Automagically hiding

[Kryos]

This one's going to be trouble, but I feel it needs to be discussed anyway. 

I think hide is a little too powerful in its current incarnation.  People can run up to your room, spam hide, and then start hammering in the backstab <you> or shoot <you> and you'll never have a chance of finding them.  This is situational, of course, it'd be much easier to sip into a crowd or duck into an alley within a city then it would be to just suddenly vanish in a low desert environment or small indoor room.  Yet, people do this all the time, and I find it obscene and immersion ruining.  I don't care if you're Ryu Hyabusa, unless you use mystical magic super-ninja-invisibility powers, you can't vanish in plain sight.  Its not mundanely possible.  Plus if you run/ride up close to someone in the desert, they are going to stare at you, more often then not, but because of code spam, this isn't possible.

Its more believable that someone would be sitting in preparation for you.  Camouflage and time to find a suitable location should give someone the edge they need to *possibly* pull off a successful ambush or evasion.  However, emoting that you throw a stone up in the air and then vanishing from a group of people who are all staring at you with deadly intent just isn't fun, good rp, or capable of maintaining my immersion.  Yet its done, because the code allows it.  Twinkage always happens if the code allows it.

So, what I purpose is a way of penalizing people's ability to hide based on their movement and environment, certainly more so then the game does now.  The more you've moved recently, the less likely you are to succeed.  Environments like small rooms should be neigh impossible to hide in, while more object-strewn areas should be much easier to prepare.  Hiding with people in same room should also be tremendously difficult, at best.  These kinds of changes would really help tone down the abusive, twinkish behavior I see from time to time, and make me a happier guy.

[Reiloth]

I say just increase the timer.

It allows for easy ambush, but not for hit and run backstabbings / arrowings.

I agree that the delay should vary depending on your enviroment / guild. If you are a ranger in a rocky barrens, should it be more or less difficult to hide, depending on your equipment +/-? How about Sandy Wastes? What about an assassin in the 'rinth? Should that make it easier to hide, or less, as they are just mostly abandoned alleys (Albeit with plenty of shadows).

Overall though...If the delay were increased by five seconds, I think it would cover those bases reasonably well.

[Uberskaapie]

I recognize and agree with your problem, but i'd prefer a non-coded solution.

Recently I've had a bunch of PC's mundanely hide and slink away in the middle of a conversation... To me that's twinking- not the code's fault. I guess the 'watch' command codedly helps out with this problem, but I started playing way before watch was added and I don't 'watch' every person I talk to.

re: hide appropriate rooms/situations- I'd just like to encourage players to approach their hide skill realistically.

[X-D]

On the other side of the arguement.

Your PC looked away, blinked, a half-giant walked between you, sand/sun/verrin hawk shit got in your eye, etc etc.

If you are not actively watching the PC and they manage to hide or, more commonly, sneak away then any number of things could be the reason.

Bottom line is, your PC was not paying as close attention as you think.

Use the watch command.

Also, rooms are coded differently for stealth, some have more cover then others. Some have a lot more, some have none.

[RogueGunslinger]

Make it room based in 2.arm Please!

[X-D]

It is now, I'm sure it will be in arm2.

[RogueGunslinger]

So all these people hiding in apartments are justified. Cool.

[Fathi]

However, emoting that you throw a stone up in the air and then vanishing from a group of people who are all staring at you with deadly intent just isn't fun, good rp, or capable of maintaining my immersion.  Yet its done, because the code allows it.  Twinkage always happens if the code allows it.

These kinds of changes would really help tone down the abusive, twinkish behavior I see from time to time, and make me a happier guy.

If you are seeing that much abusive behaviour, I think player complaints would be the best way to go about it rather than a GDB thread.

Personally, I think people's perceived problems with the hide skill are really problems with Arm's perception system. X-D's suggestions are really good ones and I think more use of the watch command would solve a lot of people's problems. I do think it's silly that there are some guilds who will literally never be able to see a hidden person. But I don't blame the hide skill for that.

My biggest problem with the hide skill is that some types of aggressive mobs can somehow remain hidden after my character knocks them unconscious. Now THAT's twinking. Friggin' NPCs.

[Synthesis]

Approach code.

[musashi]

Use the watch command.

