Hunter has wilderness sneak? I've played that sub-guild a hundred times, I could swear it never had wilderness sneak before. Also: There's no subguild with wilderness hide is there? Striking that I have no idea if there's even a way to start with wilderness hide without branching it... Why does Skill_skinning branch into Skill_bludgeoning-weapons? It really doesn't, but it might-as-fucking-well with the way some skills do actually branch. I understand there's some fun in figuring things out for yourself, but when they often make no sense, it just makes things frustating.

Seriously: Why can't this be made easier?

[Nyr]

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away--when Armageddon was just a wee little speck in your eye--it used to be a mostly hack and slash MUD.  Since then, it has grown into a RPI.  Since then, it has also been announced that we're going to eventually close down the game and release Armageddon Reborn, a game with its own codebase and all sorts of cool features.  We've asked that people post ideas or suggestions in the Armageddon Reborn forum for that new game.

If you just want to rant about how you hate guilds and subguilds and how vague skills are, you can do that here.  It just looks pretty empty all by itself, since all of those questions do have answers on the GDB.  If you would like to offer something constructive (like an alternative to what you hate), you can also do that here, bearing in mind that the more extensive the change, the less likely it'd be implemented in the current game. If you would like to offer something even more constructive, you could post such an alternative in the Armageddon Reborn forum, alongside these other past suggestions located here, here, here, here, here, and lots of other places on the Reborn forum.

[RogueGunslinger]

  I don't want to rant about guilds or subguilds, how they could be better, or what might make them more interesting for armageddon Reborn. I want someone to post a list of what skills each guild and sub-guild gets after character creation. I don't want to have to work through each different combination of guild/subguild by myself to figure this out over a hundred different characters, while using the vagueness that is the guild documentation as some sloppy codex.

You said this(my question) has been answered before on the forums. Well trust me, I've searched. I'm still frustrated. Still don't have and semblance of certainty in what I'm getting each time a pick a guild and I've been playing for two years. I'm sure newer players must run into some of the same frustrations.

My question was: Why is it still like this. Your answer is: Because no one's changed it. My proposition then, is to get a veteran or two and maybe even a staff member to collaborate a wee bit on what they are, and me and newbies forever on will be happy.

[Nyr]

If that's seriously what you want, no, that's not going to be allowed.  That's the answer you can find on the GDB.  Decipher what you can from the helpfiles and go from there.

[RogueGunslinger]

That IS what I want! But striking that I'd like to know why exactly I cant have it; back to my original question. Why is it so vague? Why can't we have a definitive list as to what skills the subguilds and guilds get at creation? I mean, We'll know as soon as the character is made, what's the benifit in making us wait? Making us choose our guilds skills unguided?

[FantasyWriter]

I would also like to see starter skills (not branched of course) shown plainly for '0' karma guilds.
There had to be at least half a dozen times that I picked the wrong subguild because of (IMO) confusing wording in the help files.

Hell, even just doing the subguild files would be a great help and leave the main guild's alone.

Other than an inconvenience to players, I see no reason that this shouldn't be done.

[Nyr]

Like I said, this is on the GDB, it just depends on where you look.

Please don't discuss skill trees on the GDB.

We don't want people discussing skill trees on the GDB, because

We don't answer questions about underlying skill system mechanics.  We find that withholding this information helps players to focus more on character development and roleplay.

However, you should be able to figure a lot out from the helpfiles.  If something is absolutely unclear, you can ask staff about it like this

Rebels are skilled in the guerilla arts, including the ability to move silently and to construct their own weapons as well as repair their armor.

I didn't see the harm in asking because it's fairly obvious for the other guilds with this skill but is this the citystyle or otherwise?

(or in the request tool), and get this kind of answer (perhaps)

I've updated the helpfile to be clearer on this:

Subguild Rebel                                                   (Character)

   Rebels are skilled in the guerilla arts, including the ability to move
silently in the wilderness, construct their own weapons, and repair their armor.

See Also:
   guilds, subguilds

The long and the short of it is that we don't reveal game mechanics.  You can learn what you need to know from helpfiles.

[RogueGunslinger]

I completely disagree.

It'd be nice to know what sorts of characters I can play by what sorts of skills they have. I'd like to know if I can play a certain combination without having to special-app for it first.

[RogueGunslinger]

Like I said, this is on the GDB, it just depends on where you look.

Please don't discuss skill trees on the GDB.

We don't want people discussing skill trees on the GDB, because

We don't answer questions about underlying skill system mechanics.  We find that withholding this information helps players to focus more on character development and roleplay.

