Subguild w/ Ranger 'Vision'

[brytta.leofa]

No subguild should get it.

The ability is quite powerful and if a subguild could get it then some main guilds that should never be allowed to have such a thing, if only for balance reasons, would.

I'm highly in favor of a subguild version being capped, if that's possible.  I don't want to be able to navigate through a flat-out howling sandstorm, just through the sort of bad weather routinely seen around Red Storm and even Allanak.

I don't see that capped ranger_navigation is really more powerful than capped archery or hunt or sap or sneak.  Rangers don't have any one overpowering, godlike skill (like backstab or disarm); they get a big grab bag of tricks.

Even if you pick guild warrior and subguild caravan guide, a ranger still has seven ways from Sunday to eat your lunch.  You've given up mounted combat and tracking and stealth and (early) archery and the ability to maintain a non-quit-safe base of operations.

Obviously 'gickers are a special case, but that's always true, and they're still mostly lacking critical things rangers get.

[musashi]

Rangers don't have any one overpowering, godlike skill (like backstab or disarm); they get a big grab bag of tricks.

Just to be picky ... I'm sure anyone who's ever been hit with a skilled ranger's arrow from a room away would argue strongly about them not having a godlike skill. 

[FuSoYa]

Rangers don't have any one overpowering, godlike skill (like backstab or disarm); they get a big grab bag of tricks.

Just to be picky ... I'm sure anyone who's ever been hit with a skilled ranger's arrow from a room away would argue strongly about them not having a godlike skill. 

Hahah... those were my thoughts exactly.

Brandon

[brytta.leofa]

Just to be picky ... I'm sure anyone who's ever been hit with a skilled ranger's arrow from a room away would argue strongly about them not having a godlike skill. 

Dude, don't get me started.      ...However, archery is available to warriors and at least two subguilds, though perhaps not at the same level.

[Kryos]

More to the point of op, yes, Caravan + storm walking all the way.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I find it annoying to no end that human tribals have to take that subguild in order to be a tribal while desert elves are free to subguild whatever they want ...

Not so. In fact, if you have a human tribal concept and you'd like them to be clanned, you email the immortals about it and they will set you up with bendune, tribal accent, and coded access to the camp that your pc is from. (At least as far as Al'Seik, Jul Tavan, and Arabet. It is -not- true of the Benjari who have no tents. You must choose nomad for a benjari concept.)

In fact, out of 22 pcs so far, I've had 3 seperate clanned human tribals, none of which had a nomad subguild. Nomad subguild is for those who have tribal or nomadic backgrounds but no tribe or stomping grounds of their own.

And just to be the first to disagree with the OP, I have to say I'm not sure that caravan guides need the ability either, mostly because, unless I'm mistaken (and hey I very well may be!) guiding a caravan (wagon, argosy, yargosy, what have you) takes place inside the transport in the pilot's chamber, safe from the worries of the storm outside, doesn't it? It seems to me like they can already pilot a transport through a sandstorm because of that ... and if their primary method of weathering the storm has always been to be safe and snug inside a pilot's deck, then I can see them being turned upside down when caught in the storm with only a facewrap between them.

Touche. That's a strong arguement.

[jhunter]

And just to be the first to disagree with the OP, I have to say I'm not sure that caravan guides need the ability either, mostly because, unless I'm mistaken (and hey I very well may be!) guiding a caravan (wagon, argosy, yargosy, what have you) takes place inside the transport in the pilot's chamber, safe from the worries of the storm outside, doesn't it? It seems to me like they can already pilot a transport through a sandstorm because of that ... and if their primary method of weathering the storm has always been to be safe and snug inside a pilot's deck, then I can see them being turned upside down when caught in the storm with only a facewrap between them.

Guiding a caravan could be as you described. It also is leading the way for another wagon driver, etc. Which is why it does make sense for them to have the ability.

From the documentation:

Caravan guides are skilled in desert travel, whether it be on a mount or piloting a wagon. They are skilled in assessing goods, and most have learned at least a smattering of the nomadic tongue.

[Gimfalisette]

A "caravan" does not necessarily mean a group that includes or is exclusive to a wagon. Most traveling groups in Zalanthas do not possess sizable wagons of any sort. A caravan is simply a group of travelers, often bearing goods. So a caravan guide's work does not necessarily take place in or with wagons; in fact, a caravan guide might conceivably never have driven a wagon at all.

[FantasyWriter]

A "caravan" does not necessarily mean a group that includes or is exclusive to a wagon.

[musashi]

Good counter point. I retract my statement.

[Twilight]

My support for this is grounded in history, of a sorts.

When I started playing this MUD, rangers had the ability to navigate sandstorms.  Sandstorms which turned around your character existed in exactly one area of the world, roughly the windy plains around Red Storm (and possibly the Silt Sea, I never explored it then).  Getting lost in a sandstorm did not exist in the rest of the world.

Thus, if you wanted to go to Red Storm, it was possible without a ranger, but much safer if you did have one.  This was the only area of the game I ever encountered this ability of the ranger being useful at that time.


Then the weather code went in.  It was then possible to get turned around wherever there was a strong enough storm.  The small advantage the ranger had suddenly turned into a huge advantage, and none of the other mundane guilds were given anything to help them.


