Me, Ginka, Karma, and Existentialism

[Kevo]

I've been playing Arm for about 9 years, and I believe I've had over 200 chars approximately. During the first years of our relationship, whenever my char died, and it was one that I thought was full of potential, I would leave armageddon for nearly a month or two. Only problem with that was I would forget my password, (because at the time, I hadn't realized that PASSWORD is always the best password), and I would have to make a new account.

For almost a decade, I've been wanting more karma, so I could play roles (classes, because, frankly, that's what they are) that I was interested in when others grew monotonous or tedious, and I always wondered what the problem was. Was I not roleplaying well enough for the staff? I, like everyone else didn't get massive amounts of feedback, or criticisms on my chars. Of course, staff to player ratio makes this nearly impossible. Did I display untrustworthy characteristics? If I didn't know what they were, it doesn't really matter, does it? Perhaps it was that none of my chars have lived past the 10 days played mark or I sometimes (okay, most of the time) play chars who hallucinate, or have multiple personalities, or any numbers of neuroses?  None of this was truly a really big matter until, Arm 2 was announced.

I've been with Ginka longer than my wife, and while I've cheated on Ginka, yes, I love her. I have truly spent more than half my life playing this game, my various jobs have been spent with me daydreaming about what my char is to do next, or how they feel about a certain person, or idea....And now, she's going to be gone. Which brings into question many of my feelings about Ginka. Why doesn't she trust me with certain experiences, when she trusts other, (Karma)? How come, when I ask her to share a special, although unusual moment with me, can't she let go of her fears, (special apps)? Now, with her life coming to an unforeseeable end, when all the times I have spent with her, and all the fun we've had, tears we've shed, and deaths we've pulled through will only be documented in my journal (logs I've kept), I must finally come to terms with our relationship, and it's uniqueness.

I've started taking risks with her, spicing up the dulls moments, playing out things I think others might not understand, and even if the staff wonders what the hell I'm doing, I know who my char is, and I don't claim to know all about the other chars, but I keep it IC. As far as Karma goes, ginka, if in the end, you still don't truly, fully trust me.....it's okay, I still trust you.

Maybe I've played crazy ass concepts that threw caution to the wind because I, myself, cannot. Maybe I've lived out strange, sexual scenarios because I could never summon the courage, or moral relativity to do these things in RL. Maybe I haven't typed out every thought my char had, or used feel for everyone on of his emotions, leaving the staff up there wondering, "Wtf mate". Maybe I avoid posting on the GDB like a plague because only as I newbie did I realize while my banter is not understood, my jokes not responded to, and insights go neither questioned nor validated, this is the only place where I can find people who truly know arm like I do. That can fully understand the relationship I have (I guess, anyone ever retro-fit a fleshlight into their usb so they actually can type with two hands?) with this game. Maybe I've done all these things, in the end, it doesn't matter, does it? Not truly, maybe for a little while, people will care, but in the end, my story was told, like all others, and it faded into the distance, like all others.

Arm 1, ginka......Zalanthas as I know it, even though you never fully trusted me, and we never did everything we could together, I will always hold you in my heart, and your world will continue on in my imagination. Since we only have a short time left, I vow to take risks with you I was afraid to before, I vow to make each second count as much as I can, and I promise, that I will never, ever forget the time we spent together. Here's to throwing caution to the wind, so we can ride it together into the distance.

(cue the Clint Mansell music as I walk down that snowy path)

[RogueGunslinger]

My advice: Play more clan roles. Attempt to stay alive for a decent period of time (I know this is the hard part). And keep consistent in your characters roleplay. Consistency stands out. Use think feel and make a lot of bios. 

[Kevo]

No, no, see, I've played clan roles, lots of them. I stay consistent in my char's roleplay (i do, what my char would do, what's the point in doing anything else?) I use think and feel more than I use emote. I make bios when I feel it's appropriate.


This post is not about wanting more karma, or wanting my special apps approved, or trying to get something out of arm that I haven't been getting. It's about coming to terms with things I may never get, and being okay with that. It's about playing my char to the fullest, when I know (or...am pretty certain) others won't understand what I'm doing. It's about finally having the courage to app a sorcerer with with OCD, and a peg leg, and not getting upset if I'm turned down. It's about making my time left with this incarnation of zalanthas what I want it to be, making it count, and enjoying every bit of it. If in the end, nothing matters, and no one will care that special app #456 was denied, or char #201 died with absolutely no rp, so what.....that means in the end, no one will care if I make a char who's Best Friend in the world is Vennant, and I roleplay getting free drinks while ignoring people at the bar. Or maybe my char DOES hallucinate, I'll do it whenever I feel they would, despite that Templar X is in the room, and will probably kill me.

This arm is gonna be gone soon, I don't care what people think about my roleplay because -I- know it's good, and I don't care if no one understands my chars, even after the thinks and feels I put in.

This post is all about liberating myself from the worries of failure, in an attempt to maximize the good times.

(btw, I have dibs on the OCD peg-legged sorcerer, AND Templar X)

[Cerelum]

I really enjoyed reading this post, I found it funny and well written.

If I had the power, I'd at least let you play a desert elf.

[Aaron Goulet]

Use think feel and make a lot of bios. 

I second this (not directed specifically at you, Kevo, I'm just momentarily hijacking this thread).  While the staff, being human* and all, cannot read our thoughts, they can certainly read your character's.  The above suggestions from RogueGunslinger are useful because they allow you to proactively express the why behind the what to any staff member who may be snooping in on you.  This is always a good practice, especially if your character's actions would not make any sense to the casual onlooker.

* I have no concrete sources to back up this statement.  I actually speculate that Olgaris is related to the Poopsmith, and Shalooonsh is the reincarnation of Cthulhu.

[Adiadochokinesis]

This arm is gonna be gone soon, I don't care what people think about my roleplay because -I- know it's good, and I don't care if no one understands my chars, even after the thinks and feels I put in

(btw, I have dibs on the OCD peg-legged sorcerer, AND Templar X)

This is where you're wrong, pilgrim.


Keep on fighting the good fight, Kevo.

[Aaron Goulet]

This is where you're wrong, pilgrim.


Keep on fighting the good fight, Kevo.

Okay, Three Dog. 

[Cerelum]

This is where you're wrong, pilgrim.


Keep on fighting the good fight, Kevo.

Okay, Three Dog. 

Fallout Quote, that's awesome.

[RogueGunslinger]

I confess, I don't do any of those things I suggested. 

[Gwoshi Cheese]

Maybe I've lived out strange, sexual scenarios because I could never summon the courage, or moral relativity to do these things in RL.

...

wat

[Kevo]

Maybe I've lived out strange, sexual scenarios because I could never summon the courage, or moral relativity to do these things in RL.

...

wat

No. I'm not Edom. I'm much, much worse.

[ibusoe]

+ 1

[spicemustflow]

Maybe I've lived out strange, sexual scenarios because I could never summon the courage, or moral relativity to do these things in RL.

...

wat

Wat wat? You don't do that?

Anyway, Kaboth. The scariest, creepiest motherfucker I met in arm. Well played, without giving off the impression of trying to hard. Fuck the karma, have fun playing what you want. If your other chars were on the same level you're really adding to the world.

[mansa]

Be a fuckin' scary character.

[Kevo]

Thank you, Mansa. I think I will do this.

And spice, I can't remember, but I really, really really hope it's been a RL year, otherwise, that's kind of out of line.

I really do, however, hope that I've added to the world. I'm pretty sure like damn near every veteran has met me and decided, A) hate that guy, B) Wha fuck? or C) What a strange, interesting role.

[spicemustflow]

Yeah, it was a rl year, don't be a pussy . And arm 1 isn't going anywhere soon, so have fun. But also I can see the problem you're having with special apps if complicated, weird characters are your thing. I mean, if anyone apped a mul who is prone to go berserk when he sees something green and in addition to that is colorblind and sees only green everywhere, well, no amount of karma and trust will help.

[ibusoe]

The original post speaks to a widespread problem.

Some players get a lot of attention, but some get very little staff support or attention.

Many players tend to assume that they're deliberately excluded, however I think that the converse is closer to the truth:

May players, even veteran players, are allowed to fall through the cracks.

I think that if this sort of problem were addressed, it would not only remediate the bottlenecks that many players develop in terms of buliding their own maturity, but also would prevent player leak to other MUD and reduce the incidence of misbehavior on the MUD.