I got to agree with X-D on this one. If you are watching the PC who is trying to hide, then you'll get a "So and so tries to slip into the shadows" type message when they attempt to use the skill, and odds are very good that you'll still have a bead on them even after they're hidden from everyone else who wasn't watching them.

It is a fantasy game so, if warriors can survive four brutal stabs to the neck without dieing, and crafters don't take months and months of work to produce one sword ... then I don't see why sneaky types need to be singled out for a realism check.

[brytta.leofa]

Here's a coded solution:

When you enter a room, everybody who's already there gets a bonus towards noticing if you try to hide.
If you're sneaking and they don't see you enter, they get no bonus.
The bonus is not as high as the bonus they would get from actually watching you.

[Good Gortok]

The watch solution would be fine if watch also applied to everyone who is following the target, and if it didn't generally just fail against anyone with maxed hide. Hide being one of the easiest skills to max, this poses the exact same problem as barrier vs. contact: watch is only really useful against new characters.

All these things could be solved with a little something called Rules of Engagement which another RPI has used to great results. As long as Armageddon stubbornly refuses to really discourage twinking, it will be common in any situation where people stand to gain from it. This is how it has always been. I think it's funny how you can get kudos sent to you just for not twinking, how these threads can come up every month, and how nothing is ever done about it. Refusal to incorporate the foundation for good roleplay will result in a shortage of good roleplay.

[Synthesis]

I just wish they'd put approach code and an intra-room grid in 2.Arm.

It would solve so many problems like this.  So much bitching averted.

[mansa]

Use watch

[X-D]

Watch works fine against high skill stealth PCs as well.

Assuming you have used the watch SKILL enough to be good enough. Otherwise, sure, your newb watch will only work on newb stealth.

Again, you only have yourself to blame for that one.

As to apartments, When I've had a stealthy type that went into apartments, it was very rare for me to find an apartment that did not have 1-4 pieces of built in furniture and then 1-10 chests/trunks/bins Then a dresser, winerack, racks, shelves, cupboards. Piles of logs, bones, branches, hides, shells, weapons, armor.

In fact, most apartments I've seen should automaticly have a chance of hiding any PC in them. And cause storm turn around for non-ranger PCs just from sheer clutter.

Now, if it is a single room apartment with nothing at all in it and the rdesc says, "This is a bare room with nothing at all in it and it is very well lit." Then by all means, wish up or file a complaint.

[Riev]

I believe the Watch skill is one of the hardest to bring up.

[Reiloth]

How does this account for automagickally hiding rangers with arrows of doom? Watch direction? Run around trying to see the dude circling you and 'watch' him before he hides again?

[Qzzrbl]

Yeah, thinking about it, I don't see how anything can have a chance of hiding in the wide-open desert without special equipment to help them blend in to the sand.....

But flattening down behind a small dune could make sense.

I dunno.

-shrug-

[mansa]

How does this account for automagickally hiding rangers with arrows of doom? Watch direction? Run around trying to see the dude circling you and 'watch' him before he hides again?

When you watch someone, it's hard for them to "disappear into the wilderness."

You can also be scanning, and then watch the hidden person.

As for the OP, rooms coded more differently than it already is?  Sure, sure.  

The more you've moved recently, the less likely you are to succeed.  

Already in existence.  Or do you mean, if you just entered a room, it takes a bit longer to hide?

I thought there is a delay already when you start walking, and also when you enter a room.

Or do you mean a longer delay for "skills" in general, like kill and steal?  
- say / talk / emote has no delay on it.
- does the delay work for walking to another room as well ?

Environments like small rooms should be neigh impossible to hide in, while more object-strewn areas should be much easier to prepare.

I know some no-hide "small" rooms and hallways

Hiding with people in same room should also be tremendously difficult, at best.  

I like this one!



Also, I always thought the delays on certain skills were also affected by the skill level the person has in it.

[RogueGunslinger]

If my pc is at the bar, they will hardly be looking at anything behind them. Same goes for any instance where focus is applied in a direction, or at an object. Not to mention in some of the very intricate and big rooms in the cities.

Hiding with people in same room should also be tremendously difficult, at best. 

I like this one!

[Rotten]

I believe the Watch skill is one of the hardest to bring up.

Wrong, wrong.

Warriors and people without scan should have the best watch skill.   Just watch ahead of you whenever traveling

[brytta.leofa]

How does this account for automagickally hiding rangers with arrows of doom? Watch direction? Run around trying to see the dude circling you and 'watch' him before he hides again?

