Better bards

[Salt Merchant]

Bards can be hard to play, at least in the sense of having characters welcome their songs rather than ignoring them.

Here are a couple of obvious suggestions for capturing an audience:

1. Be there when things happen. If you catch wind of something important going down, try to get an invite and note what you see to turn it into song. But don't sing while there. Please. People will be busy.

2. Sing about events that have happened, including names that people recognize. Such songs will be far more interesting (to players at least, which will tend to be reflected in their characters' level of interest).

[My 2 sids]

This is a role-playing game.  For a better-barding experience, those PCs in the audience should participate as well:  add to the over-all setting and atmosphere, offer interaction for the performer, and most importantly (esp. when in Tuluk) Support those bards!!!   It's an art and your PC would appreciate it, both with sids and by reacting appropriately (don't kill a bard who names you)

[Lizzie]

As a player though 2sids, my time is limited. And my idea of RP fun is not parking my character in a room where someone will perform a song that I can't hear, to a tune I'm unfamiliar, and expect me to tap my feet to a rhythm that I am unable to imagine. Especially when it's all done in poorly-written couplets. Nothing screams "log out and play with your cats" more than:

She loved me so, she told me true
I gazed inside her eyes of blue
There was nothing more to do
than raise my sword and kill you.

Okay I lie. That's actually pretty funny. But damn if I'll sit through a whole hour of that shit.

[RogueGunslinger]

So, if you're sitting in a tavern, odds are no one is facilitating role-play anyways, and you're probably just staring at the screen waiting for some action. Are you saying you'd leave if a bard comes in and starts playing or singing? That's kind of stupid.

[Cutthroat]

Bards, just try use proper grammar and spelling, and don't put anachronisms in your songs (especially if you're doing an Earth-to-Zalanthas converted song).

Ain't nothin' else to it. Sing what you like.

[Lizzie]

So, if you're sitting in a tavern, odds are no one is facilitating role-play anyways, and you're probably just staring at the screen waiting for some action. Are you saying you'd leave if a bard comes in and starts playing or singing? That's kind of stupid.

Obviously you don't know me, or my roleplay. I don't "just stare at the screen waiting for some action." Your hypothesis and strawman conclusion don't apply to me, at all.

But yes, if a bard shows up and starts spamming the screen with an hour's worth of screen-scroll then yes, I would give my character a reason to leave. Or maybe I'd just tab over to the web browser and read the GDB, and tab back to nod my character's head every few minutes, if she's stuck there for some IC reason.

[RogueGunslinger]

I see. Maybe I don't play enough in tuluk, but I've never seen any bard play anything near an hours worth of screen scroll. It's clear you're exaggerating, but I think it's a bit much. But I can't help but agree wholeheartedly with you stance. I mean, if two people started an hour long brawl session of low quality rp I'd certainly be leaving too.

All I'm saying is if someone is offering interaction or role play in a tavern of a sort different than 'l amos, l tressed, l wiry' then you should by praising the highlord/muk. Not acting like "OH, this boring ass bullshit again, I'm going to make my pc roll her eyes and go idle in an empty tavern instead."

But then again maybe you don't find it hard to get pc on pc interaction like I do. I do play off peak frequently.

[jcljules]

People tend to forget that one person's annoying hour's worth of screen scroll is another person's dose of Zalanthan atmosphere and another's hard work. I have appreciated the majority of the songs that I've read that bards have composed and I've seen very little "spam," and even less playing while "something important is going down." I don't fault anyone for not liking bards, but that's their fault, not the fault of the bards. If you don't like bards, don't pay attention to their songs. It's not that hard to ignore things, I assure you - and if you truly hate multi-line bard songs, I implore you to try brief songs instead of insulting other people and their contributions to the game. It's on you, not them.

Pertaining to Salt Merchant's points, I agree with the second point and I've seen this in game a lot, believe it or not. As to the first point, I haven't seen a lot of this, but I'd recommend taking it ICly. If a bard is singing a love song during a templar's speech, have them arrested. If a bard is interrupting your brawl, punch them. But don't assume that the bard's seemingly out of place performance is a result of poor play on their part - I hate seeing assumptions like this on the board. Maybe the bard is trying to insult the templar, or stop the brawl, or distract you from something else that's going on. Or annoy you out of the tavern, where there are assassins lying in wait for you.

On a side note, I really don't understand what it is about bards that upsets people so much. It's not a coded skill, it's not some sort of inherent coded or social power... it can't really be spam, otherwise people would be just as upset by people who spam eat in bars... I really just don't understand.

[RogueGunslinger]

Exactly what Jules said.

[jcljules]

More on the topic of the thread and less in response to the bard bashing, here are some actual tips for playing a good bard.