Such a shame that we don't have any facility to make sure that people aren't left out.

[LoD]

I think that if this sort of problem were addressed, it would not only remediate the bottlenecks that many players develop in terms of buliding their own maturity, but also would prevent player leak to other MUD and reduce the incidence of misbehavior on the MUD.

Such a shame that we don't have any facility to make sure that people aren't left out.

Issues abound with a solution to this "problem".

• Not all players want/require Immteraction.
• Some players want/require more Immteraction than others to feel "included".
• Some players, due to a string of high-profile characters, get used to heavy Immteraction and come to expect it, and can sometimes feel purposefully ignored when the level of interaction decreases.
• Some players view Immteraction as "interference", where others view it as "attention".
• Some players are reactive, and more likely to feed off Immteraction compared to the more pro-active players.
• Some players receive Immteraction with results they might view as negative (i.e. they are executed, refused a promotion, demoted, ordered to perform an action they dislike, not provided with the answer they wanted, etc...) and feel that they are being unfairly targeted, or that Imms are "out to get them".

Creating a system that touches all of these players in the way and manner in which they wish to be treated and touched is likely an impossible task, especially with the Storyteller (most likely staff member to be interacting with you) and Player ratio.

What suggestions do people have for how to solve these many issues in a way that isn't currently being attempted?

-LoD

[mansa]

What suggestions do people have for how to solve these many issues in a way that isn't currently being attempted?

-LoD

A bigger policy change towards player creation, and putting the tools of "world modification" into the players hand.

Reposted idea of mine:

First is that we have shifted our role to supporting player actions rather than dictating them.

Since when?

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,34248.0.html
February 03, 2009

Staff will no longer be animating the 'big boss' and senior NPCs of the clans for report ins and general catch ups. When a player needs information from the higher ranks of the house this will, in general, be given via email.

Staff instead will be concentrating on facilitating the stories that players are creating. The overall goal is that gameplay happens at a level that is accessible to players, allowing them to feel a very real part of the action.

Another goal with the change is to move the focus of Storytellers from the administrative side of running clans, to the story oriented side. With a Highlord in charge of each group we hope that much of the admin work can be relieved and with dedicated HL's for each group decisions can get sign off at the team level.

The overall aim of this is to see STs out there animating every day, because they –want- to, to see plots and stories that reflect what players are interested in and want to achieve and staff supporting what you all are doing.

Now, the only thing they need to change is the policy about new items, new buildings, (as in, make more player created items / rooms / npcs) and shorten the length of time it takes to have stuff like this implemented, and it will be an even better game.


If it were me:

A) Players can create a new item in the game as long as:
i) It will be a 'common' item, and must have at least one NPC seller attached to it.
ii) One new item per RL month
iii) Players will not "own" such an item, and cannot take OOC steps to claim IC ownership over all types of items of this sort.

B) NPCs
i) A maximum of 2 Family NPCs, that can be 'orderable' but not for combat actions
a) This includes NOT guard <person> / assist, but can include guard <direction/item>
b) NPCs won't be ress'd when killed, and these will be noted.
ii) You can create an NPC once per 6 RL months after first noting the VNPC in game, using the BIO command to included the VNPC in game, and using the VNPC in arrange emotes with various items for 15 RL Weeks.
iii) For ever Family NPC, one common NPC must be written up, in any city.

C) Special Unique Items that aren't common still follow the 'Master Crafter' rules.

D) Rooms must be paid for, in obsidian coin, at approximately 10,000 coins per room in 'rinth/undertuluk, 40,000 coins per room in common tuluk/allanak, and in the tablelands must be SPECIAL CASE with specific immortals running the tribals.  Each room will be taken under consideration the political parties involved in each area of the game.
i) It takes 6 RL weeks to build one room, and the room descriptions will note that it is unfinished.
ii) It will take 18 RL weeks to have a complete room in a description matching the one sent in.
iii) Ownership / Clans using the room created will _NOT_ be associated with the player paying the cost, and will be a 'non-coded partner' unless 30 RL weeks pass.

E) Coded clans can newly exist, as long as a 'clan hall' has been paid for, plus 30 RL weeks


A change in policy for focusing on player lead stories is great, but when the stories the players want to do, won't be implemented, it doesn't do much good.  When you lay down an outline like above, people will try and do exactly it.

Let's say that there's an overwhelming plot to destroy New Red Storm Village.  The immortals have set markers for Player Interaction Points, so when they do A, B, and then C, the city gets destroyed.  The new 'ruins' is already written up.
- If I'm a player, living in red storm, and I want to create a shop that sells pretty dresses made of gith skins, I should have the oppertunity to start creating a shop, and spending my time creating a shop - even though RSV will be destroyed two days after my shop gets into the game.

At least, from the above example, I can say - I got something implemented into the game, even though it got destoryed.  I worked hard, and I had satisifaction in creating something.  It got destroyed, but that doesn't matter.  It's not about 'winning' or creating something that lasts forever.  It's about the journey and the storylines along the way.   

Afterall, this is a text medium we are using, and the world can be updated in less than one second.  Delaying implementation of items shouldn't be a year real life.

[Aaron Goulet]

The original post speaks to a widespread problem.

Some players get a lot of attention, but some get very little staff support or attention.

Many players tend to assume that they're deliberately excluded, however I think that the converse is closer to the truth:

May players, even veteran players, are allowed to fall through the cracks.

I think that if this sort of problem were addressed, it would not only remediate the bottlenecks that many players develop in terms of buliding their own maturity, but also would prevent player leak to other MUD and reduce the incidence of misbehavior on the MUD.

Such a shame that we don't have any facility to make sure that people aren't left out.

We do have a facility to do just this: communication.  I find that 90% of the time someone has a problem with something (valid or not), they do not email the staff about it due to some irrational fear of judgment, or in-game repercussions.  In fact, sometimes people would sooner gripe about their problem on the GDB than voice their displeasure about x and y by emailing the staff, who are usually the only people capable of fixing the problem (or are at least eligible to dispense some helpful advice on how to do so yourself).

As someone pointed out before, the staff are few in comparison to the amount of players, so how are they to know who needs perhaps a little more attention due to factors x and y?  The answer is communication.

NOTE: Regarding both the request tool and emailing the staff, I have found that you will usually get more mileage out of your query if you are able to cover all of the important points while being as succinct as possible.  Going through the appropriate channels (as outlined here) helps, as well.  Also, ensure to be polite and respectful, remembering that the staff are volunteering their time to assist you.

NOTE #2: The staff doesn't necessarily have the time or the numbers to "keep an ear to the ground".  Thus, it is entirely likely that the we (the players) will figure out when certain things aren't working as well as they could be (both code-wise and process-wise) before the staff is able to.  Don't be afraid to submit feedback, so long as you are following the guidelines.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Mansa, I really do wish this was the policy.

[mansa]

Karma gets you easier access to special classes.

You get noticed by attempting to accomplish things in a realistic way in the game, but trying to get things implemented is a problem that shouldn't be as tough as it is now.

If you have an easier way to create things, you can accomplish more.

A policy that has a specific time limit that all players must abide to would prevent favourtism.
More people would get noticed when more people request to have an npc created / item created, rather than remaining quiet.

[mansa]

Ps.
the numbers I threw out there don't mean anything.  Its the intent of the policy, rather than the specific details of it.

[Aaron Goulet]

(A bunch of really nifty stuff.)

I <3 your suggestions!  While it isn't rendered impossible by the code (we all know this because it has been done before), I can see where staff workload might be an issue.

The thing is, it might be worth it because of this:

Let's say that there's an overwhelming plot to destroy New Red Storm Village.  The immortals have set markers for Player Interaction Points, so when they do A, B, and then C, the city gets destroyed.  The new 'ruins' is already written up.
- If I'm a player, living in red storm, and I want to create a shop that sells pretty dresses made of gith skins, I should have the oppertunity to start creating a shop, and spending my time creating a shop - even though RSV will be destroyed two days after my shop gets into the game.

At least, from the above example, I can say - I got something implemented into the game, even though it got destoryed.  I worked hard, and I had satisifaction in creating something.  It got destroyed, but that doesn't matter.  It's not about 'winning' or creating something that lasts forever.  It's about the journey and the storylines along the way.