Scan.  It's a ranger-eat-ranger world out there.

[jhunter]

I think it all works fine the way it is.

[musashi]

How does this account for automagickally hiding rangers with arrows of doom? Watch direction? Run around trying to see the dude circling you and 'watch' him before he hides again?

Scan.  It's a ranger-eat-ranger world out there.

If you're out in the wilds, you just stepped into a ranger's playground, and shouldn't be surprised at suddenly being their bitch.

[daedroug]

Yeah, thinking about it, I don't see how anything can have a chance of hiding in the wide-open desert without special equipment to help them blend in to the sand.....

But flattening down behind a small dune could make sense.

I dunno.

-shrug-

Considering how big desert rooms are supposed to be and considering that most rangers probably get brown sandcloth cloaks and what not, I would think it'd be quite easy to stay hidden. Unless you get lucky and happen to walk practically on top of them your likely not going to be able to tell the difference from a distance between a patch of sand and that brown cloak.

[X-D]

Indeed, and to tack on to what Musashi posted.

I know a lot of people hate not being able to do something. When I play a warrior, I hate not have ranger direction sense, I mean really, really hate it. And when I'm playing a ranger, I'd kill for SOME kind of defense against disarm. When I'm playing an assassin...well, there is lots of stuff I wish for then. And a mage...GAH, Everything.

Point is, many of you think that it is broken, and think the fix is to make everybody equal.  BORING.

Balance in arm has always been that each class is the best at what they are supposed to do. I, and others like that balance.

I know that if I'm playing a ranger I have to use ranged stick and move tactics, I like that. If I'm playing a warrior I know that I have the best chance of getting in close and eating face then walking back out like nothing happened. I know that as an assassin its stealth, get in close and hope to fuck they die or run. That my burgler or pick pocket should avoid direct combat at all costs and my merchant should be crafting his ass off, making friends and getting enough coin and goods to have his friends kill off the people that threaton him.

I like the fact that if I'm playing a byn sarge I have to find PCs with certain skill sets to fill my unit, it helps with unit dynamics, RP and tactics.

This is the sort of balance that stops any one class from being all powerful or all the classes being worthless.

So leave the stealth alone, let the people play ninja PCs without smoke bombs. Let warriors be the disarm monsters, etc etc etc.

[jstorrie]

If you weren't >watching them then you weren't watching them. You looked away and they peaced out.

How does this account for automagickally hiding rangers with arrows of doom? Watch direction? Run around trying to see the dude circling you and 'watch' him before he hides again?

Either >ep shield or get the fuck outta there. You're being sniped by a hidden sniper, that's supposed to be incredibly difficult to deal with.

[Rhyden]

Great post X-D. I fully agree.

[ibusoe]

This one's going to be trouble, but I feel it needs to be discussed anyway. 

I think hide is a little too powerful in its current incarnation.  People can run up to your room, spam hide, and then start hammering in the backstab <you> or shoot <you> and you'll never have a chance of finding them.  This is situational, of course, it'd be much easier to sip into a crowd or duck into an alley within a city then it would be to just suddenly vanish in a low desert environment or small indoor room.  Yet, people do this all the time, and I find it obscene and immersion ruining.  I don't care if you're Ryu Hyabusa, unless you use mystical magic super-ninja-invisibility powers, you can't vanish in plain sight.  Its not mundanely possible.  Plus if you run/ride up close to someone in the desert, they are going to stare at you, more often then not, but because of code spam, this isn't possible.

Its more believable that someone would be sitting in preparation for you.  Camouflage and time to find a suitable location should give someone the edge they need to *possibly* pull off a successful ambush or evasion.  However, emoting that you throw a stone up in the air and then vanishing from a group of people who are all staring at you with deadly intent just isn't fun, good rp, or capable of maintaining my immersion.  Yet its done, because the code allows it.  Twinkage always happens if the code allows it.

So, what I purpose is a way of penalizing people's ability to hide based on their movement and environment, certainly more so then the game does now.  The more you've moved recently, the less likely you are to succeed.  Environments like small rooms should be neigh impossible to hide in, while more object-strewn areas should be much easier to prepare.  Hiding with people in same room should also be tremendously difficult, at best.  These kinds of changes would really help tone down the abusive, twinkish behavior I see from time to time, and make me a happier guy.

I disagree with the original post.