• Rhyme and meter. People like Lizzie will already hate you because they can't imagine your songs, it's just worse if it doesn't have rhyme and meter. If you do have rhyme and meter, there is a sizable minority of people who can imagine the rhythm in their heads and who will enjoy the piece. Like me.
• Make your pieces totally Zalanthan. People hate adapted pieces, in my experience, for having too much real world flavor.
• Have a purpose for your pieces. Use them to insult and humiliate others. That'll get their attention. Use them to praise other characters. Use them to recount interesting tales to other PCs - you might not like bards, but you might love hearing about how that Sorcerer was defeated in that cave that one time.
• Don't just sing. Ask PCs about their lives, gather tales and stories. Play pranks. Tell stories. Perform in other ways. Find ways to incorporate audiences into your performances. Be a gossip.
• Use proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and use the little slash marks to break your pieces up into neat lines.
• Don't be discouraged by assholes.

[Lizzie]

It has nothing to do with quality, or rhyme, or meter. It has to do with sitting there watching the screen scroll and having difficulty dealing with it. Just like the spam-scroll of combat during HRPTs..I avoid those too, for the same reason.

I also don't like reading poetry. I like reciting it, out loud, and hearing it recited, out loud. That might have something to do with it. You could be the next Chaucer but if it's on a screen scroll and I'm not hearing it audibly, then you'll lose my interest. And I -love- Chaucer.

[MarshallDFX]

It has nothing to do with quality, or rhyme, or meter. It has to do with sitting there watching the screen scroll and having difficulty dealing with it. Just like the spam-scroll of combat during HRPTs..I avoid those too, for the same reason.

  I'm trying to find out if Lizzie has a recommendation for playing better bards.  If I had to guess it would be "don't be one", but I have a feeling the terms "straw man" will be used yet again.

I also imagine it must be kind of hard to enjoy a mud, when you can't watch a screen scroll.  Of course, I live for the RPTs and HRPTs.  Adventure, please.

[jcljules]

If you don't like bards, don't pay attention to their songs. It's not that hard to ignore things, I assure you - and if you truly hate multi-line bard songs, I implore you to try brief songs instead of insulting other people and their contributions to the game. It's on you, not them.

I also don't like reading poetry. I like reciting it, out loud, and hearing it recited, out loud. That might have something to do with it. You could be the next Chaucer but if it's on a screen scroll and I'm not hearing it audibly, then you'll lose my interest. And I -love- Chaucer.

Your saying that you don't like bards because you can't hear their songs is akin to a devoted MMORPG player saying that they don't like MUDs because they can't see the world.

Nobody denies that you have a right to dislike bards. But please, dislike bards silently. Because some people like bards and some people play bards and every time posts like yours show up, people think twice before playing a bard. Maybe that's what you want, but it's not what I want.

And I agree, MarshallDFX. Basically Salt Merchant made a thread called "Better bards," and Lizzie must have thought that  'cease to exist' was a good tip for bard players.

[MarshallDFX]

Slogan:  Bash bards in the Gaj.  Not on the GDB.

Do not actually bash bards.  Always remember to use the "hit" command.

[Lizzie]

My reaction was to my2sids, who felt it important that players should support bard characters in game. I disagree. I don't feel it is my obligation to support bard characters in game. I feel put-upon whenever someone makes an attempt to dictate to me how I should roleplay. So rather than bite my ass for having an opinion to that one person's post, why not go back on topic and tell us all how to be better bards? Here's one suggestion:

Don't feel that you must use couplets, or even that you need to rhyme. Creative writing (which is what this is), doesn't require rhymes. Prose doesn't necessitate rhymes, and neither does poetry. Read some poetry by various types of poets to learn rhythms and styles. Rhyming poetry is fun, it can be very beautiful. But it isn't the only type there is, and it definitely isn't the only type that translates well to text.

[jcljules]

Nobody is dictating to you how you should roleplay. My problem is that you are putting down a certain group of players on the boards because of their chosen style of play. You don't have an obligation to support bard characters. But it's never good roleplay to refuse to acknowledge characters or their actions because you OOCly don't like them. Leaving a tavern because you don't like screen scroll is an OOC reaction. Why not take your dislike of bards IC and complain in game? At least that creates some interaction. And who says your character has the same opinion as you? I've had characters hate songs that I OOCly liked and characters who have clapped for songs that I OOCly disliked.

As for going back on topic and telling us all how to be better bards, I did that already if you'll scroll up a bit. Though I know how much you hate screen scroll. But it is good that you're offering some actual advice now - and I'd agree that not all songs have to rhyme. I just suggest rhyming because I've seen people playing non-rhyming bards having trouble getting noticed.

[My 2 sids]

Lizzie, chill.

All I'm saying is a Bard is a very interactive role concept -- one which will be better with more interaction.  Like w/ leadership PCs sometimes a player does have an obligation to give something to the player on the other end to which he or she can interact.   

I'm not sure why people think they can play a game with others and not have some obligation to their fellow players.

[Uberskaapie]

I don't have much to contribute to the mud-slinging, Just wanted to say that I have had so much fun playing southern bards it's ridiculous. OOC, You need to have pretty thick skin.