In the examples given (and almost every example I can think of), plots and storylines will inevitably be created, because these tasks are nearly impossible for a single individual to undertake, and the journey would indeed be long.

[Krath]

Fuck Karma, it is overrated. Seriously.

[Jdr]

I've never focused on or cared about Karma. I get very focused on my immediate role though. Maybe a little too focused but I digress.

[LoD]

A bigger policy change towards player creation, and putting the tools of "world modification" into the players hand.

I don't see the connection between increased player options for item, room, and NPC creation and the plight represented in this thread of players that feel they aren't getting enough interaction from the Staff, or are feeling neglected.  I imagine a small subset of these disgruntled people are waiting on item requests, sdesc requests, or NPC requests, but the majority of them are likely not waiting on issues related to any of the ideas you've attached.

I can't conceive of a system that would ever allow arbitrary creation of objects, rooms, or NPC's for the game that didn't have to go through some kind of QA process by the Staff to make sure all of the fields are completed, values are correct, description is appropriate, etc...  And I can't imagine the overhead of submitted objects, nor the database swelling every month with players who submit their own special item because they want black leather wrapped about the hilt, or silver trim along the sleeve, or a purple dragon stitched into the sleeve of their tabard.

I think more realistic solutions for player control over rooms and items are to create a system that allows for temporary changes to rented room names, customizable clothing options (e.g. material, color, design, trim, etc...), and customizable brands/marks that could be added to existing objects.  I could also potentially get behind the ability to create temporary (meaning codedly destroyable) dwellings as enterable objects granted you had enough raw materials, labor, and time.  This might allow someone to throw up a hovel, hut, stand, stage, tent, or similar such location within a room without having to affect/impact the more permanent background.

Code Select Expand


Amidst a Dusty Clearing [E]
Many bricks of hardened mud are here, stacked in a pile.
Several lengths of numit vine rope are here, coiled in a pile.
Many bundles of thatch are here, stacked against the wall.

>build hut
You can build a small, medium, or large hut.

>build hut small
A small hut requires 50 mud bricks, 25 lengths of numut vine, and 50 bundles of thatch.
There are 50 mud bricks, 25 lengths of numut vine, and 49 bundles of thatch in the area.

>drop bundle
You drop a bundle of thatch.

>build hut small
You begin constructing a small hut.

*Now, if assist were modified to construction, others could assist you in the construction to go more quickly.*

You finish assembling a small hut.

>look

Amidst a Dusty Clearing [E]
A small hut stands here, crafted from mud brick and thatch.

>enter hut
You enter a small hut.

A Small Hut [Leave]
  Crowded within the mudbrick walls of this tiny hut, the floor beneath you is covered in dirt and remnants of
shattered brick. Stretched overhead is a rooftop of woven thatch, bound tightly together with lengths of
sinewy numut vine rope.
  A small doorway in the south wall leads out.

>change room
You can alter either the room's name or the room's describer.

>change room name
You can alter the room's name to Hut, Dwelling, Shop, Home, or Hovel.

>change room name dwelling
You have changed the room name to Dwelling.

>change room describer
You can alter the room's describer to Small, Dusty, Cramped, Filthy, Clean, or Smelly.

>change room describer filthy.
You have changed the room describer to Filthy.

>look

A Filthy Dwelling [Leave]
  Crowded within the mudbrick walls of this tiny hut, the floor beneath you is covered in dirt and remnants of
shattered brick. Stretched overhead is a rooftop of woven thatch, bound tightly together with lengths of
sinewy numut vine rope.
  A small doorway in the south wall leads out.

>leave
You leave a filthy dwelling.

Amidst a Dusty Clearing [E]
A filthy dwelling stands here, crafted from mud brick and thatch.

With enough variation, I think players would find plenty of use for these pre-built, pre-designed structures to use throughout the given settlements and wilderness as they desired.  It also takes the pressure of the Staff to answer and judge requests, eliminating almost all of the overhead you would have in a more arbitrary system for design.

-LoD

[FantasyWriter]

LoD.... I just jizzed in my pants... thank you.

[Cerelum]

Fuck Karma, it is overrated. Seriously.

The one thing that sorta is strange and funny about Karma is this.

You still have to get the character approved, so even if I have 8 Karma and make a badass sorcerer, I still gotta sell the concept to staff, which makes me wonder.  Why bother with karma?

It would seem easier to me to just let folks send up whatever app, and just review it as per normal.

Now if Karma allowed me to just throw together an app and instantly play, I'd totally see the point, but it seems like more of a crowd control and to keep the extreme higher up staff members in control of who plays what and when.

I personally would rather see Storytellers and the like able to approve things of this manner rather then waiting on the select few, this would speed up app time and decrease frustration.

[Gimfalisette]

If you have the karma to make guild X, then the staff knows you are already trusted to play guild X and their approval process is easy and quick.

If you do not have the karma to play guild X, then staff must review your account in order to figure out whether or not they want to extend temporary trust so that you can play guild X. This is more difficult and not quick.

What you propose would dramatically slow down the approval process for all applications.

[Kevo]

The answer I've come up:

Fuck worrying. Assume everyone involved is trying their damndest, and has positive intentions.
App what I want, when I want. Send in updates, and emails, and feedback, when I want. Someone in staff thinks it's too much, or too little, or too anything, I'm sure they'll let me know. As for pretty much every other problem listed, I don't really run into that kind of stuff, so, it doesn't apply to me.

And as for saying fuck Karma? No, thank you. Karma represents = ability to play class A,B,C, and D. More than half the classes in the game. That's more than half the roles in the game. It's not like you actually have to do anything -specific- to get it. No one's saying, okay, you can't play a nilazi, untill you impress Gimf, and kill three carru. Since it takes no actual effort beyond what you normally should be doing, it's fine not to worry about, but to not care entirely is like saying, what? I can't have those grapes? Pfftt....fuck those grapes.

my two cents.

[Salt Merchant]

There's a great deal of similarity between all the karma classes anyhow.

In all these classes, you are despised by society and are kill-on-sight in many if not all places.

Effectively the same limited role with different powers.

[musashi]

Expect for muls and half-giants ...

[Yam]

Expect for muls and half-giants ...

Everybody loves half-giants.


Three year olds with clubs.

[musashi]

They kind of remind me of Bam Bam from the Flinstones.

[Synthesis]

Expect for muls and half-giants ...

Everybody loves half-giants.


Three year olds with clubs.

Are All Half-Giants Stupid?

Yes. The wisest of half-giants is probably no more clever than a rather dim-witted human. But it is important to understand what is meant by stupidity. Many people attribute stupidity falsely - for example, to primitive peoples or to children. Stupidity doesn't really describe either of these cases; ignorance or naivety are perhaps better words. So a half-giant is not like a child or a primitive humanoid, but rather, simply a very stupid person, although this is a much more subtle concept.

Similarly, speaking like a child is not the most appropriate way to portray a half-giant. Very young children often speak poorly because they have not grasped the proper situations to use words in. As mentioned above, half-giants are very attentive to such things. It will take them longer to figure it out than it would a human, but an adult half-giant understands most grammatical rules - especially the simple ones - but might slip up on such things as saying "an" rather than "a" before a word that begins with a vowel. These examples, while specific to speech, really illustrate how all of a half-giant's thought processes work.

In fact, everyone who wants to play a half-giant should go ahead and read that entire page.

[Yam]

Expect for muls and half-giants ...

Everybody loves half-giants.


Three year olds with clubs.

Are All Half-Giants Stupid?

Yes. The wisest of half-giants is probably no more clever than a rather dim-witted human. But it is important to understand what is meant by stupidity. Many people attribute stupidity falsely - for example, to primitive peoples or to children. Stupidity doesn't really describe either of these cases; ignorance or naivety are perhaps better words. So a half-giant is not like a child or a primitive humanoid, but rather, simply a very stupid person, although this is a much more subtle concept.

Similarly, speaking like a child is not the most appropriate way to portray a half-giant. Very young children often speak poorly because they have not grasped the proper situations to use words in. As mentioned above, half-giants are very attentive to such things. It will take them longer to figure it out than it would a human, but an adult half-giant understands most grammatical rules - especially the simple ones - but might slip up on such things as saying "an" rather than "a" before a word that begins with a vowel. These examples, while specific to speech, really illustrate how all of a half-giant's thought processes work.

In fact, everyone who wants to play a half-giant should go ahead and read that entire page.

