Byn fees

[staggerlee]

I still maintain that negotiating contracts, establishing routes, getting larger payments or motivating recruits to work for less are all things that can be handled ic, by enterprising clan leaders.

People keep saying "But that would be difficult!" and yet somehow I fail to see how that's a fair rebuttal. It's a game, and most people that accept leadership roles in it understand that they might be taking on a challenge. The game would be awfully dull if all of their challenges were solved through oocly dictated rule changes.

EDIT: To be fair my clan leader is probably just 10000x awesomer than all of yours. Suckers.

[IntuitiveApathy]

Ideally, someone would just be running a semi-safe regular "bus" service with stops in the cities so that these nitty-gritty characters can still travel. But since we don't have that coded like it's planned to be in 2.ARM, if anything like that happens in the current game it's got to be run by PCs.

In actual fact, the Byn used to do this for a significant period of time.  It seemed to go away after a while, then it was revived again for a while.  Not sure if the Byn is still currently doing it.

There were regularly OOC scheduled times for the trip, twice a week.  The Byn never had a problem with Bynners wanting to go, so there was always plenty of security.  The problem was finding PC travellers that wanted to go.  I think this was partially due to PC's not wanting to have to pay what they saw as too much.  We would have the odd PC pay enough to make the trip worthwhile all by themselves.  Sometimes we had 2 or 3 PC's show up wanting to travel and the lower fees they wanted to pay, when put together, made up enough.  But usually it ended up being the Sergeant would just accept whatever the client wanted to pay and the trip was made worthwhile for the Byn by grebbing/trading.  Sometimes nobody showed up at all, and the entire trip was done to do the grebbing/trading (with the excuse/justification that there might be a client picked up in one of the stops on the way).

I don't know if the imms stopped the Byn Bus because of that or whether it petered out for other reasons, but I remember seeing it revived by player-initiative at least once.

[IntuitiveApathy]

A barrier for a stable? From my own knowledge, I don't believe it would be effected at all, I highly doubt there is anything PCs could do to make a Byn stable. But really, I never found issue with stabling fee's as I handled them as operating costs instead of usually making Bynners pay for em. I would record income vs expense where income would include Byn joining fee's, often we made more then enough profit to cover expenses. I made these as IC OOC reports to the imms(emails). The imms that ran the clan seemed to be fine with that.

Without going into it too much, there is one way in particular that a Byn leader could pay for stabling/water costs without passing them onto the PC's.  Only, that wasn't supposed to be done.  When I played a leader, the Byn joining fees were also untouchable.  If they've changed both or either of these, then I can certainly see how things would be much easier now.

[X-D]

Heh, Nothing is untouchable.

My last Byn sarge dipped into the entrance fees. Nobody said anything.

Of course he was bringing in large sums otherwise so, Who is going to complain about some skimming if that unit is bringing in 4 times the net of any other unit anyway?


Also, Byn sarges should remember that if you do an escort and deadhead back, take your time, pick up stuff on the way. Remember trade goods. Sure, the byn is not a merchant/trading clan. But there is no reason why a merc would not pick up a few northy items to make the trip back to nak a profit.

If my last Byn sarge was famous for anything it was how many times he called anything laying on the ground a pile of sid. Can't pass a pile of coin laying on the sand...everything sells.

[Jdr]

In the real world, everything has a price. Everything. Even gross things. ESPECIALLY gross things, if you'd believe it.

In Zalanthas I imagine it'd be x10.

[Gagula]

In the real world, everything has a price. Everything. Even gross things. ESPECIALLY gross things, if you'd believe it.

In Zalanthas I imagine it'd be x10.

Holding up his pile of inix dung, a Byn Runner ask you in sirish: "Wanna buy some miracle grew?"

[musashi]

The ooc issue I see is that there is no way to codedly differentiate between a one year byn graduate, a one year Tor academy graduate, and a hunter that's been beating up mobs in the wilderness for a year.

Sure there is. The hunter that's been beating up mobs in the wilderness for a year is probably going to be a way better fighter than the Tor academy graduate and the Byn graduate because he was codedly training consistantly.

[Salt Merchant]

Without going into it too much, there is one way in particular that a Byn leader could pay for stabling/water costs without passing them onto the PC's.  Only, that wasn't supposed to be done.  When I played a leader, the Byn joining fees were also untouchable.  If they've changed both or either of these, then I can certainly see how things would be much easier now.

Both your points are still true so far as I know.