That being said, OOC I generally feel the same way Lizzie does, but that doesn't stop me from appreciating them in game when it is appropriate to do so. The other thing people need to understand is that everything else in the bar doesn't stop when a bard starts performing. Zalanthan bars aren't the Lincoln Center, They're more like dirty, smokey basement venues where you can barely hear the performers over shouted orders and drunken laughter. Feel free to ignore the performers as your PC might be likely to do anyway. Nobody is forcing your roleplay or expecting you react a certain way.

If it's truly the screen scroll that is the problem, I don't know what to say.

On the topic of "Better Bards" my advice to the would-be performer is not to expect any specific reaction from your audience, and not to be put down by IC insults and heckling. My pc might get pissed at you and refuse to tip, but that doesn't mean I'm not happy for the opportunity to stop idling and get in a fight. We <3 you bards. We need you.

[jcljules]

On the topic of "Better Bards" my advice to the would-be performer is not to expect any specific reaction from your audience, and not to be put down by IC insults and heckling. My pc might get pissed at you and refuse to tip, but that doesn't mean I'm not happy for the opportunity to stop idling and get in a fight. We <3 you bards. We need you.

Definitely. Interaction doesn't have to be nice. It just has to be interaction. I'm sure there are some bard players just waiting to get heckled.

[Kassindra]

I love the concept of bards, however I have never played one myself because I don't know what all goes into it. I'm hoping that this thread proves productive and sheds some light on how to get into playing one. Most times when I encounter a bard and they aren't even that great with their performance, I still applaud the efforts, because if that is what they chose to play, then I as a player will appreciate it and know they also want to enjoy the game, the same way I want to.


Go bards! Hopefully people post some great ways to get others involved who may be toying with the idea of giving this a try in the future.

[Lizzie]

That's pretty much it in a nutshell Uberskapie. I kinda take insult when people attack me for something I never said. Nowhere have I said I don't appreciate the effort and hard work that goes into roleplaying a bardic performance. In fact, I've gone out of my way to state emphatically that I *do* appreciate it.

But just like someone who is tone-deaf - you don't take a tone-deaf person to a symphony, and then ask them how they liked it. All they'll really be able to tell you is "it had a great beat" or "the tympani player was cute!" It doesn't mean they thought the violinist sucked. It doesn't mean they thought the conductor was clueless. It just means they lack the ability to tell.

I have the same lack, when it comes to bardic performances in text. I just don't "get it." For everyone attacking me, calling me an asshole for not appreciating the effort and work that goes into playing the role, maybe you're the one who isn't getting it.

[Salt Merchant]

Things about a bard's performance:

1. It's difficult to tell from verse how good the musicial portion actually is and what sort of response it's worthy of. And yet emoting about the wonders of your playing comes off as something of a power emote too, telling mine how he's supposed to react.

2. Even if your bard is the greatest musician in the world, that simply doesn't transmit through the game media and the resulting experience is less than moving. So this leaves storytelling and content as the prime means to provide a service and be appreciated.

3. Part of the reason that many don't like bards is that they're providing an unsolicited service. A bard that just starts spouting in a busy tavern without an invitation can draw some ire, especially if he starts openly grumping about not being acknowledged or having coins tossed his way afterward. It feels like an interruption to the conversations that were going on, too. Asking first, during a lull in the action, might help. Another approach might be to seek pay from the tavern keeper, sit in a corner, and play unobtrusively to provide a background, without verse. Then maybe now and then someone will ask for a song.

[Lizzie]

Storytelling is perfect for this media. I've seen things as simple as a hunter explaining their last run-in with a halfling, and as complex as a carefully-woven historic tale, that have really been entertaining to watch. It also completely eliminates the need to translate the sound of your melody to text. You can even scatter rhyming schemes into the story, or alliterations (especially for comic effect).

The best part about storytelling, is you don't really have to do any planning in advance. If you know you have 3 minutes, and you know the topic, you can put something together on the fly and embellish as needed. You can also tell a story about the most ridiculous things, and make it interesting, or worth watching. You can do that with songs too, but songs need a melody, generally need some kind of rhythm. A story doesn't need any of that. It just needs a fair imagination, and a fair understanding of the emote system.

[JustAnotherGuy]

I thought at one point to make a bard that was more of  Storyteller and a News Monger.  Traveling from place to place passing news and information as he goes about his travels, hoping for tips to survive.  That I would think would make an interesting bard.

[Fredd]

i have sang many times in taverns.
granted i may not know how to do that formatting, but use paragraph from. it's never been ignored. even if the song itself is horrid.

[Ourla]

Sing about sex and drinking, and you'll be a hit.

One of my first long-lived characters in the game was a Circle bard in Tuluk.  The role definitely has its ups and downs.  I feel strongly that most characters, in Tuluk at least, would be avid fans of the music that bards bring to the taverns and to festivals and gatherings.  Commoners wouldn't get to hear it very many other places. Like someone else said...  Even if you, as a player, despise spammy bards and can't fathom the work the player has put into formatting and composing their songs, chances are that your character just might.  Bards: take your customers with a grain of salt.  Sure, some cultureless commoner swine might up and walk out on your performance, but all it takes is one juicy tip from a noble to make all your hurts go away.  And then you have more fodder for writing songs about cultureless swine.