Three year olds are articulate. They don't say "Me want banana.". They usually say, "I want a banana!" I think those docs were written by someone who doesn't spend a lot of time around children, since half-giants are described as having very child-like responses to things. They mimic their leaders, they're gullible, and they lack the ability to reason far into the future. Those are all exhibited by young children who can, for lack of wisdom, be as eloquent as most adults.

Let's get this weird train back on the tracks.

[spicemustflow]

Half giants should be above sorcerers in karma. Enormously destructive and have every excuse to be. I hate and dread them both IC and OOC.

[FuSoYa]

Half giants should be above sorcerers in karma. Enormously destructive and have every excuse to be. I hate and dread them both IC and OOC.

I think that's flawed.

One of the reasons being how many half-giants are there in the population of the Known?  Now how many sorcerer's?

Just one reason.

Brandon

P.S.  I have NO intention of ever playing a HG and nothing about the class or play style seems appealing to me.  That being said I love a well-played one.

[Cutthroat]

The answer I've come up:

Fuck worrying. Assume everyone involved is trying their damndest, and has positive intentions.
App what I want, when I want. Send in updates, and emails, and feedback, when I want. Someone in staff thinks it's too much, or too little, or too anything, I'm sure they'll let me know. As for pretty much every other problem listed, I don't really run into that kind of stuff, so, it doesn't apply to me.

And as for saying fuck Karma? No, thank you. Karma represents = ability to play class A,B,C, and D. More than half the classes in the game. That's more than half the roles in the game. It's not like you actually have to do anything -specific- to get it. No one's saying, okay, you can't play a nilazi, untill you impress Gimf, and kill three carru. Since it takes no actual effort beyond what you normally should be doing, it's fine not to worry about, but to not care entirely is like saying, what? I can't have those grapes? Pfftt....fuck those grapes.

my two cents.

Good post.

The best approach to Arm is a laid-back one, IMO. It's alright to not worry about karma, because you're just trying to have fun. You'll get it automatically anyway, or when you request your notes every once in a while, as long as you're doing what everyone's supposed to - play with respect to the documentation and other players.

[ianmartin]

Screw Karma, whatever the hell that is.  I haven't gotten one Karma EVER.  Who misses what you never had before.  No worries mate.  BTW, Half-Giant merchants or thieves are not the best concepts.

[Gimfalisette]

I wish there was more tempting variety in mundane roles than in karma roles. I have some karma and I do use it on occasion to taste the variety of the game, but my own playing mindset is more mundane than fantastical--so I really long for there to be more usefulness and options with some of the mundane stuff. I think there will be in 2.ARM.

IMO, reasons players want karma include, in no particular order:

-- Desire for more coded power
-- Desire to try new things
-- Desire to be able to do X, which is perceived as being difficult or impossible to achieve with a mundane guild or basic race
-- Desire to participate in plots which may be non-mundane
-- A feeling of validation and worth from the staff for their play / contribution
-- A reluctance to special app for stuff
-- Enjoyment of the magick system itself
-- Desire for faster coded advancement with a karma PC
-- An orientation toward the fantastical (player type is more fantasy than sci-fi) makes magick PCs more attractive
-- Desire to learn about the game overall
-- Drive to "win," both by having karma and by using it
-- Exploration of the psyche of a non-mundane or non-human character type

There's undoubtedly more reasons as well, but I think I've probably listed the most important. Most of these reasons are perfectly fine. None of them is necessarily destructive to the game.

But yeah, overall, it's better to stop worrying about karma, stop playing for karma. Personally, I play for the enjoyment of myself and those around me, and hopefully to contribute to the experience of other players as a whole. (Plots etc.) Karma comes in weird and unpredictable ways and at odd intervals, and once I had to ask for some after not getting any for a long time. Also, I very much do not believe that karma has anything to do with whether the imms like me (some do, some don't) or whether they like what I'm doing in game (probably some do, and most just don't give a crap about me in particular).

[LoD]

The answer I've come up:

Fuck worrying. Assume everyone involved is trying their damndest, and has positive intentions.
App what I want, when I want. Send in updates, and emails, and feedback, when I want. Someone in staff thinks it's too much, or too little, or too anything, I'm sure they'll let me know. As for pretty much every other problem listed, I don't really run into that kind of stuff, so, it doesn't apply to me.

And as for saying fuck Karma? No, thank you. Karma represents = ability to play class A,B,C, and D. More than half the classes in the game. That's more than half the roles in the game. It's not like you actually have to do anything -specific- to get it. No one's saying, okay, you can't play a nilazi, untill you impress Gimf, and kill three carru. Since it takes no actual effort beyond what you normally should be doing, it's fine not to worry about, but to not care entirely is like saying, what? I can't have those grapes? Pfftt....fuck those grapes.

my two cents.

I wanted to provide an observation for you, perhaps to act as a mirror for what others (including Staff members) may also see.

Simply in reading your posts, I've interpreted or inferred a variety of qualities that may or may not be accurate about you.  The tone of your writing feels rushed, angst-ridden, dramatic, hypersensitive, frenzied, and swift to action.  If these qualities bleed into your RP, your correspondence with staff, or your decision-making in game, it could be a potential reason why you haven't seen more karma during your tenure with the game.  Your demeanor and activity may be the kind that doesn't instill the type of trust in a player that convinces the Staff that they won't consistently make rash decisions, will take the time to read and adhere to documentation, or won't become impatient with a limited or restricted role (many of the karma-related roles are restricted in some capacity, whether it be mentally, socially, or culturally.)

You also mention having 200 characters in a span of 9 years.  Now, I don't know anything about you or your characters, but that averages out to 16.42 RL days between characters -- about 2 RL weeks.  For all I know, you may have had several 30+ day characters, but that would make all of the rest exist for an even shorter period of time.  This may also represent a problem/obstacle in your quest to karma.  Two weeks is pretty short amount of time for the staff to determine how you handle the same character through a variety of situations; It's important for them to be able to see you develop as a character at rest, under duress, when entrusted with sensitive information, when given chances to twink out or exploit a situation, when given some responsibility, etc...

What they -would- be able to glean from someone who averaged 2-week characters is that the person may have issues with being bound in one place too long, or embodying one role too long.  And if they had issues keeping engaged, or made decisions that frequently brought about their death, they might form an opinion about how you may treat roles that require a higher degree of self-restraint, patience, and consideration for other players.  Many of the higher karma roles have the potential to do great harm to others, especially if they are allowed to perform borderline actions backed up by sketchy rationalizations or paper thin reasoning.

I understand that you weren't fishing for advice in this thread, but simply stating you were "OK" with the current state of things.  However, it's apparent to me that you would still enjoy having the opportunity to explore these other options.  If that's true, my suggestion would be to consider the points above and honestly evaluate whether any of them ring true.  If they do, then you may want to consider how your past has brought you to this point, and what possible changes you could make to slightly alter its course.

If you want, or ever need, help or advice, feel free to contact me or any of the other Helpers.  Some may feel that Helpers are meant to assist newbies, but I know I've taken away many good lessons from having discussions with other veteran players, simply to view old issues from a unique and fresh perspective that I may not have considered.

-LoD

[Pale Horse]

But yeah, overall, it's better to stop worrying about karma, stop playing for karma. Personally, I play for the enjoyment of myself and those around me, and hopefully to contribute to the experience of other players as a whole. (Plots etc.) Karma comes in weird and unpredictable ways and at odd intervals, and once I had to ask for some after not getting any for a long time. Also, I very much do not believe that karma has anything to do with whether the imms like me (some do, some don't) or whether they like what I'm doing in game (probably some do, and most just don't give a crap about me in particular).

One of the notes attached to my account, concerning earlier Karma, said in effect that I'd "earned" it, simply by sticking around for so long and playing to the documentation.  That's it.  I had knowledge of the game world and it's cultures, and tried to role-play my characters according to them.  No "staff liked me" kinda of things.

Also, concerning Karma, while I love having it, it's more for one of the reasons that Gimf mentioned above.  I like trying new things, and I like having options open to me.  In this case, these extra options come with some responsibilities, simply because this is a Staff/Player monitored game, and there are expectations attached to each new karma role.  I haven't found any of these expectations to be "restrictive", per say, as I'm one of those that doesn't chafe at rules and laws (for the most part).  The higher up you go in karma, the more expectations are attached, which can give a sense of restriction to some.  If this isn't the type of thing you like, then perhaps sticking with mundanes and standard races would prove to be more enjoyable for you.