[Rhyden]

What do you think the barriers are to doing it, Rhyden? And are any of those barriers likely to be affected by the changes to the current game environment?

I may have misunderstood the question. If you meant barriers to creating a Byn stable, I'd imagine it's just a matter of building said stable and getting thumbs up from staff.

As for Byn funds being untouchable? That's hogwash. I've dipped into the Byn account on several occasions for Byn-related needs. Just be sure to let staff know in your weekly updates if your Byn leader is being honest or dishonest about what they're doing with that sid.

[Zoltan]

As for Byn funds being untouchable? That's hogwash. I've dipped into the Byn account on several occasions for Byn-related needs. Just be sure to let staff know in your weekly updates if your Byn leader is being honest or dishonest about what they're doing with that sid.

Exactly. I had a Byn sergeant once who would occasionally take drinking money from the account to "grease the wheels" on his recruiting and contract-getting drives. By "grease the wheels" I mean "get myself drunk so I don't die from boredom."  He only did this occasionally and would take small-ish amounts, but I kept the staff updated on what exactly he was doing so a Captain or Lieutenant could catch him if it got out of hand. That's also good coin for occasionally paying group stable fees (if coin's really that tight) and buying mounts if you can get a group for a discount. Still, watching that account amount steadily continue to get massive... that was nice.

[Salt Merchant]

Different Sergeants, different perceptions then. My Sergeant only made one request to tap the Byn funds. It was to buy a spare mount, and it was denied. He also mistakingly deposited his first recruiting fee in the wrong place, so that his Byn deposits and recruiting tally didn't quite match, and I got a staff email asking about it.

In any case, regularly covering stable fees using the Byn funds would have resulted in the Byn funds being depleted rather than increasing. Not something that would be overlooked, in my opinion. So the profitability issue and Gimfalisette's question still stands.

[Zoltan]

Yeah, don't do it regularly. As things progressed, one of my Byn leader characters would just pay for things out of his own pocket.

[jstorrie]

The ooc issue I see is that there is no way to codedly differentiate between a one year byn graduate, a one year Tor academy graduate, and a hunter that's been beating up mobs in the wilderness for a year.

Sure there is. The hunter that's been beating up mobs in the wilderness for a year is probably going to be a way better fighter than the Tor academy graduate and the Byn graduate because he was codedly training consistantly.

Sort of. They'd certainly be far better at a number of skills that are practically untrainable in most clans. There are certain kinds of training that are hard to perform with unarmed combatants, though.

[HTX]

Yeah, don't do it regularly.

Or, alternatively, do it regularly and deal with the IC consequences later.

[musashi]

Different Sergeants, different perceptions then. My Sergeant only made one request to tap the Byn funds. It was to buy a spare mount, and it was denied. He also mistakingly deposited his first recruiting fee in the wrong place, so that his Byn deposits and recruiting tally didn't quite match, and I got a staff email asking about it.

In any case, regularly covering stable fees using the Byn funds would have resulted in the Byn funds being depleted rather than increasing. Not something that would be overlooked, in my opinion. So the profitability issue and Gimfalisette's question still stands.

I think the point to remember here is that when the staff tells you something "as the superior in your clan" ... that is not the staff telling you something as the staff making a rule you have to OOC'ly follow. It's them playing a character or representing one via email correspondence.

Also if the numbers don't add up. Cheat. Doctor them.

[Salt Merchant]

Also if the numbers don't add up. Cheat. Doctor them.

The question here is profitability versus affordability. If a Sergeant has to embezzle Byn funds consistently to make contracts seem sufficiently profitable, an absurd situation is created. It's better just not to take the contract if the client won't pay enough coin to make it profitable. The problem is the perception of what is a reasonable amount to pay.

I posted a couple of ideas (way) above for lowering the price while remaining profitable. Someone else has mentioned an alternative; let the independent clients gather together to travel in groups of two or three. That cuts the individual cost of the contract in two or more.

[musashi]

I was just talking about doctoring the numbers because your Byn Sergeant is a money grubbing uncring asshole of a human being and likes taking more money than his fair share entitles him to.

Staff has already pointed out how for under 400 coins you can make an escourt run WITH stabling fees AND two Troopers AND your extra Sergeant's cut and everyone who should be paid, gets paid.

Seems like the profit is there to be had. Just stop paying Runners, because they aren't supposed to be getting money anyway.

[Salt Merchant]

I'm just going to post this as clearly as I can possibly make it.