I love bards.  I'll definitely play one again, and when I'm able I always tip them when they sing IG.  I played a templar whose half-giant guard's knees would go weak when a pretty bard walked into the room.  Even if I, as a player, was too busy to emote my appreciation, my HG definitely did.

[Xeran Van Houten]

When the going gets tough, the bards go drinking.

[My 2 sids]

I thought at one point to make a bard that was more of  Storyteller and a News Monger.  Traveling from place to place passing news and information as he goes about his travels, hoping for tips to survive.  That I would think would make an interesting bard.

probably not.

True, that is the basic concept for being a bard -- however too many rely on spies and secrecy, so I doubt it would ever fly.

[Qzzrbl]

I thought at one point to make a bard that was more of  Storyteller and a News Monger.  Traveling from place to place passing news and information as he goes about his travels, hoping for tips to survive.  That I would think would make an interesting bard.

probably not.

True, that is the basic concept for being a bard -- however too many rely on spies and secrecy, so I doubt it would ever fly.

It is true that many rely on spies to gather news and whatnot.... But what about everyone else that doesn't? It wouldn't be such a bad idea to try and keep the general public in the know.

A good bard would hear a story up north, and put a clever spin on it to make it sound more interesting to southerners, and possibly find a way to make money off of it.

[Synthesis]

I thought at one point to make a bard that was more of  Storyteller and a News Monger.  Traveling from place to place passing news and information as he goes about his travels, hoping for tips to survive.  That I would think would make an interesting bard.

probably not.

True, that is the basic concept for being a bard -- however too many rely on spies and secrecy, so I doubt it would ever fly.

It is true that many rely on spies to gather news and whatnot.... But what about everyone else that doesn't? It wouldn't be such a bad idea to try and keep the general public in the know.

A good bard would hear a story up north, and put a clever spin on it to make it sound more interesting to southerners, and possibly find a way to make money off of it.

Then they would disappear as soon as they returned to Tuluk, because you know, we can't have people spreading rumors about who may or may not have thumbed their nose in the Tooth and stumbled drunkenly to the Sanc shortly thereafter.

[Riev]

I love bards.  I'll definitely play one again, and when I'm able I always tip them when they sing IG. 

This.

Also, don't forget that there are SOME bards out there whose purpose it is to be terrible, or to be "learning". I know that when I -have- attempted a bard, I've been terrible and RPed not being very good strictly because OOCly I cannot handle the rhyming and the dramatic movements and etc etc etc.

The mudslinging, guys, on a thread about bards? Is there a subject where someone -won't- argue just for the sake of argument?

[Lizzie]

I love when people burst out in song in the game. There was a certain half-giant who used to do that all the time. I'd get such a kick out of watching her when she'd do that. Not a big performance, not something that would demand exclusive attention, just..that occasional, spontaneous, burst of roleplayed fun.

On the other hand, when it came time for "bardfests" or "bard contests" or "scheduled RPT performances" I'd need to politely bow out, most of the time. If it doesn't last too long I'm good to go. I remember one time though there was a dance contest and there was so much going on with audience members commenting, and people coming in and out, and refilling drinks, and echoes from spice smoke, and room echoes, that I just couldn't keep track and ended up frustrated rather than entertained. I can't keep up with arena matches in Allanak very well either. I wish I could. But I can't.

[HTX]

Also, don't forget that there are SOME bards out there whose purpose it is to be terrible, or to be "learning".

Yes.

I think some people need to remember that some things can be dealt with ICly, and needs no OOC solution. If the bards are terrible then respond ICly. Hopefully the bard's player will have separated their emotions from their character enough to not take offense.

[Reiloth]

I don't understand why people post when they aren't really answering the thread's question / statement.

For Example:

I think Bards can be the foundation of all Tuluki politics. I think they could even make a dent in Allanaki politics, if played correctly.

As a Noble PC, I supported the Arts in any way shape or form, because every Tuluki should know the Arts seperate the Tuluki from the Allanaki. And its the coolest way to make fun of all your other Noble 'friends' without really being responsible. And when you, the bard, have a super awesome Noble PC backing you, and you are awesome yourself, some of the most fun times in Armageddon can take place. I call attention to the Golden Summer of 2006.

Oh. Tips.

-Don't be great from the get go. It's a learning process, and much more fun for everyone if you start off terrible. Then people can heckle you and call you a twit from the start, and when they see you progress and start winning competitions, they start to get behind you! They want to be your friend! They want to buy you drinks...And then probably kill you.

-Don't go into people's apartments when they claim to be super-fans.

-Don't trust anyone.

-Have plenty of fruit in 2.pack to throw at competition in the Sanctuary.

Now that wasn't hard, was it!

[Reiloth]

I love when people burst out in song in the game. There was a certain half-giant who used to do that all the time. I'd get such a kick out of watching her when she'd do that. Not a big performance, not something that would demand exclusive attention, just..that occasional, spontaneous, burst of roleplayed fun.