For someone who likes socializing with their characters as much as I do, I find that while I love the power potential of the magicker roles and strong races like muls and half-giants, I find "mundanes", both guild and race, to be much "easier" to roll with.

[Gimfalisette]

What LoD says about looking at your playstyle and attempting to learn and adjust is very valuable. It's not that there is just one "best" playstyle for ARM; there are lots of ways to potentially contribute to a great game. But there are a handful of playing tics that will cause staff and other players to feel uneasy and untrusting...and as karma is a measure of trust, it's a good idea to work on eliminating those tics if you want to earn karma.

Simply saying "screw it" won't make those tics go away, and therefore will not eventually lead to karma. If you've (general you) played X years and you don't have much karma (or as much karma as you'd like), then it may be time to really evaluate why that is and what you'd need to change if you want to earn karma.

Part of the problem is that there is not much feedback from the staff about what we could do individually to improve. I don't know that there is a solution to that. I think we may need to rely on each other to figure out what we can improve. Perhaps asking other players who have played closely with us would be a good place to start.

[Cerelum]

I'll add my two cents in, due to a response to a special app I recieved earlier today,

I've said it time and time again, I'm not a perfect fellow, I make mistakes all the time and have even made mistakes that meant quick deaths to my cherished characters really quickly out the gate.  So don't think I'm trying to be an elitest and say I'm the shit or anything.

Here is the problem with account notes and the current "karma" system and reliance on it.  It sorta is a faulty system even in workplaces around the country I would hazard to say.  Someone does great work, shows up all the time on time, does their best, they are a good employee.  They then screw up once, end up missing work just one time after years on the job, they are noted and written or given some type of documentation to say, "You screwed up."  They then apply for a nice cushy job at Corporate, corporate looks at their file and goes, "Utoh, he's gotta write up for being late." so they then deny him the job.

Basically that just happened to me today, I'm not gonna get into why and what I did wrong as that's between me and staff.  But I honestly think they made a mountain from a molehill in this instance, and I'm sure in other people's as well.

That is why I don't like the limit on special applications, because I just wasted one I never would have submitted if I knew that "tiny" little thing would hold me back.  This is why I don't like the account notes system, because I'm willing to bet that I have no positives on my account or if I do they aren't looked at nearly as much as my negatives.

Do I feel slighted a bit, yeah, am I allowed to feel slighted, yeah, but I know what you're going through.

Jarod

[FuSoYa]

I'll add my two cents in, due to a response to a special app I recieved earlier today,

I've said it time and time again, I'm not a perfect fellow, I make mistakes all the time and have even made mistakes that meant quick deaths to my cherished characters really quickly out the gate.  So don't think I'm trying to be an elitest and say I'm the shit or anything.

Here is the problem with account notes and the current "karma" system and reliance on it.  It sorta is a faulty system even in workplaces around the country I would hazard to say.  Someone does great work, shows up all the time on time, does their best, they are a good employee.  They then screw up once, end up missing work just one time after years on the job, they are noted and written or given some type of documentation to say, "You screwed up."  They then apply for a nice cushy job at Corporate, corporate looks at their file and goes, "Utoh, he's gotta write up for being late." so they then deny him the job.

Basically that just happened to me today, I'm not gonna get into why and what I did wrong as that's between me and staff.  But I honestly think they made a mountain from a molehill in this instance, and I'm sure in other people's as well.

That is why I don't like the limit on special applications, because I just wasted one I never would have submitted if I knew that "tiny" little thing would hold me back.  This is why I don't like the account notes system, because I'm willing to bet that I have no positives on my account or if I do they aren't looked at nearly as much as my negatives.

Do I feel slighted a bit, yeah, am I allowed to feel slighted, yeah, but I know what you're going through.

Jarod

If if makes you feel any better Jarod I've never had a special application accepted for one reason or another but that's just the name of the game sometimes.  I know it's disappointing but the great thing is we are still able to roll up our regular characters, jump in to the game world and have a kick ass time.

Don't get to down man.

Brandon

[Cerelum]

I'll add my two cents in, due to a response to a special app I recieved earlier today,

I've said it time and time again, I'm not a perfect fellow, I make mistakes all the time and have even made mistakes that meant quick deaths to my cherished characters really quickly out the gate.  So don't think I'm trying to be an elitest and say I'm the shit or anything.

Here is the problem with account notes and the current "karma" system and reliance on it.  It sorta is a faulty system even in workplaces around the country I would hazard to say.  Someone does great work, shows up all the time on time, does their best, they are a good employee.  They then screw up once, end up missing work just one time after years on the job, they are noted and written or given some type of documentation to say, "You screwed up."  They then apply for a nice cushy job at Corporate, corporate looks at their file and goes, "Utoh, he's gotta write up for being late." so they then deny him the job.

Basically that just happened to me today, I'm not gonna get into why and what I did wrong as that's between me and staff.  But I honestly think they made a mountain from a molehill in this instance, and I'm sure in other people's as well.

That is why I don't like the limit on special applications, because I just wasted one I never would have submitted if I knew that "tiny" little thing would hold me back.  This is why I don't like the account notes system, because I'm willing to bet that I have no positives on my account or if I do they aren't looked at nearly as much as my negatives.

Do I feel slighted a bit, yeah, am I allowed to feel slighted, yeah, but I know what you're going through.

Jarod

If if makes you feel any better Jarod I've never had a special application accepted for one reason or another but that's just the name of the game sometimes.  I know it's disappointing but the great thing is we are still able to roll up our regular characters, jump in to the game world and have a kick ass time.

Don't get to down man.

Brandon

What is ticking me off is that I am in a role that isn't going anywhere fast, I could be playing my pc for YEARS or more, but they still denied it, instead of waiting to review, so it's almost like I'm being told, "We know you're gonna continue to suck, denied."

[FuSoYa]

What is ticking me off is that I am in a role that isn't going anywhere fast, I could be playing my pc for YEARS or more, but they still denied it, instead of waiting to review, so it's almost like I'm being told, "We know you're gonna continue to suck, denied."

Hrmm...

I'm not quite sure I understand the reasoning you are presenting but that being said, I'm not sure that staff would base their decision on a singular character you are currently playing.

That being said though, I'm not staff.

Either way, just take it easy sleazy.

Brandon

[Rhyden]

Meh.

Karma isn't all it's cracked up to be.

I've never submitted a special app that wasn't for a leader position.

Despite this, almost every one of my "karma" characters have either ended quickly or terribly.

Mundanes ftw.

[Kevo]

....seriously, guys?


Wow, see, this is why I rarely post. There are some great, awesome points in here. Let me simplify my original post, and add a few points for clarification:


Sometimes, I worry people, staff, and players included, may think I'm not roleplaying my char the way I should. However, I know I am, because I know my char. So, I'm gonna stop worrying about it, and have more fun.

I, myself, do not generally make rash decisions, and my role-playing style is oriented towards the fantastical. This is why I enjoy playing chars who have some sort of fantasy bent, and sometimes make rash decisions.

Due to recent events IG, I've had an insight. I'm gonna stop worrying about it. If I play my chars the way I think I should play them, and someone, anyone, does not perceive I'm doing it 'correctly', staff will either tell me, or the player can get over it. I'm not upset that, after nine years, staff has less trust in me, than some who have played only three, (as evidenced by karma) because, as I said in my first post, this is due to losing old accounts.

In conclusion....so what. I like what I play, I have fun when I play, my chars may die, and that's pretty fun too. My post was a microcosm of my real life, as well as my IG life. I am wanting what I have, and not longer wanting what I don't. If I get karma, yay! If I don't, I've still yet to try and see how an autistic child, an idiot savant, a sociopathic lesbian dwarf, or an honest elf, so I've still got plenty of things to try, even the end of arm 1 may be coming sooner than the ability to play more classes will.

Oh well. Seriously guys, quit focusing on the karma part.

Now, I would like to add, thank you for your insightful advice, most of you. And thank for all of your perceptions about half-giants. I personally think some (keyword SOME) would talk like very young children, because even children know, people like you better when you're cute.

FuSoYa, you said it best when you said, 'Jump into the game world, and have a kick ass time.'

