Glass ceilng on apps

[Kryos]

Caveat:  I have *no clue* how this process is done, I'm talking about perceptions from the player end of things.  Also, I didn't post this in ask the staff because of the expounding on a possible issue.

Question:  How heavily does karma/redundancy impact the factoring of applications?

Problem statement: If it factors a great deal,  I think the karma system can be dangerous, enforcing a glass ceiling on novice to journeyman players who are looking to acquire a sponsored role.  It seems to me when applications are asked for, and I see one that I either am tremendously interested in or qualified for from my own perspective, my applications fall through due to someone having more karma.

This is problematic in that if you hand these roles out to those who have already done them, or similar roles, you are seriously hedging the growth potential and experiences of the journeymen players.  Lets say there's an app for a Byn officer, and me and Bob apply.  I've been in the byn, know the workings, and have played a whole slew of grizzled, long lived warriors.  So has Bob.  Bob has 2-3 more karma and has been an officer, I haven't.  Bob gets the role.  Now I'm stuck like chuck, as it were, not able to diversify and prove myself further because someone's doing it again.  (note:  Please read the caveat, I *don't* know this happens, but I *perceive* it to). 

This is a glass ceiling, and I think extremely bad for the game as well as frustrating and alienating for the players stuck in their low/mid-karma crises. 

Solution:  Give a bit more leeway to the people looking to step up into the limelight, as it were. 

Final note:  Maybe this is happening, and the instances I know of are simply examples of the ceiling lifted, just not for the roles I've knowledge/experience of.  If that's the case, I'll simmer down.

[Gimfalisette]

Karma has nothing to do with sponsored applications.

[mansa]

It seems to me when applications are asked for, and I see one that I either am tremendously interested in or qualified for from my own perspective, my applications fall through due to someone having more karma.

Is that what was given as the reason why yours was not accepted?

Perceiving and Knowing are two different things.  If you feel you've been shafted, the best way is to ask the immortal staff.  They are the people making the decisions, and I'm sure they'll give you pointers as to why.


In my ArmageddonMUD career, I first got a "merchant house" member in a special app.   Then a noble.  I haven't applied for a templar position, mostly because I don't believe I have enough time to invest into one to make it fun for me.

[Olgaris]

I've never known of a sponsored role (e.g. Noble/Templar/Merchant/oddities) decision being made based upon karma. Special applications (guilds/races not on your options list) are in part decided upon using karma. We usually don't give a Sorcerer or Psionicist to someone with zero karma.

[Kryos]

I've never known of a sponsored role (e.g. Noble/Templar/Merchant/oddities) decision being made based upon karma. Special applications (guilds/races not on your options list) are in part decided upon using karma. We usually don't give a Sorcerer or Psionicist to someone with zero karma.

Thanks, I'm glad to hear this.

edit to add: I've never felt slighted by staff, they conduct themselves professionally from my experience.  A huge reason why I feel comfortable discussing things like this.

[Decameron]

Glass ceilings seem to be imposed on a sponsored character after the app and sufficient time and effort has passed, never before.

Granted, I don't think you could ever app Tek or Muk (I'm certain it's been tried) or any head of an established organization - but then again, the population base for the game is sort of too small for those roles, it would appear. Besides, it's not necessarily starting off kick-ass which is the fun part, but the struggle of working yourself up in a harsh world like Zalanthas, which usually can give a lot more to your experience and the depth of your character.

Generally, I figure if the Imms would be looking more towards how you as a player might be able to handle the role, rather than your karma.

[Pale Horse]

Chiming in with what Olgaris said, while it's never seemed to me as if special apps were decided on the basis of karma (those who have it, get more.  Those who don't, get less), I am not surprised that they do considering "it", karma, when making a decision about a special application.  Mostly those, I gather, having to deal with access to guilds and/or races above the applicant's current karma level.

As was said, the Staff doesn't grant Sorcerer or Psi apps to those with 0 Karma.  A desert elf, though, is fully possible.  It all has to do with how long you've been playing, the level of "maturity" or realistic IG behavior you've shown with your characters.

Sorcerer may be out of your range (generic, everybody "your"), but perhaps that noble position isn't.

I've only had one special app rejected, but that was due to there being too many of the guild I wanted to try out IG at the time.  I was told to try again in a month, but by then, I'd lost interest.

[Cutthroat]

Sponsored apps (merchant house family member, noble, templar, etc) aren't granted based on karma. Instead, experience is considered.

Of course, a first-time applicant won't have direct experience. If you're looking to play, say, an Allanaki templar, it helps to have experience as a templar, or noble, or a PC who worked closely with these types. Play some strong minion-types and that experience you gain will be worth more than 8 karma in a sponsored role.

[Nyr]

I was looking around for a post I'd made on this a while back and found that I'd already responded to you there, so I'll repost.