On the other hand, when it came time for "bardfests" or "bard contests" or "scheduled RPT performances" I'd need to politely bow out, most of the time. If it doesn't last too long I'm good to go. I remember one time though there was a dance contest and there was so much going on with audience members commenting, and people coming in and out, and refilling drinks, and echoes from spice smoke, and room echoes, that I just couldn't keep track and ended up frustrated rather than entertained. I can't keep up with arena matches in Allanak very well either. I wish I could. But I can't.

I think we all understand Lizzie. You don't like screen scroll, and you can't get behind bards, as much as you wish you could. In a similar light, you wish you could keep up with Arena matches in Allanak, but can't. I think that's a pretty good analogy within the game.

But I suppose the rest of us can discuss what makes bards better, don't y'think? Or should we just focus on why you can't play around bards, or the Arena of Allanak?

[Rairen]

Oh. Tips.

-Don't be great from the get go. It's a learning process, and much more fun for everyone if you start off terrible. Then people can heckle you and call you a twit from the start, and when they see you progress and start winning competitions, they start to get behind you! They want to be your friend! They want to buy you drinks...And then probably kill you.

-Don't go into people's apartments when they claim to be super-fans.

-Don't trust anyone.

-Have plenty of fruit in 2.pack to throw at competition in the Sanctuary.

Now that wasn't hard, was it!

- Don't be above bribing audiences with alcohol.
- Don't neglect performance arts other than signing.
- Don't forget to watch your stun if you Way people while performing. 
- Do use preposterously hilarious puns.
- Do secretly dream of being a rock star
- Don't hesitate to collaborate with your enemies for the sake of a performance

Also, I almost played a bard once based on this concept:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM&feature=PlayList&p=7DE34B7EFE7D5793&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=31

[Gimfalisette]

Do engage your audience in your emoting as you are performing: sing (winking saucily at ~strapping) Blah blah blah stuff that's rhymin', / Blah blah blah with your two-timin'.

Do also use VNPCs in your performances, as audience or co-performer.

Do always have your performance planned out ahead of time so the audience isn't waiting 5 minutes between sing / recite / emote.

Do learn how to properly use the sing and recite commands, with line breaks in the right places.

Do go look up marko's old posts about bards, and my posts about bards...and a lot of other previous threads and posts about bards.

Do ask for further help on barding from me by PM or IM, or probably from other experienced players of bards who have posted here.



Don't not play a bard because some of your fellow players engage in knee-jerk, unhelpful criticism on the GDB.

[Kryos]

It hard when you take something with a natural disconnect and attempt to translate it.  Sounds, sights, and sometimes nuanced behavior is hard to put out in text.  To this end, I think its required that the player base be somewhat indulgent towards those who take on this hefty task.  If you're a bard, its also important to keep this in mind when creating your works.

[Delstro]

I feel strongly that most characters, in Tuluk at least, would be avid fans of the music that bards bring to the taverns and to festivals and gatherings.  Commoners wouldn't get to hear it very many other places. Like someone else said...  Even if you, as a player, despise spammy bards and can't fathom the work the player has put into formatting and composing their songs, chances are that your character just might.  Bards: take your customers with a grain of salt.  Sure, some cultureless commoner swine might up and walk out on your performance, but all it takes is one juicy tip from a noble to make all your hurts go away.  And then you have more fodder for writing songs about cultureless swine.

I love bards.  I'll definitely play one again, and when I'm able I always tip them when they sing IG.  I played a templar whose half-giant guard's knees would go weak when a pretty bard walked into the room.  Even if I, as a player, was too busy to emote my appreciation, my HG definitely did.

I love bards also, but my characters have taste and they enjoy some bard-ery and they dislike some. I would just like to remind people to have tastes and not a general love of all things bard, unless of course, you want to. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing joy/hate.

[Fathi]

This isn't a jibe at anyone in particular, past or present, but I figure I'd throw in my two cents:

It seems like sometimes, you'll get a few bardic PCs all around at the same time who insist on singing a song or doing some sort of performance every time they show up in a tavern. While my characters usually don't mind the ambiance, I think that this is one of the reasons why some players can get easily burnt out on performances. While it isn't necessarily a bad distraction, it is distracting.

I think part of being a good bard player is knowing both IC and OOC when it's good to stir up some action and entertainment... and also knowing that if you do it too often, it will seem less like a special occasion. I've met some great bard PCs in my day that still acted thoroughly bardic and really held up the culture of their respective Circles even when not performing, simply through their exploits or tales or jokes.

[Cutthroat]

Not really tips on making a "better bard", since any bard player that puts in a creative effort is fine by me. But here are some tips on playing a bard you might enjoy more.

Remember, being a bard is not just about singing and playing music. There's storytelling, theatrical performances, and comedy. Think of all the ways these things can be done, and even combined.

About doing bardic things in taverns and other situations - if you want full attention on your performance, say so, like IRL. If you're content with being in the background, that's fine too.

Bards aren't only for Tuluk. They pop up in Allanak, too. If you're an avid Allanak fan but always wanted to try a bard, but don't want to play in Tuluk, there's always the option of playing an Allanaki bard.