Gimf, I feel as if you're speaking to someone else. I have tons and tons of IC tics. In my younger days, I would actually do rash, OOC things, like steal something that was only reloaded after a crash, and players were waiting on staff to remove them. The one time I did this, though, I wished all, and pretty much explained what I did. I got a slap on the wrist, and a thank you for being honest. Just doing something that pointless and OOC driven ruined most of the game experience. I DO want karma, because that expands my options. I do NOT want to play my chars in a way that -I- think is unrealistic of them, and oocly driven just for the desire of karma. If I did that, and I got karma, it would just validate my fears that the only way to achieve trust with the staff, would be to roleplay badly, and have entirely ooc goals.

LOD My god, do you analyze your mother with that mouth? I spent like, maybe a good hour writing that post, because, more than anything, I wanted it to be amusing, with a dash of insight, and a hint of awww. But strangely, these qualities, rushed, angst-ridden, dramatic, hypersensitive, frenzied, and swift to action ARE most of my chars, but there is a big difference between my RP, and my Char. I put a shit ton of thought into what a girl with Pervasive Development Disorder would do if she were suddenly found completely alone, and weighed that against zalanthan culture, before I determined the correct approach to the situation, or what a young man with split personalities, a penchant for murder, and a cool ass half-mask would do if he had no friends, responsibilities, a shit ton of coin, and an apartment in the bardic circle would do, THEN I go out, and roleplay what those angst-ridden dramatic, hypersensitive people would do. It seems like all this confusion is led about by the assumption that I am roleplaying things, that my get my char killed, because I am rash. Quite the opposite, I play chars who are rash, and when I think 'Dammit, this chars started down a path that's gonna get him killed,' I do not use unrealistic excuses, and ooc motivation to drive them away from it. I once wanted nothing more to explore what all spells and abilities a special app would end up having if they lived long enough. However, SHE wanted to jump off the shield wall, and cry while trying to regain some semblance of her former nomadic life with her mother. I knew better, chances are, she'd die. She didn't know better, chances were to her, she'd end up the leader of a magickal mercenary guild, and finally win over that bastards heart. And it was fun, and I rp'ed it well, and she died, so 'screw it'.
(I backed up to add, THIS is my angst-ridden, hypersensitive writing style)

Gah, I apologize, LOD, thank you, I know you were trying to offer me help in my 'quest to get karma', but frankly, that's not my quest. I know you trying to offer sound advice based on your opinion of how I play, but you don't know how I play, you just know my GDB handle, and my posts. You do have some good advice, but it's not for me. I am upset that many of my chars die, but only because I'm attached to them, and it hurts, not because I feel I've been slighted. I am okay with people not realizing that I'm a badass roleplayer, who thinks out (usually to the detriment of my job, social, and sleep life) what my chars would realistically do next, because, even though some of those players get to decide what, or who I can play, if they were really, really interested, they'd stick around and watch, and if they don't, it's probably because something cooler is happening elsewhere, or some work needs to be done.

Fin.



And you know what, for all of you who actually ARE bitching about karma, and special apps, and using my post as a platform to do it. Get over, take LOD's or Gimf's advice, and mine, when I say, stop bitching on the GDB and email you're fucking volunteer staff, and ask them politely, What am I doing that is wrong, or untrustworthy?

remember, I said politely, which means you have to actually assume they know better than you do.

[Malken]

Asking politely works, that's how I got my karma #3 and karma #5 

Also, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to special app  all the character ideas that come through your mind and on the spot, aren't we still just allowed to three special apps per year, denied or not?

I'm obviously quite out of the loop, so maybe that has changed..

[Gimfalisette]

Gimf, I feel as if you're speaking to someone else. I have tons and tons of IC tics.

I was not talking about IC tics, I was talking about OOC ones--your tics, as a player. As LoD mentioned, you seem frenzied and angst-ridden and like your PCs don't live very long. If every one of your PCs is also frenzied and angst-ridden and doesn't live very long, then you probably are not developing the characteristics as a player that would lead to more trust from the imms, and thus more karma.

The discussion that has happened is part of your general topic of karma and wanting it. It's not really an occasion for "seriously, guys?"

Having more fun is great advice, but sometimes players also want karma, and as I said before...there's nothing wrong with that. And, there is nothing wrong with objectively evaluating one's play and figuring out where and how to improve...even if one of one's goals is to gain karma.

[RogueGunslinger]

This post was a thinly veiled attack, and is now deleted.

[Cerelum]

Meh.

Karma isn't all it's cracked up to be.

I've never submitted a special app that wasn't for a leader position.

Despite this, almost every one of my "karma" characters have either ended quickly or terribly.

Mundanes ftw.

Mine too, but that doesn't stop me from wanting to tinker with them.

Just like I know I would crash a Racecar, doesn't mean I still don't want one.

[Aaron Goulet]

Asking politely works, that's how I got my karma #3 and karma #5  

Also, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to special app  all the character ideas that come through your mind and on the spot, aren't we still just allowed to three special apps per year, denied or not?

I'm obviously quite out of the loop, so maybe that has changed..

How does one go about asking?  Asking is new to me (we didn't do it that way back in the day), but I'm... Uh... Very close, karma-wise (unless I've lost some for whatever reason), to being able to play something I really want to play, and special applications scare me, unless it's for a leadership role.

[Gimfalisette]

Email your current or most recent clan staff and ask politely for a karma review, pointing out what you think you've done to show you're trustworthy enough for X karma. They will email you back and let you know what they think.

[Kevo]

Gimf, I feel as if you're speaking to someone else. I have tons and tons of IC tics.

I was not talking about IC tics, I was talking about OOC ones--your tics, as a player. As LoD mentioned, you seem frenzied and angst-ridden and like your PCs don't live very long. If every one of your PCs is also frenzied and angst-ridden and doesn't live very long, then you probably are not developing the characteristics as a player that would lead to more trust from the imms, and thus more karma.

The discussion that has happened is part of your general topic of karma and wanting it. It's not really an occasion for "seriously, guys?"

Having more fun is great advice, but sometimes players also want karma, and as I said before...there's nothing wrong with that. And, there is nothing wrong with objectively evaluating one's play and figuring out where and how to improve...even if one of one's goals is to gain karma.

lol. Okay, I guess I can see your point. I may seem angst-ridden, and frenzied, and that my pc's don't live very long. They don't, and I'm not, in fact, the entire point of the post was to express my -lack- of angst, I am Not worried about it. I do care, but I'm just not worried.

The discussion seems to have taken a tangent, and run wildly with it. This is why I was wondering if you guys were serious. I don't see how I seemed angst-ridden, or frenzied, or hypersensitive, in my original post. Dramatic, maybe, but I was trying to be pointedly overdramatic, I mean, a Fountain reference, a comparison to my RL marriage, it was supposed to be funny. But, like I also pointed out in my post, no one really gets my sense of humor.

Anyhow, keep posting about how I need to change possible IC tics, and ways to get special apps approved, and how to better improve your play, this has to be helping -someone-, I appreciate the info, and advice, and I boldly disagree. Any investigation into my char history would reveal this is not true (my chars are vastly different, in concept, and personality, and decision-making process), so, it's not worth worrying about, huh? I hope there's no hard feelings, and I hope this doesn't seem angsty, dramatic.



And Aaron, honestly, I think asking for the app first, then asking for the karma to keep playing that 'something' afterward would be best. Then, they say, give a you chance, and evaluate you based on that. Just a guess though. Or what Gimf said.

[jstorrie]

Hmm, those were fun to waste. Maybe my next one I can learn some other bit of useful, obscure information to help get me through the app process, and then next year I'll get a whole three new tries to test my skills.  

If it's any consolation, this happens to all of us. I've only had one successful special app, which I ended up relinquishing before even playing. Every other one has been turned down for policy reasons which often seem contradictory to me. Oh well! There are plenty of non-special-app roles to play.

[AmandaGreathouse]

You guys are misreading him... and he comes off horribly through text.

I have truly spent more than half my life playing this game,

For almost a decade, I've been wanting more karma, so I could play roles (classes, because, frankly, that's what they are) that I was interested in when others grew monotonous or tedious, and I always wondered what the problem was.

Was I not roleplaying well enough for the staff?

None of this was truly a really big matter until, Arm 2 was announced.

I have truly spent more than half my life playing this game...And now, she's going to be gone.

As far as Karma goes, ginka, if in the end, you still don't truly, fully trust me.....it's okay, I still trust you.