New players aren't very likely to get chosen over the longer-term players who apply for role calls.  Why do I say this?  Because for every role call thats been done since I started playing, I've seen it happen.  The newer players just can't compete, sadly, and just aren't given the chance.  The ladder is being pulled up behind the veterans and that can and does drive newer players away.  So instead of risking these crucial roles, another system needs to be in place.

Over the past year, more than half of the roles I approved (or had a hand in getting approved) in clan-sponsored roles were first-timers.

To clarify:  they had never played such a role before. 
I don't mean "haven't played a Salarri yet but played a Kadian."  I mean "haven't played a GMH family member at all," or "never touched a noble role," or "I've always wanted to be a templar and I app a few times but I haven't ever gotten approved for one."  Sometimes, it's a combination of all of them:  "I have played long-term, dependable roles, but I have never been in a sponsored role before."

[ibusoe]

Problem statement: If it factors a great deal,  I think the karma system can be dangerous, enforcing a glass ceiling on novice to journeyman players who are looking to acquire a sponsored role.  It seems to me when applications are asked for, and I see one that I either am tremendously interested in or qualified for from my own perspective, my applications fall through due to someone having more karma.

I've had various complaints about staff over the years, but they deserve a bit of credit on this point:  they're very fair about special applications.

If you show that you can handle responsibility and that you've done your homework, then they will approve your application. 

I'd encourage you to apply for roles if you think you can handle the responsibility.  Something like a sorcerer is truly fun -- -you will really wield the power to nuke like thirty players.  But you have to ask yourself, if that will make the game more fun?  Will it encourage the development of plot?

Basically, if you're going to run around nuking stuff you should be doing it in a way that will assist your helpless victims to have more fun.

I'm sure you would do well with a special application.  Have confidence in yourself and work hard on it, and be willing to both listen to and respond to criticism with improvement.  Work on challenging your fellow players, and on building their OOG respect.

The staff are human, and imperfect, but the current leadership is very good and they are usually fair.

Even back when I was having problems with the game, I could still get an app approved if I worked hard on it.  You can do it.

[palomar]

Apply for sponsored roles that you are interested in. Experience with the game, and the location of the role in particular (if specified) always helps. Regardless of Karma, it also always helps to have had somewhat consistant contact with the staff, whether it be independent-staff or clan staff. They will be able to give input when the staff running the sponsored role's clan asks who the heck you are, if they don't know already.

I think that if you ask politely why your app for a sponsored role was rejected, chances are staff will be helpful and give you a clue. IMHO, leadership experience is important as many sponsored roles require the player to keep their minions busy and happy. Leadership experience can be acquired in many many ways, in almost all aspects and parts of the game.

[Akoto]

Staff has always been willing to elaborate upon why I've been rejected for roles, but usually, I have to ask. I've always done so, as I think this information is useful in both improving my play style and broadening my experience level in areas where I'm lacking.

I've played quite a few sponsored roles, and even when my karma was very low, I was given a fair shake. I even made it through now and again. This is in spite of the fact that, for a while, I was not on fantastic terms with the staff. I'd made some mistakes which had resulted in punishment. After the fact, I think they recognized that I genuinely regretted it, and they went right back to giving me fair consideration. It took a lot of determination and work to clean up my image, but I ended up landing a role I'd been chasing for a number of years. So, I'd have to agree that staff is more than fair in looking beyond karma, to the point of sometimes giving people like me a second chance.

Reliability does play a part in the process. Although I'd had many sponsored roles, I had not stuck with several of them for adequate lengths of time. This affected my odds down the line, until I'd proven via other (non-sponsored) roles that I could learn from my errors and improve. It's difficult to trust someone with an important job if they can't be relied upon to stick with it.

[brytta.leofa]

Final note:  Maybe this is happening, and the instances I know of are simply examples of the ceiling lifted, just not for the roles I've knowledge/experience of.  If that's the case, I'll simmer down.

Just give it a try (or several) yourself, mate.  And prepare yourself to handle such a role by playing one or two relatively long-lived characters in the areas that interest you.

Every player who's been around very long has some anecdote about how the staff Totally Screwed Something Up, Man.  Sometimes (obviously less often than we think) we're even right, but cataloging the gripes is only going to give you a wildly distorted picture.

[Gimfalisette]

I apped for, received, and played my first sponsored role (Tuluki noble) after playing my first long-lived PC (Tuluki bard). I had only 1 karma at that point.

Later I played a very long-lived and well-known ground-up leadership PC in Allanak, and subsequently wasn't chosen for an Allanaki noble role I applied for. I had more karma at that point.

All of this anecdata is not really helpful, but in my experience, staff does spread sponsored leadership roles around. Also in my experience, staff really REALLY likes applications for these roles that are sufficiently detailed about what you plan to do both ICly and OOCly.