"Bard" doesn't have to be your PC's primary profession. You could be a soldier, guard, thief, hunter, crafter, etc. first, and a bard second. This might be harder in some situations than others though.

[LauraMars]

Methyas Groot once had the great idea of doing ongoing performances in Tuluk of Hero vs Villain.  He wore a mask and a southern templar's medallion and robe, and I would wear a mask too, and chase him around the city with a stick.  We would run into the Sanctuary and have mock swordfights on top of the tables while reciting orchestrated lines at each other.

It was fun and it surprised everybody.  I really don't think you'd need to sing a single song as a bard, if you didn't want to.

[Ourla]

Haha, that's so cool, LauraMars.  I wish I could have seen that.  It's a good example of how diverse bards can be.  I had a lot of fun pulling various pranks with my Tuluki Elkinhym, too.

[flurry]

One thing you just have to accept is that not everyone likes bardic roleplay. That's just the way it is. But you can't please everyone with any particular kind of roleplay. Everyone has aspects or styles of roleplay that simply bug them. But for everyone who's ready to walk out on any bard performance, there are surely people ready to walk out on their roleplay, too. Just the way it is.

My best advice for would-be bard characters is that they have a full enough concept that you could enjoy the character even without the bard stuff.  Kind of like people suggest magickers should be a fully realized person apart from the magicking. Same with bards (and, no doubt, lots of other things). Because if the only thing that defines the character is the barding, then you're going to feel much more pressure to perform or present yourself as a bard, all the time. Your character is more likely to seem flat if all anyone associates them with is trying to sing whenever given half a chance.

I was intimidated about playing a bard, but my one attempt at playing a bard is by far my favorite character ever. The bardic aspect was lots of fun, but most of the time it was secondary to everything else going on.

[Akaramu]

Don't just sing. Ask PCs about their lives, gather tales and stories. Play pranks. Tell stories. Perform in other ways. Find ways to incorporate audiences into your performances. Be a gossip.

This. This cannot be stressed enough, and I was reading through post after post waiting for someone to bring it up.

Having played a rather successful Allanaki bard, who even inspired northerners to cheer for him, I'd like to bold, underline and resize the above statement. I didn't even write many songs. Heck, the bard was a lazy ass who loved to -ponder- doing work while slacking away in his favourite hammock and daydreaming about naked tribals. But he was entertaining, no matter if he was actively performing or not, and people loved to be around him.

[lussien]

I'd like to see a bard that causes mischief and plays prank on people.

[musashi]

I'd like to see a bard that causes mischief and plays prank on people.

Yes, very difficult to do, but awesome when pulled off.

[palomar]

I'd like to see a bard that causes mischief and plays prank on people.

Yes, very difficult to do, but awesome when pulled off.

And it does happen. Sometimes it's intentional, sometimes it isn't. Considering how diverse the Circle is, I'm always surprised there aren't more bards around (in general, as there is the occasional influx). Playing a bard is a challenge, but usually well worth the try.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I don't know if I could ever really get into making a circle bard. But I have had a good many 'performing' pcs. I find that it's more interesting to do things other than singing. I've never had one that sung. I mean, I have pcs which sing, but it's rarely in front of other pcs. Stuff like dancing and playing instrumental music and telling tales is much more interesting, IMO.

[Akaramu]

Bard does not equal circle bard.

There are plenty of other bardic concepts that might be fun to play... how about a gritty travelling warrior/bard mercenary for instance?

[Gimfalisette]

Circle bard does not equal not-girtty, only-singing, not-warrior, not-traveling, etc. In fact, travel is required for Circle bards, as is combat, as are performance modes other than singing/playing.

[Akaramu]

It would be nice to see more bards that are just bards and not related to the circle, though. And maybe I've been around at the wrong times, but I've seen very few active bards outside of Tuluk. Especially not in Allanak. And every single one I've seen was upper-class well-spoken and well-mannered.

My next PC will soooooo be a half-giant bard.

[Akaramu]

Darn double post.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I guess what I mean is: I've had about 1/5 of my pcs perform in different ways. And publicly. I don't think that I could make a pc who was mainly a performer, though. Largely due to erratic and offpeak playing times. I've had luck with some who had an equal focus on that in conjunction with other things, but mainly, it's really a lot of work to come up with dozens of unique performances which I, as a player, can see as being worth the cost, especially considering the way the world is 'supposed' to work. I know, I should be turning it out for nobles/templars and suchlike, but I tend not to share playtimes with most of them, and most of my pcs would feel so intimidated by them, they'd tend to avoid them anyhow.


OOOOH, you must. I've seen this done... and when it's done well... I can think of nothing more entertaining than an HG bard.

[tortall]

Well, thing about non-Circle bards in Tuluk... The Circle kinda pressures them into joining a Circle. That's just how it works.


As for Nak, I've attempted to play bard-like characters there. It was never taken well, and most people threw food at me.


That's just my experience though. I know there have been several successful bards in Nak, but for the most part, they do NOT work. At all.