Thus, on to my (limited) support.  I view this like skin.  Once upon a time, skin was not a skill.  It was an inherent ability of rangers, which other guilds were able to use to a lesser degree.  I would like to see the ranger ability to navigate a storm turned into a skill.  Lets say "navigate".  Like skin, a ranger would now have to work up their ability to get around in a sandstorm or in the dark.  As a skin, it could be given in limited form to other guilds/subguilds, as a form of trainable resistance.

It just would make sense to me people would adapt to storms.  We currently can't.  It would be nice to be able to, as part of character development, regardless of guild.

[Rotten]

I'm highly in favor of a subguild version being capped, if that's possible.  I don't want to be able to navigate through a flat-out howling sandstorm, just through the sort of bad weather routinely seen around Red Storm and even Allanak.

I don't see that capped ranger_navigation is really more powerful than capped archery or hunt or sap or sneak.  Rangers don't have any one overpowering, godlike skill (like backstab or disarm); they get a big grab bag of tricks.

It's not a skill.  It's a property, like the ability to hitch two mounts.  You just can't cap it.

Other guilds are much more dangerous when in the same room, so I'm a lot less keen on giving them the immunity.

Rangers, at least, need to pop their head up before shooting.

[brytta.leofa]

It's not a skill.  It's a property, like the ability to hitch two mounts.  You just can't cap it.

I doubt that it would be difficult to add weather severity and subguild to the check, if staff want to do this.

[jmordetsky]

Rangers don't have any one overpowering, godlike skill (like backstab or disarm); they get a big grab bag of tricks.

Just to be picky ... I'm sure anyone who's ever been hit with a skilled ranger's arrow from a room away would argue strongly about them not having a godlike skill.  

Especially when they are a d-elf that can run/sneak hidden half-way across the known-world in a breath.

I am ALL for giving ranger navigate to a subguild. But make it a skill. Let me be bad at it a first like everything else. Rangers have a higher start + and a higher cap.

As an aside - I'm also all for taking away quit restrictions. Let me quit where I f-ing please. Give me coded ramifications for quitting in the desert based on my skill level.

skill_storm_navigate
skill_wilderness_quit

I till this day - it's been like 2 years since this debate started - can't see any objective reason based in balancing or realism to support these not being skills available in 1 more subs. Even at low levels + caps.

We have a blind fighting skill....This can be done.

Pls?

[musashi]

skill_wilderness_quit

I think quitting out of the game is an OOC construct and has no place as an IC skill. When you have to quit, you you should be able to quit. I'm honestly not even in favor of the delay post-combat that prevents you from quitting. I feel like if someone you were trying to kill really twinks out and flee/quits on you ... player complaint.

[RogueGunslinger]

skill_wilderness_quit

I think quitting out of the game is an OOC construct and has no place as an IC skill. When you have to quit, you you should be able to quit. I'm honestly not even in favor of the delay post-combat that prevents you from quitting. I feel like if someone you were trying to kill really twinks out and flee/quits on you ... player complaint.

[AmandaGreathouse]

skill_wilderness_quit

I think quitting out of the game is an OOC construct and has no place as an IC skill. When you have to quit, you you should be able to quit. I'm honestly not even in favor of the delay post-combat that prevents you from quitting. I feel like if someone you were trying to kill really twinks out and flee/quits on you ... player complaint.

Thirded.

[LauraMars]

skill_wilderness_quit

I think quitting out of the game is an OOC construct and has no place as an IC skill. When you have to quit, you you should be able to quit. I'm honestly not even in favor of the delay post-combat that prevents you from quitting. I feel like if someone you were trying to kill really twinks out and flee/quits on you ... player complaint.

Thirded.

Fourthed.

[Qzzrbl]

True, but then everyone who flees from combat, finds a good hiding spot, and throws up a barrier could have a player complaint held against them.

[musashi]

True, but then everyone who flees from combat, finds a good hiding spot, and throws up a barrier could have a player complaint held against them.

To which I hope staff could see the full situation of, and not hold it against the player.

[number13]

I'm honestly not even in favor of the delay post-combat that prevents you from quitting. I feel like if someone you were trying to kill really twinks out and flee/quits on you ... player complaint.

That would be constantly abused.  People will quit out of combat with mobs and PCs alike, all the time. Some desperate thoughts go through the mind when you are about to lose a favorite character.

I am in favor of caravan guide gaining the ability to actually guide a caravan, and scavenger (which is sort of weak-sauce as it stands) getting food forage.

[jmordetsky]

skill_wilderness_quit

I think quitting out of the game is an OOC construct and has no place as an IC skill. When you have to quit, you you should be able to quit. I'm honestly not even in favor of the delay post-combat that prevents you from quitting. I feel like if someone you were trying to kill really twinks out and flee/quits on you ... player complaint.

Thirded.

Fourthed.

I actually feel the same way, but making penalties for quitting int he wilds associated with your time trying to survive out there is a reasonable concession to the "omg we can't let you quit any where it will bleed the cities of players and ruin game balance" contingent. I'd be willing to sacrifice this for the ability to quit.

[hyzhenhok]

What we need is:

>quit
But you're too excited to leave just yet!

>quit now
You will quit the game in 5 minutes, unless something interrupts you.
...
...
Thanks for playing!

[Cavaticus]

>quit now
You will quit the game in 5 minutes, unless something interrupts you.
...
...
Thanks for playing!

Neat.

[Voular]

Quitting out anywhere would be awesome, indeed. Sixthed, or whatever it is.