One Sergeant, three Troopers, five Runners.  500 coins less 160 in stable fees leaves 340 coins.

One share for the warband. One for the Lieutenant. Two for the Sergeant, one for each Trooper. That's a total of seven shares. 340 / 7 = 48 coins a share.

1. It hardly matters if the Sergeant adds one more share to split among the Runners. 340 / 8 = 42 coins a share.

2. The complaint is that 500 is too high a fee. Do the math for 250 instead of 500. That's 90 coins to be split in seven. 12 lousy coins a share for two days (remember the escort has to come back) of risk and hard riding.

Is the problem clear now, everyone? If not, I give up.

[HTX]

A sergeant, three troopers and five runners? Who would bring nine (!) mercenaries on for a simple escort contract? 

[Salt Merchant]

A sergeant, three troopers and five runners? Who would bring nine (!) mercenaries on for a simple escort contract?  

A Sergeant who is interested in running an active outfit and who understands that idle Runners just get into trouble out of boredom whereas Runners that get to do something are a lot more industrious and cheerful.

But it hardly matters if the Runners are omitted. Instead of 160 coins in stable fees, it would be 80. That's eighty divided by seven shares still, which is eleven extra coins a share. Hardly worth a sneeze.

[Cutthroat]

I never played a Byn Sergeant. Here is how I'd think if I were, though.

On simple Tuluk-to-Allanak escort missions (or any other kind really) where you want to bring every Bynner you can, just have everyone walk. Voila, you solve several problems at once:
- you don't pay so much on stable fees.
- the trip takes a good deal longer (but a realistic amount of time), and it's technically more dangerous.
- you have to pick places to rest, which actually takes a bit of strategy, and so it will be more interesting.
- the escorted feels like they're getting their money's worth, and tells their friends "A+ would buy again from this seller", which means he'll come back to you again, and others will use you too.
- grit harshness etc

The only caveat: invest in a tent or two. But it's like buying a washing machine vs. going to the laundromat. If you go to the laundromat (stable) for several years to wash your clothes (escort merchants), you will eventually pay more money than you ever would have to pay for a washing machine (tent).

[musashi]

Now throw in the loot gathered up from killing gith/raptor/whatever else you find along the way ... and the fact that you should have bought some stuff in Allanak that sells well in Luirs or Tuluk ... now do the same thing on the return trip ...

I'm not even throwing up the absolutely silly profit to be made if you tame a few choice northern critters and cattle haul them down to the south for the slaughter house ...

It seems to me like one or two indie merchants doing an obsidian/jewlery run from Allanak to Tuluk, followed by a silk/wood run from Tuluk back to Allanak could afford to pay the Byn at least 500 coins and still make a retarded profit for themselves when its all said and done.

It also seems to me like a Byn group could, without even the NEED for the escourt contract go make a killing for themselves escourting vNPCs up to the Tuluk and back if they then did all the stuff I mentioned above for fun as well.

So I still feel like Sergeants who can't make ends meet just aren't being resourceful enough.

You can make so much more than 500 coins on a round trip trading run to Tuluk and back ... if people are complaining that 500 coins is too much, then go find some friends and rub your pennies together.

[a strange shadow]

You guys have to remember that all of that takes TIME. It is hard to keep a lot of people organized and on the same schedule for more than an hour or two. When I played a Kuraci Sergeant, overnight multi-person trips out into the desert were rare for just that reason.

[musashi]

You guys have to remember that all of that takes TIME. It is hard to keep a lot of people organized and on the same schedule for more than an hour or two. When I played a Kuraci Sergeant, long multi-person trips out into the desert were rare for just that reason.

You can do things like that with only two or three people. During prime playing hours I don't think it's too hard to get two or three people together for a quick 2 hour run.

I admit that's just speculation though, based entirely off the fact that I've had characters who played off peak and still managed to get two or three people together to go hunting or what not nearly every day.

But if that takes too much time, adjust ... set up missions where you all go out and mine 'sid closer to home so that it only takes 30 minutes. Or go scrab hunting on behalf of some vnpc shop keeper who hired the Byn to restock him with chitin shells ... I mean, it seems like the people in this thread are making the assumption that the Byn is only there for war time fodder and escourt duty ... is that really the case?

[a strange shadow]

I believe that earlier in the thread someone posted that the docs suggest Byn aren't supposed to be doing greb-work.

I just felt compelled to mention the time constraints. Salt Merchant was talking about a pretty huge group of people.