[Synthesis]

Well, thing about non-Circle bards in Tuluk... The Circle kinda pressures them into joining a Circle. That's just how it works.


As for Nak, I've attempted to play bard-like characters there. It was never taken well, and most people threw food at me.


That's just my experience though. I know there have been several successful bards in Nak, but for the most part, they do NOT work. At all.

Throwing of food is considered a compliment in 'nak, isn't it?

I mean, they are all starving to death down there.

[Gimfalisette]

It would be nice to see more bards that are just bards and not related to the circle, though. And maybe I've been around at the wrong times, but I've seen very few active bards outside of Tuluk. Especially not in Allanak. And every single one I've seen was upper-class well-spoken and well-mannered.

My next PC will soooooo be a half-giant bard.

In Tuluk, "bards" should all be of the Circle or in the process of being pressed into the Circle, or they should be laughed at and considered not to be good enough for the Circle. That's the culture there. Tuluki bards (of the Circle) aren't upper-class and shouldn't be thought of that way, because they are just commoners and most have no higher rank than the nearest aide. They don't mostly wear silks, they usually talk just like any other Tuluki does, and usually they're well-mannered because if they're not then some noble or templar (their patron, or someone else's patron) is going to come down on them. Also, bards rely at least in part on tips for their living (or should), and it's hard to get tips if you're not pleasing people.

I've seen half-giant bards of the Circle. (Medena played a good one.) I've seen sneaky elf bards of the Circle. There was a noted, badass Lyksaen-slave warrior bard not long ago. I myself have played bards of the Circle who world-traveled, drank people under the table, swore, got into brawls and fights, and did crime. Of course, it's possible that other players thought my bards were "upper-class well-spoken and well-mannered," but most players don't try to get to know bard PCs, either; so I don't think that's really a fair assessment. Even if those bard PCs are "silky," they may still be fascinating, deep PCs who deserve another look.

Allanak could always use a good bard or two.

[Pheonix]

Next challenge. Play a successful 'Nakki bard.

My two 'sids. Acting is also a thing bards can do. Diplomacy, etiquette, etc, etc. There's a Circle for pretty much everything.

[Akaramu]

Well. When I meant more not-circle bards, I was mainly thinking of active bards in Luir's and Allanak. 

Haven't played in Luir's much though, so I might have missed them.

[Gimfalisette]

I know, I should be turning it out for nobles/templars and suchlike, but I tend not to share playtimes with most of them, and most of my pcs would feel so intimidated by them, they'd tend to avoid them anyhow.

It is an unfortunate misconception that the primary role of bards is to perform for nobles and templars. In Tuluk, bards of the Circle should be used by nobles and templars (their patrons) to entertain, pacify, educate, and politicize the common masses. Bards aren't toys for the upper castes, they are weapons. While a bard may be called on to do a command performance for a noble or templar, or to perform at an event or competition, the bread-and-butter of a bard's existence should be engaging with commoners, talking about current events, gathering information, sowing rumors, telling jokes and stories, educating and guiding, and throwing in the occasional performance which caters to topics commoners enjoy (sex, booze, spice, and murder).

Tuluki bard is, in fact, the ultimate tavern-sitting role if you want to play it that way.

[Niamh]

Well, thing about non-Circle bards in Tuluk... The Circle kinda pressures them into joining a Circle. That's just how it works.


As for Nak, I've attempted to play bard-like characters there. It was never taken well, and most people threw food at me.


That's just my experience though. I know there have been several successful bards in Nak, but for the most part, they do NOT work. At all.

The Circle does not pressure people into joining.  There is social pressure from other sources to join the Circle if the bard wants to gain any sort of respect or status.  Otherwise they're not taken nearly as seriously.

This subject has been brought up before, so I'll reiterate what I said previously.  Bards do work in Allanak, and are totally playable there...provided the bard's entertainment style fits Allanaki social norms for entertainment.  House Fale is well known for their stock of bards and other entertainer types.

[Gimfalisette]

Well. When I meant more not-circle bards, I was mainly thinking of active bards in Luir's and Allanak. 

Yeah, I haven't seen another bard in Nak since yours. So sad. There was a Byn guy who also kind of barded, and he was excellent as well. I do love bards in Allanak. Someone make one that lives and is awesome!

[Zoltan]

The closest I came to barding was with my last combat character. Singing terrible songs and weaving tales of adventure... it made me really interested in going all out on a bard concept someday.

[palomar]

The Circle does not pressure people into joining.  There is social pressure from other sources to join the Circle if the bard wants to gain any sort of respect or status.  Otherwise they're not taken nearly as seriously.

There is also the matter of bardic hotspots and income. In my experience, the Circle will put some pressure (of a social kind mostly) on performers who think they are bards, compete with Circle bards and seem to actually get money off of it. It's not necessarily a pressure to join the Circle, especially if the performers aren't citizens. I suppose it can sometimes be quite a grey area.

[Schrodingers Cat]

Can't bards do other things than sing and play songs?  To me, this becomes tedious quickly.

My favorite bard was an sculptor/painter, storyteller and a historian.  Maybe he was my favorite because he wasn't a performance bard and spent much of his time kicking ass .