However, you should be able to figure a lot out from the helpfiles.  If something is absolutely unclear, you can ask staff about it like this

I don't see how the knowledge, before character creation, of what skills you are going to have is going to affect whether or not you focus on RP or more coded aspects of the game once you're playing it. It's not an argument that makes much sense to me, really.

[Booya]

This is something that has always done my head in a bit as well.

I think it's only simple to decipher the guild helpfiles if you have experience with the game and/or a good head for code.

So why penalise the inexperienced? Or people who have played fewer characters? Or people who aren't the type of player who focuses on branching and skills? Or the disorganised who have been playing for years and simply can't remember all the ins and outs of the game?

Are you really saying it's crucial for the game that people to have spend time trawling the GDB, contacting the staff, or spending ages trying to guess what the help files mean?

I reckon people tend to want to know what skills they're going to get at character creation so they can properly flesh out their character. Especially as Sanvean once told me the subguild is meant to reflect your characters past before you started playing them.

It's not about wanting to know secrets of the code, the mechanics, or how things branch.

This is one of the strange inconsistencies of how the game is run that leaves me bemused.

[Durant]

Just thought I'd ask...

Why would it be shown exactly what is in a sub-guild when it isn't currently stated what is in a main guild?

Do you want every possible branched skill listed for every guild/sub-guild combo?

[FantasyWriter]

No.  Just _STARTING_ skills.  

PS - It's kinda like knowing what your character is capable of doing WHILE you create your character, not after your character is created and options unchangable.
   

[Booya]

Yup, just starting skills.

[RogueGunslinger]

Durant. I don't want to know any branched skills. I just want to know what skills my character will have when he starts the game. Why can't I know this? What does it hurt, when I'll know it as soon as the character is accepted anyways?

By knowing it sooner, rather than later, I can better document and back up my characters past with his coded abilities, thus allowing me to get into my character and enjoy him/her more.

[Nyr]

How would you propose changing it?

[FantasyWriter]

How would you propose changing it?

Code Select Expand

Guild Ranger   (Character)

A ranger possesses two primary abilities: to know where he/she is at all times and to stalk and kill prey (for food). Because of the emphasis on these two things, rangers are often greatly sought after as companions in the desert.

Ranger skills involve hunting persons or animals, exceptional powers of observation, a strong aptitude for archery, and some moderate skill with weapons. Exceptional rangers are able to move silently and remain unseen in the wilderness, detect sounds from far away, work with poisons, and parry enemy blows. Rangers are also often able to rescue friends from deadly situations, bandage serious wounds, and have a well-known rapport with animals, and can ride beasts of burden from the beginning.

While apparently an astonishing array of abilities, rangers are far poorer at combat than warriors, and their skills with poisons and healing powers are actually quite modest.

Rangers are usually the second easiest persons to employ, next to warriors. Any traveller would be a fool to neglect to take a ranger along as a guide, and good rangers can make large sums of money in this profession. In addition, rangers are excellent scouts and spies, able to eavesdrop without being noticed. If nothing else, rangers are superior hunters and can typically feed themselves in such places as the Grey Forest (q.v.), and can bring back skins of animals to sell.

See also:
   forage, Grey_Forest, guilds, skin

.....would become....

Code Select Expand

Guild Ranger   (Character)

A ranger possesses two primary abilities: to know where he/she is at all times and to stalk and kill prey (for food). Because of the emphasis on these two things, rangers are often greatly sought after as companions in the desert.

Ranger skills involve hunting persons or animals, exceptional powers of observation, a strong aptitude for archery, and some moderate skill with weapons. Exceptional rangers are able to move silently and remain unseen in the wilderness, detect sounds from far away, work with poisons, and parry enemy blows. Rangers are also often able to rescue friends from deadly situations, bandage serious wounds, and have a well-known rapport with animals, and can ride beasts of burden from the beginning.

While apparently an astonishing array of abilities, rangers are far poorer at combat than warriors, and their skills with poisons and healing powers are actually quite modest.

Rangers are usually the second easiest persons to employ, next to warriors. Any traveller would be a fool to neglect to take a ranger along as a guide, and good rangers can make large sums of money in this profession. In addition, rangers are excellent scouts and spies, able to eavesdrop without being noticed. If nothing else, rangers are superior hunters and can typically feed themselves in such places as the Grey Forest (q.v.), and can bring back skins of animals to sell.