Arm 1, ginka......Zalanthas as I know it, even though you never fully trusted me, and we never did everything we could together, I will always hold you in my heart, and your world will continue on in my imagination. Since we only have a short time left, I vow to take risks with you I was afraid to before, I vow to make each second count as much as I can, and I promise, that I will never, ever forget the time we spent together.

His post wasn't about wanting karma. It was about feeling like he's spent more than half his life playing Arm (which is actually him playing 11 years, not 9), and it's going to end before he ever gets a chance to fully explore something he put so much time into. While he was previously in a position where he felt slighted and/or misunderstood or looked over even, due to his lack of acknowledged knowledge of the game world and adherence to it, especially after the Arm2 announcement, he's past that. He's realized that in the end it's not about getting to explore every avenue or having some outside faction believe that you know the gameworld well enough to melt brainz, it's about how much fun you have while playing.

Also, post +1. Heh.

[Malken]

How does one go about asking?  Asking is new to me (we didn't do it that way back in the day), but I'm... Uh... Very close, karma-wise (unless I've lost some for whatever reason), to being able to play something I really want to play, and special applications scare me, unless it's for a leadership role.

Well, after I played Chaska the Jul Tavan, I asked nicely in an email if I could have a karma bump, because it had been a long while since I last received karma, and I felt that I put everything I was capable of, roleplay-wise, in that character,
so in my mind, if that wasn't improvement over my last years on Arm, then I don't know what I could do better.. And they agreed, so I got karma #3..

For karma #4, I special app'ed a whiran, and I played him for a while, and I think Staff instead of taking away the option to play a Whiran, they just gave me karma #4 (I think the reason was something like ..Did well with Chaska and show
that he can be trusted with karma 4 classes.. Bump to karma 4)

Karma #5, I special app'ed for a shadow cleric (meh, I already forgot how they are called..) and I played him for a few months, then I sent in an email and I told them that I really enjoyed the class and since it had been a while and I hadn't
received any bad notes in a long while, if they could let me have karma #5, since I was planning on playing those classes again, but I wanted to also be able to save my special applications for higher karma-required classes, before the end, and
again, they were nice enough to bump me to #5.

The end.

[Kevo]

You pretty much got the meat and potatoes of it, baby. Thank you for understanding me. For this, I promise not to reveal your alternate GDB ego.

[ibusoe]

You pretty much got the meat and potatoes of it, baby. Thank you for understanding me. For this, I promise not to reveal your alternate GDB ego.

sorry that you feel that we don't get you.  If you post more often, i'll work harder to understand your posts.

I didn't want to take your post and use it as a soapbox, but I couldn't resist doing so because your post was so awesome.

[ibusoe]

Issues abound with a solution to this "problem".

• Not all players want/require Immteraction.
• Some players want/require more Immteraction than others to feel "included".
• Some players, due to a string of high-profile characters, get used to heavy Immteraction and come to expect it, and can sometimes feel purposefully ignored when the level of interaction decreases.
• Some players view Immteraction as "interference", where others view it as "attention".
• Some players are reactive, and more likely to feed off Immteraction compared to the more pro-active players.
• Some players receive Immteraction with results they might view as negative (i.e. they are executed, refused a promotion, demoted, ordered to perform an action they dislike, not provided with the answer they wanted, etc...) and feel that they are being unfairly targeted, or that Imms are "out to get them".

Creating a system that touches all of these players in the way and manner in which they wish to be treated and touched is likely an impossible task, especially with the Storyteller (most likely staff member to be interacting with you) and Player ratio.

What suggestions do people have for how to solve these many issues in a way that isn't currently being attempted?

-LoD

Thank you for asking.  Obviously, we want to make the most-effective use of existing staff to better distribute attention that individual players receive. 

In the past, I've proposed an expansion of the helper system.  I would rather than people who are playing as helpers take on an expanded role, moving from being more than a "reference desk" similar to what you'd find in a library to a "senior player."  I'd like to see helpers take on a large role in player advocacy.  So many times I've seen players get a raw deal when they deserved much better, but I've seen them slip through the cracks because staff do not have the resources to serve as the ultimate arbiters of justice on every little issue. 

Being realistic, staff do not have twenty minutes to spend on every player request.  Average time per request is probably something like nine minutes.  That means, for many requests they have to make a snap decision whether or not to help, and in most cases this will be the result of a gut level decision.

Unfortunately, gut decisions do not really encourage any sort of quality control, with the result that important players with genuine needs get short changed, not as a result of anyone being insensitive or a dickhead, but for the reason that staff is really busy.

IMHO, this is where the helpers come in.  I think that helpers should be willing to spend the time with troubled players, and help players to prioritize their requests for staff help.  Some players expect too much personalized attention from staff, and should be brought around to the fact that they should not, under any circumstances, expect much more than about 40 minutes of staff interaction per month.

In other cases, you see a player being unfairly punished, or struggling with basic communication problems, or not receiving the rewards and recognition they deserve.  In any bureaucracy, the squeaky wheel gets the grease but we have few people on hand to stick up for the quietest, hardest-working, most consistent workers. 

I'd like to see helpers work as advocates to assist with players when they're having a hard time.  I think that staff should "train the trainers" to make sure that players are able to get the most out of helpers. 

[Olgaris]

I think that's asking an awful lot of helpers.

[Kevo]

I'd have to agree, while it sounds promising, and profitable, I can imagine it'd be a lot of extra work.

Every time I've ever met a inept newbie, I've given them a little tour of the game. When I met an obvious newbie, I'll sometime OOC to ask if they need any help. If not, well, good for them, if they do, then I try and help out.

I think that's really all that helpers can do, and if everyone could do this, (I believe there's a good quantity of players that do) then this kind of attention wouldn't even be necessary.

[Rhyden]

Some players expect too much personalized attention from staff, and should be brought around to the fact that they should not, under any circumstances, expect much more than about 40 minutes of staff interaction per month.

That seems to be a lot of immteraction. If you require that much minutes of staff's time per month, you either -really- want immteraction or you're probably in some sort of fancy high up role.

In other cases, you see a player being unfairly punished, or struggling with basic communication problems, or not receiving the rewards and recognition they deserve.  In any bureaucracy, the squeaky wheel gets the grease but we have few people on hand to stick up for the quietest, hardest-working, most consistent workers.  

Agreed. It would be nice to have some sort of formal helper method to help out players who obviously don't know the code, or are struggling with english, or capitalization, spelling, etc. The problem is, you can't really do this with a player account as it would seem "elitist". I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure staff help out newer players already. If not, it would be nice to have some sort of helper channel or way to have anonymous senior players ig to offer a helping hand. Olgaris is right though, it is asking much. I could see it being somewhat hectic for helpers, but honestly, if it takes any load off the staff, I'm all for it.

[ibusoe]

I think that's asking an awful lot of helpers.

True, but the staff are already burdened.  Some issues are slipping through the cracks.  Who better to tackle the problem?  Helpers are chosen because they are knowledgeable and responsible. 

[Lizzie]

Helpers are already helpful. They're already doing their job, which isn't even a job. Putting more on their plate means that much less time they're available to roleplay. Personally I'd rather see all these awesome helpers in the game, playing their characters, rather than burning out from having to spend yet another four hours helping some dumb noob who couldn't be bothered reading the basic docs.

Yes there are lots of new players who read the docs, jump into the game, don't need much help, and don't become a burden to anyone, and contribute a lot to the game and the enjoyment of everyone else. But even -one- new player who becomes a burden, is one waste of time for a helper who could otherwise be playing and enjoying the game.

I say absolutely positively no to adding more "responsibility" to helpers. The game has a steep learning curve. It says so right in the docs. As for that 40 minute immteraction expectation, I don't know where you're pulling that from. I played a high-profile sponsored role for almost a year, and after the first few months, I think I had -maybe- an hour's worth of in-game interaction with a clan NPC. In six MONTHS.

No one should have any expectation of any "immteraction" at all, period. Getting to roleplay with an IMM's NPC is a privilege, and not something anyone should ever expect. If you're expecting it -at all- then you're expecting too much.

[Gimfalisette]

As for that 40 minute immteraction expectation, I don't know where you're pulling that from. I played a high-profile sponsored role for almost a year, and after the first few months, I think I had -maybe- an hour's worth of in-game interaction with a clan NPC. In six MONTHS.