I think it's also important to note that for the most part, players who do take sponsored roles aren't interested in constantly and only playing those roles. If you're going to do them right, they are difficult and very draining, and often not very rewarding either ICly or OOCly. There is not some small, preferred group of players that is "hogging up" these roles.

[Cerelum]

All that stuff

Trust me, they are fair with who they let play what.  I've been a total asshat for YEARS at a time and still have had access to probably 75% of the roles out there.

My Karma is actually about average from talking to folks which I thought was totally low for a long time that made me think I was being slighted in that regard.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think most folks who have 8 karma are old/current staff or just SUPERB players who have held world changing roles, then it whittles down from there.  If you've been playing for a while and you have access to d-elf and at least some type of magicker, you're not doing bad.  If you can play a big clumsy idiot (half-giants) then you're doing about par.

Anything above and beyond I would hazard to say is "Above Average".

Hope that helps.

[Adhira]

There's already some good information here on the process etc. One thing to consider is that the roles you are applying for can be hotly contested. A call for a southern Templar can often see 20 applicants, we do try and spread the roles around, but even then it can mean that you don't land the role after several applications.

I know that when I am selecting applicants I look to do several things:

Give people a 'shot', we want to share the love, we don't want the same group of people in leadership or sponsored roles, and I'm pretty sure that they don't want to always have to be playing these kinds of roles. Believe me, they can be hard work.

Offer a chance to 'grow' - If you've never played a sponsored role, never taken any kind of in game leadership and so on, it's less likely you'll land the highly contested Templar slot. However, we usually try and encourage you to apply for other types of positions, or to work yourself in to a leadership role in game to get that experience. Playing a GMH merchant, a byn Sarge etc are all worthwhile.

Balance the positions - If we're taking on more than one person for a type of role this is easy to do. I'll very rarely (I'd say never, but you can never say never..) take on two veteran, experienced players in the same type of role. I'd be looking to give at least one 'newer' person a shot and perhaps balancing that with someone with a little bit more leadership experience.

Karma is not much of a consideration when looking at the applicants, we want to know that you can handle the IC role, and the OOC responsibility.

[Kryos]

Thanks for all these replies, I'm glad I posted this.  I'm guessing this thread will be useful for a lot of players to read and understand about sponsored roles.  I believe the thing that's working against my perception the most is volume.  I apply only for roles I believe I excel at, low volume means low success rate.

[Adiadochokinesis]

Thanks for all these replies, I'm glad I posted this.  I'm guessing this thread will be useful for a lot of players to read and understand about sponsored roles.  I believe the thing that's working against my perception the most is volume.  I apply only for roles I believe I excel at, low volume means low success rate.

There's also the high volume of applicants. I bet we'd all be surprised at the number of people applying to any role.

[Reiloth]

At the end of the day, i've found that 'sponsored roles' (Leadership based) end up relying on a good character concept, reliable playing times (Not neccesarily always peak, but preferable that they are consistant, and leaning towards peak if possible), and good account notes.

By good account notes, i've found it usually means 'not bad account notes'. So -- You don't need to really have experience playing in that specific role. That'd be boring! Having a guy who's really good at playing "Sneaky Kadian Agents". Rather the contrary -- I've found staff willing to give a player the opportunity to prove themselves, should the fit the previous criteria and not have the 'hands on experience'.

" "

[Clearsighted]

It has less to do with your karma and more to do with who is reviewing your application. Just like all human beings differ, some staff are a bit more adventurous than others when it comes to taking chances on someone.

[Gwoshi Cheese]

Writing a badass app can't hurt. Sell yourself like it's a resume.

edit: Reiloth said it well.

At the end of the day, i've found that 'sponsored roles' (Leadership based) end up relying on a good character concept, reliable playing times (Not neccesarily always peak, but preferable that they are consistant, and leaning towards peak if possible), and good account notes.

By good account notes, i've found it usually means 'not bad account notes'. So -- You don't need to really have experience playing in that specific role. That'd be boring! Having a guy who's really good at playing "Sneaky Kadian Agents". Rather the contrary -- I've found staff willing to give a player the opportunity to prove themselves, should the fit the previous criteria and not have the 'hands on experience'.

" "

[spawnloser]

The only glass ceiling in this game is that they don't let players get 'promoted' (and I use the term loosely) past a certain point and still remain PCs.  They either become VNPCs or NPCs, whatever.  No matter their fate in that manner, the character is stored.  That is the only glass ceiling.

[mansa]

The only glass ceiling in this game is that they don't let players get 'promoted' (and I use the term loosely) past a certain point and still remain PCs.  They either become VNPCs or NPCs, whatever.  No matter their fate in that manner, the character is stored.  That is the only glass ceiling.

There's always Sargax.