See also:
   forage, Grey_Forest, guilds, skin, legolas_eyes, aragorn_ears, gimli_weapon, gollum_get_the_feck_out_of_here

Heh, I just noticed that -some- of the starter skills ARE ALREADY LISTED CLEARLY!

[Lizzie]

I'd take it a step further:

Guild Ranger     (Character)

A ranger possesses two primary abilities: to know where he/she is at all times and to stalk and kill prey (for food). (skill_ranger_vision) Because of the emphasis on these two things, rangers are often greatly sought after as companions in the desert.

Ranger skills involve hunting persons or animals (the elusive un-named skill that lets rangers be able to hunt), exceptional powers of observation (the you know what that lets you know whats y'know, notice shit), a strong aptitude for archery, (that mysterious skill we're not supposed to mention that lets rangers have a strong aptitude for archery) and some moderate skill with weapons (include all the appropriate, public help files involving specific weapon types that rangers can use). Exceptional rangers are able to move silently (that skill for the silent sneaky types) and remain unseen in the wilderness, (the skill that rangers use to hide behind bushes) detect sounds from far away, (the skill that lets rangers hear sounds from a distance, probably because they're listening) work with poisons, (skill_secret you know what skill) and parry enemy blows. (skill_no no don't say it, the staff will kill j00!!!111) Rangers are also often able to rescue friends from deadly situations, (skill_shhhhh) bandage serious wounds, (skill_the thing you do with that length of something) and have a well-known rapport with animals, (skill_not in help file) and can ride beasts of burden from the beginning. (skill_get on an animal and move in one direction or another)

While apparently an astonishing array of abilities, rangers are far poorer at combat than warriors, and their skills with poisons and healing powers are actually quite modest.

Rangers are usually the second easiest persons to employ, next to warriors. Any traveller would be a fool to neglect to take a ranger along as a guide, and good rangers can make large sums of money in this profession. In addition, rangers are excellent scouts and spies, able to eavesdrop without being noticed. If nothing else, rangers are superior hunters and can typically feed themselves in such places as the Grey Forest (q.v.), and can bring back skins of animals to sell. (skill_thing you would do to poke around the forest and find food to feed yourself)

See also:
    forage, Grey_Forest, guilds, skin

With all those references to (skill_skill) being hyperlinks to the related help files.

[RogueGunslinger]

* RogueGunslinger salivates.

[flurry]

Um...Lizzie, can't you propose a solution without explicitly doing what staff have said not to do?

I do think there is some merit to the idea of staff revealing the starting skills for subguilds and mundane guilds, though. It's entirely reasonable for a regular-application character to depend on a certain combination of skills (as compared to a concept that depends on überstats). Yet sometimes people end up having to guess and hope they get the right skills.

Generally, I like the fact that this game keeps game mechanics hidden. In this particular case though, I don't see the harm in a policy change.

[X-D]

What is funny is, I still remember my first PCs and I was able, by looking at the help files to figure out starting skills easily and 99% correct.

And the one time I thought I was wrong, I idea'd that this sub should get this skill and a minute later a staffer was like...oops, here ya go.

[Lizzie]

My above post has been edited to appeal to hypersensitive eyes (skill_scan).

[janeshephard]

The long and the short of it is that we don't reveal game mechanics.  You can learn what you need to know from helpfiles.

In fairness to the OP, he's asking you to list the skills and not reveal game mechanics. He's not asking for how sneak works for example. He's asking which guilds have sneak.

[FantasyWriter]

He's asking which guilds have [start with] sneak.

[jhunter]

Although I've never had any problem figuring it out and have never ended up with an inappropriate subguild, I don't see any good reason why the -starting- skills for each guild and subguild aren't clearly listed. It would make things a bit more newbie friendly if we did so. Being more vague about what branches down the road makes perfect sense, just not being up front and clear about what each starts with really does not.

Edit: Except for karma guilds. Those shouldn't be listed anywhere.

[Nyr]

You should be able to figure a lot out from the helpfiles.  If something is absolutely unclear, you can ask staff about it with the request tool.  This may prompt staff to update the helpfiles.

edit: tried to write more and zalanthas.org gave me the finger.

It's great to discuss policy changes, code changes, additions, etc--anything new that you want to see in the game.  Lots of new good stuff has come about because of it.

edit again:  ok, trying again after that last z.org burp:  I think it's pretty rare for a starting skill not to be mentioned in the helpfile for a 0 karma guild/subguild.  It may require a little thinking to figure out what the helpfile means, but nowhere near rocket science level.