No one should have any expectation of any "immteraction" at all, period. Getting to roleplay with an IMM's NPC is a privilege, and not something anyone should ever expect. If you're expecting it -at all- then you're expecting too much.

I heartily agree. I would, in fact, recommend that players who are going into sponsored roles for the most part hold the mindset that they will be on their own just about completely; then, if they do get immteraction, or email responses, or plot help, it will feel like extra trimmings. Because sometimes you won't get any interaction or support at all in sponsored roles, and if you've designed your role around needing anything from the staff, it can be a major disappointment and feel ruinous--when it doesn't need to really be either of those things.

The way I see it anymore, the players are the main meal and the staff are an optional (yet delightful) condiment.

[Thistle]

IMHO, this is where the helpers come in.  I think that helpers should be willing to spend the time with troubled players, and help players to prioritize their requests for staff help.  Some players expect too much personalized attention from staff, and should be brought around to the fact that they should not, under any circumstances, expect much more than about 40 minutes of staff interaction per month.

In other cases, you see a player being unfairly punished, or struggling with basic communication problems, or not receiving the rewards and recognition they deserve.  In any bureaucracy, the squeaky wheel gets the grease but we have few people on hand to stick up for the quietest, hardest-working, most consistent workers. 

There are two problems here that jump out at me. 

First, if a player is expecting more staff attention and we refer them to the helpers that probably isn't going to help.  The person is going to reject being referenced to the helpers and probably give the helper quite an earful in the process.  It kind of makes me think of my dealings with comcast.  If the first person who answers the phone is a the helper, I'd say a company whose policy is to make someone who isn' t involved in the decision making process the person who is supposed to deal with my complaint than that company is just trying to get rid of their customers.  We're not a company, we're a game, and we don't hate our players or our helpers.  I think it is fair for a player to expect a staff member to give them the respect to hear from us why we're responding to one of their requests one way or another.

On another note, requests arn't a run and gun process that this thread seems to assume.  We can, and do, put notes on requests and allow multiple staff members to spend a fair bit of time trying to decide the best resolution for it. 

[Potaje]

Yes there are lots of new players who read the docs, jump into the game, don't need much help, and don't become a burden to anyone, and contribute a lot to the game and the enjoyment of everyone else. But even -one- new player who becomes a burden, is one waste of time for a helper who could otherwise be playing and enjoying the game.

As I read this I can not help but think that if there is a helper that finds helping a burden, then perhaps they should not be a helper. It seems this is an option for one to take on and not a prerequisite. Yes there are players out there that need some extra tender care.. outside the game we are not expected to maintain the cut throat piss on you if you are not on fire and not piss on you if you are attitude. I believe that being a helper one should demonstrate above normal patience and willingness to -Help-.   

[ibusoe]

There are two problems here that jump out at me. 

First, if a player is expecting more staff attention and we refer them to the helpers that probably isn't going to help.  The person is going to reject being referenced to the helpers and probably give the helper quite an earful in the process.  It kind of makes me think of my dealings with comcast.  If the first person who answers the phone is a the helper, I'd say a company whose policy is to make someone who isn' t involved in the decision making process the person who is supposed to deal with my complaint than that company is just trying to get rid of their customers.  We're not a company, we're a game, and we don't hate our players or our helpers.  I think it is fair for a player to expect a staff member to give them the respect to hear from us why we're responding to one of their requests one way or another.

On another note, requests arn't a run and gun process that this thread seems to assume.  We can, and do, put notes on requests and allow multiple staff members to spend a fair bit of time trying to decide the best resolution for it. 

No, you've got a point.  We don't want to turn the Helpers into the Comcast Helpdesk. 

But in what I propose, I don't want to be a zone where Staff punt cases that they don't feel like dealing wither.  Rather, I'd like for the Helpers to be a place where players can go if they feel like they're not getting a fair shake from staff.

What do I envision would happen most of the time?  I think most of the time would be that the Helpers would assist the troubled player to understand that yes, there are perfectly valid reasons why the staff are not giving you your magic-metal sword, your stat boost, your multi-shot crossbow and your pet bahamet all in the same week and that no, they're not being unfair.  Really, most of the time a player is upset I just think it would help if someone were available to listen.  Staff have too much to do to sit around listening to players griping. 

Of course, every now and then it could be the case that a player really hasn't gotten a fair shake because it's a complex case and staff are not able to make full consideration of an individual's problems.  What then?  I'd like helpers to have the authority to ask for a second review.

As I read this I can not help but think that if there is a helper that finds helping a burden, then perhaps they should not be a helper. It seems this is an option for one to take on and not a prerequisite. Yes there are players out there that need some extra tender care.. outside the game we are not expected to maintain the cut throat piss on you if you are not on fire and not piss on you if you are attitude. I believe that being a helper one should demonstrate above normal patience and willingness to -Help-.   

Yes, thank you.  I did not want to say it in as many words, but this is what I'm getting at.  Helpers should, as a general rule, be willing to help.

[ibusoe]

No one should have any expectation of any "immteraction" at all, period. Getting to roleplay with an IMM's NPC is a privilege, and not something anyone should ever expect. If you're expecting it -at all- then you're expecting too much.

I disagree with this Lizzie.

I think that immteraction is what separates an RPI MUD from a hack + slash MMORPG.

With a table-top game, 100% of your actions are interpretted through the imagination of a storyteller, but this doesn't scale well.  In an RPI MUD, a codebase is handling a lot of the grind of routine tasks like hunting, crafting, eating and sleeping and wandering monsters.  Storytellers only come in to handle complexities that can't be addressed by the code.

Most successful players strive to be as independent as possible and not to be too dependent on having immteraction.  But let's not forget that there is a commitment in place here:

  Players have a commitment to the game to try to treat the world as a real, living, breathing environment and to play their characters realistically, not like video game characters.

  Staff --should-- have a commitment to the game to try to interface complex actions for characters when players want or need to do something for which the codebase is inadequate.

This isn't a videogame.  The code can't possibly anticipate everything we want to do in a realistic manner.

[Lizzie]

I think you misunderstand me ibusoe. I'll reiterate:
By "immteraction" I am assuming people mean interaction with staff-animated NPCs.

That whole "change" in staff policy, I only saw the ugly side of it. I saw a lot of people getting to experience fun moments with staff-animated NPCs and critters, while my character -needed- her NPC boss and was told all communication had to be done via e-mail. When some recruit in the clan got a visit from the clan's NPC gossip, I got to hear about it third-hand, while my character was scrambling to deal with issues that I was only allowed to communicate about via e-mail. When another clannie got the excitement of a "critter" doing something interesting, I got to hear about it third-hand, while I was typing off yet another report to the clan staff to tell them about a "situation", because I wasn't allowed to get that conversation in-game. If I had even half the time the staff spent in e-mails with me, roleplaying with their animated NPC bosses, I would've been overwhelmed with joy. It would've been the highlight of my arm-playing existence. It also would've cut down dramatically on e-mails in both directions.

Even now, with my most recent character, I had a completely un-scheduled, unremarkable, moment of imm-animated fun, for absolutely no reason, and I didn't wish up for it, and my character is a complete and total nobody. Yet my sponsored character of almost a year, had to pull REALLY STUPID SHIT in order to get any interaction at all. And even then I had to e-mail about it in advance to schedule it.

[LauraMars]

I like being a helper, even though nobody ever asks for my help.

[brytta.leofa]

I like being a helper, even though nobody ever asks for my help.

I asked for your help.

[FantasyWriter]

I like being a helper, even though nobody ever asks for my help.

Same here.  I probably spend.... 25 mins/week as a helper.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I appreciate being able to help the game by being a Helper as well. It's rewarding.

[Akoto]

I would love to be a Helper, but I was told the group was too full, alas.

[Rhyden]

I like being a helper, even though nobody ever asks for my help.

[Akaramu]

The original post speaks to a widespread problem.

Some players get a lot of attention, but some get very little staff support or attention.

I got 2 karma on the same character within the first 2 months of playing... then none for several years. When I did get karma after years, it was because I played a special apped mage who was so severely off peak that I was often one of only maybe 2-4 players online. That's what finally got me staff attention again. I received an email from a somewhat puzzled staff member who gave me karma, and told me I should have had this much long ago...

The cracks, they can be frustrating.

[Pale Horse]

I'm a helper!