[Gimfalisette]

Can't bards do other things than sing and play songs?  To me, this becomes tedious quickly.

My favorite bard was an sculptor/painter, storyteller and a historian.  Maybe he was my favorite because he wasn't a performance bard and spent much of his time kicking ass .

This has already been explicated over and over in this thread. Yes, bards can do all kinds of things. In fact, bards of Poets' Circle must do many kinds of things skillfully in order to advance.

However, the ongoing implication that performance bards necessarily suck and are the worst kinds of bards is starting to make me very, very cranky.

[Gimfalisette]

There is also the matter of bardic hotspots and income. In my experience, the Circle will put some pressure (of a social kind mostly) on performers who think they are bards, compete with Circle bards and seem to actually get money off of it. It's not necessarily a pressure to join the Circle, especially if the performers aren't citizens. I suppose it can sometimes be quite a grey area.

Yeah, what palomar said. No one cares if you're hanging out at the non-tavern-of-the-moment and performing for no tips, but if you're putting yourself in the public eye and taking income and notice away from the recognized bards, then there will be trouble. In Tuluk, conforming to tradition is everything; threatening the traditional social structure will get you disappeared.

This whole thread is making me want to play another Circle bard. My sole complaint about doing so is that there are rarely enough other Circle bards or other competition around for me to PvP against.

[jhunter]

The closest I came was a non-circle street performer that was alot of fun except for Circle bards harrassing me. I was out in the streets and had people gathering around me to watch my various acts. Circle bards in Tuluk openly harrassing me (nothing subtle or Tuluki there) was what ruined the character for me. I would've thought they would have tried to get me into the Circle rather than treat me like dirt because I wasn't part already. Obviously, my pc was a decent performer because several times I would just pick a spot and start performing and pcs would end up gathering. Left a bad taste in my mouth regarding Circle bards though.

Edit: I made an incorrect statement because I misread another post.

[Schrodingers Cat]

Can't bards do other things than sing and play songs?  To me, this becomes tedious quickly.

My favorite bard was an sculptor/painter, storyteller and a historian.  Maybe he was my favorite because he wasn't a performance bard and spent much of his time kicking ass .

This has already been explicated over and over in this thread. Yes, bards can do all kinds of things. In fact, bards of Poets' Circle must do many kinds of things skillfully in order to advance.

However, the ongoing implication that performance bards necessarily suck and are the worst kinds of bards is starting to make me very, very cranky.

Maybe not so much "suck", as unappreciated.  IC performances just don't fit well.  There isn't much interaction to be had in watching someone 'perform' in a series of emotes.  Sure there's a place in Zalanthas for performances, I just think they should be short and sweet, people can acknowledge that they are good/bad/mediocore (which opens up a can of worms when it comes to personal asthetics), and then people can swiftly move along to the murder, corruption, betrayal and other things that people play for.

My point is I wish bards wouldn't highlight this part of being a bard so much, as other aspects of being a bard.

[Gimfalisette]

Then I have to say that I wish players would pay/tip Circle bards for doing things other than performing. Making a living as a dedicated bard can be very, very difficult (especially if you don't know what the hell you're doing in Tuluk)--and everything that a good bard can do for other PCs usually goes unappreciated and unrewarded.

[tortall]

However, the ongoing implication that performance bards necessarily suck and are the worst kinds of bards is starting to make me very, very cranky.

This whole thread is making me want to play another Circle bard. My sole complaint about doing so is that there are rarely enough other Circle bards or other competition around for me to PvP against.

This. I've noticed the hatred of people towards performance bards has caused over half of the bards I've seen in last year to almost NEVER perform. Granted, there may be other reasons, but.... I, personally, enjoy performances.


Note: anyone who has played/is playing one of the non-performance bards, this is NOT an attack at you. This is me stating what -I- think is a reason there have been such a large number of you.

[spawnloser]

Circle bards are less gritty than other bards.  Just because they've got some grit doesn't mean they're as gritty as the rest of the game.  You want to play a gritty, pushed down, spit on bard?  Play a gemmer bard.

[musashi]

A gemmer breed bard.

[Reiloth]

A gemmer breed bard.

A nilazi breed bard.

[Reiloth]

A gemmer breed bard.

A nilazi breed bard.

A nilazi breed bard that smells like persimmons.

[Aaron Goulet]

A gemmer breed bard.

A nilazi breed bard.

A nilazi breed bard that smells like persimmons.

With persimmon-colored hair.

[Zoltan]

Thanks for the help on my next PC, guys!

[Akaramu]

Thanks for the help on my next PC, guys!

Play your current one first, or I'll find and PK you. 

[Zoltan]

Thanks for the help on my next PC, guys!

Play your current one first, or I'll find and PK you. 

*feels warm and fuzzy* One day I may return! Probably! 

[Ourla]

I'd like to see a bard that causes mischief and plays prank on people.

Yes, very difficult to do, but awesome when pulled off.

http://www.armageddon.org/original/showSubmission.php?submission=287